I personally dont feel its a big deal not being able to take down a DC, but the big problem is, the DC keeping the whole team immortal with Astral Shield + Gift (and heals) For this reason, I strongly recommend the max HP absorb effect to be reduced by 50% like healing depressions FOR PVP ONLY.
This is a good point, if there are healing powers and shields and in the end they come a bit to the same, all shields should respect healing depression, and talking about clerics, a problem of righteous clerics is not being able to stay alive for long, why does this "Heals made by a cleric will be 70% more effective on allies" thing exists?
why does this "Heals made by a cleric will be 70% more effective on allies" thing exists?
This exists because back in the day DCs used to INSTEAD have a debuff where they would heal themselves like 50% less or something.
People didnt like the wording of it, so they modified it, so now clerics heal themselves "normal (but they nerfed normal)" but heal everyone else MORE.
They didnt want DC healing power to be as good on themselves as they are to allies - they wanted DCs to require a tank in a sense.
Does that make sense? Its more wording than anything but the end goal is to make DCs not able to heal themsvels as well as they can heal allies.
I like this thread they suggest stuff that will screw gwf in PvE so they can satisfy their PvP needs. And the worst thing about it is that the devs listen to them ignoring the input from PvErs.
With both of them always improving their builds I bet they currently are giving GF's an even harder time. Look at how they outsustain or flat out murder GF's. The GF hate on this thread is real, the title should be changed to "GF nerf request"
Not that it needs to be nerfed, just that other classes need to quit being nerfed and need to be buffed. That is why GF looks so strong, the rest of the classes got whacked too hard with the nerfbat, while GF got buffed and buffed.
mkat what nerf bat exactly did gwf get, knifes ? destro capstone? 30% extra dr while running ?
Dc 30% extra dps ? Hr piercing damage, Cw ingore ten resist list can go on, can we do better then nerf post on this thread and can DEVS plz remove all these silly non topic post plz....
You can't have PVP balance without class balance, just because you do not want to hear that some classes/items need to be nerfed does not mean it is not true. Of course there will be nerfs, and buffs. That is part of the game. GF is not okay in the scheme of things, far from it.
Bis gwf are in the same boat I say they need more balance then Gfs even. Tr is the worst class of them all in pvp they are beyond redicules so are Cws abusing mirage weapons atm also.
Gwf do murder gfs in bis lvl, dc is immortals at bis lvl same as cw 1-1 that is, hell gwfs reg life faster then the best gf can put damage on them,,,
No class can touch a tr but maby a pal and a tr will never ever die unless he screws up or fight 1vs 3-4.
If you want to nerf gfs damage/block sure by all means but be prepared that gwf go the same way....
With both of them always improving their builds I bet they currently are giving GF's an even harder time. Look at how they outsustain or flat out murder GF's. The GF hate on this thread is real, the title should be changed to "GF nerf request"
Lol, I actually have no problem with GFs I stopped playing my bis one a while ago for my DC, but with upcoming mod12 and trs and hrs nerfed, and possibly dcs and pallies getting nerfed, we can't leave out GF. Don't you agree? That also leaves out SW but I'll let pink panther give his suggestions for that.
And also, I posted the videos cause the guy said put saber icy etc against good end game GFs and see the outcome, as if the gwf would always win. It was hard to tell what he meant honestly.
Dubble mark dc buff sure once in a while a IV Gf might hit lucky high damage numbers, fix dubble mark (as it is a bugg) remove dc buffs and Gf bis vs Gwf bis will not end well for the Gf.
But all this is kinda beside the point on this thread and it is getting tiresome to see nerf this nerf that on a thread ment for pvp changes that has nothing to do with class balance.....
Ya whatever they do they have to get away from the two tr two cw and gf/hr team. It isnt even fun when you come across that kind of team.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
FYI, BIS TR on preview server only deals like 30~50K SE damage, HR's damage is also reduced by about 40%. (and this is what Mod12 is like if no further change is made) As those two classes' damage is marginally reduced, they are hardly a threat to DC in the new mod. GWF never really have much chance to kill equally geared/skill DCs, SW/OP/DC has 0 chance to kill DC, CW while they can repel you out of the divine shield, they do not have the DPS to finish a equally geared DC.
So whats left now? GF become the only class that has the CHANCE to kill a DC (and its still VERY HARD on those 210~250K HP DC, considering they have to first bull charge the DC out of the shield, then use the remaining attacks to deal 300k+ damage, why 300k+ damage? because there's almost always GIFT that full heals a DC instantly)
I do not believe lowering the max %HP a Astral Shield can absorb would kill the class, especially with the new change to piercing damage, DC has even less threat than ever. On top of that, what does DC have? Break the Spirit that reduces the target's damage by 40% (which is definitely one of the BEST debuff skills), Gift of Faith (Pretty much gives the whole team 2 life bars), Heals, dodges, team buffs, dodges and insignials heals!
If Astral Shield does not get revised, then a DC will be as good as invincible in the new mod especially if there is no GF from the enemy team, needless to say, they also keep the whole team invincible. I strongly urge anyone that really cares about class balance to really consider this change, but this will definitely bring a better class balance to PvP as a whole. I would really appreciate if @rgutscheradev can look at this proposal from the Overall PvP Class Balance's view and make adjustments as necessary.
This is really looking at it from BiS perspectives of all players.
A new or lesser geared DC does not have many defensive powers. Without shield they are practically useless. A BiS DC is a differenet matter, but so are BiS of any classes.
Reducing the survivability of DCs by nerfing astral shield may make BiS clerics easier to kill for you and other strikers (and GFs of course ... not technically a striker -.-), but will make newer/lesser geared DCs even more dead meat. I see new clerics <10k IL come in with 80-90kHP, they probably don't have the recovery to cast AS as frequently, and definitely do not have the HP to absorb as much damage as a BiS.
This class balancing you are suggesting is only at the top end (BiS level) of things. If you want to make it so that it is more even, then perhaps reduce the recovery of all powers, and recovery/HP/deflect/power stacking. Or someone suggested equalising powers based on IL (which might work). But really, at BiS level, everything is difficult to kill without burst damage.
I think in terms of survivability, planar vitality is a worse culprit. If they keep planar vitality with high deflect characters which heal for 8k HP per successful deflection, then you won't be able to kill anyone with high deflect without said burst damage.
Boons, and every broken thing used by BiS players really needs to be looked at before nerfing a certain class skill.
FYI, BIS TR on preview server only deals like 30~50K SE damage, HR's damage is also reduced by about 40%. (and this is what Mod12 is like if no further change is made) As those two classes' damage is marginally reduced, they are hardly a threat to DC in the new mod. GWF never really have much chance to kill equally geared/skill DCs, SW/OP/DC has 0 chance to kill DC, CW while they can repel you out of the divine shield, they do not have the DPS to finish a equally geared DC.
So whats left now? GF become the only class that has the CHANCE to kill a DC (and its still VERY HARD on those 210~250K HP DC, considering they have to first bull charge the DC out of the shield, then use the remaining attacks to deal 300k+ damage, why 300k+ damage? because there's almost always GIFT that full heals a DC instantly)
I do not believe lowering the max %HP a Astral Shield can absorb would kill the class, especially with the new change to piercing damage, DC has even less threat than ever. On top of that, what does DC have? Break the Spirit that reduces the target's damage by 40% (which is definitely one of the BEST debuff skills), Gift of Faith (Pretty much gives the whole team 2 life bars), Heals, dodges, team buffs, dodges and insignials heals!
If Astral Shield does not get revised, then a DC will be as good as invincible in the new mod especially if there is no GF from the enemy team, needless to say, they also keep the whole team invincible. I strongly urge anyone that really cares about class balance to really consider this change, but this will definitely bring a better class balance to PvP as a whole. I would really appreciate if @rgutscheradev can look at this proposal from the Overall PvP Class Balance's view and make adjustments as necessary.
This is really looking at it from BiS perspectives of all players.
A new or lesser geared DC does not have many defensive powers. Without shield they are practically useless. A BiS DC is a differenet matter, but so are BiS of any classes.
Reducing the survivability of DCs by nerfing astral shield may make BiS clerics easier to kill for you and other strikers (and GFs of course ... not technically a striker -.-), but will make newer/lesser geared DCs even more dead meat. I see new clerics <10 IL come in with 80-90kHP, they probably don't have the recovery to cast AS as frequently, and definitely do not have the HP to absorb as much damage as a BiS.
This class balancing you are suggesting is only at the top end (BiS level) of things. If you want to make it so that it is more even, then perhaps reduce the recovery time of all powers, recovery, HP, deflect, power stacking. Or someone suggested equalising powers based on IL (which might work). But really, at BiS level, everything is difficult to kill without burst damage.
I think in terms of survivability, planar vitality is a worse culprit. If they keep planar vitality with high deflect characters which heal for 8k HP per successful deflection, then you won't be able to kill anyone with high deflect without said burst damage.
Boons, and every broken thing used by BiS players really needs to be looked at before nerfing a certain class skill.</p>
Planar vitality has a 30 sec cooldown according to what dev wrote so ......
Removing stable, sh boon, potions and some form of stat diminish + putting tenacity on players instead of gear would do tons but if you enter pvp with less then half the hp of those that push their hp upward you will suffer more ofc.
I still think devs original post with starting to tune tenacity, arpen, piercing changes etc is on the right track we just have a long way to go but at least together with private/solo queue things are moving in the right direction imo..
Planar vitality has a 30 sec cooldown according to what dev wrote so ......
Removing stable, sh boon, potions and some form of stat diminish + putting tenacity on players instead of gear would do tons but if you enter pvp with less then half the hp of those that push their hp upward you will suffer more ofc.
I still think devs original post with starting to tune tenacity, arpen, piercing changes etc is on the right track we just have a long way to go but at least together with private/solo queue things are moving in the right direction imo..
Planar vitality is 10 second cooldown according to these patch notes.
PVP should have PVP only boons, why are PvE boons coming in to it making everyone have such power creep?
Yes, original post to tune tenacity and arpen, piercing is the right track. Gonna be a big task to change all the things broken to fix pvp to make it great again.
Planar vitality has a 30 sec cooldown according to what dev wrote so ......
Removing stable, sh boon, potions and some form of stat diminish + putting tenacity on players instead of gear would do tons but if you enter pvp with less then half the hp of those that push their hp upward you will suffer more ofc.
I still think devs original post with starting to tune tenacity, arpen, piercing changes etc is on the right track we just have a long way to go but at least together with private/solo queue things are moving in the right direction imo..
Planar vitality is 10 second cooldown according to these patch notes. PVP should have PVP only boons, why are PvE boons coming in to it making everyone have such power creep?
+++ ....if the campain would be playable and if those Boons were not broken like Combat Triage was for the DC.
PVP Sucks anyhow so wtf yall crying for lol, simply put its sucked for the past 2 years plain and simple I stopped PVPing long time ago due to the issues that was seen lol,
it´s broken for more than 2 years imo .... at least it went seriously downhill since 11/14
..so ya know somethings wrong there just got to say way to many buffs working in a weird way when the buffs/dmg should have been more spread ..
Indeed, nerfdiscussions are somehow meaningless bc the biggest part of the problem are buffs in PVE , same as Boons, Pots, silly Insigniaboni, geargap and more in PVP. Impossible to balance arround this, bc 6 month later you start at the same position, too many variables.
Yesterday I run FBI with the "braindead combo" GF/OP/DC + 2xdps (only to beat by GF, OP, 2xDC, 1xDPS). If 2 tanks and 2 supporter combined with one real dps = 4x the damage of a "normal run" (1tank, 1 heal, 3 dps), I get the fealing someone has not done his homework. The balance arround classes, including rework of broken buffs has started ...2 years ago? But it began to struggle and we are nearly at the same position as before (speedrun), because the fixes are not courageous enough against the crying of so many forumguests and the devellopers release more buffs and boons every mod, lol. Not to talk about PVP, wich will go on sucking after this rework, since there is no willing, menpower or courage to do significant changes.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
https://prnt.sc/ft5sfl . IF marks based on this tooltip reduce the enemies damage resistance ( that is different than they take in any case increased damage tooltips like swath of destruction from wizard) even if it stacks with the threatening rush how this affect pvp?
GF vanguard and gf swordmaster their difference is not that gf vanguard has the double mark but he has the trample the fallen increased 20% damage against controled targets.
@mamalion1234 If marks reduce the enemies dr it should be reworked next mod so it doesn't since people will be effected by armor pen so much more you will literally see tanks running around with like 2k armor pen or none at all lol. They already run like 6k now on console and one rotate maxed people lol.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
https://prnt.sc/ft5sfl . IF marks based on this tooltip reduce the enemies damage resistance ( that is different than they take in any case increased damage tooltips like swath of destruction from wizard) even if it stacks with the threatening rush how this affect pvp?
GF vanguard and gf swordmaster their difference is not that gf vanguard has the double mark but he has the trample the fallen increased 20% damage against controled targets.
No wrong! Trample only works against controlled targets hence warroir wrath is mostly used. The reason IV does more damage then SM is dubble mark. You can feat 2% more damage in trample due to offhand bonus but that is it.
Many that has lion use IV build because of the synergy between daily and lion to keep target prone works better for IV + dubble mark trample has nothing to do with it in the majority of cases(for some it might but not for the damage potential).
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited July 2017
@rgutscheradev 1 thing that would really help PVP in general and specially TR's out of heir misery is a fix to cold shoulder, cold shoulder is more or less the same as saying "Personal astral shield", GWF/GF hit by 30k 3 times, they will deal 84k damage, a TR or a trapper hit's 3k 30 times they will deal 30k damage.
@rgutscheradev 1 thing that would really help PVP in general and specially TR's out of heir misery is a fix to cold shoulder, cold shoulder is more or less the same as saying "Personal astral shield", GWF/GF hit by 30k 3 times, they will deal 84k damage, a TR or a trapper hit's 3k 30 times they will deal 30k damage.
Tr need absolutly no help what so ever in pvp before they do something about the cc and survivability Tr has atm. Seeing 4-5 Tr in every dom is more then a proof of how broken that class is atm.
Things like this need to be looked at on a larger scale with class balance in the picture making Tr better without further changes is not a good idea in any form what so ever .....
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@rgutscheradev 1 thing that would really help PVP in general and specially TR's out of heir misery is a fix to cold shoulder, cold shoulder is more or less the same as saying "Personal astral shield", GWF/GF hit by 30k 3 times, they will deal 84k damage, a TR or a trapper hit's 3k 30 times they will deal 30k damage.
Tr need absolutly no help what so ever in pvp before they do something about the cc and survivability Tr has atm. Seeing 4-5 Tr in every dom is more then a proof of how broken that class is atm.
Things like this need to be looked at on a larger scale with class balance in the picture making Tr better without further changes is not a good idea in any form what so ever .....
I'm playing WK with low AP gain, can't see where is this survival and super control you talk about. Beside, this will impact at-will's the most and the only way for a TR to deal any decent damage was so far SE, this change would not make them godly, that's for sure, but would help big time beginners and have less impact on endgame players.
Naturally, many of the super opinionated posters are being totally misleading, play the meta cheesecake class/builds yet go after another class with terrible info! This is why please @rgutscheradev be extremely picky on who to listen to, and only in cases, especially, when there is unanimity.
That being said, the consensus on these matter appear to be saying that -
1. TR and HR are royally screwed by the changes to piercing BUT 2. either class may simply fall into a controller role despite themselves. No one actually wants it but a few biased hardliners seem to be hell-bent on pushing for further nerfs or simply, inaction 3. GF is the number 1 HAMSTER class, being a top controller, dps and tank all at the same time 4. DC adds too much sustain to the entire team with little freedom of choice, i.e. playing another role besides tank/healer
Honestly, my personal biggest concern is only TR. I don't want to be your controller companion, and I don't want to be a stealth troll. I want to have freedom to choose a striker path and have all the ups and downs that entails -- if I have to be killable so be it!
[...] GWF/GF hit by 30k 3 times, they will deal 84k damage, a TR or a trapper hit's 3k 30 times they will deal 30k damage.
The most basic of TR dps is severely penalized and counter intuitive in today's meta. Our at-wills hit for 12x, bleed for 10x, hit for very little very fast. Fire&forget powers Path and Smoke Bomb tick continuously dealing too much CC and measly damage. Smaller more frequent hits only end up to be 0-0-0-0-0 damage or trigger boons proc and insignia healing. One "burst" power that despite having utterly long cooldown is very hard to land, have very low base damage - where at the top of it all - the biggest damage modifier TR has is Stealth is at the same time penalizing because of crit supression, therefore the already low base damage double-dips in layers after layers of mitigation!
What does that leave TR? Dailies that are too exploitable. Courage Breaker and Shocking Execution. Out of the fire into the frying pan, get my drift??
TLDR
Piercing change and base damage increase are the two things we've been wanting to see all along, so changes are in the right direction. Though, nowhere near satisfactory because the counter-intuitiveness comes from class-external factors: crit suppression, overhealing, damage absorption to name a few.
3. GF is the number 1 HAMSTER class, being a top controller, dps and tank all at the same time
3. Tr is the number 1 HAMSTER class, being top controller with endless cc chains unbreakable CB(exept oghma)doing 4 dailies in 1 min easy, unkillable immune to damage and do not have to worrie about either arpen or crit, hence that is why you see 4-5 of them out of 10 in every dom,,
Just one post above you is a good example of why GF is even worse. Just the fact that you're the only GF who has issues vs TR is your own problem. I was never unwilling to admit the core problems with TR cc and piercing -- hence I always played my own build that is just a little subpar and just a little different, as long as I didn't BECOME A PART OF THE PROBLEM. Ever stopped to think that you are?
https://prnt.sc/ft5sfl . IF marks based on this tooltip reduce the enemies damage resistance ( that is different than they take in any case increased damage tooltips like swath of destruction from wizard) even if it stacks with the threatening rush how this affect pvp?
GF vanguard and gf swordmaster their difference is not that gf vanguard has the double mark but he has the trample the fallen increased 20% damage against controled targets.
No wrong! Trample only works against controlled targets hence warroir wrath is mostly used. The reason IV does more damage then SM is dubble mark. You can feat 2% more damage in trample due to offhand bonus but that is it.
Many that has lion use IV build because of the synergy between daily and lion to keep target prone works better for IV + dubble mark trample has nothing to do with it in the majority of cases(for some it might but not for the damage potential).
Just one post above you is a good example of why GF is even worse. Just the fact that you're the only GF who has issues vs TR is your own problem. I was never unwilling to admit the core problems with TR cc and piercing -- hence I always played my own build that is just a little subpar and just a little different, as long as I didn't BECOME A PART OF THE PROBLEM. Ever stopped to think that you are?
Gf even worse ok lets forget.
Tr trolling 4 person on a node with endless cc chains being immortal doing it and that a Gf go down 2-1 same gear skill aboutish.
Lets forget that Tr been trolling exe builds for a couple of year dodge hide rince repeat.
Lets forget that there is twice as many Tr in any game then Gf on average (wonder why doh)
And now the fun part I am the ONLY gf that has problem with Tr bold statement and a lie for personal reasons ......
That beside I play Hr as main (and yes I agree on piercing change its a must) then pal gf and some gwf and sw for fun..
Tr cc and survivability is beoynd any class to the extent that they can not have any offense at the same time as they can be immortal Either sacrifice your overcompensated survivability to gain high damage or be prepared that your damage has to be minimum simple as that.
https://prnt.sc/ft5sfl . IF marks based on this tooltip reduce the enemies damage resistance ( that is different than they take in any case increased damage tooltips like swath of destruction from wizard) even if it stacks with the threatening rush how this affect pvp?
GF vanguard and gf swordmaster their difference is not that gf vanguard has the double mark but he has the trample the fallen increased 20% damage against controled targets.
No wrong! Trample only works against controlled targets hence warroir wrath is mostly used. The reason IV does more damage then SM is dubble mark. You can feat 2% more damage in trample due to offhand bonus but that is it.
Many that has lion use IV build because of the synergy between daily and lion to keep target prone works better for IV + dubble mark trample has nothing to do with it in the majority of cases(for some it might but not for the damage potential).
is very hard to get controlled in pvp?
No but trample dont trigger without target being controlled blocking a couple attacks ensure you have warr wrath stacked avoids the need to have targets under cc.
It is optional, the main reason to stay IV is dubble mark as SM has better utility and better cc option...
Comments
People didnt like the wording of it, so they modified it, so now clerics heal themselves "normal (but they nerfed normal)" but heal everyone else MORE.
They didnt want DC healing power to be as good on themselves as they are to allies - they wanted DCs to require a tank in a sense.
Does that make sense? Its more wording than anything but the end goal is to make DCs not able to heal themsvels as well as they can heal allies.
Nice try, the following 2 videos leave you with no room to argue whatsoever though, yes, about Ryu and Icy themselves.
Ryu
Icy
With both of them always improving their builds I bet they currently are giving GF's an even harder time. Look at how they outsustain or flat out murder GF's. The GF hate on this thread is real, the title should be changed to "GF nerf request"
mkat what nerf bat exactly did gwf get, knifes ? destro capstone? 30% extra dr while running ?
Dc 30% extra dps ? Hr piercing damage, Cw ingore ten resist list can go on, can we do better then nerf post on this thread and can DEVS plz remove all these silly non topic post plz....
Gwf do murder gfs in bis lvl, dc is immortals at bis lvl same as cw 1-1 that is, hell gwfs reg life faster then the best gf can put damage on them,,,
No class can touch a tr but maby a pal and a tr will never ever die unless he screws up or fight 1vs 3-4.
If you want to nerf gfs damage/block sure by all means but be prepared that gwf go the same way....
But all this is kinda beside the point on this thread and it is getting tiresome to see nerf this nerf that on a thread ment for pvp changes that has nothing to do with class balance.....
A new or lesser geared DC does not have many defensive powers. Without shield they are practically useless. A BiS DC is a differenet matter, but so are BiS of any classes.
Reducing the survivability of DCs by nerfing astral shield may make BiS clerics easier to kill for you and other strikers (and GFs of course ... not technically a striker -.-), but will make newer/lesser geared DCs even more dead meat. I see new clerics <10k IL come in with 80-90kHP, they probably don't have the recovery to cast AS as frequently, and definitely do not have the HP to absorb as much damage as a BiS.
This class balancing you are suggesting is only at the top end (BiS level) of things. If you want to make it so that it is more even, then perhaps reduce the recovery of all powers, and recovery/HP/deflect/power stacking. Or someone suggested equalising powers based on IL (which might work). But really, at BiS level, everything is difficult to kill without burst damage.
I think in terms of survivability, planar vitality is a worse culprit. If they keep planar vitality with high deflect characters which heal for 8k HP per successful deflection, then you won't be able to kill anyone with high deflect without said burst damage.
Boons, and every broken thing used by BiS players really needs to be looked at before nerfing a certain class skill.
Removing stable, sh boon, potions and some form of stat diminish + putting tenacity on players instead of gear would do tons but if you enter pvp with less then half the hp of those that push their hp upward you will suffer more ofc.
I still think devs original post with starting to tune tenacity, arpen, piercing changes etc is on the right track we just have a long way to go but at least together with private/solo queue things are moving in the right direction imo..
PVP should have PVP only boons, why are PvE boons coming in to it making everyone have such power creep?
Yes, original post to tune tenacity and arpen, piercing is the right track. Gonna be a big task to change all the things broken to fix pvp to make it great again.
....if the campain would be playable and if those Boons were not broken like Combat Triage was for the DC. it´s broken for more than 2 years imo .... at least it went seriously downhill since 11/14 Indeed, nerfdiscussions are somehow meaningless bc the biggest part of the problem are buffs in PVE , same as Boons, Pots, silly Insigniaboni, geargap and more in PVP.
Impossible to balance arround this, bc 6 month later you start at the same position, too many variables.
Yesterday I run FBI with the "braindead combo" GF/OP/DC + 2xdps (only to beat by GF, OP, 2xDC, 1xDPS).
If 2 tanks and 2 supporter combined with one real dps = 4x the damage of a "normal run" (1tank, 1 heal, 3 dps), I get the fealing someone has not done his homework.
The balance arround classes, including rework of broken buffs has started ...2 years ago? But it began to struggle and we are nearly at the same position as before (speedrun), because the fixes are not courageous enough against the crying of so many forumguests and the devellopers release more buffs and boons every mod, lol.
Not to talk about PVP, wich will go on sucking after this rework, since there is no willing, menpower or courage to do significant changes.
GF vanguard and gf swordmaster their difference is not that gf vanguard has the double mark but he has the trample the fallen increased 20% damage against controled targets.
If marks reduce the enemies dr it should be reworked next mod so it doesn't since people will be effected by armor pen so much more you will literally see tanks running around with like 2k armor pen or none at all lol. They already run like 6k now on console and one rotate maxed people lol.
Many that has lion use IV build because of the synergy between daily and lion to keep target prone works better for IV + dubble mark trample has nothing to do with it in the majority of cases(for some it might but not for the damage potential).
Seeing 4-5 Tr in every dom is more then a proof of how broken that class is atm.
Things like this need to be looked at on a larger scale with class balance in the picture making Tr better without further changes is not a good idea in any form what so ever .....
That being said, the consensus on these matter appear to be saying that -
1. TR and HR are royally screwed by the changes to piercing BUT
2. either class may simply fall into a controller role despite themselves. No one actually wants it but a few biased hardliners seem to be hell-bent on pushing for further nerfs or simply, inaction
3. GF is the number 1 HAMSTER class, being a top controller, dps and tank all at the same time
4. DC adds too much sustain to the entire team with little freedom of choice, i.e. playing another role besides tank/healer
Honestly, my personal biggest concern is only TR. I don't want to be your controller companion, and I don't want to be a stealth troll. I want to have freedom to choose a striker path and have all the ups and downs that entails -- if I have to be killable so be it!
For details sake, this - The most basic of TR dps is severely penalized and counter intuitive in today's meta. Our at-wills hit for 12x, bleed for 10x, hit for very little very fast. Fire&forget powers Path and Smoke Bomb tick continuously dealing too much CC and measly damage. Smaller more frequent hits only end up to be 0-0-0-0-0 damage or trigger boons proc and insignia healing. One "burst" power that despite having utterly long cooldown is very hard to land, have very low base damage - where at the top of it all - the biggest damage modifier TR has is Stealth is at the same time penalizing because of crit supression, therefore the already low base damage double-dips in layers after layers of mitigation!
What does that leave TR? Dailies that are too exploitable. Courage Breaker and Shocking Execution. Out of the fire into the frying pan, get my drift??
TLDR
Piercing change and base damage increase are the two things we've been wanting to see all along, so changes are in the right direction. Though, nowhere near satisfactory because the counter-intuitiveness comes from class-external factors: crit suppression, overhealing, damage absorption to name a few.
can you fix the GF double marks which can stack?
also they ignore tenacity
3. Tr is the number 1 HAMSTER class, being top controller with endless cc chains unbreakable CB(exept oghma)doing 4 dailies in 1 min easy, unkillable immune to damage and do not have to worrie about either arpen or crit, hence that is why you see 4-5 of them out of 10 in every dom,,
Fixed it for you...
Tr trolling 4 person on a node with endless cc chains being immortal doing it and that a Gf go down 2-1 same gear skill aboutish.
Lets forget that Tr been trolling exe builds for a couple of year dodge hide rince repeat.
Lets forget that there is twice as many Tr in any game then Gf on average (wonder why doh)
And now the fun part I am the ONLY gf that has problem with Tr bold statement and a lie for personal reasons ......
That beside I play Hr as main (and yes I agree on piercing change its a must) then pal gf and some gwf and sw for fun..
Tr cc and survivability is beoynd any class to the extent that they can not have any offense at the same time as they can be immortal
Either sacrifice your overcompensated survivability to gain high damage or be prepared that your damage has to be minimum simple as that.
It is optional, the main reason to stay IV is dubble mark as SM has better utility and better cc option...