icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Personally I feel Astral Shield should really be looked into this is the one single encounter that keeps the whole team close to immortal and created tons of 0 kill 0 death matches (CC is also part of the reason, but Dev is already gonna look into that later)
Astral Shield has the following effect
Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.
Divinity: Allies receive Temporary Hit Points. Empowered: Astral Shield now consumes all stacks of Empowered to absorb a fixed amount of Damage on each attack. This absorb is equal to 3% of your maximum Hit Points for each stack consumed.
Rank I: Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.* Rank II: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank III: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank IV: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15%
This skill provides 40%DR, which is fine but the main problem is it also absorbs 3% of your Max HP for each stack consumed, at 3 stacks, it would absorb 9% HP of the DC's Max HP EACH HIT (currently a lot of high end DCs runs at around 210~250K HP, and 9% of that is approximately 19~22K) Which also means, if your at-will, encounters hits less than ~20K damage per hit, you are practically dealing 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 damage.This basically nullifies about ALL at will attacks and on top of that mitigates most of the less bursty classes' attacks (SW is definitely one of the biggest victims to this mechanic).
How long does it take to gain 3 stacks? Approximately 5~10 seconds depends on the DC's recovery.
This also means the DC will almost be able to spam Empowered Astral Shield non-stop (with approximately 2~4 seconds gap time, depending on the DC's recovery, most of the DC will just dodge 1~2 times then its back to Empowered Divine Shield again.)
Currently the only class that has any chance to take down a DC is a GF, because the only way to takedown the DC is to be able to bounce them out of the shield and be able to deliver extremely heavy attacks for the few seconds gap. While CW could push the DC out of the shield, they do not have the DPS to really inflict any significant damage.
What I fear is, with the coming nerf on Piercing Damage, this also means there will be almost NO other class that would have any chance to take down a DC with them spamming Astral Shield 24-7, and for every other classes that does not process the encounter to bounce the DC out of the shield, the DC can practically stay in the Invincible Zone forever.
I personally dont feel its a big deal not being able to take down a DC, but the big problem is, the DC keeping the whole team immortal with Astral Shield + Gift (and heals) For this reason, I strongly recommend the max HP absorb effect to be reduced by 50% like healing depressions FOR PVP ONLY. (which means instead of absorbing 9% of the DC's max HP, absorb it by approximately 4.5%, and that will still nullify approximately 10k damage per hit) however, to compensate for the lowered HP absorbs, I recommend implementing other benefits like increasing Crit Severity by 5/10/15/20% while the person stands within the shield. I believe this change will create better balance for the game and will make a lot of new comers feel more welcomed to PvP. @rgutscheradev Please consider the change to Astral Shield's effect in PvP to create a better balance for all new comers!
Personally I feel Astral Shield should really be looked into this is the one single encounter that keeps the whole team close to immortal and created tons of 0 kill 0 death matches (CC is also part of the reason, but Dev is already gonna look into that later)
Astral Shield has the following effect
Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.
Divinity: Allies receive Temporary Hit Points. Empowered: Astral Shield now consumes all stacks of Empowered to absorb a fixed amount of Damage on each attack. This absorb is equal to 3% of your maximum Hit Points for each stack consumed.
Rank I: Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.* Rank II: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank III: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank IV: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15%
This skill provides 40%DR, which is fine but the main problem is it also absorbs 3% of your Max HP for each stack consumed, at 3 stacks, it would absorb 9% HP of the DC's Max HP EACH HIT (currently a lot of high end DCs runs at around 210~250K HP, and 9% of that is approximately 19~22K) Which also means, if your at-will, encounters hits less than ~20K damage per hit, you are practically dealing 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 damage.This basically nullifies about ALL at will attacks and on top of that mitigates most of the less bursty classes' attacks (SW is definitely one of the biggest victims to this mechanic).
How long does it take to gain 3 stacks? Approximately 5~10 seconds depends on the DC's recovery.
This also means the DC will almost be able to spam Empowered Astral Shield non-stop (with approximately 2~4 seconds gap time, depending on the DC's recovery, most of the DC will just dodge 1~2 times then its back to Empowered Divine Shield again.)
Currently the only class that has any chance to take down a DC is a GF, because the only way to takedown the DC is to be able to bounce them out of the shield and be able to deliver extremely heavy attacks for the few seconds gap. While CW could push the DC out of the shield, they do not have the DPS to really inflict any significant damage.
What I fear is, with the coming nerf on Piercing Damage, this also means there will be almost NO other class that would have any chance to take down a DC with them spamming Astral Shield 24-7, and for every other classes that does not process the encounter to bounce the DC out of the shield, the DC can practically stay in the Invincible Zone forever.
I personally dont feel its a big deal not being able to take down a DC, but the big problem is, the DC keeping the whole team immortal with Astral Shield + Gift (and heals) For this reason, I strongly recommend the max HP absorb effect to be reduced by 50% like healing depressions FOR PVP ONLY. (which means instead of absorbing 9% of the DC's max HP, absorb it by approximately 4.5%, and that will still nullify approximately 10k damage per hit) however, to compensate for the lowered HP absorbs, I recommend implementing other benefits like increasing Crit Severity by 5/10/15/20% while the person stands within the shield. I believe this change will create better balance for the game and will make a lot of new comers feel more welcomed to PvP. @rgutscheradev Please consider the change to Astral Shield's effect in PvP to create a better balance for all new comers!
ONLY the kill is option? I mean pvpers dont 'love" controlers but they can do easily the job against the dc. AND one more thing pvp is not 1vs1 work with your team disable-kill dc. PVP never was and never should be 1vs 1 thing.
@icyphish Ya all these defensive mechanics are crazy even the cw shield is crazy while they are at it they should look at this near permanent guardian fighter shield uptime.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
In general, I hope the developers understand the game well enough to know that a lot of the feedback given in threads like this is less than useless and can be downright misleading. Some of the players posting here have been inactive for years, pretty much.
A lot of the posts here also exhibit typically human conservationist behavior -- people want the game to change for the better, but they don't want to have to change along with that. The things being tuned here are mostly good changes. Piercing damage as it was, was always pretty broken. And Armor Penetration really needed to be retuned because it tended to either not work well enough or at all, or too well on the other end. The response from a lot of players largely seem to be to just tweak the broken toys a little so they can keep doing exactly the same nonsense.
The three classes that provide the most feedback here are all in need of changes, and the direction appears to be appropriate. GWFs are definitely too hard to kill for their damage potential, and are highly mobile on top of that. On the other hand, there's only one viable GWF build, so there's a need to look into internal rebalancing of the paths. TRs, for being a "striker" class, features more defensive layers than pretty much any other class in the game -- good long-term control powers, stealth, long dodges, high foot speed, deflection that's 2-3 times better than other classes, and a built-in cc breaker encounter power. At the other end, they probably inflict too little damage and rely too much on either some extremely annoying powers (Courage Breaker and Smoke Bomb) or on piercing damage which hurts some classes a lot more than others. Combat HRs were likewise abominable in their own ways.
Other classes have broken things too, to some extent even more (particularly GFs), but that's no excuse for not following through on these things. Of course, it would be nice to do a lot more at once, but the things on the table are a step in the right direction.
Other major, generic steps in the right direction would be toning down healing and reducing the massive gear gap that is the largest single factor making PvP inaccessible. The ambition of removing Tenacity entirely is the right thing to do, but the impact of the massive weight of gear, boons, insignia and mount bonuses in general should be curtailed. The combined effects lead to too much potential for stacking things until they become broken.
After that, tune individual classes better according to how those pieces land. So many of the classes do not perform according to their intended role. Tanks inflict massive damage, strikers are the kings of not dying, and so on.
I will say, this post is largely on point. The only thing I largely disagree with would be: "GWFs are definitely too hard to kill for their damage potential, and are highly mobile on top of that."
and I guess its less "disagreement" but more wanting to clarify. GWFs are a very very tough class to balance. They have always been either too good, or not good enough. One of the BIGGEST problems with balancing them has always been (since mod 3) Destroyer Stacks. Not the capstone of the Destroyer tree - but the class feature combined with "Focused Destroyer" feat.
Why has this been a problem? Well, because stacks only last 4 seconds, and you can only gain them from an actual HIT (things like DOTs for whatever reason dont have a chance to proc this) AND in PVP, since you rarely ever get to attack more than 1 enemy, your chance to apply is a limited 25% chance off an actual HIT (again not DOTs).
So in order to get this up, you have to be like white on rice on your target. Now, this normally isnt a BAD thing... Having a stack mechanic LIKE this, however with these three conditions combined: - only procs off actual HITs - 25% chance to proc - Only lasts ~4 seconds
It makes it VERY easy to counter play a GWF and moot their damage out. But you have to KNOW how to counter-play them. So whenever QA teams, or DEVs or even "AVERAGE" players go and play against a "Best in Slot" GWF - they see 1 thing: "hard to kill with high damage potential".
however in actual PREMADE matches, good players know not to let a GWF beat on them for more than a few seconds. They know to dodge or kite the GWF to NOT allow them to build these Destroyer stacks.
So this is what gives a false appearance. Not to mention, the GWF has been artificially propped up since mod 6.
The re-invention of Lifesteal - and the ability to stack it at REALLY high levels combined with Endless consumption COMBINED with the DEVs realizing GWFs damage was poor, thus giving them Hidden Daggers - a 40% damage boost.... All made GWF "viable" again. GWFs never had "self-healing" until the mod 6 change.
So what makes GWF "too hard to kill"? Getting all their +damage bonuses (Daggers+Destroyer+Capstone stacks) AND THEN also stacking VERY high amounts of lifesteal + Endless Consumption (which doubles your lifesteal - ~30% chance to proc and triple your heal = ~roughly doubling your lifesteal on average)
SO..... What does ALL THIS MEAN? - With a VERY geared GWF, they will seem over-tuned against average players, or when you outgear other players. - GWF is fairly easy to "counter play" due to stacks - When a GWF isnt "best in slot" where they DONT have high lifesteal and dont have high damage, they stink. THey are arguably the most gear dependent class in the game.
WHAT SHOULD CHANGE? Pretty simple - without a massive GWF rework mind you. Focused Destroyer is the crux of the issue as well as endless consumption (which SHOULD have been nerfed coming into mod 6 mind you).
Focused Destroyer - needs to have an increased change to apply stacks AND these "destroyer" stacks need to last much longer than 4 seconds. Weapon Master stacks (a similar mechanic) stacks at 100% chance on ANY hit, and lasts ~6 seconds. So this would be a good start. I might even suggest making these Destroyer Stacks last 10 seconds. But LONGER duration on the stacks as well as easier GAIN rate on the stacks is 1 thing that needs to change.
- I would probably look at making it 50% chance to gain off ANY hit (on focused destroyer feat) and make the stacks last ~8-10 seconds. OR you can give focused destroyer 100% chance to gain and put the stack duration at ~6 seconds. Either would work.
THIS WILL MAKE GWF EASIER TO TEST AND BALANCE ACROSS ALL SKILL LEVELS AGAINST ALL OPPONENT SKILL LEVELS
THEN - Nerf Endless Consumption. This boon is just silly frankly... It makes Lifesteal SOOO much better than it should be and provides a significant source of self-healing (a major problem in PVP) to MANY higher DPS classes and its also VERY minimal cost (just 1 boon).
Endless Consumption Should merely increase your lifesteal % CHANCE by about 5%. This actually helps "bridge the gap" between low geared vs higher geared classes. Currently it (again) ~ doubles your lifesteal. Making it a flat 5% chance to lifesteal gives lower geared classes more sources for % chance lifesteal, and at higher levels of gear - % chance lifesteal is already abundant so it may not be needed.
These changes would bring GWF back inline and remove their "burst heals" from Lifesteal+Endless as well as normalize the "GWF experience" across all levels of play - to make it easier to balance in the future.
THESE CHANGES WOULD IMPACT THEIR "TANKINESS" IN PVP BUT GIVE THEM MORE RELIABLE DAMAGE WHICH IS THE DIRECTION THAT THEY NEED TO GO.
So if we reverted back to that, I'm pretty much pushed to go dps as a DC and same for paladins if healing was nerfed and happened every few ticks.
Gotcha.
No - that was to show you the LACK OF SELF HEALING ON DPS CLASSES back in mod 2 days when tenacity first came out. Not classes that have actual HEALING mechanics (BTW paladin wasnt around mod 2 when tenacity came out) but DCs were and they had significant healing!
So its not that "healing was nerfed" the healing was nerfed and is STILL nerfed in pvp (heal depression) but the only SOURCE of self healing was Regen (used to just provide 1 tick every 3 sec in combat) we didnt have crazy lifesteal (because lifesteal worked differently than it did today - you got 100% chance to proc off every hit but your lifesteal % was how much OF each hit was returned as healing and it took a significant amount of lifesteal to get more than like 10%... It wasnt abundant like it is today)
So youve got me all wrong... Healing mechanics still worked fine - but classes like GWF/TR etc. Dont have healing mechanics... They just had "regen"
GWF is not too tanky because it has no block or dodge, and does not have high damage potential in PVP due to lack of Determination or an encounter prone. You can just dodge IBS. It is amusing how people can still be saying GWF is OP with a straight face, it has not been since Mod 3.
Yes that is another reason - they can be rotated due to no i-frames. Although I would disagree with the "damage potential" as I think if you had stacks up much easier, you can actually have "clearing power" but as you know if GWF can more easily obtain damage stacks, its damage would be reliably higher.
GWF relies on Daggers 40% + Capstone 50% (+20% in unstoppable) + Focused DEstroyer's 46% + DOUBLE mark (~32% + CAB) to deal damage. If it doesnt have ALLLLLL of these sources, its damage is HAMSTER... If it DOES have all of these sources... it can deal "Good Damage".
If we want to actually rebalance GWF, I have suggestions for this as well, but this would require a class rework - something I dont think will happen anytime soon, but it would involve removing 40% from daggers, and some of the damage from Focused Destroyer + maybe capstone to INCREASE the BASE DAMAGE of the class, which opens up more encounter options and might even make Sentinel and Instigator relevant again (which they havnt been in YEARS - since mod 2 and even then it was only Sent.)
Anyways, the best mod 12 solution IMO is what I have suggested. - Focused destroyer provides ~50% chance to proc (up from 25%) and increase Destroyers "stack duration" to 10 seconds (up from 4). OR - "focused destroyer provides ~100% chance to proc on any attack, and the stacks last ~6 seconds. Either would work.
- Endless Consumption Nerf. Should provide a fixed % of lifesteal. I am NOT in favor of a mere ICD of like 20 or 30 seconds, it would just make this worthless. I think endless at a fixed 5 lifesteal can help lower geared DPS classes obtain a nice source of lifesteal not reliant on the stat lifesteal. I am open to other options, I just think that would be the easiest and simple. But Endless is just stupid and needs a massive massive tone down... Especially its "burst heal" potential which is HUGE for PVP....
I agree that Astral Shield is probably the dumbest defensive power currently available in Neverwinter pvp, however, the proposed nerf doesn't fix the problem, it just reduces it. The issue is that is blocks a flat amount of damage from every hit. This will always hurt tick based, or rapid attacks more than burst--always. Any attempt to combo or otherwise suppress the shield is just met with more shield. The only way to counter the shield is to stack all of your damage into a single hit to bypass the shield, or knock the DC out of the shield.
A better nerf would be to try and allow repeated attacks to break the shield. This could be done similar to Prophetic Action or Unbreakable Devotion, but with a significantly shorter cooldown (1-3 seconds). It could also potentially be done like Barkshield with diminishing defenses on each hit, but would also need to regenerate much faster. Another solution could be to make it a percentage reduction (like CW and GF shield) to be equally fair to burst and DoT based classes instead of having a shield specifically tailored to counter anyone who doesn't deal all of their damage in a single blow.
Going with ICD it should be more like Warding Flare with 1 sec tics IIRC, but % reduction to be like CW shield is more reasonable. So then it would be like having 9%, or 10% more DR that is unmitigatable from shield rather than having it absorb flat damage. IMO their healing is fine, most of the overhealing comes from items anyway, but if the damage absorb could be toned down a little please that's a huge QOL up for classes like TR and SW... TR only has one burst power SE and that's going away.
The same thing should be done for all damage absorb powers. I'm looking at you OPs.
fine nerf my astral shield just a bit or darths suggestion of repeated attacks to break it. I agree with you guys but before so its time to tone down gf damage.
And buff my dps
{Evil Imp Face} I will gladly accept donations of +30% (more) DPS for clerics by any willing developer
EDIT - why does the evil imp face from the menu display as: >:)
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
0
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
fine nerf my astral shield just a bit or darths suggestion of repeated attacks to break it. I agree with you guys but before so its time to tone down gf damage.
And buff my dps
{Evil Imp Face} I will gladly accept donations of +30% (more) DPS for clerics by any willing developer
EDIT - why does the evil imp face from the menu display as: >:)
Cause Vanilla sucks? Honestly, that's the only reason I can think of.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Personally I feel Astral Shield should really be looked into this is the one single encounter that keeps the whole team close to immortal and created tons of 0 kill 0 death matches (CC is also part of the reason, but Dev is already gonna look into that later)
Astral Shield has the following effect
Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.
Divinity: Allies receive Temporary Hit Points. Empowered: Astral Shield now consumes all stacks of Empowered to absorb a fixed amount of Damage on each attack. This absorb is equal to 3% of your maximum Hit Points for each stack consumed.
Rank I: Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.* Rank II: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank III: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank IV: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15%
This skill provides 40%DR, which is fine but the main problem is it also absorbs 3% of your Max HP for each stack consumed, at 3 stacks, it would absorb 9% HP of the DC's Max HP EACH HIT (currently a lot of high end DCs runs at around 210~250K HP, and 9% of that is approximately 19~22K) Which also means, if your at-will, encounters hits less than ~20K damage per hit, you are practically dealing 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 damage.This basically nullifies about ALL at will attacks and on top of that mitigates most of the less bursty classes' attacks (SW is definitely one of the biggest victims to this mechanic).
How long does it take to gain 3 stacks? Approximately 5~10 seconds depends on the DC's recovery.
This also means the DC will almost be able to spam Empowered Astral Shield non-stop (with approximately 2~4 seconds gap time, depending on the DC's recovery, most of the DC will just dodge 1~2 times then its back to Empowered Divine Shield again.)
Currently the only class that has any chance to take down a DC is a GF, because the only way to takedown the DC is to be able to bounce them out of the shield and be able to deliver extremely heavy attacks for the few seconds gap. While CW could push the DC out of the shield, they do not have the DPS to really inflict any significant damage.
What I fear is, with the coming nerf on Piercing Damage, this also means there will be almost NO other class that would have any chance to take down a DC with them spamming Astral Shield 24-7, and for every other classes that does not process the encounter to bounce the DC out of the shield, the DC can practically stay in the Invincible Zone forever.
I personally dont feel its a big deal not being able to take down a DC, but the big problem is, the DC keeping the whole team immortal with Astral Shield + Gift (and heals) For this reason, I strongly recommend the max HP absorb effect to be reduced by 50% like healing depressions FOR PVP ONLY. (which means instead of absorbing 9% of the DC's max HP, absorb it by approximately 4.5%, and that will still nullify approximately 10k damage per hit) however, to compensate for the lowered HP absorbs, I recommend implementing other benefits like increasing Crit Severity by 5/10/15/20% while the person stands within the shield. I believe this change will create better balance for the game and will make a lot of new comers feel more welcomed to PvP. @rgutscheradev Please consider the change to Astral Shield's effect in PvP to create a better balance for all new comers!
I disagree.
This is basically a nerf DC skill with no look at balancing the classes, please do not do this (and break a class) @rgutscheradev.
You must consider this from a DCs perspective, outside of their shield, they will be one-rotated or stun-locked (if they don't have TEB) by many classes.
A cleric outside his/her shield in PvP can expect to be: - One shot by TRs (some TRs can even one-shot in an empowered x3 astral shield) - Dazed and killed/SE'd by TRs - One-rotated by GFS - One or two-rotated by GWFs - Root locked and bled by HRs - Stun locked or repelled/prone/frozen and killed by CWs - Killed by DoTs by SWs - Killed by BG+AoC procs from OPs
Without astral shield, clerics will be dead meat. I am sorry, but your post is very biased against DCs without looking at any balance for other classes and is self-preserving for your own class.
The GWF is quite balanced. It just needs a block, a shield, or an immunity frame on Sprint. Other classes have them, it is high time GWF gets one.
That and make our sprint mechanic make us move faster when we are cbed just like other classes can roll/slide while they are CBed. Right now its horrible and is pretty much a death sentence for us to be cbed.
Post edited by trentbail21 on
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
I will say, this post is largely on point. The only thing I largely disagree with would be: "GWFs are definitely too hard to kill for their damage potential, and are highly mobile on top of that."
Yes, well, I'm pretty well aware of what GWF weaknesses and strengths are. One of the things here is that, especially in a premade environment, you can't just look at the GWF mechanics on their own either, because they will have teammates that can help with offsetting some of their weaknesses. (Just like every other class.) And most of all, they have very good mobility, which is key to holding nodes.
As for being too hard to kill, the problem is that they can stack DR that's exceptionally high, decent deflection, on top of all the self-healing, and the life steal which is proportional to their damage output (which is one of the hamstered-up things about GWFs in that they get a sort of multiplier effect in general, making them a very gear-dependent class that gets relatively better with more gear compared to other classes), and if all else fails, they're one of the better chicken-runner classes (only TRs are really better). The initially proposed changes to armor penetration were clearly too much. On the other hand, the changes to piercing damage will basically nullify what has been their main vulnerability since forever and a half, which should hopefully stop certain trolls' insistence on a dodge mechanic being added.
The way I see it, the main thing is that self-healing is what needs to be toned down, because that is what is preventing classes and builds that do less damage per hit from being effective. Life steal is a huge culprit, but passive sources of healing are even more so.
In terms of internal class balance, it's true that Destroyers need to get more reliable and consistent damage, but they should also be squishier. Sentinels need a bit more base damage, but they should be very noticeably tankier than Destroyers. Basically, I think the base damage of GWFs should be higher, and the circumstantial multipliers they can pile up should be lower. Of course, that would also make the difference between relatively (for a fairly simple game) skillful play and button-mashing be reduced a bit.
GWFs are pretty close to being reasonably balanced currently, the main issue is basically that they benefit relatively more from certain mechanics than other classes do.
So it seems we largely agree then? Nerf Endless Consumption, and modify/buff focused destroyer so its easier to gain and retain stacks. Overall more reliable damage and nerfed self healing. Boom. Done.
As to the premade situation. I dont disagree completely, however there are several other classes that dont have to rely as much on other classes to plug their gaps. Right now, there isnt much reason to take a GWF in a premade when other classes have similar "clear power" without the weaknesses of the unreliable stacking.
I dont disagree though, self healing too high in general, especially with lifesteal because more damage = more healing... Reminds me a little of the old school Tenebrous where more HP = more damage. A defensive thing scaling off an offensive one... or in Tenebrous case an offensive thing scaling off a defensive one. usually not the best.
But anyways seems like we agree then?
2
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Personally I feel Astral Shield should really be looked into this is the one single encounter that keeps the whole team close to immortal and created tons of 0 kill 0 death matches (CC is also part of the reason, but Dev is already gonna look into that later)
Astral Shield has the following effect
Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.
Divinity: Allies receive Temporary Hit Points. Empowered: Astral Shield now consumes all stacks of Empowered to absorb a fixed amount of Damage on each attack. This absorb is equal to 3% of your maximum Hit Points for each stack consumed.
Rank I: Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.* Rank II: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank III: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15% Rank IV: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15%
This skill provides 40%DR, which is fine but the main problem is it also absorbs 3% of your Max HP for each stack consumed, at 3 stacks, it would absorb 9% HP of the DC's Max HP EACH HIT (currently a lot of high end DCs runs at around 210~250K HP, and 9% of that is approximately 19~22K) Which also means, if your at-will, encounters hits less than ~20K damage per hit, you are practically dealing 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 damage.This basically nullifies about ALL at will attacks and on top of that mitigates most of the less bursty classes' attacks (SW is definitely one of the biggest victims to this mechanic).
How long does it take to gain 3 stacks? Approximately 5~10 seconds depends on the DC's recovery.
This also means the DC will almost be able to spam Empowered Astral Shield non-stop (with approximately 2~4 seconds gap time, depending on the DC's recovery, most of the DC will just dodge 1~2 times then its back to Empowered Divine Shield again.)
Currently the only class that has any chance to take down a DC is a GF, because the only way to takedown the DC is to be able to bounce them out of the shield and be able to deliver extremely heavy attacks for the few seconds gap. While CW could push the DC out of the shield, they do not have the DPS to really inflict any significant damage.
What I fear is, with the coming nerf on Piercing Damage, this also means there will be almost NO other class that would have any chance to take down a DC with them spamming Astral Shield 24-7, and for every other classes that does not process the encounter to bounce the DC out of the shield, the DC can practically stay in the Invincible Zone forever.
I personally dont feel its a big deal not being able to take down a DC, but the big problem is, the DC keeping the whole team immortal with Astral Shield + Gift (and heals) For this reason, I strongly recommend the max HP absorb effect to be reduced by 50% like healing depressions FOR PVP ONLY. (which means instead of absorbing 9% of the DC's max HP, absorb it by approximately 4.5%, and that will still nullify approximately 10k damage per hit) however, to compensate for the lowered HP absorbs, I recommend implementing other benefits like increasing Crit Severity by 5/10/15/20% while the person stands within the shield. I believe this change will create better balance for the game and will make a lot of new comers feel more welcomed to PvP. @rgutscheradev Please consider the change to Astral Shield's effect in PvP to create a better balance for all new comers!
I disagree.
This is basically a nerf DC skill with no look at balancing the classes, please do not do this (and break a class) @rgutscheradev.
You must consider this from a DCs perspective, outside of their shield, they will be one-rotated or stun-locked (if they don't have TEB) by many classes.
A cleric outside his/her shield in PvP can expect to be: - One shot by TRs (some TRs can even one-shot in an empowered x3 astral shield) - Dazed and killed/SE'd by TRs - One-rotated by GFS - One or two-rotated by GWFs - Root locked and bled by HRs - Stun locked or repelled/prone/frozen and killed by CWs - Killed by DoTs by SWs - Killed by BG+AoC procs from OPs
Without astral shield, clerics will be dead meat. I am sorry, but your post is very biased against DCs without looking at any balance for other classes and is self-preserving for your own class.
FYI, BIS TR on preview server only deals like 30~50K SE damage, HR's damage is also reduced by about 40%. (and this is what Mod12 is like if no further change is made) As those two classes' damage is marginally reduced, they are hardly a threat to DC in the new mod. GWF never really have much chance to kill equally geared/skill DCs, SW/OP/DC has 0 chance to kill DC, CW while they can repel you out of the divine shield, they do not have the DPS to finish a equally geared DC.
So whats left now? GF become the only class that has the CHANCE to kill a DC (and its still VERY HARD on those 210~250K HP DC, considering they have to first bull charge the DC out of the shield, then use the remaining attacks to deal 300k+ damage, why 300k+ damage? because there's almost always GIFT that full heals a DC instantly)
I do not believe lowering the max %HP a Astral Shield can absorb would kill the class, especially with the new change to piercing damage, DC has even less threat than ever. On top of that, what does DC have? Break the Spirit that reduces the target's damage by 40% (which is definitely one of the BEST debuff skills), Gift of Faith (Pretty much gives the whole team 2 life bars), Heals, dodges, team buffs, dodges and insignials heals!
If Astral Shield does not get revised, then a DC will be as good as invincible in the new mod especially if there is no GF from the enemy team, needless to say, they also keep the whole team invincible. I strongly urge anyone that really cares about class balance to really consider this change, but this will definitely bring a better class balance to PvP as a whole. I would really appreciate if @rgutscheradev can look at this proposal from the Overall PvP Class Balance's view and make adjustments as necessary.
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited July 2017
Disable mounts insignias from pvp or add back the companion bonuses. Too much imbalance with the companions and mount insignias bonuses stayed why? I SEE nerf requests for class powers but items are ok. ANyway the above.
Just make the GWF the undisputed rightful king of DPS and you will have your dc killers just like its supposed to be you know with the biggest weapon in the game and no ability to really block incoming damage you would thing we would do the most when it comes to close range melee. But no the dude with the shield has to do more for some reason..
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
"Bridle the horse from behind" by searching for halfbaked compromises.
Remove the sources for broken PVP first and afterwards start balancing of classpowers and you get where you want automatically. Otherwise this is an endless circle of disbalance and frustration.
Just make the GWF the undisputed rightful king of DPS and you will have your dc killers just like its supposed to be you know with the biggest weapon in the game and no ability to really block incoming damage you would thing we would do the most when it comes to close range melee. But no the dude with the shield has to do more for some reason..
I think you missed the point of this thread is it your 10th+ post about nerfing Gf.
Set up a fight between Saber, Icy, Mangroth etc between any top Gf and let me know how it ends mkay.
Gwf need(ed) a dodge against exe sure, Gwf may the most gear depended class in NW (sw would not be far behind) but once you reach the high end gear Gwf need no love once piercing changes go live.
Devs can you PLZ clear this thread of NERF this NERF that and keep it at how to improve pvp and the testing being done at preview.
It is getting impossible to go through this thread with all non related posts.
Is it possible to get the player based pvp stat instead of gear to or under mod 12 ?
Can you look to move crit reduction to crit severity instead as suggested by many in this thread?
Is it possible to speed up some form of cc resitance so you that you will not be cced endlessly?
Is it possible to look at CB, example unstoppable will remove it?
Is it possible to implement some form of idc on dailies in pvp 1 min at least?
Any dev that can take time to answer this before mod 12 goes live would be very much appeciated ...
My biggest problem with Astral Shield, as a TR not built for one shots (or even let's pretend I was--DC is by far the 2nd hardest target to land a proper SE--the 1st being another TR) ...
Is that the damage absorb mechanic of AS trivializes my damage to 0-0-0-0-0-0. I can only imagine what it is like for SW. Post-piercing nerf, HR nor TR don't have the clearing power to one-rotate a DC. So if you're unwilling to admit this is a bs mechanic, at least make it so only YOU the DC benefit from that absorb and not your ENTIRE team.
My biggest problem with Astral Shield, as a TR not built for one shots (or even let's pretend I was--DC is by far the 2nd hardest target to land a proper SE--the 1st being another TR) ...
Is that the damage absorb mechanic of AS trivializes my damage to 0-0-0-0-0-0. I can only imagine what it is like for SW. Post-piercing nerf, HR nor TR don't have the clearing power to one-rotate a DC. So if you're unwilling to admit this is a bs mechanic, at least make it so only YOU the DC benefit from that absorb and not your ENTIRE team.
It simply was never tested or made for PVP, like tons of other stuff. I guess the best setup against a DC is another DC or a "repel-machine"
Comments
Astral Shield has the following effect
Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.
Divinity: Allies receive Temporary Hit Points.
Empowered: Astral Shield now consumes all stacks of Empowered to absorb a fixed amount of Damage on each attack. This absorb is equal to 3% of your maximum Hit Points for each stack consumed.
Rank I: Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.*
Rank II: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15%
Rank III: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15%
Rank IV: Damage Resist Buff +10%, Temporary Hit Points +15%
This skill provides 40%DR, which is fine but the main problem is it also absorbs 3% of your Max HP for each stack consumed, at 3 stacks, it would absorb 9% HP of the DC's Max HP EACH HIT (currently a lot of high end DCs runs at around 210~250K HP, and 9% of that is approximately 19~22K) Which also means, if your at-will, encounters hits less than ~20K damage per hit, you are practically dealing 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 damage.This basically nullifies about ALL at will attacks and on top of that mitigates most of the less bursty classes' attacks (SW is definitely one of the biggest victims to this mechanic).
How long does it take to gain 3 stacks? Approximately 5~10 seconds depends on the DC's recovery.
This also means the DC will almost be able to spam Empowered Astral Shield non-stop (with approximately 2~4 seconds gap time, depending on the DC's recovery, most of the DC will just dodge 1~2 times then its back to Empowered Divine Shield again.)
Currently the only class that has any chance to take down a DC is a GF, because the only way to takedown the DC is to be able to bounce them out of the shield and be able to deliver extremely heavy attacks for the few seconds gap. While CW could push the DC out of the shield, they do not have the DPS to really inflict any significant damage.
What I fear is, with the coming nerf on Piercing Damage, this also means there will be almost NO other class that would have any chance to take down a DC with them spamming Astral Shield 24-7, and for every other classes that does not process the encounter to bounce the DC out of the shield, the DC can practically stay in the Invincible Zone forever.
I personally dont feel its a big deal not being able to take down a DC, but the big problem is, the DC keeping the whole team immortal with Astral Shield + Gift (and heals) For this reason, I strongly recommend the max HP absorb effect to be reduced by 50% like healing depressions FOR PVP ONLY. (which means instead of absorbing 9% of the DC's max HP, absorb it by approximately 4.5%, and that will still nullify approximately 10k damage per hit) however, to compensate for the lowered HP absorbs, I recommend implementing other benefits like increasing Crit Severity by 5/10/15/20% while the person stands within the shield. I believe this change will create better balance for the game and will make a lot of new comers feel more welcomed to PvP. @rgutscheradev Please consider the change to Astral Shield's effect in PvP to create a better balance for all new comers!
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
AND one more thing pvp is not 1vs1 work with your team disable-kill dc.
PVP never was and never should be 1vs 1 thing.
"GWFs are definitely too hard to kill for their damage potential, and are highly mobile on top of that."
and I guess its less "disagreement" but more wanting to clarify. GWFs are a very very tough class to balance. They have always been either too good, or not good enough. One of the BIGGEST problems with balancing them has always been (since mod 3) Destroyer Stacks. Not the capstone of the Destroyer tree - but the class feature combined with "Focused Destroyer" feat.
Why has this been a problem? Well, because stacks only last 4 seconds, and you can only gain them from an actual HIT (things like DOTs for whatever reason dont have a chance to proc this) AND in PVP, since you rarely ever get to attack more than 1 enemy, your chance to apply is a limited 25% chance off an actual HIT (again not DOTs).
So in order to get this up, you have to be like white on rice on your target. Now, this normally isnt a BAD thing... Having a stack mechanic LIKE this, however with these three conditions combined:
- only procs off actual HITs
- 25% chance to proc
- Only lasts ~4 seconds
It makes it VERY easy to counter play a GWF and moot their damage out. But you have to KNOW how to counter-play them. So whenever QA teams, or DEVs or even "AVERAGE" players go and play against a "Best in Slot" GWF - they see 1 thing: "hard to kill with high damage potential".
however in actual PREMADE matches, good players know not to let a GWF beat on them for more than a few seconds. They know to dodge or kite the GWF to NOT allow them to build these Destroyer stacks.
So this is what gives a false appearance. Not to mention, the GWF has been artificially propped up since mod 6.
The re-invention of Lifesteal - and the ability to stack it at REALLY high levels combined with Endless consumption COMBINED with the DEVs realizing GWFs damage was poor, thus giving them Hidden Daggers - a 40% damage boost.... All made GWF "viable" again. GWFs never had "self-healing" until the mod 6 change.
So what makes GWF "too hard to kill"? Getting all their +damage bonuses (Daggers+Destroyer+Capstone stacks) AND THEN also stacking VERY high amounts of lifesteal + Endless Consumption (which doubles your lifesteal - ~30% chance to proc and triple your heal = ~roughly doubling your lifesteal on average)
SO..... What does ALL THIS MEAN?
- With a VERY geared GWF, they will seem over-tuned against average players, or when you outgear other players.
- GWF is fairly easy to "counter play" due to stacks
- When a GWF isnt "best in slot" where they DONT have high lifesteal and dont have high damage, they stink. THey are arguably the most gear dependent class in the game.
WHAT SHOULD CHANGE?
Pretty simple - without a massive GWF rework mind you. Focused Destroyer is the crux of the issue as well as endless consumption (which SHOULD have been nerfed coming into mod 6 mind you).
Focused Destroyer - needs to have an increased change to apply stacks AND these "destroyer" stacks need to last much longer than 4 seconds. Weapon Master stacks (a similar mechanic) stacks at 100% chance on ANY hit, and lasts ~6 seconds. So this would be a good start. I might even suggest making these Destroyer Stacks last 10 seconds. But LONGER duration on the stacks as well as easier GAIN rate on the stacks is 1 thing that needs to change.
- I would probably look at making it 50% chance to gain off ANY hit (on focused destroyer feat) and make the stacks last ~8-10 seconds. OR you can give focused destroyer 100% chance to gain and put the stack duration at ~6 seconds. Either would work.
THIS WILL MAKE GWF EASIER TO TEST AND BALANCE ACROSS ALL SKILL LEVELS AGAINST ALL OPPONENT SKILL LEVELS
THEN - Nerf Endless Consumption. This boon is just silly frankly... It makes Lifesteal SOOO much better than it should be and provides a significant source of self-healing (a major problem in PVP) to MANY higher DPS classes and its also VERY minimal cost (just 1 boon).
Endless Consumption Should merely increase your lifesteal % CHANCE by about 5%. This actually helps "bridge the gap" between low geared vs higher geared classes. Currently it (again) ~ doubles your lifesteal. Making it a flat 5% chance to lifesteal gives lower geared classes more sources for % chance lifesteal, and at higher levels of gear - % chance lifesteal is already abundant so it may not be needed.
These changes would bring GWF back inline and remove their "burst heals" from Lifesteal+Endless as well as normalize the "GWF experience" across all levels of play - to make it easier to balance in the future.
THESE CHANGES WOULD IMPACT THEIR "TANKINESS" IN PVP BUT GIVE THEM MORE RELIABLE DAMAGE WHICH IS THE DIRECTION THAT THEY NEED TO GO.
So its not that "healing was nerfed" the healing was nerfed and is STILL nerfed in pvp (heal depression) but the only SOURCE of self healing was Regen (used to just provide 1 tick every 3 sec in combat) we didnt have crazy lifesteal (because lifesteal worked differently than it did today - you got 100% chance to proc off every hit but your lifesteal % was how much OF each hit was returned as healing and it took a significant amount of lifesteal to get more than like 10%... It wasnt abundant like it is today)
So youve got me all wrong... Healing mechanics still worked fine - but classes like GWF/TR etc. Dont have healing mechanics... They just had "regen"
GWF relies on Daggers 40% + Capstone 50% (+20% in unstoppable) + Focused DEstroyer's 46% + DOUBLE mark (~32% + CAB) to deal damage. If it doesnt have ALLLLLL of these sources, its damage is HAMSTER... If it DOES have all of these sources... it can deal "Good Damage".
If we want to actually rebalance GWF, I have suggestions for this as well, but this would require a class rework - something I dont think will happen anytime soon, but it would involve removing 40% from daggers, and some of the damage from Focused Destroyer + maybe capstone to INCREASE the BASE DAMAGE of the class, which opens up more encounter options and might even make Sentinel and Instigator relevant again (which they havnt been in YEARS - since mod 2 and even then it was only Sent.)
Anyways, the best mod 12 solution IMO is what I have suggested.
- Focused destroyer provides ~50% chance to proc (up from 25%) and increase Destroyers "stack duration" to 10 seconds (up from 4). OR - "focused destroyer provides ~100% chance to proc on any attack, and the stacks last ~6 seconds. Either would work.
- Endless Consumption Nerf. Should provide a fixed % of lifesteal. I am NOT in favor of a mere ICD of like 20 or 30 seconds, it would just make this worthless. I think endless at a fixed 5 lifesteal can help lower geared DPS classes obtain a nice source of lifesteal not reliant on the stat lifesteal. I am open to other options, I just think that would be the easiest and simple. But Endless is just stupid and needs a massive massive tone down... Especially its "burst heal" potential which is HUGE for PVP....
A better nerf would be to try and allow repeated attacks to break the shield. This could be done similar to Prophetic Action or Unbreakable Devotion, but with a significantly shorter cooldown (1-3 seconds). It could also potentially be done like Barkshield with diminishing defenses on each hit, but would also need to regenerate much faster. Another solution could be to make it a percentage reduction (like CW and GF shield) to be equally fair to burst and DoT based classes instead of having a shield specifically tailored to counter anyone who doesn't deal all of their damage in a single blow.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
The same thing should be done for all damage absorb powers. I'm looking at you OPs.
EDIT - why does the evil imp face from the menu display as: >:)
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
This is basically a nerf DC skill with no look at balancing the classes, please do not do this (and break a class) @rgutscheradev.
You must consider this from a DCs perspective, outside of their shield, they will be one-rotated or stun-locked (if they don't have TEB) by many classes.
A cleric outside his/her shield in PvP can expect to be:
- One shot by TRs (some TRs can even one-shot in an empowered x3 astral shield)
- Dazed and killed/SE'd by TRs
- One-rotated by GFS
- One or two-rotated by GWFs
- Root locked and bled by HRs
- Stun locked or repelled/prone/frozen and killed by CWs
- Killed by DoTs by SWs
- Killed by BG+AoC procs from OPs
Without astral shield, clerics will be dead meat. I am sorry, but your post is very biased against DCs without looking at any balance for other classes and is self-preserving for your own class.
As to the premade situation. I dont disagree completely, however there are several other classes that dont have to rely as much on other classes to plug their gaps. Right now, there isnt much reason to take a GWF in a premade when other classes have similar "clear power" without the weaknesses of the unreliable stacking.
I dont disagree though, self healing too high in general, especially with lifesteal because more damage = more healing... Reminds me a little of the old school Tenebrous where more HP = more damage. A defensive thing scaling off an offensive one... or in Tenebrous case an offensive thing scaling off a defensive one. usually not the best.
But anyways seems like we agree then?
So whats left now? GF become the only class that has the CHANCE to kill a DC (and its still VERY HARD on those 210~250K HP DC, considering they have to first bull charge the DC out of the shield, then use the remaining attacks to deal 300k+ damage, why 300k+ damage? because there's almost always GIFT that full heals a DC instantly)
I do not believe lowering the max %HP a Astral Shield can absorb would kill the class, especially with the new change to piercing damage, DC has even less threat than ever. On top of that, what does DC have? Break the Spirit that reduces the target's damage by 40% (which is definitely one of the BEST debuff skills), Gift of Faith (Pretty much gives the whole team 2 life bars), Heals, dodges, team buffs, dodges and insignials heals!
If Astral Shield does not get revised, then a DC will be as good as invincible in the new mod especially if there is no GF from the enemy team, needless to say, they also keep the whole team invincible. I strongly urge anyone that really cares about class balance to really consider this change, but this will definitely bring a better class balance to PvP as a whole. I would really appreciate if @rgutscheradev can look at this proposal from the Overall PvP Class Balance's view and make adjustments as necessary.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I SEE nerf requests for class powers but items are ok. ANyway the above.
Just make the GWF the undisputed rightful king of DPS and you will have your dc killers just like its supposed to be you know with the biggest weapon in the game and no ability to really block incoming damage you would thing we would do the most when it comes to close range melee. But no the dude with the shield has to do more for some reason..
@icyphish
Remove the sources for broken PVP first and afterwards start balancing of classpowers and you get where you want automatically.
Otherwise this is an endless circle of disbalance and frustration.
Set up a fight between Saber, Icy, Mangroth etc between any top Gf and let me know how it ends mkay.
Gwf need(ed) a dodge against exe sure, Gwf may the most gear depended class in NW (sw would not be far behind) but once you reach the high end gear Gwf need no love once piercing changes go live.
Devs can you PLZ clear this thread of NERF this NERF that and keep it at how to improve pvp and the testing being done at preview.
It is getting impossible to go through this thread with all non related posts.
Is it possible to get the player based pvp stat instead of gear to or under mod 12 ?
Can you look to move crit reduction to crit severity instead as suggested by many in this thread?
Is it possible to speed up some form of cc resitance so you that you will not be cced endlessly?
Is it possible to look at CB, example unstoppable will remove it?
Is it possible to implement some form of idc on dailies in pvp 1 min at least?
Any dev that can take time to answer this before mod 12 goes live would be very much appeciated ...
Is that the damage absorb mechanic of AS trivializes my damage to 0-0-0-0-0-0. I can only imagine what it is like for SW. Post-piercing nerf, HR nor TR don't have the clearing power to one-rotate a DC. So if you're unwilling to admit this is a bs mechanic, at least make it so only YOU the DC benefit from that absorb and not your ENTIRE team.