16 Minute CN Buff Run

mebengalsfan

I recently ran CN on my GF with a full buff / debuff group. Everyone was setup to buff/debuff the mobs and bosses.

Healadin
CW - MoF Renegade
SW - Tempt. Build
GF - Tac Build
DC - AC Build

We all used various companions that buff or debuff the group. Time for run was around 16 minutes. Not bad considering not a single players was setup for pure DPS.

For those that state Pally's do not provide power, I get around 25% boost in my power from the pally I was running with and we all know a DC with AA can boost it around 55%.

I really like this setup. No wipes and it was one of the cleanest runs I have seen in CN.

The SW of course was top DPS but Pillar of Power helped all players out for additional buffing. The DC and Pally's basically focused on buffing and debuffing as the SW did the healing.

I say DPS are the most seen class but I have ran plenty of unbalanced groups and those runs are my favorite.

I see a call out for two DCs for many of the newer content, but other classes like CW and SW can also help the group out and buff/debuff. It is to bad that many players do not understand how a CW or SW buff build can help a group out.

dairyzeus

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

I see a call out for two DCs for many of the newer content, but other classes like CW and SW can also help the group out and buff/debuff. It is to bad that many players do not understand how a CW or SW buff build can help a group out.

It's not that people don't know about other classes buffs, it's that CW or SW buffs can't compete with DC buffs. If the choice is between a DO DC, a MoF CW, or a Templock. I'd choose a DO every time. That's assuming I've already got an AC DC in the group. I'd pick an AC DC over all of those.

mebengalsfan

dairyzeus said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

I see a call out for two DCs for many of the newer content, but other classes like CW and SW can also help the group out and buff/debuff. It is to bad that many players do not understand how a CW or SW buff build can help a group out.

It's not that people don't know about other classes buffs, it's that CW or SW buffs can't compete with DC buffs. If the choice is between a DO DC, a MoF CW, or a Templock. I'd choose a DO every time. That's assuming I've already got an AC DC in the group. I'd pick an AC DC over all of those.

That is you preference. I personally would rather take a MoF Renegade buffer over a second DC.

As for a SW buffers, not sure how much they give vs. a CW or a DC. I just know that the SW was our top damager with the CW coming in at second.

dupeks

Thanks for sharing @mebengalsfan#9264 Full buff/support runs (or runs where your dps is a fresh 70) can be a lot of fun. And most support builds at end-game can provide enough dps to manage a T2. As someone who primarily runs support toons, I love these kinds of challenges.

@dairyzeus I find making absolute statements seldom accurately captures the complexity of the situation. In all content, multiple party compositions are viable.

It's true that AC power sharing is pretty great, but if you already have an awesome Prot-OP power sharing and a MoF capping debuffs, then a DO for buffs is better. Or if you have OP, GF, MoF, HR, SW that can easily be a speedrun composition.

I main a DC, and I have other support classes. I love DCs and agree we're awesome. But saying that we are strictly better than others is misleading and kind of unhelpful. Don't let your personal preferences get conflated with provable facts.

rjc9000

Was this run on PS4?

ravenskya

Yes, it would have been PS4

rjc9000

ravenskya said:

Yes, it would have been PS4

PS4, huh?

Totally not making any judgements...

dread4moor

> @mebengalsfan#9264 said:
> I see a call out for two DCs for many of the newer content, but other classes like CW and SW can also help the group out and buff/debuff. It is to bad that many players do not understand how a CW or SW buff build can help a group out.
>
>
> It's not that people don't know about other classes buffs, it's that CW or SW buffs can't compete with DC buffs. If the choice is between a DO DC, a MoF CW, or a Templock. I'd choose a DO every time. That's assuming I've already got an AC DC in the group. I'd pick an AC DC over all of those.
>
>
> That is you preference. I personally would rather take a MoF Renegade buffer over a second DC.
>
> As for a SW buffers, not sure how much they give vs. a CW or a DC. I just know that the SW was our top damager with the CW coming in at second.

Nothing wrong with mixing things up with SW, MoF instead of 2nd DC. Sounds fun.
But factually, they are not equal to AC+DO.

RiDO would be better if already at debuff cap.
RiDO brings Terrifying Impact [edit Insight]: 100% uptime pure, uncapped damage boost + passive AoE power from Weapons of Light.
Those are passive. RiDO can just stand there, hands in pockets and rival SW or MoF.
Not to mention the half dozen active buffs/debuffs (power of the Sun, Bare your sins, condemned, break the spirit, divine glow, Forgemaster's Flame, etc...)
Well-built RiAC+RiDO duo are the buff goldstandard.
Edit:
T. INSIGHT, not impact.
Playing GF when typing this.

ravenskya

I get it Bengal, don't worry

Full buff group is fun!
Full group of healers is fun!
All pally power group is fun!
All DPS no tanks or heals is fun!

running these types of crazy groups is how you find out just what the different builds are capable of.

Not everything has to be about what's best in slot - sometimes a different buffing character adds more to your build than a DC or whatever everyone is screaming for at the time. I've run into some nasty buffing warlocks and CW's in pugs

And yes - on PS4 we don't have all of the fun gadgets you guys have on the PC for determining "what's best" so instead we just run it to see what happens.

sundance777

We have been messing around with groups in CN as well. We did an all DC group and an all 'Tank' group - Paladins and Guardian Fighters - although at least one person in each of groups was set up as fairly high dps. Fun stuff.

dairyzeus

dupeks said:

@dairyzeus I find making absolute statements seldom accurately captures the complexity of the situation. In all content, multiple party compositions are viable.

It's true that AC power sharing is pretty great, but if you already have an awesome Prot-OP power sharing and a MoF capping debuffs, then a DO for buffs is better. Or if you have OP, GF, MoF, HR, SW that can easily be a speedrun composition.

I main a DC, and I have other support classes. I love DCs and agree we're awesome. But saying that we are strictly better than others is misleading and kind of unhelpful. Don't let your personal preferences get conflated with provable facts.

Except I'm not going off personal feelings here. In the MoF vs DO DC debate I see no way in which a MoF provides more party benefit (outside of maybe cc)

Terrifying insight beats the dps boost from chaos magic (on average).
They can both provide equal amounts of debuffs.

Assuming the AC DC in your group isn't doing double dailies, you also get hallowed ground from a DO.

DOs also tend to do far more damage than a MoF (when built correctly).

DOs also provide a little bit of power share, which I'd take over a 5% crit chance buff every day (endgame players that care about crit are capped)

Nightmare wizardry is good, but soooo many classes have ways of generating combat advantage that it's usually redundant (you can also just position correctly)

I wasn't trying to argue the fun of various weird comps (all GF groups are hilarious), I was merely trying to shed light on why people in LFG tend to look for 2 clerics instead of the other buff classes.

CW and to a bit lesser extent SW buffs are good, but they just can't compete with a DO.

ravenskya

dairyzeus said:

I wasn't trying to argue the fun of various weird comps (all GF groups are hilarious), I was merely trying to shed light on why people in LFG tend to look for 2 clerics instead of the other buff classes.

I find that most people in LFG (at least on PS4) have little to no clue what they really need. I mean how many times have I seen "Need 3K DC for CN"... or "Need 3K this or that for mDemo." These aren't people looking for speed runs... most of the time the person doing the posting is 2500 IL and just have no clue what they are doing.

Our 4 pally SVA was not only a blast - but ran through it like it was nothing. The random DPS's that we picked up were commenting on how it was the easiest set of SVA's they'd done, and they couldn't believe it was without a DC.

dupeks

dairyzeus said:

Except I'm not going off personal feelings here. In the MoF vs DO DC debate I see no way in which a MoF provides more party benefit (outside of maybe cc)

How about the speed at which they can deploy debuffs. In an end-game party where everything melts quickly, being able to area-debuff fast makes a big difference. And I agree control / interrupts allow dps to move more easily around the battlefield.

Look, I'm also not saying that DO DC isn't great. Or that AC DC isn't great. They're both great. But they are by no means mandatory.

In my (reasonably extensive) experience running end-game content with a variety of parties, I'm confident that it's just not accurate to say that one class stands out as dramatically better than others (DC did before multiple reworks, sure, but not anymore). If that's your perception, then my interpretation is that you must've been running with great DCs but maybe not great other classes.

dread4moor

> @dupeks said:
> Except I'm not going off personal feelings here. In the MoF vs DO DC debate I see no way in which a MoF provides more party benefit (outside of maybe cc)
>
> How about the speed at which they can deploy debuffs. In an end-game party where everything melts quickly, being able to area-debuff fast makes a big difference. And I agree control / interrupts allow dps to move more easily around the battlefield.
>
> Look, I'm also not saying that DO DC isn't great. Or that AC DC isn't great. They're both great. But they are by no means mandatory.
>
> In my (reasonably extensive) experience running end-game content with a variety of parties, I'm confident that it's just not accurate to say that one class stands out as dramatically better than others (DC did before multiple reworks, sure, but not anymore).

That last line is the problem with this whole thread: Noone said DCs are (in general) "better" as a class then MoF CW or SW. That is a strawman argument.

All three are great and have their uses. Except for speed-run-record-breaker teams, I have never witnessed any overt Warlock or MoF discrimination in FBI. I play with them all the time.

But the OP made the argument that MoF and/or SW Temp bring the same Buff/debuffs to an FBI party as RiDO+RiAC.
That statement is factually, demonstrably false.
It is also largely irrelevant, as FBI can be done in reasonable time with either combo.

dairyzeus

dread4moor said:

But the OP made the argument that MoF and/or SW Temp bring the same Buff/debuffs to an FBI party as RiDO+RiAC.

That statement is factually, demonstrably false.

It is also largely irrelevant, as FBI can be done in reasonable time with either combo.

Exactly, nothing is mandatory in this game, but I do believe some things are objectively better than others.

dupeks

dread4moor said:

But the OP made the argument that MoF and/or SW Temp bring the same Buff/debuffs to an FBI party as RiDO+RiAC.
That statement is factually, demonstrably false.

It is also largely irrelevant, as FBI can be done in reasonable time with either combo.

At the risk of making this circular, can you you elaborate?

I mean I understand that MoF CW, Temp SW, and RiDO/RiAC are different classes, with different powers. But I get the sense that you are claiming that the group utility provided by DC is factually, demonstrably better than CW or SW. Yet nobody has provided any factual evidence.

Look, I don't want to draw this out. But it irks me when folks make sweeping statements about which class is strictly better without describing their evaluation criteria. In my mind, the best evaluation criteria is party clear speed. And in that regard, DCs don't actually stand out as much as other posters here claim (for a variety of reasons).

rjc9000

ravenskya said:

Not everything has to be about what's best in slot - sometimes a different buffing character adds more to your build than a DC or whatever everyone is screaming for at the time. I've run into some nasty buffing warlocks and CW's in pugs

And yes - on PS4 we don't have all of the fun gadgets you guys have on the PC for determining "what's best" so instead we just run it to see what happens.

*shrugs*
Xbox players don't have things like ACT or Loyal gear, yet the Xbox players currently hold the fastest FBI speedrun, even surpassing the previous PC player records.

And that's in the so called "full buff" group (ConqGF/DO DC/AC DC/Tankadin/DPS). The original poster's full buff group seems to have some redundancies in what each player brings to the team.

ravenskya said:

I find that most people in LFG (at least on PS4) have little to no clue what they really need. I mean how many times have I seen "Need 3K DC for CN"... or "Need 3K this or that for mDemo." These aren't people looking for speed runs... most of the time the person doing the posting is 2500 IL and just have no clue what they are doing.

I feel you: I get pissed when people call for certain builds without any knowledge of what the build can do.

I loathe those DPSers who call for an "AA DC". It's AC DC, and ACs provide more to the team than just AA (there's a huge difference between an AC who simply just spams AA, and the AC who mixes HG & AA with D-DG, EmpBtS/EmpFF, and Exaltation).

Another example is the "MoF Rene" in teams. Most players will simply look for the MoF path, not realizing their "MoF" has a Wheel of Elements, Vorpal/Dread/Lightning, uses Chilling Prescence, and is running a Fire Archon.

Not that this is a totally "bad" thing, as I'm more than happy to take advantage of these peoples' ignorance.

sundance777

ravenskya said:

Our 4 pally SVA was not only a blast - but ran through it like it was nothing. The random DPS's that we picked up were commenting on how it was the easiest set of SVA's they'd done, and they couldn't believe it was without a DC.

I have been trying to tell people this for a while...they keep insisting it can only be done with 3DC's because that is the only way they have seen it done - nice work!

ravenskya

@sundance777

It took us a bit to get the auras all sorted out before we started (we were trying to minimize duplication), but once we went in there it was a breeze.

oria1

As a MOF debuffer I approve :P




And in that spirit of doing crazy runs not using the standard classes... SW temploc / CW MOF dps duo run



Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

trzebiat

sundance777 said:

ravenskya said:

Our 4 pally SVA was not only a blast - but ran through it like it was nothing. The random DPS's that we picked up were commenting on how it was the easiest set of SVA's they'd done, and they couldn't believe it was without a DC.

I have been trying to tell people this for a while...they keep insisting it can only be done with 3DC's because that is the only way they have seen it done - nice work!

The worst thing is those people asking for 3 DCs are not actually trying to get DO DC, but just three DCs (which results with 3 AC DC). I sometimes see people looking for DC(s) for their 3 DCs mSVA runs for 1-2 hours (seriously?). People still really think the AA can save them? Having good group composition is much more important, but it seems not many get that. Sometimes when we were running mSVA with 1 AC DC, GF, B/D MoF CW and Healadin or OP tank, and were taking randoms, they didn't want to run without a second DC, or even some high IL DPS left when saw the last person added was another DPS and not DC. And those were one of the smoothest runs we had, with few downs, without wasting tons of scrolls like I saw often in those 3 DCs groups.

oria1

The MSVA run I was in with my SW temploc couldn't find a dc so we just went in. Kept all 10 players alive just fine. Had pillar under the tank so he had no issues either. Due to me and paladin the power share was at a steady 130k power.

We also did FBI for fun with healadin/templock/gf/gwf/cw mof/ The tank didn't even need to raise shield. Note that the group was far from 16k. I was the only 15.2 rest were at the time at 13.5-14.8k and casual but very loyal players

Having said that we need to remember that a class if not build right doesn't do much regardless if its a DC or SW or whatever. Just by being a dc or healadin doesn't mean you keep people alive or de/buff.


Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

oria1

dairyzeus said:

Terrifying insight beats the dps boost from chaos magic (on average).
They can both provide equal amounts of debuffs.

Assuming the AC DC in your group isn't doing double dailies, you also get hallowed ground from a DO.

DOs also tend to do far more damage than a MoF (when built correctly).

DOs also provide a little bit of power share, which I'd take over a 5% crit chance buff every day (endgame players that care about crit are capped)

Nightmare wizardry is good, but soooo many classes have ways of generating combat advantage that it's usually redundant (you can also just position correctly)

I wasn't trying to argue the fun of various weird comps (all GF groups are hilarious), I was merely trying to shed light on why people in LFG tend to look for 2 clerics instead of the other buff classes.

CW and to a bit lesser extent SW buffs are good, but they just can't compete with a DO.

Ok 1st off, no they cant provide same debuffs, not because they can't, because the cleric will have to give up a lot to get to a good 300%-320% that a MOF can go without worrying.

I like how you all miss the details: You need 2 DC and another class to grand CA to do what 1 CW is doing and that is... ok

Ok lets take it in reverse, What about a DO +CW MOF. A mof can easy get the effectiveness of the group with both uncapped and capped debuffs to a good 300-320% when 2 clerics can't get it above 190-230 easy. That way the DO can focus on party buffs and some dmg too, which will lead to faster runs. (they can get high debuffs btw but they have to sacrifice a lot to do that) . On top, a CW only deals with the boss 100% of the time making do less dmg (ray of enfeeblement) provide a dmg buff for around 40% of the time (chaos magic) provide CA (when there isn't a gf is specially good) and because we only deal with the boss you don't notice a fluctuation on debuffs as you can see with a cleric (uptime). Power sharing is done by the pally which can give equally good power and has the auras on top of that... so we are set .

My point tho is stop making this into who is best, who is worse etc etc. Every run can be done equally fast (unless few seconds a minute matters that much which in this case, you have to count the time it takes you to find 2x clerics on every run), So let me ask you a question if I may.

Would you rather take a not so good cleric as 2nd or a good cw? If class is all that really matters and not a good player then sure, go ahead. We both know what the outcome will be


Voodoo
MoF Debuffer.

mebengalsfan

As a DC I find two DC runs to be stupid. I mean honestly, why run two DCs when you can add a SW or CW to the group and both classes provide better damage than a second DC. The other thing is this...

A MoF CW that is able to keep Smolder up and get the Chaos Magic that buffs damage is providing around 50% increase in the group damage, roughly. Tell me please what other class can buff the group damage by that amount, especially on bosses and by the the way, in MMOs the only thing that should really matter is what you can do on a boss as that is why we are running the dungeon in the first place, to take down the boss.

This does not include Ray of Enfeeblement and Combustive Action. Add these to the mix and the CW adds quite a bit of value to the any group.

I know Pally's also do power sharing and reduce cool down. Why are they constantly dismissed over a DC. I'm all about giving all classes a chance.

The SW from what I have seen with the Temp build out heal even the best Healadin and why are they constantly left out of groups? They also do power sharing and Pillar of Power is also a great buff as well.

I was just making a point that groups composed of full buff groups can complete content without anyone being a DPS and do it in some decent time. The fact many still require 2 DC for FBI or a combination of 1 DC and a CW/SW/OP as a secondary buffer tells me that going into the latest content getting the extra buff really helps groups out with completing it faster.

What I personally dislike is the in game community where many still want 2 DC runs. IMO, get another buffer into the group and leave the second DC out as most groups are always looking for at least 1 DC.

beckylunatic

Recognizing the buffing potential of two DCs (one AC and one DO) is a different critter than absolutely insisting on it over others.

Again, Bengalsfan, you'd probably do well to learn a bit about uncapped and capped debuffs. Read the public guides on this very forum.

It's not remotely wrong to give everyone a chance to do their best for a smooth run. It is wrong to make claims that classes that only provide a capped debuff offer more to a party than ones that directly buff damage (not capped).

It still depends on the party, for sure, as some can benefit very much from whatever debuffs their team can bring because that's where they're at. But two DCs is very strong, and denying it makes you look like you don't know as much as you think you do, and people will then disregard anything else you have to say.

dairyzeus

oria1 said:

Ok 1st off, no they cant provide same debuffs, not because they can't, because the cleric will have to give up a lot to get to a good 300%-320% that a MOF can go without worrying.

Can you (or anyone) explain how a CW can get to 300% effectiveness alone? That doesn't make any sense to me. 200% I know is possible through capped debuffs, throw in 20% for dancing shield. Heart of the black dragon is what 15%?

So I can see 235%, what am I missing?

oria1

And you are very right @beckylunatic except that few know also, that the wizard can offer easier and with less cost the uncapped options than others. The DCs, yes do bring a lot on buffing power and damage, (as does the cw and sw and paladin) but the cw brings higher effectiveness and debuffs on bosses.

As an example (and yes I know you know it but its for others that maybe don't), the cleric power sharing and damage boost affects the "Base Damage" column, while debuffs affects the "Damage" column and those (debuff only values) appear in effectiveness.



This is with an sw and cw de/buffing in SP 3 days ago with fixed dragons heart etc. To my knowledge I haven't seen a DC that can bring 300+ effectiveness (debuff) solo or duo. Not that they cant if they choose so, but they will lose a lot more than they will gain (saying that with not the greatest know how on DCs but rather, from all the runs I have done so far, even with "pro" clerics and I have done a LOT).

Just food for thought

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

dupeks

dairyzeus said:

oria1 said:

Ok 1st off, no they cant provide same debuffs, not because they can't, because the cleric will have to give up a lot to get to a good 300%-320% that a MOF can go without worrying.

Can you (or anyone) explain how a CW can get to 300% effectiveness alone? That doesn't make any sense to me. 200% I know is possible through capped debuffs, throw in 20% for dancing shield. Heart of the black dragon is what 15%?

So I can see 235%, what am I missing?

Take a gander over here:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1226436/pve-damage-resistance-debuffs-effectiveness/p1

The formula is not additive for capped vs uncapped, it's multiplicative. So with 200% capped and a dancing shield, you get:

(sum of capped debuffs) * (sum of uncapped debuffs) = final effectiveness

(200%) * (100% + 20%) = 240% effectiveness.

If a perfectly legit player has a shield + frost WE + black dragon heart, they can get to:

(200%) * (100% + 20% + 10%*.75 + 15%*0.75) = 277.5% effectiveness on lvl 73 mobs, higher on lower level mobs.

If you use a PF WE or mirage weps, it's actually possible to get a bit higher because of the funky stacking behavior on certain debuffs.

oria1

To add to this, In the game code there isn't actually an "Uncapped" debuff. The bosses/mobs don't have defense or power as stats but only Armor Class (ac) and damage. So the DR debuffs nullify the AC and that's why its capped at 100% but the original coders of the game had an issue with the defense debuffs etc since the bosses don't actually have defense. After all how much is 45% less defense of zero (This is known since module zero)

So they made all the "defense" debuffs to be converted "on the fly" to fixed damage buffs and added to players effectiveness and that's why they are multiplicative to DR debuffs.

Thank you @dupeks for the simple explanation.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

dairyzeus

dupeks said:

dairyzeus said:

oria1 said:

Ok 1st off, no they cant provide same debuffs, not because they can't, because the cleric will have to give up a lot to get to a good 300%-320% that a MOF can go without worrying.

Can you (or anyone) explain how a CW can get to 300% effectiveness alone? That doesn't make any sense to me. 200% I know is possible through capped debuffs, throw in 20% for dancing shield. Heart of the black dragon is what 15%?

So I can see 235%, what am I missing?

Take a gander over here:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1226436/pve-damage-resistance-debuffs-effectiveness/p1

The formula is not additive for capped vs uncapped, it's multiplicative. So with 200% capped and a dancing shield, you get:

(sum of capped debuffs) * (sum of uncapped debuffs) = final effectiveness

(200%) * (100% + 20%) = 240% effectiveness.

If a perfectly legit player has a shield + frost WE + black dragon heart, they can get to:

(200%) * (100% + 20% + 10%*.75 + 15%*0.75) = 277.5% effectiveness on lvl 73 mobs, higher on lower level mobs.

If you use a PF WE or mirage weps, it's actually possible to get a bit higher because of the funky stacking behavior on certain debuffs.

Ah Right thanks for that. Just reread the whole thread. Forgot that uncapped debuffs multiply.

I stand by my opinions then. Both a DO and a MoF can get you to the capped debuff cap pretty easily.

A DO then also offers Terrifying insight, HG, small amount of power share, and (typically) higher personal damage.

A MoF offers Chaotic fury (sometimes), more CC, is less reliant on mob grouping to apply debuffs, and constant combat advantage.

I'll still take a DO any day. I'm not saying MoF is bad, it's an amazing build.

I just think that if I'm truly optimizing a run, the extra stuff a DO provides trumps MoF every time.

dupeks

dairyzeus said:

I'll still take a DO any day. I'm not saying MoF is bad, it's an amazing build.

I just think that if I'm truly optimizing a run, the extra stuff a DO provides trumps MoF every time.

Lol that's fair enough, everyone is entitled to their biases. I doubt that anyone could provide you any form of evidence that would dislodge you from your belief about DO superiority. But that's OK

As long as others reading the thread understand that the matter really isn't cut and dry. Everyone can choose to run with whatever party composition suits them most (or makes them feel fastest, lol).