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GWF Single Target Weapon Enchantment Testing Data

rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
edited July 2017 in The Militia Barracks
Since I recently did it for the GF, @santralafax asked me nicely for my results for GWF weapon enchant testing data. Here they are:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w-etKCCBIpFRBZhpJbW941bgKZlLKCNC9c7qcBJ2x1I/pub

EDIT: Link is down because I am revamping for Mod 12 debuff changes (makes Terror better), Bilethorn "2nd hit Crit/non Crit" disparity, and other things.

Now I can get distracted playing Fire Emblem: Echos: Shadows of Valentia...

Note: The biggest change is that the comparisons are done via graph instead of chart, since I got many complaints about "unrealistic" scenarios taken "in a vacuum". The graphs are done so you are able to input your own formulas.

I don't think Sharp is going to read this, but I'll probably put in labels for the X and Y axis... soon™.

EDIT: Holy ****, guys, if you go on reddit, please use this data as conclusive evidence as to why Vorpal kind of gets rekt by most other enchants on GWF DPS. It upsets me when I see people saying "Vorpal makes your Sure Strikes awesome"... when mathematical proofs suggest otherwise.
Post edited by rjc9000 on

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Comments

  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,534Member Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Since I recently did it for the GF, @santralafax asked me nicely for my results for GWF weapon enchant testing data. Here they are:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w-etKCCBIpFRBZhpJbW941bgKZlLKCNC9c7qcBJ2x1I/pub

    Disclaimers and other stuff
    -if you happen to be Sharpwit, full stop OCD grammar queen, the boss, Grace, Captain Falkon, or the best there is (especially you, since I hear you did this first), please check to see if I made any errors
    -make sure to give credit where credit is due, because I know I compiled the formula off the CW team's original formula
    -calculations do not reflect reality and are merely hypotheticals calculated off a formula, because math is much easier than trying to run 1000 FBIs with different enchants (I know a certain pato tried this, but failed miserably at one rounding Drufti)
    -I will eventually create a unified document for most classes and their most useful abilities, but for now, if people want, I will upload what work I have completed on certain classes as seperate document

    Hmm... Flaming and or potentially Bilethorn then?
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Posts: 3,748Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I have seen Lazalia running around with flaming. Was running on my GF and got some pretty nice results combo'd with WMS. Lighting is insane on my GWF already. Is flaming truly a DSP boost?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Sort of....

    If your enemies are all alive by the time all of the DoT hits of Flaming/Bile kick in, then Flaming or Bile will give the best DPS boost.

    If enemies die too quickly for your Flaming/Bile extra hits to kick in/you're a speed runner going for massive burst DPS, then you're going to want to pick Fey/Terror/Holy/Vorpal.

    This is why I put in the disclaimer/notes : Flaming/Bile deal most of their DPS over time, so while it might be good on paper, it might not be that great in reality.
    Same for Lightning: Lightning might look ugly on paper here, but this comparison only covers single target, and we all know Lightning is the go-to mob destroyer.

  • dmcewendmcewen Posts: 279Member Arc User
    @rjc9000 any chance you could do this for the HR? It would be nice if there were better options than vorpal for combat and dread for trapper for single target.
    Guild: Ruthless
    Character: Vendetta
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    dmcewen said:

    @rjc9000 any chance you could do this for the HR? It would be nice if there were better options than vorpal for combat and dread for trapper for single target.

    I am currently working through calculating OP stuff. I am logging on preview as I'm writing this (Sharp, stop heckling me <.<).

    The classes I don't know well will take longer to do, simply because I'm not sure how to use their abilities/how to calculate them. TR was originally next on my list, but Duelist's Flurry has me stumped... so I won't release that for a while.

    To avoid cluttering most of the class threads with an enchantment thread, I'll probably create a unified guide in the guide section coming soon (tm).

  • dmcewendmcewen Posts: 279Member Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @rjc9000 awesome, I appreciate all the hard work that pc players put into the game. Really helps the console players make educated decisions.
    Guild: Ruthless
    Character: Vendetta
  • santralafaxsantralafax Posts: 2,886Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Thank you! @rjc9000 It's going to take some thinking through on my next choice. I currently run with lightning/bilethorn. I guess I next need to find/do some tests of vorpal vs lightning on mobs.

    Edit: On second read I'll probably stay where I'm at. Good to have the accumulated data, though! Thank you for all the hard work of putting this together.
    Post edited by santralafax on
  • kingtk3#9075 kingtk3 Posts: 9Member Arc User
    I don't know if it's a problem of mine, but I cannot load the doc (google drive tells me it's not published)
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Posts: 1,332Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Hey guys,

    The first thing is to keep in mind that there's no longer a WE that shines for every situation like Vorpal used to do before. Now we can choose among different enchantments according to specific situations:

    Lightning: Clearing trash.
    Flaming: Long fights against enemies that will be running around, like Drufi.
    Holy Avenger: Fights that will last only 15s.
    Vorpal: Well-rounded one, useful for every situation so you don't need to switch.

    Note: Most people will see different results according to the build/game style.

    The trick is to be able to switch among them like using Lightning for clearing then HA for boss fights. That's why I'm always running around with different enchantments but that's not all, also different weapon set. Relic for boss fights and Aboleth for clearing trash.
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  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,534Member Arc User

    Hey guys,

    The first thing is to keep in mind that there's no longer a WE that shines for every situation like Vorpal used to do before. Now we can choose among different enchantments according to specific situations:

    Lightning: Clearing trash.
    Flaming: Long fights against enemies that will be running around, like Drufi.
    Holy Avenger: Fights that will last only 15s.
    Vorpal: Well-rounded one, useful for every situation so you don't need to switch.

    Note: Most people will see different results according to the build/game style.

    The trick is to be able to switch among them like using Lightning for clearing then HA for boss fights. That's why I'm always running around with different enchantments but that's not all, also different weapon set. Relic for boss fights and Aboleth for clearing trash.

    Not sure if I'm going to grab Aboleth, though Titiansteel may convince me to pick it up next mod. :P I need three Artifacts Weapon sets anyway. I know I won't have enough for 3 Titan Sets, though Relic/Aboleth/Titan seems perfect. :3
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 2017

    I don't know if it's a problem of mine, but I cannot load the doc (google drive tells me it's not published)

    Yeah, I actually (temporarily) took down the link for some editing because I wanted to recalculate Flaming and eventually add in a Lightning (AoE) calculation.

    The data/doc iis still in my drive there, it's just... being recalculated, since I'm noticing my calculations are super biased in Flaming's favor (because I'm assuming you get all 3 DoT ticks, which may not happen given how fast the GWF swings in Unstoppable).

    I know Lazalia is right about his analysis of the enchants, but I wanted to write some stuff about how people need to consider certain weapon enchants for the right situation. Because I can't count on people looking down here to see any notes/additional discussions. Then again, I can't count on them to read my walls of text at the beginning either...

  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,534Member Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rjc9000 said:

    Then again, I can't count on them to read my walls of text at the beginning either...

    Show me da wall n' ill read it. c:
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Whew, sorry to keep you guys waiting, I got a lucky break that my calculus professor canceled class today, so I had 5 hours to work on recalculating the GWF comparisons.

    The biggest change is that the enchant DPS comparisons are done by graph, since the graphs allow you to input your own values as you see fit. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Posts: 69Member Arc User
    First off, thank you so much for all your hard work. This whole thing is nothing short of art.
    Second, about the data itself. I've been lurking on this thread for a while. All i can say is:

    My eyes are open.

    I've been playing with those graphics of yours for a while. It's just me or is Vorpal almost always a bad idea when compared to other enchantments? I mean, it's sort of great on our Encounters and Crescendo, but we're basically all about At-Wills, aren't we?

    Overall, what Enchantment would you pick if you had to choose one or two (set swap ftw)?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 2017
    It's not you. Vorpal is supposed to be the all around enchantment, but suffers from master of none syndrome.

    The advantages of being jack of all trades isn't as advantageous when we have the ability to swap into specialized enchants fit for their specialized roles. It also doesn't help that the GWF can stack a large amount of Critical Severity, which hurts the usefulness of Vorpal even further.

    As you've noted, most of the GWF's DPS is going to be Sure Strike and WMS, with some IBSes, Hidden Daggers, and Crescendos mixed in. So buffing your Sure Strikes on single target and WMS on AoE are your top priorities for DPS.

    My top two picks, assuming you had all the resources in the world, in addition to a good team, would be:

    -Trans Lightning for AoE (and I'm not even accounting the Lightning + Steel Blitz thing)
    -Trans Holy Avenger for single target

    Lightning is obvious for AoE.

    Holy for single because, with a team who knows their buffs and debuffs, bosses will melt within the span of less than a couple of seconds (check any FBI speedrun with a GWF, most bosses can be burned extremely quickly). Bile and Flaming take too long to kick in (and Flaming has a high possibility to jam, especially given how quick a GWF swings in Unstoppable).

    Holy would be my choice over the similar Terror and Lightning because Holy Avenger's weird buff thing puts its weapon damage ahead of Lightning and Terror. Also, Lightning's burst doesn't crit.... so...

    I recognize that getting a Trans Holy/Lightning is going to set you back by nearly 20 mil AD, so, if you're a bit short on cash and only have the option to pick one enchant on the list, I would pick up a Feytouched for actually being good at its jack of all stats role (which is what I use, since I'm poor).
    Post edited by rjc9000 on

  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,534Member Arc User
    I just finished making my Trans Lightning. Now I have Trans Lightning n' Flaming. c: Holy's next. <3
  • gary5038gary5038 Posts: 29Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    So flaming is a bad choice compared to vorpal?
  • coldbeer#1097 coldbeer Posts: 36Member Arc User
    You just have to be careful when using flaming to avoid the jam aka not using unstoppable in any situation just because you can.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,901Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rjc9000 said:



    I don't think Sharp is going to read this, but I'll probably put in labels for the X and Y axis... soon™.

    @rjc9000 you underestimate me. CWs are the illuminati of NW.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    gary5038 said:

    So flaming is a bad choice compared to vorpal?

    Well, both have their issues. Flaming has the prevalent jamming issue. Vorpal has two issues, primarily in the form of needing Crit chance, and in the other issue that a bunch of other enchantments are just as good and don't require as much Crit chance.

    For a GWF, I would actually pick up Terror as a starter enchantment, because it's like Holy, except it doesn't have that special buff which makes Holy great. Fey is also a good starter option too, since it's decent at everything, and also useful in other places (could be useful on DPS GF or in PvP if you do that).

    You just have to be careful when using flaming to avoid the jam aka not using unstoppable in any situation just because you can.

    That's true, but avoiding Unstoppable is a stupid move, because you're effectively halving your DPS because you're only swinging half as fast.

    I'd rather just pick an enchantment which doesn't jam than deal with Flaming's jamming issue.

    rjc9000 said:



    I don't think Sharp is going to read this, but I'll probably put in labels for the X and Y axis... soon™.

    @rjc9000 you underestimate me. CWs are the illuminati of NW.
    You, Enomic, who else is watchi-

    Actually, don't answer that question, I really don't want to know who's stalking me.

  • gary5038gary5038 Posts: 29Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    gary5038 said:

    So flaming is a bad choice compared to vorpal?

    Well, both have their issues. Flaming has the prevalent jamming issue. Vorpal has two issues, primarily in the form of needing Crit chance, and in the other issue that a bunch of other enchantments are just as good and don't require as much Crit chance.

    For a GWF, I would actually pick up Terror as a starter enchantment, because it's like Holy, except it doesn't have that special buff which makes Holy great. Fey is also a good starter option too, since it's decent at everything, and also useful in other places (could be useful on DPS GF or in PvP if you do that).

    Currently my crit chance is 97% and using Vorpal. Since Holy and Lightning are too expensive, i'm thinking either Terror or Fey. Will either of those two increase my damage significantly, or should I just stick with Vorpal until I can get Holy/Lightning.

  • niadanniadan Posts: 1,635Member Arc User
    "You, Enomic, who else is watchi-

    Actually, don't answer that question, I really don't want to know who's stalking me."

    I am just here for the chicken fight.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    gary5038 said:

    rjc9000 said:

    gary5038 said:

    So flaming is a bad choice compared to vorpal?

    Well, both have their issues. Flaming has the prevalent jamming issue. Vorpal has two issues, primarily in the form of needing Crit chance, and in the other issue that a bunch of other enchantments are just as good and don't require as much Crit chance.

    For a GWF, I would actually pick up Terror as a starter enchantment, because it's like Holy, except it doesn't have that special buff which makes Holy great. Fey is also a good starter option too, since it's decent at everything, and also useful in other places (could be useful on DPS GF or in PvP if you do that).

    Currently my crit chance is 97% and using Vorpal. Since Holy and Lightning are too expensive, i'm thinking either Terror or Fey. Will either of those two increase my damage significantly, or should I just stick with Vorpal until I can get Holy/Lightning.

    This is the reason I have included the graphs, so you can input your own values.

    But if you look at the graphs, pretty much all enchants are better than Vorpal on Sure Strike and on WMS.

    Vorpal only wins on Daggers and IBS, but the former isn't a huge portion of your DPS, and the latter is not worth as buffing as much as the real meat of your DPS (Sure Strike/WMS).

    In short, you're better off with Fey and Terror,

  • gary5038gary5038 Posts: 29Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    gary5038 said:

    rjc9000 said:

    gary5038 said:

    So flaming is a bad choice compared to vorpal?

    Well, both have their issues. Flaming has the prevalent jamming issue. Vorpal has two issues, primarily in the form of needing Crit chance, and in the other issue that a bunch of other enchantments are just as good and don't require as much Crit chance.

    For a GWF, I would actually pick up Terror as a starter enchantment, because it's like Holy, except it doesn't have that special buff which makes Holy great. Fey is also a good starter option too, since it's decent at everything, and also useful in other places (could be useful on DPS GF or in PvP if you do that).

    Currently my crit chance is 97% and using Vorpal. Since Holy and Lightning are too expensive, i'm thinking either Terror or Fey. Will either of those two increase my damage significantly, or should I just stick with Vorpal until I can get Holy/Lightning.

    This is the reason I have included the graphs, so you can input your own values.

    But if you look at the graphs, pretty much all enchants are better than Vorpal on Sure Strike and on WMS.

    Vorpal only wins on Daggers and IBS, but the former isn't a huge portion of your DPS, and the latter is not worth as buffing as much as the real meat of your DPS (Sure Strike/WMS).

    In short, you're better off with Fey and Terror,
    Thanks! :smiley:

  • coldbeer#1097 coldbeer Posts: 36Member Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    gary5038 said:

    So flaming is a bad choice compared to vorpal?

    Well, both have their issues. Flaming has the prevalent jamming issue. Vorpal has two issues, primarily in the form of needing Crit chance, and in the other issue that a bunch of other enchantments are just as good and don't require as much Crit chance.

    For a GWF, I would actually pick up Terror as a starter enchantment, because it's like Holy, except it doesn't have that special buff which makes Holy great. Fey is also a good starter option too, since it's decent at everything, and also useful in other places (could be useful on DPS GF or in PvP if you do that).

    You just have to be careful when using flaming to avoid the jam aka not using unstoppable in any situation just because you can.

    That's true, but avoiding Unstoppable is a stupid move, because you're effectively halving your DPS because you're only swinging half as fast.

    I'd rather just pick an enchantment which doesn't jam than deal with Flaming's jamming issue.

    rjc9000 said:



    I don't think Sharp is going to read this, but I'll probably put in labels for the X and Y axis... soon™.

    @rjc9000 you underestimate me. CWs are the illuminati of NW.
    You, Enomic, who else is watchi-

    Actually, don't answer that question, I really don't want to know who's stalking me.
    What i mean is start with at wills to get the proc from flaming, then use unstopabble and dailies
  • santralafaxsantralafax Posts: 2,886Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @rjc9000 What is the frequency of Flaming "jamming"? Will you see it in every fight, or just occasionally?
    Post edited by santralafax on
  • gary5038gary5038 Posts: 29Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    In the graph, "R represents the Rank of the ability." What does this mean? Rank of the enchantment?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    gary5038 said:

    In the graph, "R represents the Rank of the ability." What does this mean? Rank of the enchantment?

    The rank of the ability represents the rank damage bonus you get from leveling up your ability, assuming your ability has one.

    Say, for example you look at Sure Strike's tooltip. It says "+10% damage at Rank (x)". So, you invest a point in it and the tooltip damage increases.

    That's the rank damage bonus and what R is referring to.

    The R slider on the graph is kind of a pointless feature, since the serious GWFs who look at this will have R4 powers in the few useful abilities anyways. But it's there, if people "really" want to know.

  • david#2060 david Posts: 78Member Arc User
    very interesting thread, thank you.

    Just one quesion, which is that sort of magical buff that makes holy so special? ty for explaining.

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,089Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    very interesting thread, thank you.
    Just one quesion, which is that sort of magical buff that makes holy so special? ty for explaining.

    Ignoring the thread's title, scroll down to Sylux's (@darthzarr's) comment in the link below.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1229297/holy-avenger-damage-buff-value

    Whenever you randomly activate the Holy Avenger heal/DR buff, you activate the weapon damage buff, which multiplies your Holy Avenger Weapon Damage by 1.33x for the duration of the DR buff.

    If you take base minimum Holy Avenger weapon (30%, if you read the tooltip, it may not say 30% because it scales with your Power and stuff) and multiply it by 1.33, you get 0.399.

    This means that Holy Avenger deals 39.9% of weapon damage while the special weapon damage buff is active. The special weapon damage buff practically puts Holy on par with Bilethorn, except that Holy doesn't have to wait for its damage (because Bilethorn deals most of its damage on its second hit, which hits a few seconds after the original hit).

    As an aside note, I decided not to include it in the graphs because of its inconsistent uptime, but I suppose that not including ithe special buff reduces Holy Avenger to a Terror which is is better according to theory. I might consider adding it someday...

This discussion has been closed.