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Burnadin - The DPS Devotion Paladin

veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
edited January 2018 in The Citadel
It is here my friends, the anticipation is over.
Behold the Burnadin in all of it's glory.

Don't refer to it as a healadin please...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F-FmgmJShq4k1kectqvQcUStwfW2Vm1LKuJiaM7ZnTA

The purpose of this is to provide a solid foundational structure for the math behind the build and the logic of how it works.
As for the build itself it is meant for players that have a fair chunk of time but not money. As most of the damage comes from 3 sources, it is important that you spend time on boons coming from campaigns. As you play with the Burnadin you began to grow and expand the Burnadin to become something other than the original design, which is EXACTLY what you should be doing. The Burnadin can evolve to meet your playstyle and expectations while still being a good basis for a build. The burnadin was never meant to be the best build ever, but will provide the 95% of the player base with a means of getting into dungeons easily providing they have completed the Dread Ring Campaign to start with.

The guide will always be a living document, until I retire it, so changes will occur constantly and the changelog section in the document will reflect what I change in general terms. If you have questions, comments, math verification, or related feedback, leave it here on the forums or contact me in game @veywiil#8685. Feel free to share the google docs link.

It was my humble pleasure to be able to present this to the forums and a number of my peers. I would also like to thank the one person who I look up to on matters of theory crafting in Neverwinter @thefabricant, you greatly inspired me. The other big shoutout goes to @rubytrue who dumped hundreds of hours of their life to help me with testing and running, and crunching numbers. Your a true blessing to my life sir.

Thank you for spending the time to read through this 30+ pages, massive full feature article.

My appreciation,
Jezereal
Post edited by veywiil#8685 on
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
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Comments

  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    Jezereal,

    Great foundation you've got with this guide! I know some parts are still a work in progress, but it looks like all the fundamentals are in place. As I tend to see myself as a broken record, Thanks again to you, rubytrue, and oggycz and others for the times you spent testing and to you for taking time put all this data to print. Hoods off! :)


    -Shia-
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • isaintify1isaintify1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 414 Arc User
    A good read thanks for posting!
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    This is so good. Great job!
  • eshneeshne Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Amazing job. Thanks to all the folks who helped test and prepare this. <3
  • mcfly#2257 mcfly Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Hi veywiil,
    excellent job. Exactly what I was looking for.
  • oggycz#5356 oggycz Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    Very nice job. Thank you. BTW, I have to force myself to public my build. It could be interesting for someone.
    Svatá Prdelka
    game - Human/real life - ???
    OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    Very nice guide. Thanks for the effort.
    I aim to misbehave
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    It is here my friends, the anticipation is over.
    Behold the Burnadin in all of it's glory.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q1g_Tq6nb8CBKiq3U_fqiKXN3Q07vy0_z3yasGpuN9o/edit?usp=sharing

    This is for PC, not console. The guide will always be a living document, until I retire it, so changes will occur constantly. If you have questions, comments, math verification, or related feedback, leave it here on the forums. Feel free to share the link.

    It was my humble pleasure to be able to present this to the forums and a number of my peers. I would also like to thank the one person who I look up to on matters of theory crafting in Neverwinter @thefabricant, you greatly inspired me. The other big shoutout goes to @rubytrue who dumped hundreds of hours of their life to help me with testing and running, and crunching numbers. Your a true blessing to my life sir.

    Thank you for spending the time to read through this 15+ pages, massive full feature article.

    My appreciation,
    Jezereal

    @veywiil#8685 great guide there, thank you very much for sharing it, it is a very interesting concept. I do have a question though, why did you state it isn't a console guide? I mean, sure you are on pc but, with the exceptions of loyal avenger gear and perhaps just 1 companion, I didn't see any item/boon you have there that can't be got/unlocked on xb1/ps4.

    Another question, wouldn't damage pets suchs as archons and siege master boost the damage from aura of courage and therefore be optimal choices? What about the wild hunt rider? has it been tested? perhaps BoV/CoP could make it proc a lot and significantly boost AoC damage?
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited May 2017


    @veywiil#8685 great guide there, thank you very much for sharing it, it is a very interesting concept. I do have a question though, why did you state it isn't a console guide? I mean, sure you are on pc but, with the exceptions of loyal avenger gear and perhaps just 1 companion, I didn't see any item/boon you have there that can't be got/unlocked on xb1/ps4.

    Another question, wouldn't damage pets suchs as archons and siege master boost the damage from aura of courage and therefore be optimal choices? What about the wild hunt rider? has it been tested? perhaps BoV/CoP could make it proc a lot and significantly boost AoC damage?

    Sorry, I have no plans of testing what boosts AoC in the near future, I would like to take a break from writing for a short bit, as well as doing math. With the latest release of mod 11b, I am fairly displeased with the content that was introduced, especially the new lockbox, which was great until you get to the 'epic+' rewards... Even some of the blue boxes are trash...

    I recommend 2 of the archons if you re-read through the companion section. With loadouts I'd get something that makes sense for both Prot/Devo, and archons make sense, as well as the Energon for this. Siege master is overrated IMO, it's mainly I just don't like anything about him; rather than he's bad to use.

    Please do not focus on boosting AoC damage a great deal, HP is the main source of doing that, and debuffing is the other good way, since AoC is flat (from initial testing), it does not seem like things like power which boosts the indirect stat of damage would effect it in anyway whatsoever. Could be wrong, but I seem to recall @thefabricant testing this at one point? This would also line up with BG/HW damage not being increased by damage stat scaling.

    Quick ninja edit: I state this is for PC and not console, as we are always ahead of you for patches. I plan to update this regularly so that means that the guide will essentially always be ahead of console, period.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • michaelrn1982michaelrn1982 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    Awesome guide. Looking forward to running with you guys again. Perhaps this Friday with the new loadouts?
    Gathornia The Divine

    Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here

    [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
    [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
    [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
    [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
    [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.

  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User

    Awesome guide. Looking forward to running with you guys again. Perhaps this Friday with the new loadouts?

    Count me in.....
  • oggycz#5356 oggycz Member Posts: 182 Arc User

    Awesome guide. Looking forward to running with you guys again. Perhaps this Friday with the new loadouts?

    If my timeshift is not a problem, I would like to do some dungs again. :)

    Svatá Prdelka
    game - Human/real life - ???
    OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
  • alastor#1759 alastor Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Reading the guide and as far as I'm in no way an expert of the game I'm really liking it and will surely use it.

    Thanks for the effort :)

    Edit: having rolled a Human OP I had 3 Heroic Feat Points to allocate and I chose to put them into Impassioned Pleas (aka faster Tab recharge). I thought this was the optimal choice since the other valid option would have been the Charisma-to-Crit feat which didn't seem too appealing since Crit isn't a main stat in this build.
    Post edited by alastor#1759 on
  • thrill#1417 thrill Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I have heard mixed things about how well impassioned pleas actually works. It is hard to beat 1 Crit for each point of Charisma. I would take the Crit feat.

    Edit:. I went back and checked and it was actually Sharpedge's pally guide where I saw that. He was of the opinion that impassioned pleas did not work at all and was a waste.
  • alastor#1759 alastor Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    Well that's unfortunate, at leats I still haven't respecced once so I will be able to fix this issues.
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I have had a number of people contact me complaining about this build. As well as other people in higher IL's say they don't like the build. Perhaps I did not make the purpose clear. For example let me address why certain endgamers are not a fan of this build, as they feel it is a DPS loss, and a tanking loss.

    The point of the Burnadin is to heal and dps and tank at the same time without making major sacrifices. It works very well until you reach a point where you believe something else suits your playstyle better. The Burnadin was meant to be a standard build that you spec into to be the jack of all trades, master of none. You will be out dps'ed, and out tanked in certain situations by other builds or classes. But you are providing support in every area possible, by making sure party members don't go down by tanking, that you are helping with the dps and the run, and that you are keeping folks alive via heals.

    The Burnadin works better at lower Item Levels (<15k IL) with more focus on boons. If you are spending the time to do your Dread Ring, and Storm King Thunder campaigns and their associated quests, without spending much money on the game this guide works well, as those boons do flat damage, so increasing your item level or power won't help out their dps, and they are 2 of your 3 main sources. The burnadin is a intermediary step on your way to reaching a perfect build that is comfortable to you, and fits your playstyle. Endgame content is NOT challenging by any means, this is meant to lower the 'floor' so that more paladins can enter and do well in 6,600 dungeons all the way up to the endgame content.

    Does that make the Burnadin bad endgame? Not by any means, by certainly is not it's main focus, as it tries to help you do everything in all the content. If you have some time, but not a lot of money this is a good build for a variety of Item Levels. If you plan on dumping $10,000 into the game, to reach endgame, perhaps this is an intermediary step on your way there.

    Edit: With loadouts remember you don't have to choose whether you want to be stuck with something like a Burnadin or a Tankadin with power sharing. You can have both.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • omgitszephomgitszeph Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I just wanted to stop by, and say thank you Veywiil. The time and effort put forth here is appreciated. Keep up the good work :)
    ~Intelligence is SEXXY, talk nerdy to me ~
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Updated once again, mainly gear updates as I swapped out a number of pieces.
    I also edited the original post to have a description and intent of the guide without having to click on the link.
    In addition I will shortly be including some weapon enchants and testing numbers, I recommend straying away from plague fire at the moment.
    Post edited by veywiil#8685 on
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • mcfly#2257 mcfly Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    A new Mod was announced recently with a new campain, new boons... I was thinking about it: when the damage of the burnadin is more static and we don't scale well with equipment doesn't we fall back more and more with every new mod?
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    Totally. It's also a matter of group strenght you're in. At lower IL where it takes more time to clear enemies, especially trash, Dev OP can easily out dps dedicated DPS classes. Talking from experience running CN on my Dev with the same group, the moment when DPS friends got better damage I started to fall behind with damage because I couldn't make full use of all BG ticks and charged BL before enemies were dead.
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    @mcfly#2257 Yes, this is correct for the most part. A big part of the damage in this build comes from boons which are flat damage sources. This means that we are capped in our damage on these sources and don't do any more with increases to the dmg %, like what happens when you add more power.

    However AoC, and most of our damage abilities and things like weapon enchants do benefit from the damage % increase. This will boost our damage. This can be significant but not earth-shattering like for other DPS classes. This means in comparison to other full dps classes we will fall behind each mod, unless we find either a way to increase our flat damage, or we get a new source of flat damage. This is a risk of using the build, and one I continue to weigh as time goes by and new content is released. Until we reach such a point where this build becomes NOT useful to the target audience (of lower IL players <13k with a chunk of time but not money), I will continue to change the build which is based around 2 sources of flat damage as more than 50% of our dps. Good question.

    @trzebiat#2067 beat me to the punch line by 4 minutes since I like to type walls of text apparently. What he said is true, and one of the factors in the 'Our Kryptonite' section of the guide, we do steady dps over time, if you reduce the time we have, we can't adapt well to that. Which is fine, given the target audience of the guide. After 13k IL though, you really start to see other classes do FANTASTIC with burst dps, so we just don't seem as glamorous because of that.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Somehow my entire last post got deleted into the Aether.

    I had this whole wall of text explaining in a lot of detail. The summary is we lose out on dps compared to other classes because we have flat sources of damage that don't scale off of power taking up a majority of our DPS %. We can increase our damage through power thanks to AoC and other means, but it is not as substantial as other classes, so you will see them out perform both as IL goes up, and as the time it takes to run content goes down.

    It does bother me I lost like 3 paragraphs though into nowhere...
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • mcfly#2257 mcfly Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Maybe somebody should drop a hint for cryptic. Or even better they include a boon in the new mod which let us scale better. ;)
  • kreatyvekreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,512 Community Moderator

    Somehow my entire last post got deleted into the Aether.

    I had this whole wall of text explaining in a lot of detail. The summary is we lose out on dps compared to other classes because we have flat sources of damage that don't scale off of power taking up a majority of our DPS %. We can increase our damage through power thanks to AoC and other means, but it is not as substantial as other classes, so you will see them out perform both as IL goes up, and as the time it takes to run content goes down.

    It does bother me I lost like 3 paragraphs though into nowhere...

    The Spam bot ate it. I made it regurgitate it. Sorry about that.
    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox
    Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
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  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User

    Maybe somebody should drop a hint for cryptic. Or even better they include a boon in the new mod which let us scale better. ;)

    Either that or include a damage over time (i.e. poison, disease, environmental damage, etc.) mechanic to the dungeons (the lair itself, mobs and bosses) that might increase the attractiveness of bringing a healing classes (Devos and Faithful DCs). If not that, introduce some kind of Life Steal resistance to mobs in the dungeons that prevents every walking Stormbringer, Mournblade, and Black Razor from returning to full health after every second or third hit. Seriously, if they're not looking to boost the base damage of the support classes, the least they could do is introduce new mechanic that allows us to perform our core mission - healing. If the Devs don't do that, Devo pallies will continue to be locked in just providing flat DPS via boons and locked into one tree. Thats my two coppers.

    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User

    Maybe somebody should drop a hint for cryptic. Or even better they include a boon in the new mod which let us scale better. ;)

    To be fair, we still do an insane amount of damage even without the scaling.... Scaling would put us in another universe damage-wise compared to other DPS classes. I did my first mSpellPlague and mASV the other day(s); I was still #2 on Paingiver for each of them.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    Maybe somebody should drop a hint for cryptic. Or even better they include a boon in the new mod which let us scale better. ;)

    To be fair, we still do an insane amount of damage even without the scaling.... Scaling would put us in another universe damage-wise compared to other DPS classes. I did my first mSpellPlague and mASV the other day(s); I was still #2 on Paingiver for each of them.
    #2 on mSP and mSVA? Someone must have got their hands on some drow poison. :p
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • mokhtar#8607 mokhtar Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Thanks for the build... But i change a bit to get balance damage. When i first follow your build, Divine Judgement and Smite are bit low damage. Then i change the boon with high crit and Lostmouth set for crit, the damage are increase. So, by doing a full charge burning light then drop the divine judgment or smite, instantly you can kill a lots of mob. I like this Burnadin build, you can heal and damage as well.
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    Thanks for the build... But i change a bit to get balance damage. When i first follow your build, Divine Judgement and Smite are bit low damage. Then i change the boon with high crit and Lostmouth set for crit, the damage are increase. So, by doing a full charge burning light then drop the divine judgment or smite, instantly you can kill a lots of mob. I like this Burnadin build, you can heal and damage as well.

    Glad to hear your experimenting with it. The major reason I don't suggest these by default is that we need to be able to tank, and sets like Lostmauth are not helping us do that. Sets like Protector, or Valhalla do, which is why I recommend using those sets.

    Smite is a good dps option, and I know a lot of Healadins/Burnadins that LOVE using, it's not a personal favorite. I do recommend using it if you don't like Burning Light. Divine Judgment always does a lot of damage, and if you want to sacrifice your tankiness for damage you can, we do fill a healer slot after all.

    I don't personally like playing like that, where you do a ton more dps, but lose the ability to tank. If it fits your playstyle, then good, after all play what makes you happy!
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • theopvtheopv Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    Excellent foundation to play around with. A lightning at pure or trans works brilliantly with this. I have found this to be a very versatile build. I'm about 2 weeks away from the SKT boon (5k hit on a heal) as I had put the pally away until this build popped up to re-invigorate my enthusiasm for it. At 3.5k (on xbone so don't have the new IL) have been part of banner runs on MSVA top in heals and 5th in pain giver. Jack of all trades indeed.
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