Another OP Nerf ?

mynaam

Hi

I might be reading it wrong but it seems they are again nerfing the OP. Why do they hate the op so much or are they planning a tank as the next class?

Oathbound Paladin: Divine Call no longer reflects damage from other Reflect tagged powers.

This in not a rage just trying to understand this constant negative patches against OP. The DPS boost(again) of DC in todays patch notes also baffles me


P.S. I play a CW.

loboguild

Isn't this just preventing a reflect loop between certain powers? Probably players found a way to generate too many Aura of Courage procs with it or something.

mynaam

this looks like a reduction in survivabily of op in places like CN too me. certain things.... not mentioned what ... will no longer proc reflect(asuming this is supposed to be deflect) from devine call.


At least that is how i read it

jaegernl

Nothing to worry about. The *reflect* Divine Call gives - 'You reflect 5% of incoming damage back to your attacker (max 5% of your Maximum Hit Points)' - is a tiny amount of damage and doesn't affect your survivability at all. This is, like @loboguild says, just a fix to prevent a loop between certain things.

It'll stop things like Hellish Rebuke from the SW constantly proccing on the OP, because the OP reflects part of the damage back at the SW. In PvE, you won't notice anything from it, as very few enemies will Reflect damage, and in PvP, you'll notice it a fair bit, I'm guessing, and will increase your survivability whilst curtailing some lag the loops can cause.

mynaam

Thank you that makes me feel better

clericalist

mynaam said:

This in not a rage just trying to understand this constant negative patches against OP.

Considering that it when it first appeared it was basically an immortal god mode design, fixes had to happen.

lightaven

Copying this from another thread:

The Divine Call fix is not a nerf to protection paladins. It is actually a very important fix, and I appreciate their effort and response to this matter.

Here is the thread:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1229505/endless-damage-loop-from-paladins-protectors-call

zeus

Hello!...
Since module 5 is added to the paladin class game, I play this class until today. I can easily say that there is no positive arrangement and development for this class except for the small things. And this class has always left the backplane. It is slow, cumbersome and can not give buff and debuff in full. For this reason,
Is selected. If you really want to do something positive for the paladin class, especially the skill animations should be shortened and corrected. A similar application was made for 'T.R' before. For example, the stunning blow skill animation has been completely removed (if they do not need it ...). The forces that are troubled by me:

1) In the case of Burning Light..trans, you get to the wrath of the creatures without loading the full power, you use them reflentless avenger and then you use this power afterwards the group taki is taken out of prison by the other members .. this power trans loading time is shortened.
2) templars wrath ... keeps your hands open for long after this power is used unnecessary demonstration ...
3) sacred wepon .. I used every single feature on a single creature
4) lay on hands ... visual animation is only one of the very long skıller .. Pvp is especially useful when you get cut off in the middle of the cut is useful to go away to use it to your friends, you do not have to worry about the dead ...
5) binding oath ... why is this power so disturbed that I do not know how much it has received. If you damage the panda or pvp, you can die in that new state. I do not use Msva, FBI, CN either.
6) divine protector ... if you increase the damage on the paladin, you shorten the duration of the reason why .. ?? For example, you could leave it in 10 seconds ... to be able to use this power to fully utilize the recovered lethal sockets, will the paladins do no damage at all?
7) absolition..many things about this power have been written I have seen many times I have changed the build I did not see. This power does not make any sense to me .. I did not see any use in the dungeon or PvP ..

8) aura of courge .. artifact force 25% control resistance does not work..
9) aura of truth ... artifact is definitely working ...
10) aura of wrath .. artifact not work as a power ...

I can count more troubles like this. It is obvious that each new module has more difficult dungeons. So I think it would be better to look at the lines that need to improve on the wrong side rather than nurture the tank classes .....
Thanks in advance.

zeus

Hi

I might be reading it wrong but it seems they are again nerfing the OP. Why do they hate the op so much or are they planning a tank as the next class?

Oathbound Paladin: Divine Call no longer reflects damage from other Reflect tagged powers.



This in not a rage just trying to understand this constant negative patches against OP. The DPS boost(again) of DC in todays patch notes also baffles me


P.S. I play a CW.
> @mynaam said:
> Hi
>
> I might be reading it wrong but it seems they are again nerfing the OP. Why do they hate the op so much or are they planning a tank as the next class?
>
> Oathbound Paladin: Divine Call no longer reflects damage from other Reflect tagged powers.
>
>
>
>
> This in not a rage just trying to understand this constant negative patches against OP. The DPS boost(again) of DC in todays patch notes also baffles me
>
>
> P.S. I play a CW.



Hello!...
Since module 5 is added to the paladin class game, I play this class until today. I can easily say that there is no positive arrangement and development for this class except for the small things. And this class has always left the backplane. It is slow, cumbersome and can not give buff and debuff in full. For this reason,
Is selected. If you really want to do something positive for the paladin class, especially the skill animations should be shortened and corrected. A similar application was made for 'T.R' before. For example, the stunning blow skill animation has been completely removed (if they do not need it ...). The forces that are troubled by me:

1) In the case of Burning Light..trans, you get to the wrath of the creatures without loading the full power, you use them reflentless avenger and then you use this power afterwards the group taki is taken out of prison by the other members .. this power trans loading time is shortened.
2) templars wrath ... keeps your hands open for long after this power is used unnecessary demonstration ...
3) sacred wepon .. I used every single feature on a single creature
4) lay on hands ... visual animation is only one of the very long skıller .. Pvp is especially useful when you get cut off in the middle of the cut is useful to go away to use it to your friends, you do not have to worry about the dead ...
5) binding oath ... why is this power so disturbed that I do not know how much it has received. If you damage the panda or pvp, you can die in that new state. I do not use Msva, FBI, CN either.
6) divine protector ... if you increase the damage on the paladin, you shorten the duration of the reason why .. ?? For example, you could leave it in 10 seconds ... to be able to use this power to fully utilize the recovered lethal sockets, will the paladins do no damage at all?
7) absolition..many things about this power have been written I have seen many times I have changed the build I did not see. This power does not make any sense to me .. I did not see any use in the dungeon or PvP ..

8) aura of courge .. artifact force 25% control resistance does not work..
9) aura of truth ... artifact is definitely working ...
10) aura of wrath .. artifact not work as a power ...

I can count more troubles like this. It is obvious that each new module has more difficult dungeons. So I think it would be better to look at the lines that need to improve on the wrong side rather than nurture the tank classes .....
Thanks in advance.

sam115151

I was an old paladin user. I understand the reaction, I got so nervous that I finally found a way to go through another class and now I do not play paladin anymore. Zeus has been in the right statements and I agree with it that some classes have been given special privileges and specialties and have been made specially for certain games ....

zeus

Thanks sam 115151 ... :)

armadeonx

@zeus#7254 & @sam115151

Whilst I agree that some skill animations are too long and others could do with an adjustment, I do not agree with your feeling that the class is bad.

We have had to adjust to the changes and that has meant adjusting how we survive. The old paradigm of 'high recovery & HP, ignoring defence and dps' no longer works due to the removal of immortality from DP and BO. These days you need to build for high HP/95% DR in combat/high damage and crit for temp health generation.

Achieving this combination means you can easily mitigate a minimum of 86% of incoming damage & your very high temp health defends you from the other <14%. Funnily enough, this also resolves the OP threat generation issue.

It is true that pallies below 3k will now not be able to walk through high level content like they used to but then again low level GFs also have survivability problems in these areas.

Yes, Relentless Assault should be changed from a knockback & the pally community have asked on many occasions for it to be changed to a knock-down or aoe stun. We have also criticised the charge time for Blinding Light but whilst they are annoying, their current state does not break the class.

The pally is a more complicated class these days and you have to know what you're doing. I also disagree with the statement that it's slow & cumbersome, I find the pally to be a much more active fighter than the GF and unlike the GF its buffs improve as your gear improves.

damoc

Sure a pally can zip from foe to foe but it IS a slowpoke

• Burning light 2.5s charge
  
• Smite 1.5 s while you sloooooooooowly attack which leaves the ennemy the time to either flee or cc you
  
• Heroism 2 full seconds waving your hands for something similar to 'unstoppable' from the GWF, on a daily.... If you have to psyche yourself an eternity before going Hero, it should be called 'cold feet'
  
• Divine touch it doesn't hit for much (contrary to the description) and you have 1 full second before it hits... as a rule of thumb any close quarter power should be almost instataneous. see GF Knee breaker, anvil of doom or commanding strike as a reference
  
• Circle of power again 2.5s of hand waving
  

These are only some of the powers and I didn't even touch the powers themselves jsut listed on the top of my head the absudly long firing powers... It wouldn't even be that difficult to just adjust the animations

rubytrue

You realize that OPs carry a heavy shield and mace, correct? Seriously, try carrying around a trash can lid and hammer (a fraction of the weight of a shield and mace) and see how long your animations take. Given what they are supposed to do relative actual physical actions, I think they are rather fast. It sounds like you guys want OPs to stop whooping things and go pew, pew, pew with a laser gun.

rjc9000

rubytrue said:

You realize that OPs carry a heavy shield and mace, correct? Seriously, try carrying around a trash can lid and hammer (a fraction of the weight of a shield and mace) and see how long your animations take.

The longer animations are all the magic animations (Circle, Burning, Sacred Weapon, Heroism, Templar's Wrath, Bane, Absolution, etc.). The melee hits are actually rather quick, with the exception of Smite.

But Smite actually hits rather hard, even for the Paladin's standards.

rubytrue said:

It sounds like you guys want OPs to stop whooping things and go pew, pew, pew with a laser gun.

Maybe not with a laser gun, but I'm certain a large amount of people would like the Paladin to not have awful damage.

How many people rolled a Paladin because people liked the idea of being a holy warrior which smites evil and protects their comrades?

How many people wanted to play a class which hits like a wet noodle (unless you overgear your Paladin to the point where you might as well play a DPS class)?

armadeonx

Thing is, my pally does really nice damage - if our skills fired at the same rate as a dps class it would increase our damage by up to 40% and suddenly others would be crying that the OP is OP (again).

The only 2 things I'd change are the cast time on CoP (to half) and Blinding Light to allow it to charge whilst moving.

damoc

rjc9000 said:

The longer animations are all the magic animations (Circle, Burning, Sacred Weapon, Heroism, Templar's Wrath, Bane, Absolution, etc.). The melee hits are actually rather quick, with the exception of Smite.

But Smite actually hits rather hard, even for the Paladin's standards.

armadeonx said:

Thing is, my pally does really nice damage - if our skills fired at the same rate as a dps class it would increase our damage by up to 40% and suddenly others would be crying that the OP is OP (again).

The only 2 things I'd change are the cast time on CoP (to half) and Blinding Light to allow it to charge whilst moving.

I never spoke about the damage (unless you mention Divine touch but it's a pet problem power of mine)
Once you start taking off the 25k IL mark, the damage start to rise nicely. What peeves me is the lack of reactivity of the OP by which I mean the time it takes for most of our encounters and some dailies to fire.

Burning light that need 2 to 3 secs to full charge and you loose everything if your bumped before you release the charge and you're rooted while charging and if you release early on you get a watered down version... The min you get is the initial pulse that may or may not be sufficient to interrupt foes the max is 9 hits with a cool cc. I would go even further than armadeonx by saying we would gretly apréciate to start with 4 hits and have only 1 second to full charge BL or we could charge while moving and not loose the charge when disrupted or net have any need for charge whatsoever

sacred weapons, frankly as a Dev OP I never ever use it

Smite is ticking me off because both the visual FX and the sound FX for this skill are so dynamic and gives the impression of some unstoppable force like destiny crashing on the foe but in reality it is slow: the hit registers only at the absolute end of the visual FX and smite let you be vulnerable for the duration of the FX which lasts for more than 1second. In close quarter it's not the best behaviour

Heroism is a panic button. you should press it and have immediate relief. But here you seriously have to plan ahead

Lay of Hands, never use it

Bane: the root effect is a bit unsettling but otherwise it's ok

Templar wrath is every Prot OP best friend. I don't find it particulary slow but I don't use it much as a Dev OP

Shiel of Faith: look a power that fires quickly! it's good don't botch it

Divine touch is akward for many reasons: it hits like an even wetter noodle than the other powers, but you mark a halt of one second before you hit. (and that's without taking into account the devotion component leaves in a kind of connundrum - have to hit a foe in close quarter to heal, not very flexible, or you overheal while hitting like a sodden noodle...)

Absolution doesn't strike me as very slow but as a dev OP, the funky targetting for this spell coupled with a meh efficiency means I don't use it much

Relentless Avenger: Untill they force us to charge BL I don't want to see the knock back disappear since it gives me the time to charge BL

CoP: It's pretty lackluster for Devotion but it's a must have for Prot. Still in close quarter with the giggest baddie on the back taking the time to lauch it is a serious window of vulnerability

Special mention; Sanctuary that doesn't always respond quickly

All in all, I don't advocate for a buff in damage but it would be nice if we could have more responsive powers.

rubytrue

I'll agree on Sanctuary. That needs to be both immediate and reliable.

sundance777

We used to be able to, on xbox, be moving side to side and activate sanctuary on the go, it seems now you have to stop moving to get it to come up.

I really like where the pally is right not, it does enough damage to solo things and it can tank about anything in game, although we still lose threat fairly easily, but that's OK with me, it comes back when the thing that stole threat is dead...I am sure someone will pick up that gwf

armadeonx

I play a prot and have no experience of the devotion path (at least I won't until they bring in loadouts

My comment on damage refers to the current output v time to utilise encounters - if the animations on our offensive encounters were halved we would do a lot more damage (more activations per minute = more dp/m) which would lead to calls for a nerf from the dps classes (just look at the nerf calls on the GF forum...)

One thing I would like to clarify though and that's on the activation times you mentioned. I've just timed each of them (several times each to confirm) and I came up with the following results:

Burning Light: 2 secs
Smite:1 sec
Heroism:2 secs
CoP: 1 sec

CoP actually surprised me, I thought it was longer & when you're in the middle of a fight it certainly feels like it. Because it's easy to interrupt CoP I also did a CoP + Smite combo and fired off both in 2 secs without interrupting CoP.

As you gave a comparison between Heroism and Unstoppable I thought I'd also test Unstoppable for its activation time so I switched to my GWF and I found it actually takes about 1.5 secs between activation and your next attack skill. I think given the difference in roles we actually come out of it pretty well.

zeus

Hello again..
It's nice that we agree on some issues ..
But my ideas on that subject will certainly not change
There has been no positive development for the paladin class.

rubytrue

zeus#7254 said:

Hello again..

It's nice that we agree on some issues ..

But my ideas on that subject will certainly not change

There has been no positive development for the paladin class.

I really don't want the devs to do much, if anything, to the paladin class; as far as I am concerned, we are bordering on being Overpowered as it is.

zeus

I respect everyone's views.
I am using a 4.3 k op. I gave up using it because it is not enjoying anymore.

damoc

armadeonx said:

As you gave a comparison between Heroism and Unstoppable I thought I'd also test Unstoppable for its activation time so I switched to my GWF and I found it actually takes about 1.5 secs between activation and your next attack skill. I think given the difference in roles we actually come out of it pretty well.

Thank you very much for your testing. A question though on the difference between Heroism and GWF's unstoppable

In my experience, although you may have a delay of 1.5s to your next hit as a GWF, I always thought you get the benefits almost instantly (temp HP, cc immunity and bonus damage) whereas the OP will be rooted and vulnerable for 2 seconds before obtainning the life preserving bonuses. Am I wrong? I don't play GWF anymore since it bores me greatly

trzebiat

It's not about the time animations take, but the fact these powers can be interrupted during that time. Can triggering Unstoppable on GWF be interrupted?
Try PvP using Smite for example.

zeplin055

I have missed people so many times with smite I hardly use it in PvP anymore. Protect pallys are almost ok where they are at they actually debuff better then guardian fighters, though some buffs are mediocre cool down reductions nice for TR and HR I'm the groups. I would like to see CoP be changed for the Devo pally and have it give a damage increase for allies over a healing increase for allies heck even a 5-10% would be better then it is now.

armadeonx

I don't believe it can be interrupted, you just aren't causing damage for that activation period - but their temp health from it is very low since it was nerfed.

I haven't done any pvp for about 15 months or so - I got fed up with the drains & wards and rings were about to come in so I stopped bothering. I don't believe smite would be a good choice for pvp though - the GWF has a hard time using IBS for the same reason - pvp players refuse to stand still while you're trying to hit them with the slow attack skills.

waywardwizard

To be fair, Paladins can reduce cooldowns and that is probably one reason they have low base damage on abilities and long animations. My OP's entire rotation can be cast twice in the start of a fight thanks to divine call. In PVE when tanking hordes of mobs that's awesome. In PVP.. well, screw pvp.

Still, when my 2.6 GF starts using at-will WMS with marks + ITF in PVE the damage output makes my 4k+ OP jealous..

So I wouldn't mind a bit of a boost

PS: Heroism is the worst Daily ops have. Its supposed to be used when someone needs control immunity yet it pretty much controls you while casting which makes it meaningless. If you want to pvp with an OP and have reliable anti-cc, slot cleansing touch

rjc9000

... Heroism has its uses.

While its casting animation is long, its best use is to give you Temporary HP at the start of combat, when you don't have any. This can be especially helpful on bosses which attack you with a oneshot right away, such as ELoL Boss 1 (yo **** that javelin) or Orcus.

But it definitely is lackluster, although the only worse dailies are Lay on Hands and Healing Font.

jaime4312

waywardwizard#4349 said:

To be fair, Paladins can reduce cooldowns and that is probably one reason they have low base damage on abilities and long animations. My OP's entire rotation can be cast twice in the start of a fight thanks to divine call. In PVE when tanking hordes of mobs that's awesome. In PVP.. well, screw pvp.

Still, when my 2.6 GF starts using at-will WMS with marks + ITF in PVE the damage output makes my 4k+ OP jealous..

So I wouldn't mind a bit of a boost

PS: Heroism is the worst Daily ops have. Its supposed to be used when someone needs control immunity yet it pretty much controls you while casting which makes it meaningless. If you want to pvp with an OP and have reliable anti-cc, slot cleansing touch

@waywardwizard#4349 I see what you mean there but I still love how you pally mains totally disregard the fact that OP is much much tankier than GF, there should be a tradeoff, if your damage gets increased then TW, BO and survability in general should be downgraded to compensate. If OP does similar damage to GF but is far tankier then why even bothering with the latter? As it stands it's balanced, GF can deal more damage but if specced for pure dps is uber squishy while OP can deal good damage and still tank pretty much flawlessly, you guys actually get tankier the more dps you deal, GF is the other way around.