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PVP Suggestions: Keep It Simple Stupid solutions
josiahiyon
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User
There are 3 types of problems with PVP right now:
Iyon
@ayroux , @tolkienbuff , @freshour
- Powercreep and gear differential -- keeps the pvp population small, new and returning players not interested
- Lack of "new" content -- difficult to justify new content when population is small
- Class Balance -- difficult to justify significant pvp class balance resources when pvp population is small
- Powercreep and gear differential
The combination of Item Level stats (Gear, Enchants, Artifacts) and Non-Item-Level stats (Boons, Mount Insignias, Potions, Mounts) create a very large divide between a new player and a BIS player. Interestingly, the Item Level stats only account for roughly 1/3 of this gap. If the Non-Item-Level stats were reflected in item level, BIS players would likely have at least 10k item level.
Some easy to address suggestions- Remove Tenacity from gear and give the same % to everyone. Adjust % to hit desired tanky/spanky balance. The point of tenacity was to create a 'balancing lever', not to further widen the gap between new and BIS pvp players. New players with minimum Tenacity take twice as much damage as New players with max tenacity.
- Reintroduce slightly modified pre mod6 diminishing-return stat curves for pvp only. This directly reduces the effect of powercreep, and should be straightforward as the logic for this should already exist. The proposed arpen formula adjusts the curve so that it mimics the pre-mod6 curve on a post-tenacity basis. The TenacityArpenResist would be whatever is set in #1 for everyone. The power and HP curves are necessary additions, or else they would become the de-facto choices due to less diminishing returns. Note that the regen and lifesteal curves shown below (pre-mod 6) are effectively the same.
Proposed PVP Stat Formulas. Black-font -> same as pre-mod6.
Graph of Proposed Stat Curves (except HP)
Graph of Proposed HP Curve
The stat curves and tenacity changes above would increase new player survival time by 300% (new player still dies, but lives 4x longer), while also decreasing the survival time (more deaths) in evenly matched fights by ~ 25%.
- Remove Tenacity from gear and give the same % to everyone. Adjust % to hit desired tanky/spanky balance. The point of tenacity was to create a 'balancing lever', not to further widen the gap between new and BIS pvp players. New players with minimum Tenacity take twice as much damage as New players with max tenacity.
- Lack of "new" Content
PVP content has been lacking for good reason: lack of players. If the gear differential is addressed with the changes above, it would be good to follow up with "new" content.
Some easy to address suggestions- Bring back the Neverwinter Combat League. Permanently (with mod resets), and with rewards. This was a huge success, and likely the best new pvp content ever introduced. Should be easy since the code should already exist.
- Bring back Solo queue event, but make it a permanent feature. This was also a success both times, and probably the 2nd best new pvp content introduced. Should be easy since the code should already exist.
- Bring back the Neverwinter Combat League. Permanently (with mod resets), and with rewards. This was a huge success, and likely the best new pvp content ever introduced. Should be easy since the code should already exist.
- Class Balance
This is difficult to address without seeing the results from the (1) and (2) above. I'm also not sure if there is anything that is definitely easy to address. Does anyone have any obvious easy to address balance suggestions?
- Apply tenacity to piercing damage
- Remove all potions (except heal) from pvp
- Increase Healing Depression as an alternative tank/spank lever
- Adjust Tenacity's critical suppression as an alternative tank/spank lever
- Adjust weapon damage of classes that do too little or too much damage
- New Domination Map
- Foundry PVP maps
- 5-man Premade queue
- Remove companions from stronghold siege
- Remove Insignia bonuses from domination pvp
Iyon
@ayroux , @tolkienbuff , @freshour
Iyon the Dark
4
Comments
+1
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Okay all sarcasm aside if they would do this... they would get hundreds if not thousands of the highest paying customers they have ever had BACK and no longer playing and giving money to other games... Will they realize the gold mine they have? I highly doubt it, but these changes if they didn't put their "spin" on them would make a lot of us come back
They should hire you.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
I like your pretty pictures Iyon!
Job well done.
Just like the OP here... If they merely:
- removed tenacity on gear and bumped every lvl 70 up to like 35% tenacity. and...
- created new diminishing stat curves for PVP only, so that "overstacking stats" didnt help much.
It effectively levels the playing field. Both of those ,BTW, are NOT hard to do.
1) Open your item data base. Delete out tenacity on all gear. Modify base tenacity from 10% up to 35% or whatever. DONE. Estimated time? Maybe 1 Day of work for a DEV.
2) Program Domination/GG/SH Siege to work off DIFFERENT diminishing Returns on stats (forumulas published above). This might be slightly more complicated but I cant imagine it taking more than maybe TWO (2) days of 1 DEV to program that code... They have some conditional formula for the companions... So clearly they CAN separate game modes and what applies where. Copy that same "condition" to use a different stat return... ONLY in those instanced areas. The IWD/DV PVP areas can keep the current stats.
Which BTW... Then actually makes a PVP duel arena valuable because you can use that "conditional stat return" formula for that duel arena. Because they WOULDNT be able to do 1v1s in IWP or DV anymore....
But the total DEV time on that stuff cant be more than a few days by a competent programmer. Push it out to the community, heck you dont even need QA to do anything if you just call it a "PVP Event" where you are testing new stat returns and equalized tenacity across the board.
The community will LOVE it, even if it requires a little tweaking.
Run the thing for 2 weeks, take feedback via forum post, and then make a few tweaks and BAM.... PVP fixed. ALL players can be competitive now.
Its very simple solution that takes very little time.
@mimicking#6533 - I really hope you guys look into something like this. PVP needs to be a more "level playing ground" for ALL players. Just like in the leveling brackets, you guys "boost" lower levels up to the level cap (i.e. a lvl 41 gets boosted up to a lvl 49). In the same way, I think you need to "level" the playing field at 70....
Frankly, the OPs suggestion of using alternative "stat curves" in PVP seems like a REALLY good idea that I cant imagine is difficult to code... It levels the playing field because it lessens any advantage of "BIS veterans" over stacking things like armor pen, or lifesteal or power... Heck I know guys running 40k power in PVP... compared to a new player, its insane.
The sad truth this, it just seems like they don't care.
Dunno if this will work or not, was trying to hyper link but couldnt get it to work...
Here is some rough math of the actual Item Level different between an AVERAGE player and a BIS player. Hopefully this adds to the discussion about the "gear gap" and why this is such a big issue in NW...
Man can dream , mimicking should be a hero if he push this (for some time)
he should already figure it out, that we cant wait to pvp mode, to start with changing pvp ...
Elixirs are also only 1 small piece of ALL the food/buffs/potions we can get. It would be REALLY nice if these were also deemed "PVE only" and didnt work in PVP. Even THAT one change alone (according to the above math in my link) would remove ~30k worth of available stats. Using a 700:82 Item Level calculation....
The "buffs" alone through those sources probably equate to ~ 3k+ Item Level ALONE.
Iyon the Dark
I just went and re-tally all the buffs. NOT including VIP bonus, Guild rank 5 food, invoke buffs, I also went CONSERVATIVE on the buff estimates assuming 1 primary ability score is worth 400 stats from things like Heroism, and taking the LESSER of the "stats" from things like( Sorbet, Caprese, soup - cause you only get to pick 1) and NOT counting Secondary ability score bonuses.
I count EASILY over 13k in stats being fully potted. Which if a rank 12 = 700 points means that being fully potted is the equivalent of over 18 rank 12s advantage. This is being HYPER conservative too.
This means these conservative values represent a MINIMUM of 1500 Item Level difference from pots ALONE.
When you start adding things like Mount bonuses and SH rank 20 boons etc... Its no wonder the power difference is so much
Vs
BIS player, legendary mount, fully potted, SH rank 20 boons you essentially have a:
3k Item Level player vs ~8k Item Level player (conservatively). The reality of which is most players DONT have 100% of individual boons and most players DONT stack invoke buffs, nor are VIP, etc etc. so its probably closer to a 9-10k BIS player (since I didnt count those things) compared to a "3k Item Level player"
So its no wonder a BIS "4.3K player" can take on 3 "average" players and win.... Because the power of all those things.
i want it to be complicated
1) bring the old criteria for conqueror shards: 2 matches with 600 points or 1 win
2)add random reward. tradeble purple L140-145 piece of armor to PVP. it should be class sepecifc with tenacity that give small buff to specifc power. for example helmet that buff TR dazing strike by 5%. or boots for DC that buff divine glow by 5% more heal etc. (obviously SE buff will be the most expensive one)
3) add potion drop when one of the party reach 300,600,900 points. those poitions go in your belt and are not for heal.
they can give one of the folowing buffs:
In your face: reflect 100% damage for 10 sec
La La La La: contorl immune for 10 sec
taste so good: 100% life steal for 10 sec
Da Da Da Da: 100% DR for 10 sec
Baskan Bok: the ultimate one, for 10 sec all players do damage to each other, no matter which party you are (save it for the focal and smoke bomb)
4) when match is tie and both party reach 500 points, all the companions spawn in node2. those are the players companions with increase health and they will attack anyone in mode 2. they will not help or buff the players.
5)add foundry contest with PVP. i want to see nodes up high or sorunded by walls
-1
Ya introduce more broken potions and Items and Companions to Balance pvp you should be a Dev lol
we all know from strongholds and 50 person instances companion cause crazy Lag . the dev in the lastest stream even
said so cause all power and interactions have to load in from everybody in the zone
+1 to specific rare items that can boost certain powers marginally as specific rewards those could work for Pve or Pvp
I usually only did a few select pots, like bang for your buck ones. I never FULLY potted like this but I know guys that do.
I 100% agree. Which is why I advocate for them to standardize all stats in PVP by making a "default" for each class that replaced all your stats - this would mean pots have zero impact in PVP.
@nitocris83
I agree PvE Stat boosting elixirs such as elixirs of fate, wildstorm, heroism etc. Should be disabled in PvP by default. They give way too much stat wise and contribute to runaway burst damage.
Instead there should be elixirs that you can buy with glory that do useful but non overpowered stuff like boost tenacity, control resist, piercing damage resist etc. that can assist undergeared players be more competitive, while also making glory more useful once you have nothing left to spend it on besides salvage.
I would RATHER see them remove this (crit suppression) and then increase everyones base" tenacity DR" levels up from 10% to maybe 50% (yes 50%) and then put a SEVERE diminishing return on actual tenacity stat so that stacking say 2k Tenacity only adds another 10%.
CC tenacity should be pegged to say 35% with a cap of 45%.
ARP Suppression I would suggest maybe 60% base with a cap of 80%.
This would put more favor on crit builds which seem to be more prevalent in PVP. One thing that MUST change then is Shocking Exec. MUST respect tenacity. It can still bypass "DR" but MUST be hurt by tenacity. With the removal of crit suppression but it now impacted by tenacity it should be a net wash or close to it.
Eh, this is a minor factor and rather keep this simple and the same. 1000000% behind this one! This should NEVER EVER have been implemented. The ONLY people that were advocates of this were PVE players who have zero clue how companions impact PVP.... This would also help the lag issues BTW. Yes. 100% Yes. Nuff said.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
So maybe the first step, is to fix the queue by implementing something that all pvp games allready have : A League System
All start in the lowest league and progress to the top as they get better. Each match will have you complete against similar league players.
The current score system is pretty good since its a sum of nodes captured + kills + kills assists + node defended so no class will have a problem.
If queue is fixed then more players will join pvp = devs start implemeting all the nice ideas pvp community proposed.
Just my two cents...
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