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[Lesson from WOW] What Neverwinter could learn from the "Giant" in PVP (item-standardization)
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Ill be honest, I have not played WOW since maybe 2010. That said, I know MANY brothers from Neverwinter who have since returned to the MMO Giant. Mainly because there is nothing else to play these days and NW PVP is just a you-know-what.
I was recently talking to a buddy over in WOW and asked about how the itemization and builds work. I was surprised at the answer and couldnt help thinking "this is what Neverwinter needs". Oh and before I go any further (in b4 "go back to WOW" comments), I have played Neverwinter since Open Beta. I have financially supported it and back in module 3 (maybe the last "great" era of PVP) I was even #1 on the leaderboards for a few weeks - when they actually worked. I am the leader of a MAX ranked SH as well as have been "BIS" since as long as I can remember. Any Old School NW player who is still around, knows that we've "been there" "done that" and this ISNT for my benefit. Well, scratch that, it is, because PVP is just boring as sin right now. Why? Mainly because the gear gap between players is too high for the population level in this game. TLDR: Gear gap. This is for the benefit of the PVP community.
So what does WOW do, that Cryptic/PWE should take note?(I copy/pasted a link below so you can read EXACTLY how they do this)
Well they created "generic" stats that ALL players get when they go into PVP. Completely normalize everything. Doesnt matter if you stack 20k ARP or 2k ARP, everyone enters with the SAME HP/Power/Crit/ETC - based on CLASS. (Meaning a DC will have different default stats than a GF).
Now, they DO make 1 adjustment. For every YYY points over YYY Itemlevel, it increases these stats by 1%. So how could Neverwinter use this?
Well, frankly, each class would be given a default of stats: HP/Power/ARP/Defense/Deflect etc. etc.
Then(for example) Every 100 item level OVER 3,000 you get an extra 1% of those stats.
So (as an example - this is NOT a stat proposal). All GWFs might have:
120k HP
6k ARP
8k Power
3k recovery
3k Defense
2k Deflect
Etc. etc.
Since I am Item Level 4,300. I would get 13% (1% per 100 over 3,000) more of these stats. Meaning
120k HP => 135k HP
6K ARP => 6780 ARP
8k Power => 9k Power
etc etc.
So what this does is completely level the playing field HOWEVER still leaves some "wiggle room" to have a small gear advantage for being BIS gear. What determines this though is pure and simple "Item Level".
What this WOULD mean though, are all the stuff that currently contributes to a characters "Power"(not the stat), such as Boons, Mount bonuses, artifact equipment, etc. All that stuff wouldnt matter... It would be a SIMPLE function of:
Item Level - 3,000 * 1% = Bonus of the Vanilla stats you get for your class.
So what ITEMS you have matters less than what ITEMLEVEL you are in determining your "PVP stats". Some players MIGHT still want various loadouts - since what your PVE in might not be your highest ItemLevel... So there is still some value in that... This could even extend to tenacity as well - Give a base, then it would work with the bonus (or maybe HALF the bonus) So rather than 13% more tenacity, I would get 6.5%... Just some ideas...
I know this is controversial, but if "The MMO Giant" has done this, and with a MUCH larger population, there must be a good reason for it.... I cant help but think that this would get MANY more players doing PVP on a regular basis, if you were to remove all the gear gap and make this a more competitive environment.
Thoughts?
EDIT: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19994381
There is the link if you want to read the details on how WOW does its PVP now...
"In Legion, as soon as you zone into a PvP instance, the stats on your gear will be nullified, and you'll be given a pre-determined set of stats that's uniquely configured for your specialization. Furthermore, any set bonuses, enchants, Legendary bonuses, or trinket effects will be deactivated"
"The only contribution your gear will make to your overall power is through a small modifier based on your average item level. For every point that your average item level increases, your pre-determined PvP stats will increase by 0.1%. That means a 25 item level difference between two players only results in a 2.5% difference in stats, compared to the 25% difference it makes today. There’s still a little incentive to improve your gear – a concept we think is important for World of Warcraft – but the benefits are much less pronounced.
These changes bring a couple of major advantages. First of all, it puts everyone participating in organized PvP on a much more even playing field. Obviously, you'll still want to unlock your Honor Talents to reach your full potential, but you'll be able to hold your own in battle in the meantime.
Second, it allows us infinitely more control to make PvP-specific balance tweaks. If one spec's Mastery is too strong in PvP, that's fine – we can just reduce the amount of Mastery they have. If a spec is too easy to kill, we can increase their Stamina. If a healer is having too much trouble keeping teammates alive, we can increase their Spellpower. In short, we can tune classes for PvP in a way that’s exclusively focused on PvP."
I was recently talking to a buddy over in WOW and asked about how the itemization and builds work. I was surprised at the answer and couldnt help thinking "this is what Neverwinter needs". Oh and before I go any further (in b4 "go back to WOW" comments), I have played Neverwinter since Open Beta. I have financially supported it and back in module 3 (maybe the last "great" era of PVP) I was even #1 on the leaderboards for a few weeks - when they actually worked. I am the leader of a MAX ranked SH as well as have been "BIS" since as long as I can remember. Any Old School NW player who is still around, knows that we've "been there" "done that" and this ISNT for my benefit. Well, scratch that, it is, because PVP is just boring as sin right now. Why? Mainly because the gear gap between players is too high for the population level in this game. TLDR: Gear gap. This is for the benefit of the PVP community.
So what does WOW do, that Cryptic/PWE should take note?(I copy/pasted a link below so you can read EXACTLY how they do this)
Well they created "generic" stats that ALL players get when they go into PVP. Completely normalize everything. Doesnt matter if you stack 20k ARP or 2k ARP, everyone enters with the SAME HP/Power/Crit/ETC - based on CLASS. (Meaning a DC will have different default stats than a GF).
Now, they DO make 1 adjustment. For every YYY points over YYY Itemlevel, it increases these stats by 1%. So how could Neverwinter use this?
Well, frankly, each class would be given a default of stats: HP/Power/ARP/Defense/Deflect etc. etc.
Then(for example) Every 100 item level OVER 3,000 you get an extra 1% of those stats.
So (as an example - this is NOT a stat proposal). All GWFs might have:
120k HP
6k ARP
8k Power
3k recovery
3k Defense
2k Deflect
Etc. etc.
Since I am Item Level 4,300. I would get 13% (1% per 100 over 3,000) more of these stats. Meaning
120k HP => 135k HP
6K ARP => 6780 ARP
8k Power => 9k Power
etc etc.
So what this does is completely level the playing field HOWEVER still leaves some "wiggle room" to have a small gear advantage for being BIS gear. What determines this though is pure and simple "Item Level".
What this WOULD mean though, are all the stuff that currently contributes to a characters "Power"(not the stat), such as Boons, Mount bonuses, artifact equipment, etc. All that stuff wouldnt matter... It would be a SIMPLE function of:
Item Level - 3,000 * 1% = Bonus of the Vanilla stats you get for your class.
So what ITEMS you have matters less than what ITEMLEVEL you are in determining your "PVP stats". Some players MIGHT still want various loadouts - since what your PVE in might not be your highest ItemLevel... So there is still some value in that... This could even extend to tenacity as well - Give a base, then it would work with the bonus (or maybe HALF the bonus) So rather than 13% more tenacity, I would get 6.5%... Just some ideas...
I know this is controversial, but if "The MMO Giant" has done this, and with a MUCH larger population, there must be a good reason for it.... I cant help but think that this would get MANY more players doing PVP on a regular basis, if you were to remove all the gear gap and make this a more competitive environment.
Thoughts?
EDIT: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19994381
There is the link if you want to read the details on how WOW does its PVP now...
"In Legion, as soon as you zone into a PvP instance, the stats on your gear will be nullified, and you'll be given a pre-determined set of stats that's uniquely configured for your specialization. Furthermore, any set bonuses, enchants, Legendary bonuses, or trinket effects will be deactivated"
"The only contribution your gear will make to your overall power is through a small modifier based on your average item level. For every point that your average item level increases, your pre-determined PvP stats will increase by 0.1%. That means a 25 item level difference between two players only results in a 2.5% difference in stats, compared to the 25% difference it makes today. There’s still a little incentive to improve your gear – a concept we think is important for World of Warcraft – but the benefits are much less pronounced.
These changes bring a couple of major advantages. First of all, it puts everyone participating in organized PvP on a much more even playing field. Obviously, you'll still want to unlock your Honor Talents to reach your full potential, but you'll be able to hold your own in battle in the meantime.
Second, it allows us infinitely more control to make PvP-specific balance tweaks. If one spec's Mastery is too strong in PvP, that's fine – we can just reduce the amount of Mastery they have. If a spec is too easy to kill, we can increase their Stamina. If a healer is having too much trouble keeping teammates alive, we can increase their Spellpower. In short, we can tune classes for PvP in a way that’s exclusively focused on PvP."
Post edited by ayroux on
12
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I get where people are coming from "We worked hard for YYY, so we should get the benefits in PVP" and this makes sense... however its painfully obvious the smaller population size of NW, along with the sheer power those things give, is over the top.
The fact that WOW did this, was shocking to me, but it makes sense. PVP GEAR can be awarded as cosmetics for Xmutes. Want the coolest PVP stuff? Gotta still win matches etc...
however PVP needs to be "fair" otherwise only the BIS players will go in... No "average" geared player even stands a chance at this point (unfortunately).
What is cool about WOWs system is that even a FRESH lvl 70 in NW would stand a chance. PVP would be all about what spec/builds you have - rather than what Items you have. Sure 10% more stats makes a difference, but given the stat curves of the game. Going from 8k power to 9k power really only gives what... like 2% more damage? Thats not enough to make a MASSIVE difference.
So PVP becomes more about skill than anything else, which is what it would take for people to come back and play!
If it's "normalization", I'm fine. Many have called to transform Tenacity into an environmental stat and this proposal has the same approach. Look, I know the devs need to make money from (item) progression, but it's obvious it doesn't work for PVP. Scratch all PVP-specific gear with Tenacity, or transform it to unique transmutes, and let people roll into Domination with PVE gear at no disadvantage. I like it, I know I personally would definitely PVP more. PVE is already a hell of a grind, I can't do another one to get toons prepared for PVP. And at the end of the day, it's one of the reasons why PVP is slowly dying.
PS. I'm so tired of people justifying lacking features by f2p. Cryptic wants people to spend money on this, same as any other form of monetization. For that to happen the game has to be good enough to spend on.
I mean even if a healing paladin has no use for ARP, for the sake of simplicity, they can give them the same ARP #s as the other versions.
Most stats are universal thought. Power helps all. Crit helps all. Defensive stats help all.
Also saying "its wow it has more budget blah blah" means NOTHING. I am not saying make this game WOW. I am saying take a concept WOW has used and use it here!
BIG difference.
Also, if "The MMO Giant" has moved to this, with its MILLIONS of players (meaning they COULD support a healthy gear gap considering population) my GUESS is they have data to suggest that more people prefer this type of system... otherwise why else would they do it?
A VERY easy way to approach the "stat allocation" is to merely create "standard" versions of the characters. So what this COULD mean is go make a GWF (as an example) and go deck him out in Blue SH Gear and record his stats. Then deck him out in the OTHER version of that blue SH gear and record those stats. You can even assume Radiant Enchants in each slot (so HP/Power) as those are universal.
Anyways record the stats on both sets up gear and combine them into a "best of both worlds" approach.
So if Set 1 = 2400 Defense but Set 2 = 4000 defence. Use the 4k Number.
If Set 1 = 6k power Set 2= 4k Power. Use the 4k Number.
Thats ONE method.
Or again, im sure Cryptic has guesstimated what an "average" player would look like in terms of stats. I cant think it would be THAT hard to do this. heck, you can even throw it up on the PTR and then open a thread for stat feedback and fine tune characters that way.
Just pick arbitrary #s.
6k Power
6k ARP
4k Recovery
4k Defense
4k Deflect
120k HP
4k Lifesteal
ETC. Just go from there.
I mean it seems to be it wouldnt be MUCH different then them designing an armor + weapon set. Basically they are just designing a "default" PVP set that everyone will now use....
Another way to do this is to merely go equip the PVP sets and use those values (again assuming rank 10 radiants or something) and remove boons/mounts/etc. Then make those the standard stats.
I think this would bring PVP back to life and is what is needed.
Its been LONG documented that Crits deal LESS damage in PVP than non crits (if you dont stack any +crit severity). Because they can merely adjust stats up or down, as a lever, you wouldnt need to worry about BOTH ARP suppression OR Crit Suppression.
So rather than people having 8k ARP, it might default down to 2000 ARP (with no suppression).
This would fix the crit problem AND ARP scaling.
The only thing you would need to do then is make Shocking Execute NOT "piercing damage" since that is the only attack that could be a big problem.
Tenacity would scale TWO things only:
- Damage
- Control
I think your suggestion would make non-PvPers feel much more excited about queuing for PvP matches! I am in an alliance where PvP is very unpopular - I can think of a maximum of 5 people out of hundreds who PvP sometimes - the imbalances and the stomping are just too great for people to care about it.
A question, you may be able to reply to: how do we obtain the changes you suggest above? I've read some discussions on the forums about "what problems exist in pvp" but there is much less interest in discussing "how to obtain the changes". Is it a case of "post on the forum, and hope that Cryptic will notice and apply the suggested changes"? Or do you think that a more "organised" approach (for instance various alliances getting together to lobby) will make ideas a reality?
Also: how would you deal with weapon and armour enchantment gaps between players?
Thank you for your suggestions!
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
But hey if they wanna make a playlist that does just that and is maybe two or three times a day hourly event then go for it to see how people like it. I kinda cringe at having a 15 or so second long cooldown for battlefury lol especially since I'm so used to having 43k power and a 9 sec timer lol.
Worth trying sure? But forcing everyone to have exactly the same build stat wise? CMON.
Right now though it's evident a change has to be made on the back end. PVP used to be great, I loved Gauntlgrym in example. We "just" need lower requirements and a competitive system. I'm not saying it's easy, but can be done.
I think that every player should have the same amount of tenacity, base HP would be 100,000 varying to 150,000 if you focus on it with all the stats and gear. This isn't going to be a complete normalization of gear just because of their business model.
I also would like to bring up my suggestion again of making gear and itemlevel the biggest factor in the matchmaking algorithm
They could announce the changes in advance and even build an entire module around its release.
It would restore pvp and renew interest for a lot of players.
Ayroux, I recognize your name as an old @handle. What was your characters names? Pretty sure I used to run with you...
You had to choose, if you put one more arp via gear = you had low power, Which mean even if you you ignore part of players DR, your power is low and thus dmg is low.
If you had more power and lower arp, well DR negate part of your damage..
And only tenacity where able provide CC immunity, reduce enemies ArP effectivness.
Now majority players run with epic mounts with 2k values of power, arp, def and so one.
Guilds at lv 15 have boons which gives over 5k arp, power over 5k, def over 5k. And I don't even talk about pvp boons.
Player build gear around arp while power get from mount, insignias, campaign boons, and so one. Not mentioned in old neverwinter you had fixed weapon stats/values, now twisted set, new sets gives lot of extra effects. Not mentioned game have way to many stacking mechanics. For one moment your dmg is x, after couple seconds due stacking its x5 higher.
Personally I think for testings, and for casual players need just to split current domination pvp in 2 parts.
A) limited = guild boons, campaign boons, mounts + insignias, + companions provided stats/values disabled.
Thats mean players relay on gear, feats, and own skills.
And only seeing how gear influencing pvp for real, then we can think about other changes.
Lets say we do as ayroux suggest. But then players who have mounts, or are in guilds with pvp and strong offensive/defensive boons will easily beat anyone in fight.
Its same as now, 15 lv heal DC with 20 lv Stronghold boons get in 5vs5 domination pvp and only by using at wills take down other team without any efforts.
Also I am concern about situation, that it could lead to point that players will be unable to inflict any decent damage at all.
Even now player with high tenacity negating high incoming hits.
So imagine what kind situation u will get. Tank or healer = immortal.
Anyways, I would like to see how this idea work in action rather evaluating it on paper.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
For the first 2 months I had GW2, all I did was PvP and never even stepped foot into PvE content because I had the same quality of gear as my opponents and it was so fun to play.
I was stunned when I started NW on PS4 recently and realized I need to grind gear and run all the campaign boons before I would be able to compete in a match. And then to go through all that effort and end up in a team where 3 guys have zero tenacity and just want to make a few quick AD is very demoralizing.
Speaking as a "new player", gear gap is a huge issue. If your goal is to get people like me to start playing your game and build a population, you have to normalize gear/stats/boons.
Denying that is crazy.
Every good player, PvP or PvE, knows that a good PvP build is not the same as a good PvE build. I hate that I have to make a choice on how to spec my GF to either be good at PvP or good at tanking PvE.
I'm sure there are many high end players that can do both well with their current builds, but I'm not a high end player yet, and were talking about growing population here. I can't afford to respec every time I feel like playing a PvP match, so new players are pigeon holes into playing just 1 game mode. Or being mediocre at two. That affects your new player population as well.
As for new players, they can't play PVP because the gear difference is too damn high! I would like item level to appropriately reflect the character stats and so I agree in part.
However, as it stands today, item level is still going to have the best matchmaking results in all its imperfections so your premise is incorrect.
@urabask
1. TR, HRs and GFs need to stop getting their weapon damage increased at this point. For at least the next set of weapons they are insane right now.
2. Probably should make healing insignias a bit weaker alot of people still don't even have lifesteal and heal as much as me with 31% lifesteal on my GWF and with 2 healing insignias.
3. Needs to be WAY LESS PIERCING DAMAGE whats the point of PVP armor when it just gets pierced and you die in one or two hits from rogues/hrs?