Should selling Professions packs in ZEN store be considered a scam?

vida44

So the question from the title.

The price of these items is way unproportional to the real value of them.
In the game you can buy Profession Asset as low as 12.000 AD == 24 ZEN. Yet the price in the ZEN store for a Profession Booster pack is 300ZEN == 150.000AD.
If you want another Overpriced item you can decide to buy Profession Assets pack. That one is basically the same as the one above and it is charged with a price of 1600 ZEN == 800.000AD. (OMG)

There are many more examples of this in the ZEN store (Hero of the North Pack, Blood Rubies, etc etc) but the current ones are on sale now so you can buy them at a 20% discount which still doesn't get close to the real value of them. Hell a 90% sale would put them close to the real value (barely).

A lot of players start threads how they get scammed on the AH for paying too much for the item that is not worth that much. Can this be put in the same category or is this another free market thing?

nameexpired

I think there's a chance for a legendary asset, not sure.
Its the same as the key for a lockbox. A chance you might get something valueable.

That's why I would not consider it a scam. Everything with RNG attached might be considered a scam if you label this as scam.

vida44

nameexpired said:

I think there's a chance for a legendary asset.
Its the same as the key for a lockbox. A chance.

That's why I would not consider it a scam. Everything with RNG attached might be considered a scam if you label this as scam.

There is not. That chance is from a lockbox profession pack.

If you want to base the cost on the most valuable item you can get then a Hero is 50.000AD on the AH. Still overpriced.

greywynd

The game company sets the zen market prices. The players set the AH prices.

micky1p00

greywynd said:

The game company sets the zen market prices. The players set the AH prices.

The value of an item is set by it's supply and demand.
Supply is set by the RNG tables set by the devs. For example Legendary tools vs epic.
Demand is set by the usability of the item as set by the devs. For example if BiS items craftable or not.

In this case all supply is determined directly by the devs. And all demand is set directly and indirectly by the devs, so actually the devs are the right address in this case, and so is the comparison.

greywynd

The devs set the zen value.

The players set the AH prices by what they are willing to pay for ANY given item, regardless of its usage. The more useful/sought after, the higher the price will be. The devs do not, as far as I am aware, control or manage the AH prices.

micky1p00

greywynd said:

The devs set the zen value.

The players set the AH prices by what they are willing to pay for ANY given item, regardless of its usage. The more useful/sought after, the higher the price will be. The devs do not, as far as I am aware, control or manage the AH prices.

Please read again what I wrote.

And as you've said "The more useful/sought after, the higher the price will be." So how is decided what item is more useful and more sought after ?

micky1p00

Yes, the lower the average chance, the higher the price. Because it's lowers supply.
Legendary pack is an example of low drop rate -> high price.

If the cwards would be available again as t.bars or farmable or not important how, their price will drop regardless of the zen drop.

The supply is decided by only one single entity in the game economy, and it's not the players.

So while I wouldn't call the profession pack price a scam. It's definitely not priced correctly.

urabask

greywynd said:

The devs set the zen value.

The players set the AH prices by what they are willing to pay for ANY given item, regardless of its usage. The more useful/sought after, the higher the price will be. The devs do not, as far as I am aware, control or manage the AH prices.

The Devs knew that when they put professions packs in lockboxes that are better than the one in the zen store that it's still going to be posted for less than 300 zen. 300 zen is 3 lockbox keys even. If anything they should just remove it from the store because the AH is always going to be providing them for less as long as they're in lockboxes.

micky1p00 said:

Yes, the lower the average chance, the higher the price. Because it's lowers supply.
Legendary pack is an example of low drop rate -> high price.

If the cwards would be available again as t.bars or farmable or not important how, their price will drop regardless of the zen drop.

The supply is decided by only one single entity in the game economy, and it's not the players.

So while I wouldn't call the profession pack price a scam. It's definitely not priced correctly.

Just because the devs are incompetent doesn't mean it's not a scam. There's no way they're not analyzing lockbox data or AH trends so the idea that they're leaving it there and have no idea that it's priced incorrectly seems like a bit of a stretch.

mysteriasdrassa

Just because something costs more in AH than somewhere else does NOT make it a scam... It's the same in real world.. you can go to a small local store where the price is higher, or go to Walmart and get the exact same thing wayyyy cheaper. Is the local store scamming you? NO, it isnt. Perhaps it's more convenient, closer, etc,, or maybe you would just rather support your local small store owner rather than the Big Box store owned by some faceless corporation gods knows where.
Maybe it's more convenient to buy off the AH than going thru the Zen store for some folks.. Maybe they WANT said item right now and would rather not wait till payday when they can afford the zen. You are then paying for the convenience to get it NOW.... does that mean you are being scammed... HAMSTER NO... it's just plain supply and demand and basic commerce 101

plasticbat

mysteriasdrassa said:

Just because something costs more in AH than somewhere else does NOT make it a scam... It's the same in real world.. you can go to a small local store where the price is higher, or go to Walmart and get the exact same thing wayyyy cheaper. Is the local store scamming you? NO, it isnt. Perhaps it's more convenient, closer, etc,, or maybe you would just rather support your local small store owner rather than the Big Box store owned by some faceless corporation gods knows where.

Maybe it's more convenient to buy off the AH than going thru the Zen store for some folks.. Maybe they WANT said item right now and would rather not wait till payday when they can afford the zen. You are then paying for the convenience to get it NOW.... does that mean you are being scammed... HAMSTER NO... it's just plain supply and demand and basic commerce 101

You got it reverse. OP complains the stuff in Zen store is more expensive than AH.

micky1p00

urabask said:

Just because the devs are incompetent doesn't mean it's not a scam. There's no way they're not analyzing lockbox data or AH trends so the idea that they're leaving it there and have no idea that it's priced incorrectly seems like a bit of a stretch.

Knowing it doesn't make it a scam.

For a scam there must be a false claim / falsification / a lie. There is none, it gives what it says. It's stupidly overpriced, but it's not claimed directly or not directly otherwise.

It must be intentional: Knowing is one thing, not changing on purpose to get gain and not from negligence is another.

And we must rely on that posting for pricing: I think with the RP rpices always way to high on zen store everyone learned to check the AH.

So probably the best description is 'smelly' but 'legal'. (or something like that)
But it does looks bad and with it the trust on the products and opinion on the company in general. -- At the end no one will buy from someone who overprice the value by 10 times.

urabask

micky1p00 said:

urabask said:

Just because the devs are incompetent doesn't mean it's not a scam. There's no way they're not analyzing lockbox data or AH trends so the idea that they're leaving it there and have no idea that it's priced incorrectly seems like a bit of a stretch.

Knowing it doesn't make it a scam.

For a scam there must be a false claim / falsification / a lie. There is none, it gives what it says. It's stupidly overpriced, but it's not claimed directly or not directly otherwise.

It must be intentional: Knowing is one thing, not changing on purpose to get gain and not from negligence is another.

And we must rely on that posting for pricing: I think with the RP rpices always way to high on zen store everyone learned to check the AH.

So probably the best description is 'smelly' but 'legal'. (or something like that)

This is basically like pricing something for six times its price because it's in a different part of a store. It might not be a scam legally speaking but in the general sense it is a scam. If a brick and mortar retail store tried something like this they'd have their state's attorney general on them before they could blink.

beckylunatic

micky1p00 said:

So while I wouldn't call the profession pack price a scam. It's definitely not priced correctly.

What's really nuts is they buffed the contents of the profession asset pack and it's still nowhere near market value due to the assets flooding from VIP keys.

To carry on the retail analogy, buying a profession pack with Zen is like continuing to buy socks from Armani for Armani prices if they sold the exact same socks at Walmart.

micky1p00

beckylunatic said:

micky1p00 said:

So while I wouldn't call the profession pack price a scam. It's definitely not priced correctly.

What's really nuts is they buffed the contents of the profession asset pack and it's still nowhere near market value due to the assets flooding from VIP keys.

To carry on the retail analogy, buying a profession pack with Zen is like continuing to buy socks from Armani for Armani prices if they sold the exact same socks at Walmart.

Actually I think I saw panderus (or someone else) saying that they buffed those packs to include a chance for legendery and a gond and assured drops for epic. But I think it never went live. IIRC it was just before mod 10.

beckylunatic

It might have just been on the we-meant-to list, you're right.

qexotic

urabask said:

micky1p00 said:

urabask said:

Just because the devs are incompetent doesn't mean it's not a scam. There's no way they're not analyzing lockbox data or AH trends so the idea that they're leaving it there and have no idea that it's priced incorrectly seems like a bit of a stretch.

Knowing it doesn't make it a scam.

For a scam there must be a false claim / falsification / a lie. There is none, it gives what it says. It's stupidly overpriced, but it's not claimed directly or not directly otherwise.

It must be intentional: Knowing is one thing, not changing on purpose to get gain and not from negligence is another.

And we must rely on that posting for pricing: I think with the RP rpices always way to high on zen store everyone learned to check the AH.

So probably the best description is 'smelly' but 'legal'. (or something like that)

This is basically like pricing something for six times its price because it's in a different part of a store. It might not be a scam legally speaking but in the general sense it is a scam. If a brick and mortar retail store tried something like this they'd have their state's attorney general on them before they could blink.

Actually, something similar to that is perfectly legal in the UK...even though it is frowned upon from a great height. A large chain store can sell a product in just one branch for a seriously high price (not many times the price, just quite a bit higher) for a minimum period of time. They can then legitimately sell it at the correct lower price in other branches and claim that it is being sold at a big discount once the minimum time period has elapsed. Although I think someone was trying to get that little loophole closed.

plasticbat

First, this is not the same store. Cryptic is selling for one price and the other vendors (players) are posting in another price. GM has its MSRP, GM distributors can sell that in another price and car brokers can sell at yet another price.

This happens even in the same store because we are talking about 2 kinds of "currency".
A store can sell a product for $X. One can also get the same product if they use Y store "points".
That also is the reason why we have cross border shopping.

If you look at the same product such as a book, in Canada, the book itself has the price of both US and Canada. I just pick a book to show an example. The book itself has this printed in its back (not a sticker but printed):

US $37.95
Can $55.95

litaaers

urabask said:

but in the general sense it is a scam.

micky1p00 said:

it doesn't make it a scam.

Oh, now DON'T start that again....

btairborne

It's no scam, it just means Cryptic has to decrease the supply in order to have any demand for it. Prices off the AH are set off zen pricing. In this case supply is way over demand so AD prices have fallen.

mysteriasdrassa

null
Yeah I got it reversed,,, but still, it works either way.. Walmart isn't scamming you if they lure you in with the cheaper price.. once again.. basic commerce 101

vida44

So we again have a stupid "business" (I will refer scam like this) model that makes some profit for Cryptic ( to uninformed players) instead of selling it for a more realistic price WITH updated items in those packs which will in the end generate more profit. Which will in return make decisions like "pay the keys to get the loot so we can profit" less likely to happen.

It is disturbing how neglect the source of their funding is.

loboguild

Don't know it's a scam, but it's certainly one of those "oh no we're too busy/lazy/stupid to manage the easiest stuff ingame" things.

Also not new. The first ones to hint at the issue was a fansite on March 25, 2016. That was ten months ago and I even brought the topic to the forum in April: http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1214795/profession-packs-outdated-and-overpriced.

I also remember an announced change, but it apparently never happened. At least the tooltip didn't change and I'm certainly not going to test any packs ​​

samaka

As mentioned above, the Zen Store really has some prices that are way out of line with the AH pricing.

For example, Blood Rubies. These go for 800 Zen (400k AD at 500AD/Zen) for a single one, or 3 for 2000 Zen (1mil AD, or 333k each at 500AD/Zen). On the AH the going price per Blood Ruby is appx. 35k, an entire order of magnitude and then some less.

Who is ever going to buy Blood Rubies from the Zen Store when it is considerably cheaper to just convert your Zen into AD and buy literally 10x as many Rubies from the AH?

wylonus

zen prices are overpriced, wonder why it cost 1,500 zen for companion pack, and get crappy green items due to ugly RNG, they seem dont included any "leadership" items when we need it, we dont want crafter guys, it often we get lucky in once in a blue moon to get a green guy after merging 4 low tiers guys.

we are being flooded with crafter guys instead of some hard to get access items.
leadership suffer the most of all.

using extra crafters for Strongholds are often get capped and bottlenecked, there no need for "crafter vouchers' for them, just my opinion, it should retire that voucher since we are being overflow with crafters from missions in attempts to create the green crafters.

zen market are full of cluttered mess and it need clean up and more refined and reasonable prices. i dont want to spend 5,000 zen (50 dollars value) on those mounts, not many has that kind of budgets, are they aiming for deep pocket whales?

plasticbat

wylonus said:

zen prices are overpriced, wonder why it cost 1,500 zen for companion pack, and get crappy green items due to ugly RNG, they seem dont included any "leadership" items when we need it, we dont want crafter guys, it often we get lucky in once in a blue moon to get a green guy after merging 4 low tiers guys.

we are being flooded with crafter guys instead of some hard to get access items.
leadership suffer the most of all.

using extra crafters for Strongholds are often get capped and bottlenecked, there no need for "crafter vouchers' for them, just my opinion, it should retire that voucher since we are being overflow with crafters from missions in attempts to create the green crafters.

zen market are full of cluttered mess and it need clean up and more refined and reasonable prices. i dont want to spend 5,000 zen (50 dollars value) on those mounts, not many has that kind of budgets, are they aiming for deep pocket whales?

Companion pack does not have any profession asset and it is 1400 Zen.
Profession Asset pack is 1600 Zen.
Adventurer's Helper pack is 1500 Zen but it does not have any profession asset.

If you want leadership item, get leadership special pack which is pretty cheap. Not sure about its RNG.

wylonus

sorry, i was talking about 2 different things.

companion packs always give runes, and they are far outgrown and so outdated.

profession packs coming from lockboxes are the jokes, they stick with alchemy, jewelers, and black ice far too long and overused, and leadership from lockbox seem retired, and the zen keep getting common resources, that make packs worthless and not on par with value, if we get from and we expected better quality items, and we still get tier 1 items when we can send crafters out on gathering missions.
that make them too expensive for zen > converted cost of ADs, 300 zens = 90,000 ADs, and items collected from old profession kits gathered only worth few copper coins.

plasticbat

wylonus said:

sorry, i was talking about 2 different things.

companion packs always give runes, and they are far outgrown and so outdated.

profession packs coming from lockboxes are the jokes, they stick with alchemy, jewelers, and black ice far too long and overused, and leadership from lockbox seem retired, and the zen keep getting common resources, that make packs worthless and not on par with value, if we get from and we expected better quality items, and we still get tier 1 items when we can send crafters out on gathering missions.
that make them too expensive for zen > converted cost of ADs, 300 zens = 90,000 ADs, and items collected from old profession kits gathered only worth few copper coins.

I was talking about leadership special pack from AH. I think it is around 25K AD each.
Old lockbox is also available in AH.

wylonus

i still have older boxes saved, hadnt got chances to get keys in awhile, i stop getting VIP.

armadeonx

I strongly suspect that these packs are one of the 'forgotten' items listed in the Zen store. I'm sure if Cryptic put a competent person in charge of reviewing & managing the store we'd see either price changes, content changes or complete removal of some items.