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The state of the DC (It's the bubble situation all over again)
adinosii
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
I don't normally rant.
Honestly.
I do, however, feel like doing that now.
The reason is the number of players that seem to consider strategy and tactics to be completely irrelevant, and only rely on a broken/overpowered mechanism to get through content.
Yes, I am referring to the practice of basically "requiring" two AC DCs spamming AA to get the group through Svardborg.
This is just like the habit people had of relying on paladins with a "permabubble", where they did not even bother to get out of red zones, knowing quite well that the bubble would keep them alive, no matter what, so there was no need to "play properly".
Lazy, sloppy and annoying.
I practically never do PUGs, but If I did, I am told that I would not be welcome in a mSVA group. Why? Well, I'm a DO DC. I don't do AA - and I refuse to respec to a mode that encourages bad gameplay by relying on an overpowered mechanism....for me, that takes the fun out of playing.
Honestly.
I do, however, feel like doing that now.
The reason is the number of players that seem to consider strategy and tactics to be completely irrelevant, and only rely on a broken/overpowered mechanism to get through content.
Yes, I am referring to the practice of basically "requiring" two AC DCs spamming AA to get the group through Svardborg.
This is just like the habit people had of relying on paladins with a "permabubble", where they did not even bother to get out of red zones, knowing quite well that the bubble would keep them alive, no matter what, so there was no need to "play properly".
Lazy, sloppy and annoying.
I practically never do PUGs, but If I did, I am told that I would not be welcome in a mSVA group. Why? Well, I'm a DO DC. I don't do AA - and I refuse to respec to a mode that encourages bad gameplay by relying on an overpowered mechanism....for me, that takes the fun out of playing.
Hoping for improvements...
5
Comments
IF the person came to do dps in fbi get 1 shot are two conditions : pulled first and 2nd the tank didnt manage the aggro.
WHEN you spec to do dps its normal to get 1 shot or high damage.
If it goes against what people see is the "norm" you are going to get hit with some trife. You need to find and make friends with people who are willing to be a little slower than another cleric, which is asking a lot from people if you think a little bit a bout it.
DO Cleric has some really cool things going for it, especially in terms of Damage reduction buffs and debuffs. But its going to take some nerfs before people look at that style of cleric for anything
I personally think the overall DC is fine, as apart from bugs, the DC is a pure support specialist, so it makes sense for them to have healing and strong buffs (but barely any DPS).
It's just AA which needs some tweaking.
Like the bubble, AA has made people so complacent that they don't bother trying to dodge. It has made for some frustrating experiences when I use Knight's Valor...
Worst of all, some of the lazier pugs don't realize that only 1 AA works at a time.
(Even if you see multiple ballz surrounding your character, you only absorb 4 hits and then the powershare is gone. The next AA casted overrides the powershare of the initial AA. Imo it's more efficient if one DC uses AA and the other HG).
I have a HDPS GF who can tank any t1, t2 dungeon and can tank Orcus too by changing some powers to a more tanky spec, BUT, I can't tank giants in FBI.
I know I'm not tank spec'ed and I'm not supposed to tank FBI but, what I'm saying is, giants and trolls in FBI can kill easier than the bosses. I've seen very good tanks dying for trolls in the cavern but tanking the bosses easily, including Hati.
The giant "combo" is completely ridiculous, if u get struck by one of its hit you are dead. It's dash, then boulder, then stab with the club, but you die because your character stands up slowly like a slug without any chance of defense.
It's easy to dodge the giants as a ranged dps, but not that easy to dodge as a melee dps without AA. You will end up dodging more than dpsing. And a GWF for example is a DPSer class, not a Dodger Class if you get to my meaning.
You can't dodge EVERYTHING, and if you do, you lose a lot of dps, making the fight longer and more difficult, because the idea of dps, at least in the other games I played is to keep dpsing while avoiding mechanisms that kill you, not to dodge without doing anything, and as a melee dps you really can't avoid ALL melee hits from the giants.
I don't play on my SW for like 1 month but I remember being one shotted by Hati in FBI more than once. So, is KV/Bubble REQUIRED? Not all tanks use them. Yeah I know, as a SW I shouldn't pull aggro, but sometimes Hati does his dashing-bite and you take it even if you are not facing him directly, let's say, by his side.
So, in the end, people like AA because it helps you to avoid those ridiculous one shot kills. I know my GF isn't tank spec'ed but sometimes giants kill me with their swings even when I'm BLOCKING. How can I avoid that? running out of melee? Well, I'm a melee toon, right?
I'm not saying AA shouldn't be changed. But before they change AA they need to fix some HAMSTER damage from some creatures.
I agree that the game becomes easy mode with AA where a CW or SW can tank bosses with it, and I agree that a lot of people don't know how to avoid things because of how AA works, but, let's be honest.
- You play Resident Evil 4, you got a Rocket Launcher from the ground and you are about to face Salazar, will you DISCARD the rocket launcher and try to kill him with a handgun?
- You play Final Fantasy 10. You got Yojimbo. You gonna fight Penance for 80 consecutive minutes without using Zanmato (a 30sec kill) to get the same result? Maybe if you want a challenge for fun, you gonna do it ONCE to say you are capable of doing it and then you are going to use Zanmato everytime from now on.
I won't give more examples, you got what I meant. If you have legit ways to do something easier, you will do it even if it's overpowered.
AA isn't a cheat, a bug exploit, it's just overpowered.
You can complain about AA's "overpowerness", but you can't blame people who prefer to do things the easy way.
I will finish my post with a sentence: If I can get to my girlfriend's house in 5 minutes by car, why would I spend 30 minutes by going on foot?
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
Yes I'm including FBI and mSVA - those ARE possible without AA. Let's face this - our players have just grown complacent and refuse to do more work because they can depend on a clutch. The creatures are perfectly fine - the mechanisms are there for certain reasons. Take off that clutch, learn how to walk on your feet!
And why do they need 2 AC DCs to spam AA? It's not for the power buffs - since they cancel out each other, it's for the immunity. Shame on those that depended on this.
I have regrettably recently swap to AC DC, for certain reasons which are unrelated to AA immunity and will most likely swap back soon after things are done. But if I see someone who rushes in, not wait for the tank to initiate and expect my AA to save him... *coughs* I deliberately use my HG instead.
And true, DCs are one of the more balanced classes actually - except for AA. Fix AA!
PS: Sorry for the rant - just really tired of people asking for AC DCs (and before that AP DCs for the bubble) to cover their own flaws.
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance
The way the game is, healing just doesnt really accomplish much, whereas AA is the ONE ability that does kinda fulfill that "healer" role. Its disappointing that dungeon mobs fall into the following scenarios:
Mobs dont hit that hard and I can lifesteal my health back (dont need a healer)
Mob attacks are super telegraphed and I can dodge (dont need a healer)
Mob will one shot so cant heal (dont need a healer)
Thats overly simplified, but in all of those scenarios, healing abilities dont particularly help. AA does allow us to perform our role (keep our group alive) which to me, is a good thing. The biggest downfall is that AA allows us to ignore certain mechanics (the turtles steam attack or drufi's winter call for examples) which perhaps is silly and should be addressed.
But the general calls for nerfing AA because it shields my group from "normal" attacks? I don't really get that; I personally think the DC (and the healadin!) SHOULD be able to shield you from that giants boulder attack. In an alternative world where instead of everyone insta-dying to every attack, they instead got "hurt" where chunks of hitpoints were removed, a simple encounter spell (bastion of health lets pretend) would keep everyone alive. And no one would have a problem with that I dont think. In the harder dungeons, people would get "hurt" more, with bigger chunks of hitpoints being removed in quicker fashion. But thats ok, because the DC has stacked power and crit and recovery to keep those heals coming. And that would be ok too I think. But a DC levels a character and stacks power and recovery and action point gain to keep the group alive via a daily is too overpowered in comparison?
The above totally makes me look like I'm completely blind to the situation. I dont think that I am and I'm certain AA is gonna get some sort of "balance" but I think the bigger issue is that there really arent alternatives to AA (through DC or Healadins).
Now look at this from another angle. I personally build my GWF and DC to solo all content, a balanced offense and defense. With the current meta this requires slightly more mitigation because most high end content can 1 shot you. In a perfect world all classes would do this, however content would take longer to complete and the need for a tank or healer would be less. This was the case in earlier mods. Having said that, if you have an AA spamming DC or perma bubble OP in your group (previous mods) and the DPS is sub par because you decided to balance your offense/defense you can expect messages like "Why is this taking so long?", "Where's the DPS?", "Why would you run that build?"
In short, there's just as much pressure on DPS to deal out max damage as there is for DCs to run AA. How you chose to let that effect you is up to you. I personally don't care what anyone runs or what they say about my DPS or my AA. I'm built to not even need a group. Build and run what you want, screw the community...
One shots do need to stay as enemies attack, for the most part, once every 99999999999999999999999 years and it gets hard to dodge only if there's a lot of them that can cover like half of a fighting zone with red circles (like giants in fbi some times).
People have got used to AA so much they can't conceive beating dungeons without it and will use any excuse to defend it when, in reallity, it does trivialize content way more than even the 20 secs permabubble and superfray ever did as it's an abomination that has the advantages of both (damage ommunity and lol dps boost), at least the bubble didn't buff your dps and superfray didn't you make you immortal, you can ask gwfs who rushed at Orcus as soon as the gf activated that skill. AA is a spammable, zero risk ridiculously high reward power that needs to be put in its place.
Ok, please remind me what's the commong thing you see in virtually all neverwinter videos, guides and builds in action (mostly in pve at least).
High level gf showing lesser geared ones how to tank fbi? AA spam.
Whatever dps class running a dungeon and showing rotations to maximize damage output? AA spam.
How to kill hati/dragon turtle/drufi? AA spam.
Trying/comparing enchantments in dungeon runs? AA spam.
How to tank orcus as a medium geared gf? AA spam.
Showing any pve group content or strategies in neverwinter? AA spam.
In now way, shape or form any class in the game should provide damage immunitiy and nope, the bolder attack of the giants should continue to be the one shot it currently it is, why should a dps or a tank survive that attack? And heck, even tanks should get one shotted to certain attacks if those aren't dodged, there's a reason for which it's called an epic dungeon, if you don't dodge that attack you should not survive it.
The AA going down fast argument doesn't really mean anything, AA spam build (is it jarek's?) has massive ap gain and you can cast a new one very fast while still under the effect of the previous one and as enemies don't attack fast enough you can keep it up almost all or all the time, I see it being taken out only if the protected player never tries to avoid getting hit and if it's being attacked by multiple enemies at the same time but that's it.
@kallephi#0836 your gf should not get 1 shotted through the shield by those giants, maybe latency issues or you got hit before you could raise it? What are your dr and hipoints at? From what I remember my tac gf has never been 1 shotted through the shield by any normal attack from them and his stats are pretty mediocre to be honest (like 148k hp and around 82% dr) and I'm iron vanguard so I don't have that cheap steel defense to carry and save me.
@ichimaruginx I'm sick of seeing people asking for AC DC as well and refusing to run dungeons without them.
Fingers crossed so Mr. Patch aka nerf hammer gives anointed army the love it deserves.
For the majority of players, if running AA means you finish FBI in 35 minutes verses no AA and finishing in over an hour, you go with AA. Time management is real. With HE Farming, Dailies, Weeklies, Salvaging, SH Dragon Runs, on multiple characters you don't always have the luxury of doing things the "honorable" way. AA is what it is, get over it. If/when it gets nerfed the community will adjust. Until then creating boo hoo threads about AA is super lame. No one cares.
What I'm saying is, if you take a melee hit from giants on a melee toon and you are not a tank you are dead. And yes, the "lot of mobs covering great part of the fighting zone" is what happens most in FBI.
I've seen a lot of gwfs being one-shotted on FBI, how can they avoid that? By turning themselves into a Dodging class instead of dps? Because if they dodge all the time they won't dps.
A troll's small boulder can one-shot my SW, is that fun?
One shots shouldn't come from mobs. I'd be ok with bosses one-shotting non-tanks, but not a ridiculous troll among 7 more trolls.
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
At least dc's are back in the game. Also we talk about the bad dc like its a 2 hours job to get a lvl 70 dc and spamm AA.No you need ad and time invested.
Yes for 2 years i was divine and changed it to ac after the fing FBI and sva.
The problem is the constant grinding and bad rng drops not the dc's. Overpowered aa is a solution (a wrong one if you want) but still a solution. We have to run fbi 50 times for a set piece to drop and esva 300 times?
We need that time cut to half,how? aa dc bam wham thank you ma'am.
So these one-shot mechanics, can either be avoided by dodging, or moving out of the area, or by the use of AA. The point is to avoid the damage.
How you avoid that damage is irrelevant. You can find a group of people who want to do things properly, a minority sure, but not so hard to find. Heck, once you've done the content hundreds of times, doing it the way it was meant to be, becomes more fun. A refreshing approach for sure.
For most people though, they just want fast and efficient. Personally, I love playing a healer, but since there is virtually no healing content at end game, I play a buffer.. yes, an AA 'spamming' AC DC.
CN is trivial once a team is at 3.5K, and that's not a big deal. Why are we farming gear? why upgrade everything if not to make the high level content trivial, or close enough? That's the whole point. We are aiming to get there... to feel that power...
Is it annoying that clerics are shoved into one category, and all others are dismissed? yes... of course...
But removing/nerfing AA will either result in people adapting to the new thing... or people just stopping the game altogether.
Even WoW, once you have your Mythic Raiding gear, allows you to pretty much carry a couple of players through it... rendering even that content much much easier...
So again, how a team avoids the damage is not the issue... as long as they avoid it... I would much rather get mechanics (like Poison from Hati, Dragon Empowerers in DF etc...) than more one-shots...
I'm concerned because the AA's damage immunity bug was reported immediately many weeks ago and no fix has been implemented. Maybe they have the DC rework in the pipeline so they prefer to release it as whole instead of releasing a single fix: this is the only explanation I have.
Despite the above, I'm an AA spammer since mod 6 as a virtuous before and as a righteous today.
Back in mod 6, the main reason for it was the T2 dungeons where the main strategy was to keep the OP bubble up with GoF while AA prevented the OP "explosion". Melee classes/players love giving continuity to their action by ignoring the red areas: it means that the OP took so many damages until he died and AA was a way to mitigate that.
If the 100% immunity bug is fixed, some unwanted behaviors will be fixed as well: for example ignoring the call of winter would be impossible in FBI or covering the runes in SVA would be a must and a better coordination should be needed.
The first step should be to remove the 100% damage immunity.
Another way to limit the AA efficiency could be faster DoT and/or bigger mobs pack like in the old CN: the hailburst in eSVA and the manticore DoT in FBI go in that direction, but the DoT rate is too low imo while I suspect that cleanse is bugged.
All the bosses are designed to slam the players with single big hits or AoE, but no fast DoTs. The only exception I know is the semi-permanent AoE from the Traven's bomb when sorrounded by the mobs in ECC: AA is not so great in that case and it works as a temporary mitigation power (as it should be).
Faster DoT damages give the healers a role, even more if under everfrost damage and in that case instead of AA, I would use more BoH/HW.
Another demonstration is PvP where DoT powers are widely used and AA is not taken into account (as far as I know - I'm not a PvP lover).
This is the main difference between the OP bubble and AA: the former was a permanent damage immunity regardless the type of damage, the latter is sensible against DoT and this property can be used to create richer and more dynamic contents.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance
,after that statement is clear you havent been playing your DC for that long or as mutch,
half DC's powers are either obsolete or bugged not aplying on-hit buffs/debufs/companion, mounts or feat procs while half the feats are obsolete or compleatly useless ever since mod 5 launched, and some have even been nerfed since,
leaving only 1 viabile path for the DC:
Righteous AA/buff builds that so verry many build on to the point it now looks overpowered to those not knewing that it takes hundreeds of milions of AD and again hundreeds of hours of playtime to get to
and since ''the state of the DC'' is the topic, here are few:
powers:
-astral seal - nerfed to the point it's only still used becose it builds divine but using it in larger encounters gets u ''love'' for causing lag !
-Lance of faith soposed to be highest damaging at-will attack but has it's base damage at same value it had when max lvl was 60 and max hp like 30k
-Sun burst has a limit of 5 affected targets as folows: enemy targets damaged + friendly affected by heal component= 5
-chains of blazing light is not influenced by controll str stat, does not trigger most active comnpanions on-hit procs
-sacred flame dmg and tem hp are also at the values they wore before mod 5, when max HP was like 30k, like rly how will 5k temp hp that does not stack help anyone ?
-daunting light does not trigger most on-hit effects from companions/mounts
-divine glow is broke since forever , is counts as a attack ! but only on friendly targets !?, will try to trigger on-hit-attack-procs on friendly targets, but not on foes !, hence the ''invulnerabile'' floater on affected party members affected by it if u have any companions that add procs like slows/dots to encounter powers
list goes on ....
i'll not ever go over the class features as there are only 3-4 that actualy work right
feats:
-clense only procs once after entering combat, or rather has a cooldown that end with combat, why ?
-templar's domain never procs (on dealing dmg 25% chance for 30% armor penetration)
righteous:
living fire - when you are below 30% hp u deal up to 25% extra dmg ... like that will ever happen, you are either alive above that value or dead
-bear your sins - soposed to get fixed on 26'th ian ,... lesa hope that is soo
-condeming gaze - adds 'condemned' to foes , soposed to stack 5 times for a debuff , instead will only aply once that will refresh after expire , never geting to 5 stacks means will never debuff
faithful
-divine intervention - 25%chance to give allies 5-8k temp hp ?! realy usefull this one....
-final acts - power stat increase when under 30% HP ,... same as ''livinf fire'',.. will never be
virtuous:
....................
i'll just stop ,... i tink everyone gets the picture
However I do not feel there's only 1 viable build at this time. I've seen and helped build some pretty cool niche builds that focus on power sharing, gift of faith, haste, DPS, as well as other variations of the current meta 'Righteous". DC much like the OP can be a jack of all trades.
Also a lot of those broken feats and powers that are not working, aren't very good even if they were lol.
Bugged or broken powers don't have anything to do with viable builds or making a class balanced or not. DCs can have builds that can DPS, Heal and/Or Buff. This is what she means by being balanced.
AA makes everyone lazy, just like the Bubble used to be. It's like if they had taken ITF and Bubble and put it under 1 single power. Anyone who needs to rely on it needs to learn to play again instead of face smashing their keyboards until things are dead. That means MOVE out of red, CC enemies and worry less about personal damage.
with over 2000 hours played on dc i did try all builds out there ,...
there are few other that are definitly nice to play like divine oracle on virtuous path having a less agressive playstile, witch can do alot more def buffing and healing but sacrificing 90% of the dps AC-AA build can do.
Can do oracle on Righteous path that can do dps but loses the power buffs,...
any deviation from the Righteous AA build will definitly do either less healiing, less dmg and definitly less buffing then u can put out there for your party.
If you have noticed - whatever lack of perfection you pointed out on those skills - didn't prevent most of them from being used. For example - you are a DPS AC DC - did the points you stated made you stop using LoF, Chains and DL?
Half of the feats are broken or obsolete you said, I assume you are running a DPS build without bear your sins and condemning gaze then? (Bear your sins is getting fixed fortunately)
Then I do have to laugh - If you want to to discredit someone - BETTER CHECK ALL your facts before you post them.
Why? Condemning Gaze worked fine - yes I tested myself and there are others out there who had tested too. Very reputable people - (Thanks @michela123 and those that help him/her with the debuff google sheet), kindly head there and you will find your proof. After seeing your statement, I can no longer take your post with any grain of salt.
YOU are apparently the one "using your own words" DCs has some bugs (which class doesn't? What game are you playing here?
You have proved that with your own statement that the most needed one is AA since: That's starting to sound like too good to be true aka Overpowered - hence AA needs a fix.
DCs will be and would always be very viable even without AA. AA is the thing which makes AA DCs so high in demand and that's why it's unhealthy. If you felt that without AA, DC will cease to exist, then apparently you are the one that have not been playing prior DC rework or even prior AP DC became popular. CWs didn't disappear when LM got nerfed...
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance
Second, most DCs won't have astral shield available to protect a dps when they clearly use break the spirit + divine glow + chains.
And a single troll won't throw 4 boulders at the same dps character because they do it from range and a group won't take 4 boulders to engage it.
I know what I'm talking about, I run FBI at least 5 times a day in 2 different toons and in different groups since it was launched. I've ran it more than 300 times already.
There's a difference between Practice and Theory, and I mean no offense but your words come more from theory than from practice.
I never said we need AA to survive, I just said it helps to mitigate some ridiculous one-shots and it makes life easier. Don't act like ALL one-shots in the game can be avoided.
If you are a CW, a SW, the group runs towards the melt ice wall and the tank doesn't taunt a troll left behind, then the CW or SW who is the last to join the wall is hit by the boulder. And he will be dead like it happened some times to my SW.
Even if you slot Astral Shield you will probably be far from the last person. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes a troll comes from a cave and throws a boulder at that SW or CW.
HAMSTER happens, and I won't type every situation where you can be one-shotted because you know it can happen.
So please, stop trying to counter everything I say with your theories.
I don't need a "for your information" message from you because I know my stuff. I know a lot (not everything) about the classes I play, the dungeons I run. I'm a good player, so please, I ask, no more "fyi" irony messages, ok? Ty
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
also no , i am dps build running with both ''bear your sins'' and ''condemning gaze'',,.. not running a standard build that google will spit out and no i do not like sharing !, sitting at 3.2k gs that can solo boses like orcus with rank8's enchants spaming AA with a 2-3 sec delay when i am vulnerabile and still score crits close to 1mil dmg, this i knew is just wrong !
I do however nead to apologise, was not trying to discredit, only wanted to point out that DC class does not nead a nerf on AA, what it neads is a compleate rework, a ''class re-balance'' of feats and specialy the many bugged powers as we are forced to use the one working build that I personaly would not be using if i had the option.
Fact is this aint the class i made 5 years ago when i created the toon, i wanted to play suport, DC was and i still belive it should be a suport class not a rambo-stile-1man-kill-all... thing.
My DC is my main and oldest toon, got 14 respec tokens on it alwready weiting for the day it gets fixed
@kallephi#0836 Most time, if you have proper CC, you don't have to kill the orc in 1 hit. Just keep him stunlocked until it dies. Most classes have 1 or 2 skills that can CC, if the whole party actually uses them, it can easily be done. There are many things that can happen in FBI, especially 1 shots (though many can be avoided and having KV helps and a good tank helps). Personally I don't see that as a bad thing. It keeps the players on their toes. I've ran the majority of my FBI without AA and I can say that it is much more fun and I have no trouble tanking the multiple giants (As long as the orc doesn't call re-reinforcements and the DPS is good) without any wipes.
Fact is, FBI and MSVA are the HARDEST content in the game, deaths are bound to happen. Trivialising content with immunity spamming is ridiculous. If you can't handle some deaths, I'm sure we can find a friendlier game for you :P
oh and "Second, most DCs won't have astral shield available to protect a dps when they clearly use break the spirit + divine glow + chains." - That's because everyone insists on AA, so DCs are forced to use chains for AP. If that wasn't the case, they could easily replace chain with Astral Shield.
And my point in the topic is that: I agree AA is overpowered but don't blame people who like to do things the easy way. Then I gave the girlfriend's house as an example.
I don't care dying once or three times in a dungeon, I don't care for perfect runs with 0 deaths. I just said AA helps with some one-shots and at least FOR ME, I like AA because it helps me to avoid some of those one-shots.
I ran FBI twice without AA once it was launched, so I have no need to run it in 20 more minutes just because it's more fun, because it's harder. Those 20 minutes could be used to run another FBI or to watch some series like Big Bang Theory.
AA situation won't change because new enchantments are coming and they scale with power, so people will still look for AA DCs even if they remove the immunity from AA because they will want more damage from their enchants.
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
I disagree on your opinion regarding melee dps classes, sure a giant can crush them like an insect but if they attack them without waiting for the tank(s) to aggro first then by all means they should get one shotted as many times it takes until they learn that fbi is not etos or elol where they can run ahead of the tanks and murder everything with total impunity thanks to a balanced hp, def and lifesteal, that's the problem with these dungeons, dps guys are used to the easy ones and they get upset because they can't facetank a giant nor survive a bolder attack from them, it is a t3 dungeon and mistakes should end up in deaths.
@rinat114 is a great gwf and has stated she has run fbi without without AA cleric and I believe her, it would be good to hear her opinion on this matter, she perhaps could give fellow melee dps guys some tips so they have an easier time in that dungeon, they just need to get that they can't and shouldn't be able to facetank t3 enemies by theselves.
Gwfs can avoid getting one shotted in fbi by keeping in mind it is supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the game and also basic things such as not running ahead of the group and keeping an eye on red zones. Yes, some times there are way too many red circles but these are one of the few reasons, besides one shots, that dungeons can be somewhat or really challenging to groups depending on what classes make them up. Gwfs and all other classes do and should dodge at times (well, gwf has sprint that can fail to save him/her at times), you should not be able to dps 100% of the time because of being immune to damage, people just got used to the comfort of AAA (abominable anointed army) so they get upset if they actually have to stop attacking for a few secs in order to dodge attacks. How could you call fbi an epic dungeon if you could just dps 100% of the time and forget about everything else? Alll dps classes have a way to get out of red circles and they should be forced to do it in combat in the only t3 dungeon the game currently has in live.
As for your sw comment, it is a ranged dps class and as such is supposed to be ultra squishy, the enemies of the only t3 in the game should be able to one shot, if they hit very hard in normal areas such as somi, lonelywood and darwen valley, why shouldn't able to 1 shot in the hardest dungeon in the game? Running ahead/behind the group should be punished with a 1 shot and the same goes if attacking enemies that are not aggroed by the tank(s).
Besides, thanks to AA and correct me if I am wrong, the ac dc spammer build (at least against 1 enemy) can be the tankiest character in the game, tankier than ops and gfs, that needs to be looked at when balancing the dc, it's absolutely ridiculous.
@kallephi#0836 I also am going to comment your answer to other person who had quoted you.
Yes, the tactic of controlling the orc is situational and some fights can't be avoided but it is a t3 dungeon and by all means it should have its tricky and hard parts.
Not having astral shield slotted is the dc's fault so they and their teammates should get 1 shotted as a consequence, it's the price they should pay for focussing way too much on apg to keep abominable bubble-super fray - anointed army up all the time. If they don't slot AS, AAA is not ready and they don't bother even trying to dodge or simply they forgot how to due to perma damage immunity then that run should be a 1 shot fest for everyone, it's fair that things are that way.
You shouldn't put AAA and mitigation in the same sentence as it's incorrect, if regarding AAA I think it's better to replace "mitigation" or "damage mitigation" with "absolute damage immunity". You said it yourself, bad things happen and it should be that way in epic content, all one shots shouldn't be possible to be avoided and negated otherwise where's the epic aspect of the dungeon?
I think you're a very good player and like you told the guy you responded to, I mean no offense to you. I believe you should consider t3 dungeons (okay, there's only fbi at the moment) should be and are significantly harder than the rest otherwise why calling them tier 3 if they'd be just as easy lower leve ones? You seem to love the comfort of AAA and seem to have the luxury of always having an AAA spammer when running fbi but that shouldn't make you expect that dungeon to be challenge and death free. AAA makes fbi significantly easier by avoiding one shots, boss mechanics, etc.
On the same note, they'll most likely fix this with the DC rework it seems, because a good portion of people, including me, reported this when it happened, on maybe, it was either very late october or it happened on november 3rd. Not sure about the particular date but the point is, it's been a while and they seem to not plan to fix this until the rework, this is just me guessing that part tho. So that actually had me a bit upset with them. This was something with AA they could have fixed in my view, asap. Just basically saying on the whole, they just need to fix this 100% immune bug cuz the simple facts are, this gets fix, the laziness will be fixed from that big dps crowd that's apparently too fat fingered to move/dodge danger.
I know it's possible to do FBI without AA, I've done it myself, but I'm talking about one-shots.
Again, for the third time, I'm not saying AA is ok, I'm not saying AA is needed. I just said AA makes life easier and if you have an easy way to do something you will do it. And AA helps with some one-shotting.
I've seen very very good gwfs dying on giants, it's something inevitable sometimes. When I mean very good gwf, I mean very good, not an average gwf.
I always run with groups capable of doing it in 19-22 minutes because I have a nice friendlist and they sometimes send me tells asking me to join. I don't like to name people in the forums but I've seen awesome melee players dying on giants in FBI.
Sometimes it just happens.
You won't do 10 FBI runs with 0 deaths to giants on a melee toon, no matter how HAMSTER awesome you are, trust me.
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
And yes, I like AA, it makes fbi faster. I've done like 85 FBI runs on my GF alt and I'm sick of it, still no helmet. There's no fun in grinding a dungeon 80 times for a piece, so I don't care for the challenge anymore, I just want the loot.
It was a challenge when I ran when I was 3.1k gs on my SW, it was really fun to watch my progress as a SW but now it's just a farming place for me. I know it's meant to be hard, and hell, if I can do it in a easier way, then I'm gonna do it in an easier way.
My problem with AA is more a love for Hastening Light (I know it works with any daily, not just AA), which increases my GF dps by a lot by letting me casting Knight's Challenge more often. Also, due to the mechanisms of Knight's Challenge AA helps me a lot staying alive.
Since 99% of the tanks I run FBI and MSVA with don't use KV and Bubble, I need that AA to stay alive against Hati and Drufi.
I wouldn't need AA if a tank used KV or Bubble on Hati.
I'm not hypocrit, I like AA the way it is but I'm not here to say "don't change AA". I even agreed it is overpowered the way it is. Again, I just said it helps mitigating (avoiding in other words), some of the one-shots).
It's still funny how Drufi hits me for 60k and a troll's boulder hits me for 100-120k.
I'm just accustomed to games where a good run means no deaths. I played WoW for years and a death in that game would 99% of the time screw a boss fight, no matter if the dead person was a dps, healer or tank. There, if you died, you were a bad player or it was the healer's or tank's fault, there was no such "mechanisms that can't be avoided". But in Neverwinter it's "normal" to die a couple times in a dungeon. Unavoidable stuff is normal.
So in the end I'm just not happy with these deaths that can't be avoided, and I hug AA.
I'm ok dying once, twice, even three times. But do you know those FBI runs with 40 total deaths? 7 from the cw, 5 from the tank, 8 from the dc. That's not fun in my opinion
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World