Help!!! PvP Faithful AC turned Righteous DO with not-so-glamorous result.

nezdin

Hi all,

The title summarises my experience. Have been a faithful PvP AC DC for ages and just got bored of both PvP and PvE. Mainly been using the DC as a AD-grabber that can heal, buff and even replace the tank in most dungeons (AA spamming!!!). How boring...

So, I decided to respec to a pure DPS build. Now I am a DO Righteous DC (no AA). My build is mainly for PvP. The result is not great. I am CC'd, pushed around and killed by lower item level DPS characters, while not being able to easily kill. So this post is to ask the more experienced of you some questions in the hope that I can improve my build because right now it is just frustrating. Keep in mind that I only have low level SH boons (level 8 SH), and am at an ilevel of 3000.

(1) I went DO mainly due to Terrifying Insight. This equates to a +20% DPS boost (sounds amazing). Then I have also feated Benefit of Foresight. Foresight now is supposed to make me take 13% less damage from all sources, correct? (this also sounds great). But is the extra tankiness from AC Righteous even better than Foresight and Terrifying Insight combined?

(2) I am really confused about Armour Penetration, Power and Crit in PvP. I have NO idea how to stack these relative to one another. Right now my stats are not great: about 12,000 power, 6,000 crit (about 25-30 % crit chance) and around 30% resistance ignored. these are remnants from the Faithful path I was before. should I ignored Armour Penetration for PvP completely and focus on Power and crit? (I am using a "normal" Dread right now, with 80% crit severity).

(3) Armour Enchants...I could equip a Perfect Negation from my CW. Right now am using "normal" Shadowclad because I got it for "free" (lockbox). Or is Trans Elven the only option? Btw, I am building for deflect; currently around 25% chance.

(4) Am I wrong to focus on deflect and should instead focus on lifesteal (due to DoTs)? Currently my lifesteal = 0.


I will leave it at that for now. Any comments and suggestions will be very appreciated. (Feel free to contact me in game if you prefer)

jazzfong

I keep on rotating between Faithful AC, Righteous AC and Righteous DO. For DPS DC in pvp, what you aim is have at least 10k arp, full power build, appropriate deflect stat and max HP. You can use either T.Shadowclad, T.Elven, T.Neg or maybe even T.Bark in next mod. Try to burst everything down, although it is still very hard since DC is not an appropriate DPSer in pvp but it is still doable against non-tank. For active artifact, use either Oghma or Wheels (Fire). Lifesteal is meh in pvp cuz u hit very low. Rmb dont stack crit but take it as a side stat from gear, you still need them for strong heals. Thats all, and prepare to die a lot.

putzboy78

With trans dread you need crit. The "full power" builds is based around either AA buffer and/or feytouched weapon enchant users. You have to balance your crit severity and crit chance in pvp just like in pve. But with feytouched your crit severity is low and therefore your crit chance can be low. (another exception is on TRs who rely on stealth to generate crit instead of crit chance.

Defensively in pvp, cc is your enemy as a dps dc. If you spend your time dancing in the pee circle you can't dps. So yeah you want to burst them down before they cc you to death. elven is a big help for this but also consider boons and things that reduce your vulnerability to cc.

10K is the magic number for armor pen. At 30% RI, your only going to take down the pve spec'd or undergeared people in PVP.

And yes be prepared to die, as a right dc you can have a positive KDR but it won't be a great KDR.

nezdin

@jazzfong @putzboy78

So you both agree on:
(a) lifesteal being not very useful compared to deflect.
(b) 10k = "magic number for armour pen".

On (b): why 10k? There is a discussion in the pvp forum about whether ArP is useful at all or power is better (some claim that ArP does nothing and is useless in pvp). Does no ArP apply mainly to classes with piercing (i.e. HR, TR)? I was considering an alternative spec where I go ACDC with Battle Fervor in the Virtuous tree, zero ArP and only Radiants in offence. --> spam AA + BoB to get power as high as possible before using encounters. (+new firesoul weap maybe).

Crit: If I build Crit too, this has to come at the expense of either power or ArP. Should go with 10k ArP, then invest fully into Crit until something like 50 or 60% and then put the rest into power for instance?

putzboy78

btw, be careful about what you get from forums concerning pvp theorycraft. The top theorycrafters are not sharing their secrets on the forums. Otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to kill you. So you should definitely review any information about pvp logic with some level of skepticism. Including mine... I'm a putz

bvira

For DPS you go for Arp + Power, just forget about Crit.

Crit hits less than non-crit with 75% crit severity in PvP due to crit resistance from tenacity. I wouldn't recommend using dread since fey provides better dmg and survivability.

Arp is kinda tricky; against certain classes you will never be able to mitigate all their DR so it gives you inconsistent results. You need enough Arp to pierce through armor class, defense, Arm pen resistance from tenacity, negation and DR from other sources, which means even RI as high as 130% wouldn't be enough in many cases. Not be mention many BiS players stack tons of deflect, which can't be mitigated.

So my point is Arp is only useful if you have a lot of it (say >100%), otherwise just go straight for power for more consistent dmg.

bvira

As for armor enchant, I'd say elven is the only viable option, unless you go AC and use AA to give yourself CC immunity (it's currently bugged and gives you CC immunity regardless of how many times you've been hit).

nezdin

@bvira

OK, so basically what you're saying it that all my ArP investment will be wasted against deflect classes; but against classes with high defence, won't my ArP manage to do some extra damage against them than having none?

Also, if high ArP is too tough to achieve, then why not go Power + Crit (instead of full power) with Dread? Currently with dread I am at 120% crit severity.

Dread dropped from a lockbox, that is why I am using it and don't have a better enchant right now. I guess if I don't increase my crit at all, then having dread does not make that much sense.

bvira

nezdin#5514 said:

@bvira

OK, so basically what you're saying it that all my ArP investment will be wasted against deflect classes; but against classes with high defence, won't my ArP manage to do some extra damage against them than having none?

Also, if high ArP is too tough to achieve, then why not go Power + Crit (instead of full power) with Dread? Currently with dread I am at 120% crit severity.

Dread dropped from a lockbox, that is why I am using it and don't have a better enchant right now. I guess if I don't increase my crit at all, then having dread does not make that much sense.

To compare power and crit you'd need to consider three factors: your current power, crit chance, and crit severity.

Dread doesn't add crit severity like that coz it only affects encounters, but for simplicity's sake let's say you do have 120% crit sev, and say 20k power + 30% crit. In that case crit is better than power but ONLY if there was no crit resistance. A typical PvP player with full PvP set has >45% crit resistance and that makes power > crit and that's why you see no one stacks crit in PvP except HRs who have piercing dmg.

For power vs arp: consider the two scenarios below:

1) Your RI = 80%
Opponent's DR = 100%
Opponent's Arp resist = 70%

The effectiveness of arp becomes 80% * 30% = 24% due to arp resist
Dmg effectiveness = 1-(DR-RI) = 1-(100%-24%) = 24%


2) Your RI = 100%
Opponent's DR = 100%
Opponent's Arp resist = 70%

The effectiveness of arp becomes 100% * 30% = 30% due to arp resist
Dmg effectiveness = 1-(DR-RI) = 1-(100%-30%) = 30%

Result:
20% RI (~2k arp) increase provides (30-24)*100%/24 = 25% dmg increase
2k power increase would only provide 5% dmg increase

But if opponent's DR is say 140%, then in both cases your arp would not increase you dmg, while power still can.

Conclusion: Power provides more consistent dmg increase while arp is more situational.

nezdin

bvira said:

nezdin#5514 said:

@bvira

OK, so basically what you're saying it that all my ArP investment will be wasted against deflect classes; but against classes with high defence, won't my ArP manage to do some extra damage against them than having none?

Also, if high ArP is too tough to achieve, then why not go Power + Crit (instead of full power) with Dread? Currently with dread I am at 120% crit severity.

Dread dropped from a lockbox, that is why I am using it and don't have a better enchant right now. I guess if I don't increase my crit at all, then having dread does not make that much sense.

To compare power and crit you'd need to consider three factors: your current power, crit chance, and crit severity.

Dread doesn't add crit severity like that coz it only affects encounters, but for simplicity's sake let's say you do have 120% crit sev, and say 20k power + 30% crit. In that case crit is better than power but ONLY if there was no crit resistance. A typical PvP player with full PvP set has >45% crit resistance and that makes power > crit and that's why you see no one stacks crit in PvP except HRs who have piercing dmg.

For power vs arp: consider the two scenarios below:

1) Your RI = 80%
Opponent's DR = 100%
Opponent's Arp resist = 70%

The effectiveness of arp becomes 80% * 30% = 24% due to arp resist
Dmg effectiveness = 1-(DR-RI) = 1-(100%-24%) = 24%


2) Your RI = 100%
Opponent's DR = 100%
Opponent's Arp resist = 70%

The effectiveness of arp becomes 100% * 30% = 30% due to arp resist
Dmg effectiveness = 1-(DR-RI) = 1-(100%-30%) = 30%

Result:
20% RI (~2k arp) increase provides (30-24)*100%/24 = 25% dmg increase
2k power increase would only provide 5% dmg increase

But if opponent's DR is say 140%, then in both cases your arp would not increase you dmg, while power still can.

Conclusion: Power provides more consistent dmg increase while arp is more situational.

I assume that tenacity-related crit resistance works similarly to ArP resist in your examples, but with a higher multiplier which is why you say that it is not worth stacking for PvP.

Very clear example about Power, ArP and how mitigation works in PvP by the way - thank you. It is pushing me to consider the tradeoffs between Terrifying Insight and Battle Fervor BoB + AA - the latter option giving me more incentives to invest in power than the former.

plavia

only TR and HR can go full DPS at PVP.

as righteous in PVP you need defensive spec. (like GF, GWF, SW, OP and CW)
lot of deflect, hp, and even astral shield and BoH.
you also need lot of ArP and crit. so you need lot of stat overall.

going as full DPS DC in PVP is suicide

putzboy78

as full dps in pvp you can get a little better than a 1.0 KDR, which as a DPS doesn't hold up in competitive pvp. You are gonna die and your gonna die a lot... the only question is if you can take some people with you.

btw righteous dcs are very helpful for taking down tanks thanks to the buff/debuffs. From a competitive startegy they can be helpful but since you can't sub in players/builds in pvp to counter a bad matchup this means you will shine some of the time but lack the utility to shine all of the time.

nezdin

plavia said:

only TR and HR can go full DPS at PVP.

as righteous in PVP you need defensive spec. (like GF, GWF, SW, OP and CW)
lot of deflect, hp, and even astral shield and BoH.
you also need lot of ArP and crit. so you need lot of stat overall.

going as full DPS DC in PVP is suicide

Hi Plavia,

you say you would need lots of ArP and Crit - is there any reason why you particularly think that Crit is so useful (since above other have said that it could be less useful)? And are you referring to DPS or healing?

plavia

you need crit to proc fire of the gods. i wholdn't aim for 100% but you should have at least 30% to proc it.
ArP is more important, but you can get alot from the guild boon.

in my opinon there is no DPS DC (although i have seen a few in PVP). its more buff/debuff DC.
i play righteous and usuelly i start with BoH, exaltation and BtS.
if there are many HR, I take off exaltation and slot DG.


as long as i am alive the party get:
10% damage reduction from HR andTR (ward overlaoads can be shared with healing for 10 sec)
15% damage reduction of valhalla set (usuelly all the party attack me )
40% damage reduction of BtS on one player, in empower mode it can be up to +30% more damage to my party
10-20% increase damage to players i attack with bear of sins and condeming gaze (assuming it works)
10-25% share my power with weapon of light and Battle fervor
25-49% DR using exaltation / 12.5% increase damage and DR if i use DG
bit of heals from BoH with minor feats like cleanse, 2% AP per 5 sec from gift of haste.
and my boons, weapon enchant, astral seal etc.


i dont do tons of damage, but i can stay alive to help the party.

in some cases where the other team is not homogeneous, i might go bit more agressive with FF/chains to do faster kills.

putzboy78

I've done full dps in pvp, like i said its painful. I run breaking the spirit (DoT (bear your sins) and debuff, in divine stuns, in empowered 30% party buff), Forgemaster Flame (DoT (Bear your Sins), slows, and dps), and divine glow (heals, buff, & debuff).

Like I said, your looking at a positive KDR but not by much.

nezdin

plavia said:

you need crit to proc fire of the gods. i wholdn't aim for 100% but you should have at least 30% to proc it.
ArP is more important, but you can get alot from the guild boon.

in my opinon there is no DPS DC (although i have seen a few in PVP). its more buff/debuff DC.
i play righteous and usuelly i start with BoH, exaltation and BtS.
if there are many HR, I take off exaltation and slot DG.


as long as i am alive the party get:
10% damage reduction from HR andTR (ward overlaoads can be shared with healing for 10 sec)
15% damage reduction of valhalla set (usuelly all the party attack me )
40% damage reduction of BtS on one player, in empower mode it can be up to +30% more damage to my party
10-20% increase damage to players i attack with bear of sins and condeming gaze (assuming it works)
10-25% share my power with weapon of light and Battle fervor
25-49% DR using exaltation / 12.5% increase damage and DR if i use DG
bit of heals from BoH with minor feats like cleanse, 2% AP per 5 sec from gift of haste.
and my boons, weapon enchant, astral seal etc.


i dont do tons of damage, but i can stay alive to help the party.

in some cases where the other team is not homogeneous, i might go bit more agressive with FF/chains to do faster kills.

OK, linking Crit to Fire of the Gods does make sense.

It seems that you have focused on increasing your tankiness and also have chosen some feats that are more useful for PvE. My idea was to build for DPS - maybe it is the suicidal option as you term it. But I also wanted to get away from the tank-DC build and really amplify my DPS. Essentially, instead of creating a new DPS-based character I decided to make my DC my DPS character (since my CW is also poor on DPS, being an oppressor). I don't know how you generally queue, but I do not pay in premades - I PuG queue randomly.

bvira

nezdin#5514 said:

OK, linking Crit to Fire of the Gods does make sense.

It seems that you have focused on increasing your tankiness and also have chosen some feats that are more useful for PvE. My idea was to build for DPS - maybe it is the suicidal option as you term it. But I also wanted to get away from the tank-DC build and really amplify my DPS. Essentially, instead of creating a new DPS-based character I decided to make my DC my DPS character (since my CW is also poor on DPS, being an oppressor). I don't know how you generally queue, but I do not pay in premades - I PuG queue randomly.

A non-BiS full DPS DO DC without elven is suicide, but generally if you have empowered AS you should be able to survive long enough to be somewhat useful, and I recommend you always use AS unless your enemies are weak (or if you like dying a lot).

Against other skilled BiS players, even if you're absolute BiS, you can only kill maybe some BiS CWs and nothing else. Basically full DPS build is pretty much only useful for killing lowbies and ineffective against geared players.

bvira

And also I have to disagree about stacking crit to proc fire of the gods; it's not an effective way to increase your DPS at all.

30% to 40% crit chance just so it procs teeny tiny bit sooner compared to straight 10% dmg increase from stacking power instead; it's clear which one is better.

putzboy78

Shouldn't stack crit just for power-of-the-gods/bear-your-sins proc but if you consider a base DC has 75% crit severity even your own Power/Crit Optimization chart shows that some crit should be stacked if not a lot

bvira

putzboy78 said:

Shouldn't stack crit just for power-of-the-gods/bear-your-sins proc but if you consider a base DC has 75% crit severity even your own Power/Crit Optimization chart shows that some crit should be stacked if not a lot

As I've mentioned earlier, crit only outperforms power if we don't consider crit resistance from tenacity. I believe this is still valid; Basically dmg resist and crit resist are additive and that makes crit hits lower than non-crit even with trans vorp.

plavia

I only PUG as well, claric can make a big difference in PVP or PVE.
allmost all your heals, powers and feats are party skills and are not limited to amount of players (or pets/NPC etc.)
not to use it is a waste.

try diffrent powers such as searing light, Bts, FF, DG, sun burst, chains. they all good in PVP.
but overlall u need to stay alive, and for this u need to be tanky.
lot of HP, deflect and mount bonuses.