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[POLL] Should boons increase your item level?
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Just as the title says, should boons increase item level?
Currently we have a system where total item level only includes equipment, enchants and artifacts. But a LARGE amount of players actual "power" comes from boons. I havnt done the math, but would wager that each character probably gets MORE stats from all their boons, than they do between their armor/enchants/artifacts.
It seems to me, including boons would be a much more realistic measure of "player power".
Why is this important? To show 3 things:
1) It would show the vast diversity in player power in Neverwinter, something that is already known but not quantified at all. When a 3k item level player plays a BIS player, how much of an item gap is there? There is probably a bigger item gap from 3k->4k than there is from 2k -> 3k. Why? Because the 4k player probably has tens of thousands of stats more, that are NOT included in item level - just from boons!
2) Would become more transparent on players power in comparison to PVE dungeons. Currently PVE dungeons were designed around characters with smaller stat allocations, so doing this would show really how much players out gear current dungeons - and may provide some incite on how to remedy that?
3) Help with PVP. I am 100% convinced that PVP should not be based on ELO, but rather some type of "gear" related measure as it is the single more determining factor on who wins in matchups. So creating a more accurate measure of player power would be ideal for creating balanced matches.
MY PROPOSAL:
(Its been a while since I have done the math, so I apologize for not knowing the details) but it seems there is a quantifiable stat boost in enchants. Going from a rank 11 to a rank 12 gives a quantifiable boost of what, +150 stats? What is the "item level" difference from rank 11 to 12? This should be pegged as your ratio. So if that number is "15" or "30" or "50" your ratio would be: for every 150 stats, you are given X item level.
Take this, and apply this to boons. So each boon would boost a players item level by X amount. If I had to guess, each completed module would provide ~ an additional 2k stats (on average?) This is equivalent to 3+ FULL rank 12 enchants. Which (again) is why its a more important factor on player power than anything that is currently measured.
So currently a BIS player is somewhere around 4,333? If I had to guess, on this new system that same player would probably be closer to 10,000 once you include things like SH boons... That 3k Player, would get some boosts, maybe upwards of 4k-5k tops, but now this shows you the true "item gap" between players and why a "BIS" player can take on a group of 2k-3k players and win... because his "actual power" is probably around the combination of them all.
Currently we have a system where total item level only includes equipment, enchants and artifacts. But a LARGE amount of players actual "power" comes from boons. I havnt done the math, but would wager that each character probably gets MORE stats from all their boons, than they do between their armor/enchants/artifacts.
It seems to me, including boons would be a much more realistic measure of "player power".
Why is this important? To show 3 things:
1) It would show the vast diversity in player power in Neverwinter, something that is already known but not quantified at all. When a 3k item level player plays a BIS player, how much of an item gap is there? There is probably a bigger item gap from 3k->4k than there is from 2k -> 3k. Why? Because the 4k player probably has tens of thousands of stats more, that are NOT included in item level - just from boons!
2) Would become more transparent on players power in comparison to PVE dungeons. Currently PVE dungeons were designed around characters with smaller stat allocations, so doing this would show really how much players out gear current dungeons - and may provide some incite on how to remedy that?
3) Help with PVP. I am 100% convinced that PVP should not be based on ELO, but rather some type of "gear" related measure as it is the single more determining factor on who wins in matchups. So creating a more accurate measure of player power would be ideal for creating balanced matches.
MY PROPOSAL:
(Its been a while since I have done the math, so I apologize for not knowing the details) but it seems there is a quantifiable stat boost in enchants. Going from a rank 11 to a rank 12 gives a quantifiable boost of what, +150 stats? What is the "item level" difference from rank 11 to 12? This should be pegged as your ratio. So if that number is "15" or "30" or "50" your ratio would be: for every 150 stats, you are given X item level.
Take this, and apply this to boons. So each boon would boost a players item level by X amount. If I had to guess, each completed module would provide ~ an additional 2k stats (on average?) This is equivalent to 3+ FULL rank 12 enchants. Which (again) is why its a more important factor on player power than anything that is currently measured.
So currently a BIS player is somewhere around 4,333? If I had to guess, on this new system that same player would probably be closer to 10,000 once you include things like SH boons... That 3k Player, would get some boosts, maybe upwards of 4k-5k tops, but now this shows you the true "item gap" between players and why a "BIS" player can take on a group of 2k-3k players and win... because his "actual power" is probably around the combination of them all.
[POLL] Should boons increase your item level? 82 votes
Yes
71%
59 votes
No
28%
23 votes
0
Comments
At least how it is, we know its an incomplete picture. It is what it claims to be, an item level, a pure gear score. Its not a boon level, or a companion level.
What needs to happen isn't another half thought out change, we already had that with gear score. Personally Id just like to do away with the whole thing, its no ones business what my score is. If I can queue, that should be all that matters.
But I will concede that, that is a PVE mentality. I suspect PVPers will always want a better measuring stick. So, if anything should be changed, rather then suddenly pad everyone's IL by changing it and adding to it. Potentially requiring another pass on dungeons, and their entry requirements. They just need to add another rating, call it a boon level, or companion effectiveness, or what have you. But something new, that way IL gets left alone, preventing other unforseen, unthought of changes.
I will also add, that if you intend to call out and challenge anyone who votes no, as you did with me. You might as well close this poll. People wont bother to vote if they feel they have to explain themselves.
But like I said. if I had to GUESS, you almost certainly get more stats from boons than gear alone. So your item level only tells you a small piece of the picture and is incomplete.
The problem I have with the current system, stems from PVP. There is no match making and ELO matchmaking not only has been proven NOT to work, it also CANT work in a game where item level matter FAR more than player skill. So there needs to be a more accurate way of measuring "gear" so that PVP matchmaking can be based on gear. That is the ONLY way to normalize or create "more even" PVP games - matching players with similar gear.
They cant do that now, because as I said... Item level means nothing and in order to not have 5 hour long ques, you would probably need to allow 3.5k item level players to que against BIS players, which does nothing to create fair matches....
If boons were added into item level, or you created a "total power level" that would add your gear score onto your boon stats to do matchmaking based on "total power level" I bet this would scale from like 0-12,000 or more! and now you could create "brackets" or "ranges" in which to group people for PVP purposes. that more accurately depict their power for matchmaking....
Anyways, the reason I called you out was to really just bump the thread :P It was going lower and lower on the page and I was surprised that people had voted and no comments, so I took the opportunity to just add you in here and hope you would bump again with comments like you did. Thanks
It is also just like enchantment if you compare it,
it is an item that boost your stats and should add to
Total item Level. But their is good points about pvp
so hopefully some common ground can be sought and
agreed on.
Note: this is a non-troll post.
"Great men are almost always bad men."
“If God is all-powerful He cannot be good, if God is good He cannot be all-powerful!”
The second problem of pvp is population. There's no worthy rewards. The campaign only offers outdated equipment and decent-ish artifacts, but that's not enough. PvP needs short term rewards too such as RP and AD you can earn at the same rate as someone playing dungeons. But this is slightly off-topic.
I'm with sock here though. Just adding boons doesn't change that the system is fundamentally flawed and cannot be used whatsoever to evaluate a toon's strength. There are just too many factors involved. I'm pretty sure an accurate approach would need significant time to figure out. Development time the devs don't have, or don't prioritize over other things.
Then even if you have a more decisive system, what's the gain? In PVE item level is just used as a rough barrier to enter content. It's an incentive for players to gear up and unlock content more than an actual measurement of how difficult a dungeon is. I agree it's some guesswork for the devs to find out what item level refers to what power of characters, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually factor in boons, mounts and companions and not only balance around the character sheet item level.
For PVP ideally the ELO takes care of any power differences. If otherwise equal characters have a vast difference in power that's not represented by item level, it's represented in the ELO rating. You don't need item level brackets and hence not an item level that properly represents power. What PVP needs is more players to work with and getting rid of some confounding variables like pug vs. pre and solo vs. custom queue. That's a process that's going to take a few mods even if the devs take appropriate steps and cannot be sped up by a more accurate item level.
So the only real gain for a true item level is comparing e-peens and I'm not sure that's good invested resources.
Because its going to create such a huge gap for new players, they wouldn't be able to get anything done since everyone will want 7k iLevel players. Even though you don't need any of that to actually do the dungeon, people will feel pressured and never get a group.
If you REALLY cared about teaming with only people who had boons, then you should just have to go out of your way to ask them or just know that they did due to the time you've known them.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
But in a game like NW, to make this painfully obvious, it would be akin to having ALL players 1-70 that Que, have a chance to que up against each other, without any adjustment to stats... and then someone saying "well ELO will take care of it..." you wont like it when your leveling your lvl 23 alt and get matched against a lvl 65 who has like 3x your HP.
I have already shared, that this is a specific problem with NW. It comes from the population size, compared to item gap. When you have a lower population, the item gap allowed cannot be as high as an extremely high population game and its allowable item gap. In a more populated game, you can have immense power gap from items, because at any given time there will be thousands, if not more, of "BIS" level players who are all around the same power level you are in PVP.
In NW, its just not the case and there are only a few thousand TOTAL players on at any given time. The number of "PVPers" is probably just a few hundred, and the amount of players who are "BIS" are probably 5-10% of that "PVP base" (maybe less).
Which means at any given time, there are probably less than 20 people who are considered BIS and they are likely all on eachothers friends list or guildmates and therefore dont get matched against eachother but will either que as a premade, or get put on the same team against 3.2k itemlevel players instead.
The best thing this game can do right now, is try to increase the % of players that PVP. In order to do this, you need to try and create a more friendly system to the PVE players or the PVP casuals who dont have BIS gear and dont PVP all the time. Which means you need a better metric for matching teams based on GEAR and not ELO so the playing field is more level when they enter into PVP. So the 3.2k itemlevel guy who is in rank 8s and Normal/Greater enchants... gets matched up EITHER against people his own item level OR atleast the teams are evened out with "BIS" players on each side....
I personally dont care about only teaming with HAMSTER player. Because the PVE content is so trivial it doesnt require that to run. But dont be fooled. That "gap" already exists. I would say its probably to the favor of the rookie this is done, so they dont say things like "im 3k itemlevel... they are only 800 item level above me" and not realize that gap is much further than it seems... Instead he would say, "Im 3.5k item level, they are 7k... thats a big gap, what can I do to increase my itemlevel"
I think you're wrong here. You cling to the fact that a system based on item level would create more equal matches, hence more players would compete in a fair environment and boost PVP as game mode. But it's not going to happen, because equal matches are no question of the rating they are based on.
The devs already have the option to do just that. They simply would have to change the ELO to a harsh one. As it currently stands, the matchmaking searches for equal competition, and in case it can't find it in a certain amount of time, just matches up anybody. That causes the effect you're describing as well. Because of low population players that never should be matched up against suddenly meet themselves on the battlefield. That's obviously not an issue of the rating, or item levels.
A harsh matchmaking is not enforced because it would take queue times to >30 minutes and that's not something they wanna do. It's a mistake in my eyes. Why not wait for 30-45 minutes for a good game? Essentially it's what you're doing right now anyway, because 90% of the matches are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
It get why they are doing this, because it would blatantly unfold how bad the state of PVP currently is. So they go any match before no match. Meh...
It's an issue of population. During the NCL matchmaking worked just fine and the only issue was that they didn't enforce a solo queue to make it a true competition.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
First, the system would still ignore mounts, mount boni, insignia, bondings and companion boni.
Second, it would make the gap more visible to newer players and discourage them.
Third, they would either waste a lot of resources better spent somewhere else and/or screw it up. For example there are companions with idiotic boons and others with +5% dmg. An epic wild hunt rider is great on a CW and meh on most other classes. For realistic picture there should be a PvE and a PvP IL where drowned weapon give more IL in PvP and less in PvE. Tanacity is useless in PvE and essential in PvP. Same goes for some boons, classes builds, insignia boni, mount boni etc.
Simply put, yes, you may see a 2.3k gear score player who has better stats than a 2.8k gear score player. So yes, I do think your boons (and you companions, and your mount bonuses, etc...) should all be measured. At the same time, you could theoretically pick useless HAMSTER. So it seems like the idea of a separate score is a good idea. The system already is in place for this though. If you look at your crit stat score it says "score from items" + "score from other stuff"
It wouldnt hard to have your IL be + ,
Ex. Displayed IL is 3200 + 1200
I just see far more negative consequences than positive ones. I find it hard to believe anyone has had problems because this ISN'T in the game. But there will definately be problems if it is.
As for PvP, you don't need this to fix matchmaking, that formula can be done behind closed doors, through stats/boons/mount calcuation or win/lose ratio ELO. This change would only have an effect on PvE
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
1. The gap would remain exactly the same. You would merely be able to judge it more accurately
2. Since boons are far asier to aquire than high level enchantments, it would close the current 2.5K to 3K gap that seems so insurmountable and reak it up into more manageable indivdual steps.
3. Factoring in boons would allow for a more accurate self-assessment of performance potential. It would allow players a less steep appearing climb to improve their iL, relieving psychological pressure.
Now granted, it would also require the system to be standardized, so that stats directly translate into iL more like the old Gear Score did, but factoring in boons, companion boosts, set bonuses and triggered effects (like the UD rings), to work properly.
I met 3k GS players, either Op, Gf, gwf,sw,cw,dc,hr,tr/ High Gear score but they where total suckers. Gear score is not equal to experience.
Now enough any total new player put little bit money and bang he have GS over 2.9k. And so? Does it make him strong. Gear wise yes, combat experience wise nop.
This all your proposal is just increase numbers so that latter some guys could proud of their achievement and claim that his GS >>>
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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I don't judge based on IL because it does not reflect the true stats of a player, or their experience and ability to play content. I've met 4.2k players with the same class as me who do less well in group content than players with half their IL.
If IL isn't gonna be removed altogether, then I agree that making boons count at least makes it more accurate in describing a players progress and experience in game.
Tornado Of Souls
You laugh about ppl concerned about IL and there is always the mysterious 2k player who outdpsed the 3k+ player of the same class. Let me put this into perspective. Sure I was outdpsed when I played my 3.3k GWF by other GWFs with similar or even lower IL, that happens. It would be bad for him, if he would not play his main, better, then I play with an alt. Fact is, that in most runs my chars, sometimes even my DC are dealing more dmg then the PuGs I run with. I play my CW with a buff setup and HV set and still the dmg output of my CW is sometimes 10x of the next PuG.
Yes there are very good players with 'relative' low IL and there are bad players with high IL, but fact is, that you are not a better player per se with low IL and reason dictates, that more of the high IL players play for a longer time and know how to play.
Ignoring all that, the bad player with a high IL still deals more dmg, then the bad player with a low IL and the good player deals even more dmg with higher IL, then with a low IL.
Sure, the system is flawed. With BIS gear excluding armor and jewelry enchants and support enchants you will have an IL of ~3.5. There are 800 IL without a significant contribution to stats, while companions, boons and bondings can double your dps and contribute nothing to your IL.
As I said, the system is flawed, but better the nothing and without any 'numbers' you would have to inspect every player before you invite him.
I think that IL should be a part of a bigger ranking system for PvE (bronze, silver, gold, whatever) along with other set of requirements like campaign boons, headcount of epic bosses (assuming in thousands), paired with series of trials tied to their class etc. Just a thought. Feel free to shoot it down if you want.