Orcus set bonus! Explaining!

imperiousshini

Hello, can someone help me understand the Orcus set bonus?
Deal up to 20% additional damage based on the difference in hit point percentage between the player and target.
Examples:
1) If my player has in 100% of her hit points (50k) and the target is Orcus himself with hit points at 50% (original 100m) do i get the DMG bonus because my hit points are lower? or I don't get it because my percentage is higher than him? (while i have 100% he has his 50%)

2) If i am doing pvp and I have (90k) hit points and my target has (160k) hit points both at 100% of their total Hit Points. (Is any of us getting the bonus if we both wear the set?)

ambisinisterr

The way I am reading that it is based on the difference of current HP. "Difference in Hit Point Percentage" not "Difference in Total Hit Points."

So if you have 100% of your HP and your opponent has 50% of their HP then you will get a bonus based on the wording.

HOWEVER...the set does not specify if having higher HP or Lower HP will trigger the buff. Or maybe (but oddly) the buff will trigger if your HP is Higher AND Lower than your opponent's HP.

It also does not specify the ratio. It could be 1:1 and give 1% damage bonus for each percent difference and cap at 20% or give a 1:5 difference and cap because if you have 100% of your HP then the enemy would have 0% (20x less).

Any chance you could clarify on this @terramak ?

wildfirede

This is a perfect example of a tooltip that lets you collect something for months only to have the pleasure to test it yourself out.

productive feedback to the devs : read the "should tooltips be clearer" topic and the suggestions inside it.

ambisinisterr

It is kind of a catch 22 thing. In order for it to be clearing then it would have to be a paragraph.

I mean, at some point it will stop being a "tooltip" if it requires a paragraph to explain.

It's easy to compalin the tooltips are too vague but if they were ever fully fleshed out then it would be daunting to read anything.

I actually have player manuals for Baldur's Gate I, II and EE and Player Manuals for NWN 1 and 2. Why? Because putting all the rules in the game would have been hellish.

Stuff such as Encounter Adjustments I don't think are even mentioned within the game. Oh the good old days when my lunch breaks were spent reading video game manuals...

It would be nice to have an equivilent game manual or a place where you could look up specific details for sure...
But I would argue that tooltips are not the place for that information to be hashed out in detail.

revan06100

There is a difference between making a paragraph to explain, and just explain what the item/power/feat properly does.
There are bunch of things that aren't clear at all, for instance, tell when an enchant like dragon hoard has a cooldown, wanderer's one doesn't, and it's nowhere specified.
Same with powers, when the tooltip say for exemple deals more damage to foes, but doesn't actually say how much.
It's hard to make choices when explanations are that vague, specially when it cost a lot to pick one and have to switch back to another.

wildfirede

Yes exactly still have my BG one too, and here comes the wiki thing - if the official wiki had a long text describing what the skill/item does i would be ok with that. But to have a accurate and fully describing articles either devs have to actively update the wiki or give community friendly people the chance of doing it by letting new items be free on PTR for example.

imperiousshini

ambisinisterr said:

It is kind of a catch 22 thing. In order for it to be clearing then it would have to be a paragraph.

I mean, at some point it will stop being a "tooltip" if it requires a paragraph to explain.

It's easy to compalin the tooltips are too vague but if they were ever fully fleshed out then it would be daunting to read anything.

I actually have player manuals for Baldur's Gate I, II and EE and Player Manuals for NWN 1 and 2. Why? Because putting all the rules in the game would have been hellish.

Stuff such as Encounter Adjustments I don't think are even mentioned within the game. Oh the good old days when my lunch breaks were spent reading video game manuals...

It would be nice to have an equivilent game manual or a place where you could look up specific details for sure...
But I would argue that tooltips are not the place for that information to be hashed out in detail.

Thanks for going more into detail.The patch notes say that even if you have a lower hp percentage you'll get the bonus so that means that whatever you have to do your HP bars must not be relevant with your target?
Of course I'd be glad for one more detailed explanation by terramak

And as for the explanation that may require a paragraph I'd like it, if any of those mechanics that need more details could be written in a more detailed way in one or many paragraphs in the official wiki relative posts. Those players that would want more details in how the game works or additional information about how one of their powers work, will eventually check the wiki and that way it can be brought back to life xD
ps. I am certainly checking it a lot

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wildfirede

in % i take it, and unless you are a certain mage spell comming alive

ambisinisterr

In order to properly explain this set bonus it would take up several lines.

I agree that cooldowns should be clear. I am not a fan of hidden cooldowns at all and those should be listed. That's an easy fix. Hint hint, nudge nudge Terramak! Please stop the secrecy of cooldowns.

But in the case of this tooltip it already takes up 3 lines as long as the wiki tooltip can be trusted.

"Deal 1% Additional Damage for every 5% HP less the target has. Maximum of 20% Additional Damage." would be close in size but would be just as confusing as what is currently there.

The only way to write it out which would be clear would be to use a bullet point system with an included example.

Deal 1% Additional Damage Rounded Down for every 5% HP less the target has.
Maximum of 20% Additional Damage.

Examples:
Player has 90% HP and Target has 50% HP. Bonus: 8%
Player has 100% HP and Target has 100% HP. Bonus: 0%

The issue is that it's not the statement which make it clear but the example. Hence why dictionary definitions always include examples of how the words are used since the definitions alone can be misleading.

mmm1001

Judging by how it was working so far, developers didn't have idea how to understand that tooltip too
Anyway MY understanding how it was supposed to work (or what whoever wrote that description probably meant) is:
you have %xx HP of your max HP left (lets say 30%). Enemy has 90% HP left (of his max). you do 90-30=60% more damage.
If you have more %HP that enemy it should not work, e.g it should not increase your damage.
In ideal case - you have 1% HP enemy has 100, you deal 99% more damage.

imperiousshini

ambisinisterr said:

In order to properly explain this set bonus it would take up several lines.

I agree that cooldowns should be clear. I am not a fan of hidden cooldowns at all and those should be listed. That's an easy fix. Hint hint, nudge nudge Terramak! Please stop the secrecy of cooldowns.

But in the case of this tooltip it already takes up 3 lines as long as the wiki tooltip can be trusted.

"Deal 1% Additional Damage for every 5% HP less the target has. Maximum of 20% Additional Damage." would be close in size but would be just as confusing as what is currently there.

The only way to write it out which would be clear would be to use a bullet point system with an included example.

Deal 1% Additional Damage Rounded Down for every 5% HP less the target has.
Maximum of 20% Additional Damage.

Examples:
Player has 90% HP and Target has 50% HP. Bonus: 8%
Player has 100% HP and Target has 100% HP. Bonus: 0%

The issue is that it's not the statement which make it clear but the example. Hence why dictionary definitions always include examples of how the words are used since the definitions alone can be misleading.




oh great that's a perfect explanation thank you very much.
I hope anyone else that needs help with understanding the set bonus find this post equally well explained.

oh well so that wasn't the 100% legit explanation xD

ambisinisterr

imperiousshini said:

ambisinisterr said:

It is kind of a catch 22 thing. In order for it to be clearing then it would have to be a paragraph.

I mean, at some point it will stop being a "tooltip" if it requires a paragraph to explain.

It's easy to compalin the tooltips are too vague but if they were ever fully fleshed out then it would be daunting to read anything.

I actually have player manuals for Baldur's Gate I, II and EE and Player Manuals for NWN 1 and 2. Why? Because putting all the rules in the game would have been hellish.

Stuff such as Encounter Adjustments I don't think are even mentioned within the game. Oh the good old days when my lunch breaks were spent reading video game manuals...

It would be nice to have an equivilent game manual or a place where you could look up specific details for sure...
But I would argue that tooltips are not the place for that information to be hashed out in detail.

Thanks for going more into detail.The patch notes say that even if you have a lower hp percentage you'll get the bonus so that means that whatever you have to do your HP bars must not be relevant with your target?
Of course I'd be glad for one more detailed explanation by terramak

And as for the explanation that may require a paragraph I'd like it, if any of those mechanics that need more details could be written in a more detailed way in one or many paragraphs in the official wiki relative posts. Those players that would want more details in how the game works or additional information about how one of their powers work, will eventually check the wiki and that way it can be brought back to life xD
ps. I am certainly checking it a lot

Woah! Wait! I am not going into detail. I am speculating based on the wording.

I do not have any information on how it works other than what can be concluded from the exact wording. A developer will have to clarify how the set works as the wording itself is ambiguous.

However if you say the patch notes say that it is based on the difference, higher or lower, than that should be the case.
What we don't know then is the ratio. How much of a bonus do you get for every percentage difference? That we will have to see if Terramak is willing to reveal unless it has been revealed elsewhere.

mmm1001 said:

Judging by how it was working so far, developers didn't have idea how to understand that tooltip too
Anyway MY understanding how it was supposed to work (or what whoever wrote that description probably meant) is:
you have %xx HP of your max HP left (lets say 30%). Enemy has 90% HP left (of his max). you do 90-30=60% more damage.
If you have more %HP that enemy it should not work, e.g it should not increase your damage.
In ideal case - you have 1% HP enemy has 100, you deal 99% more damage.

You forgot that there is a maximum bonus. If you are saying it does not work because you are not seeing 60% more damage then that is explainable by the max being 20% as per the tooltip.

However we would still need to know the ratio. Your example assumes a 1:1 ratio (gaining 1% bonus for every 1% difference) but the tooltip does not specify such.

Additionally we do not know if it is applied to the base damage or total damage. Gaining 20% additional base damage will not necessarily increase your damage output by 20%. It could be more or it could be less based on other variables.

imperiousshini

The most preferable would be 1:1 but let's see i ll wait for the actual percentage xD

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thefabricant

ambisinisterr said:

It is kind of a catch 22 thing. In order for it to be clearing then it would have to be a paragraph.

I mean, at some point it will stop being a "tooltip" if it requires a paragraph to explain.

It's easy to compalin the tooltips are too vague but if they were ever fully fleshed out then it would be daunting to read anything.

I actually have player manuals for Baldur's Gate I, II and EE and Player Manuals for NWN 1 and 2. Why? Because putting all the rules in the game would have been hellish.

Stuff such as Encounter Adjustments I don't think are even mentioned within the game. Oh the good old days when my lunch breaks were spent reading video game manuals...

It would be nice to have an equivilent game manual or a place where you could look up specific details for sure...
But I would argue that tooltips are not the place for that information to be hashed out in detail.

@ambisinisterr the way I would go about it is by creating jargon that can be used to shorthandedly explain complex mechanics and then have a dictionary somewhere else that explains what all that jargon means. You can then have tooltips, that are filled with jargon, which are quite short, but give a lot of in depth information if you know what the jargon means.

And as for the set....|[(%Player HP)-(%Monster HP)]|/5

plasticbat

"Deal up to 20% additional damage based on the difference in hit point percentage between the player and target."

20% additional damage of what? weapon damage? total damage?

demonmonger

Sets not worth it...

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grimah

I tested this extensively when it became available, just to make sure what it does.

I can confirm it does do hp %-enemyhp % / 5

So basically 0% at 100% vs 100% then goes down to 20% bonus when the enemy reaches 0 health.

It's probably the best set for GWF, but for everyone else, unless you benefit from CON/STR you are not going to benefit much (since you lose 2000 offensive stats which is equivalent to 5% damage after you rearrange enchants for the ArP you lose).

for example this orcus set is only a +1% damage over black ice set for CWs not counting the black ice bonus (which is probably 0%)

so if you compare this set to lolset (GWF/TR/HR) and Black Ice set (SW/CW)
Hard to guess now, but lets assume lostmauth provides +2% damage in a party environment.*

GWF: +5%, +3%*
TR: +3%, +1%*
HR: +3%, +1%*
SW: +3%
CW: +1%

plasticbat

Is the HP% difference calculated using absolute value?

i.e.
abs (hp % - enemy hp%) / 5

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thefabricant

magenubbie said:

plasticbat said:

Is the HP% difference calculated using absolute value?

i.e.
abs (hp % - enemy hp%) / 5

That's how I understand both Fabs and Grima's reasoning, although I'm no mathematician. If so, in steps it would look like this:

| [(player current HP/player max HP) x100] - [(target current HP/target max HP) x100] | / 5 = extra dmg % added.

A very creative yet not very transparent way to calculate damage as we can only check the workings while we're at full health.

You test it by firstly damaging dummies a lot while you at full health and observing the dps change, you then go and lose like 90% of your hp to some pack of monsters, come back, bash the dummy some more. If you have 100k HP (like I do) you can then drink 10k health pots to restore HP in 10% increments and check accurately. You do need to get rid of all lifesteal though.

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grimah

metalldjt said:

whats this, overall dps? or what?

comparing the orcus set with lostmauth/black ice set.

thefabricant

grimah said:

I tested this extensively when it became available, just to make sure what it does.

I can confirm it does do hp %-enemyhp % / 5

So basically 0% at 100% vs 100% then goes down to 20% bonus when the enemy reaches 0 health.

It's probably the best set for GWF, but for everyone else, unless you benefit from CON/STR you are not going to benefit much (since you lose 2000 offensive stats which is equivalent to 5% damage after you rearrange enchants for the ArP you lose).

for example this orcus set is only a +1% damage over black ice set for CWs not counting the black ice bonus (which is probably 0%)

so if you compare this set to lolset (GWF/TR/HR) and Black Ice set (SW/CW)
Hard to guess now, but lets assume lostmauth provides +2% damage in a party environment.*

GWF: +5%, +3%*
TR: +3%, +1%*
HR: +3%, +1%*
SW: +3%
CW: +1%

Less than 1% for CW if you use dread, the lostmauth bonus procs the dread weapon dot and stacks it.

niadan

Just test it with a guildie in open pvp.