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Flogging a Dead Horse...
drkbodhi
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
Ok... so I have been leveling my GWF for the first time since his M5 creation. I have been seeking to understand the NEW concept that EE has regarding XP needed to level; XP given and rewards; Minimum number of Vigilance quests halved. This is part of my play-style... so bear with me.
This GWF of mine, named Atwors, started his journey at 26. For some reason I got tired of leveling my HR and found new focus with him. My idea was not only to level my character, but to see if the NEW system was actually going to help level players faster from 60 to 70... as it was advertised.
Wors got his arti weapon at 67 and he had no problems with handling giants and what not throughout EE. That is not the issue... the issue is this.
I found myself at 67 3/4 and no where else to go. So I as talking to some guildies who are in the same boat. We all leveled 60 to 70 in the first weeks after M6 hit and now we are leveling another toon in this "era". One of us... out of the 4 or 5... with a big Azure boost is on target to be 70 at the end of Spinward. The rest of us are in it... and finding the same thing I did. BTW... we are all running with over 40% boost to XP. Me... I am running 3 borrowed r7 Azures with Inscribed Clothes.
- Finished DS at mid 62, after I decided to do 10 to 12 quests per section. That decision, will be my rule from now on. Grinding SH and Seeds quests to hit 63.
- Started RR at 63 and finished @ high 64. Grinding SH and Seeds, Vault of the Nine quests to 65.
- Headed to FP at 'just' 65 and finishing at mid 66.
- Started SR at mid 66... finished at 67 3/4. Grinding SH and Seeds quests to 70... was my initial thought.
Then a guildie suggested that I jump in DS and do the first 8 over and over again until I hit 70. My statement was this... "Why not just run the whole thing all over again?"
So that is where I am at.
- I finished round 2 in DS at mid 68. Doing the minimum # of quests (8) per section.
- Right now I am at a very low 69 and I just finished the second part of RR.
- I am on track to hit 70 at the end of SR.
This is how I see things... if a player can run the same content 2 times while surpassing the minimum number of quests needed to move on... was good intention actually paving the road to hell? If nothing had changed... I would have hit 70 at the end of Spinward as did my other 70's. I would have completed 16 minimum quests per section and I would be able to get both of my artifact weapons. Alas, that is not the case...
- Run EE while doing 30 to 36 quests in each map.
- Then running it again using the minimum of 24 quests to reach 70.
- To reach the same place that my other toons were after doing a minimum of 48 quests per map.
So all of this effort and it does not seem that anything was done. The grind is still the same grind. I am not complaining I am just trying to support a case to change the needed XP to level... and using empirical evidence to do so.
We will do this in Econ terms... since it is only appropriate.
- When something is doubled... it makes it twice as hard to reach. This creates a Depression
- When and effort to alleviate this Depression is made, the rate of gain is doubled... it makes the situation the same as it was before the change.
- When you seek to alleviate that issue in an effort to make people happy, you decrease the avenues for earning said gain by half... it returns everything back to the initial Depression.
Yes, we all know that the 8 quests needed per section is only a suggestion. Look into the fact that I leveled from 26 to 60 in less than a week. Look into the fact that my 10 to 12 quests per section took me 4 days to hit 67 3/4. Look into the fact that my extra effort from 67 3/4 to 69 took an extra 2 days. Look into the fact that I have 4 other guildies finding the same exact scenario.
Take into account, also, that currently I am able to play 6 to 8 hours a day.. and I play him more than my main right now. Imagine if you will the frustration of a newly 60 casual player who will presume that the grind will be less... and they can expect to hit 70 at the end of EE.
This GWF of mine, named Atwors, started his journey at 26. For some reason I got tired of leveling my HR and found new focus with him. My idea was not only to level my character, but to see if the NEW system was actually going to help level players faster from 60 to 70... as it was advertised.
Wors got his arti weapon at 67 and he had no problems with handling giants and what not throughout EE. That is not the issue... the issue is this.
I found myself at 67 3/4 and no where else to go. So I as talking to some guildies who are in the same boat. We all leveled 60 to 70 in the first weeks after M6 hit and now we are leveling another toon in this "era". One of us... out of the 4 or 5... with a big Azure boost is on target to be 70 at the end of Spinward. The rest of us are in it... and finding the same thing I did. BTW... we are all running with over 40% boost to XP. Me... I am running 3 borrowed r7 Azures with Inscribed Clothes.
- Finished DS at mid 62, after I decided to do 10 to 12 quests per section. That decision, will be my rule from now on. Grinding SH and Seeds quests to hit 63.
- Started RR at 63 and finished @ high 64. Grinding SH and Seeds, Vault of the Nine quests to 65.
- Headed to FP at 'just' 65 and finishing at mid 66.
- Started SR at mid 66... finished at 67 3/4. Grinding SH and Seeds quests to 70... was my initial thought.
Then a guildie suggested that I jump in DS and do the first 8 over and over again until I hit 70. My statement was this... "Why not just run the whole thing all over again?"
So that is where I am at.
- I finished round 2 in DS at mid 68. Doing the minimum # of quests (8) per section.
- Right now I am at a very low 69 and I just finished the second part of RR.
- I am on track to hit 70 at the end of SR.
This is how I see things... if a player can run the same content 2 times while surpassing the minimum number of quests needed to move on... was good intention actually paving the road to hell? If nothing had changed... I would have hit 70 at the end of Spinward as did my other 70's. I would have completed 16 minimum quests per section and I would be able to get both of my artifact weapons. Alas, that is not the case...
- Run EE while doing 30 to 36 quests in each map.
- Then running it again using the minimum of 24 quests to reach 70.
- To reach the same place that my other toons were after doing a minimum of 48 quests per map.
So all of this effort and it does not seem that anything was done. The grind is still the same grind. I am not complaining I am just trying to support a case to change the needed XP to level... and using empirical evidence to do so.
We will do this in Econ terms... since it is only appropriate.
- When something is doubled... it makes it twice as hard to reach. This creates a Depression
- When and effort to alleviate this Depression is made, the rate of gain is doubled... it makes the situation the same as it was before the change.
- When you seek to alleviate that issue in an effort to make people happy, you decrease the avenues for earning said gain by half... it returns everything back to the initial Depression.
Yes, we all know that the 8 quests needed per section is only a suggestion. Look into the fact that I leveled from 26 to 60 in less than a week. Look into the fact that my 10 to 12 quests per section took me 4 days to hit 67 3/4. Look into the fact that my extra effort from 67 3/4 to 69 took an extra 2 days. Look into the fact that I have 4 other guildies finding the same exact scenario.
Take into account, also, that currently I am able to play 6 to 8 hours a day.. and I play him more than my main right now. Imagine if you will the frustration of a newly 60 casual player who will presume that the grind will be less... and they can expect to hit 70 at the end of EE.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
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Comments
Thought this was going nowhere at all. What I did next: I bought the lathander's cloak and lathander's belt from the auction house and slot them with 2 rank 7 azures which I took off from my main, now I already had 3 of them in my head, arms and feet > This gave me a 55% XP bonus. Also I used the XP boost that could be claimed from the vanguard pack last week.
I started taking quests in Spinward again and I think i did over 35 quests when I finally became level 70. Conclusion is, the reduced amount of quests did not affect anything after all, anything! Because you would still need to be 70 to equip your weapon and still need to do more than 3x16 quests to see something rewarding.
<Saints of Hope>
One of the things that really annoys me about this game is how they just make bigger numbers everywhere... players should be at 70 (and possibly even fakeleveled once) by the time they finish Spinward. While cutting down the required vigilant quests to half, they should have cut the required XP to 70 by at least one third. Or, better yet, in half, and not boosted the amount of XP per quest.
It's disheartening as an "old level 70" to be getting 2k XP per campaign quest (that we've been grinding forever already) in order to claw our way through the 1.785 million XP required to fake level. It's even worse with a "new level 70" character who has *maybe* one Rank 4 power. But the other option is to just continuously grind EE in order to fakelevel faster to get more power points so that the newer 70s can "catch up" with the older 70s.
The math involved is so convoluted and just doesn't work. There was no real thought put into things.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
My CW... has 2 rank 4 powers. My GF has one. Both of them were played at 70 before the increase, but only leveled a couple times each. My TR, who was 60 for a few months before M6... has every power he uses regularly at 4.
I don't think this was a math issue, which is obvious. This is more of a sweeping motion... 255% increase to needed XP to level with a "large" unreleased increase in XP given. Considering that the game REALLY starts at 70... and people really start to buy things at 70... why put the brakes on players wanting to level their characters to 70?
You are also 100% right... Older 70 is much more powerful and will remain so, than the Newer 70. Meaning that a player who sat at 60 for years will be more successful in game than someone who has been playing for a few months. That even goes for people who are willing to pay for things like completing IWD, Shar or DR. They still will be missing the Power Points needed to upgrade their ACTUAL powers.
I have met players who have 115 power points used. My TR ONLY has 85 and I started playing the game with him in March. My GF and CW have 71 and 72 points respectively.
I suggested a decrease down to 1 million per level... instead of 1.785 million. That would make everyone happy.
"I am running 3 borrowed r7 Azures with Inscribed Clothes."
Whilst using Azures does give an XP boost it can make leveling MORE difficult as you are missing out on stats that would help your build be able to work in PvE/PvP better. You take longer to kill things for the chance to gain more XP.
You're also better off saving up for Elemental shirt/pants rather than buying the Inscribed ones. Spend your Zen on a Mount next time. The increased speed of a 110% Epic mount really helps.
This "grind" people want for the anxiousness of being lvl 70 becomes frustrating when people suffer from a "Jetsons Syndrome."
Jane Jetson says "I spent a while fifteen seconds at the check out lane at the grocery store, George. Sorry I am late." Well, even in the future it's not going to be that fast.
Your BEST bet for levling 60-70 is to do the Elemental quests IN ORDER, and meanwhiles casually pick up some dungeons, SKirmishes, and CTAs for variety. CTAs are awesome for XP, enchants/ gear for levling artis, and a break from the regular "grind".
Also, go back in previous areas and check for side quests you may have missed. Those little bits of now easy XP in say Neverdeath really add up fast.
Invoke, invoke, invoke, and do your Leadership.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I was surprisingly okay with the 750k it took to fakelevel. It took awhile to get to, sure, but it just felt... "fair".
Umm.. what would you suggest to slot in Utility if not Azures (or Brutals)? What can go in Utility slots that will "help your build be able to work in PvE/PvP better"? The only boosts for Utility slots are Movement, Glory, Gold, and/or XP. Granted, Tymora or Dragonhoards, etc., could be slotted, but those don't help you kill things either.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
even on double xp week my pali finished spin at 69( started at 66) and a couple of bars.
its sad that the fastest lvling for 67+ is to go back to DS, ( im atwors guildee) and grind the 1st and second areas ( you'll need to do both sections or you'll run out of quests).
Also, my GWF has no problems in a fight... with or without his utility slots filled with r7 azures. Are you kidding me... he has been wiping the floors with 10 to 12 mobs that my TR could not handle at that level. Utility slots have no real benefit for combat.
All of my 70 toons have r7 Dark slotted in their Utility slots. That is not something that will change my gameplay much.
I will never become a player with a Leadership Army, Mules or an Invoke Army. I play ALL of my characters... because I like playing them. Why make a character that you don't play?
Maybe you are not sure of who you are talking to... I don't blame you... but I am not a noobie. 2 Epic mounts, 13 different companions, on my main alone.
That last part was superfluous, for this character... he ran through every zone, did every skirmish and EVERY QUEST. In fact he has EVERY zone title possible. I think that Cryptic needs to explain to people, or adjust things, that they WILL NOT be 70 when you finish Spinward. I did EVERY AREA 2 times... I did many quests 4 to 5 times each. You try leveling a toon from 60 to 70 now... you ill see the exact same things I do.
I have run ToS about 20 times in the last couple weeks. I would be 70 already if they had not changed the amount of XP given to lower level members for running a DD. My last turn in of ToS was 8800... last Thursday, before the patch... I got 22,800 and a guildie got 31k. Mybe next time you should read everything I wrote.
CTAs are garbage when they do not have updated rewards or they are quickly repeated. The last one, Storm Front, was offered up 2 months ago. CTAs are for new players and people who need to be entertained within the game. I seek my own entertainment... and it does not include redoing the same fight 1000 times over. I grew bored of the Summer Festival within the first 2 hours.
I don't like being considered mindless livestock.
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I would suggest keeping up the ToD dailies as an additional source of xp -- you're going to want the boons anyway. Better group for the lairs though, since the up-scaling to 70 doesn't work that well.
I much prefer how it was originally when the grind from 60 -70 took you to lvl cap by just completing each of the EE zones. The game is seriously lacking in other content to compensate for the XP needed to reach max lvl now.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I doubt they will do anything about it again.
ONLY level during double weeks, get your toons to 60 and park them, then wait, then play like a speed addict for 3-4 days until you get to 70. Thats the only way to do it anymore.. they usually have one of these every 2-3 or 4 months apart.
Let's say that I did 192 Vigilance quests (16 x 3 x 4) for my level 70 toons. Add in there the killing quests which would be another 6 to 8 per region. Add the end quests for each area to get the Seeds... which for all of us was 4. None of which was boosted by using 3 to 4 azure r7s, just Inscribed.
192 + 28(conservatively speaking) + 4 = 224 quests to go from 60 to 70... after the release of M6. THESE are M6 numbers.
Now, current affairs, 36 quests per region on the first pass... 144 Vigilance quests. Add the Killing quests, which as I said were about 6 to 8 per region. Add the Seed quests that end each of these regions (4). Then add another 24 quests per region and the killing quests... lets make it an even 30 more quests per region. Add in the daily run through the SH quests and the Druid based Seed quests... which equals another 5 quests/day, so 25 total so far. All using Inscribed and 3 r7 azures.
144 + 28 + 4 = 176 + 120 + 25 = 321 quests, in the current situation, to get from 60 to 70. That number is being VERY conservative... VERY!. These are the number AFTER the XP/Vigilance quest fix.
The math does not lie.
@strumslinger I would ask you to show this to the devs as an explanation as to why the XP issue NEEDS to be amended.
All of the XP changes have not made the game more enjoyable... it turned what was a horrible grind... into a veiled solution that is actually a more horrible grind. This has also made it so any other option would take more time.
A bar on the XP slider is essentially 30k, for me right now. It takes a little more than 2 (actually about 2.3) quests to fill one bar, which does not include the killing of the mobs related to the quests. There are 20 bars per level. I have filled over 180 bars... as I am now 69 3/8 and at the end of RR.
2.3 x 180 = 414. Roughly... 414 quests to get where I am now.
Take your pick which number seems better?
BTW... I finally hit 70... after heading straight to SR from RR. I ended up doing 24 more quests for about 5/8 of a level. Since I had all the areas open I ended up 'Cherry Picking' the quests I wanted. I could have done fewer quests... but I didn't... since I had at least 32k worth of quests to turn in at the SH.
Still - it's their toybox and they can do as they please.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
While it was nice to see some tweaks to the post-60 experience, I think they need to do another pass on the amount of experience needed to get to 70. It doesn't need to be EZ mode, but it needs to be a lot faster.
I appreciate your support. Also, if anyone is interested in challenging my research I am all for it. I would love to be proven wrong. Leveling, as my post said, was very hard after 60. I never came out and directly said it, but ironzerg79 did, this will send new players packing faster than anything else. The game is fluid before 60... very smooth with visible transitions from area to area.
What really boggles my mind is when someone with not a lot of experience with the game would do this WITHOUT r7 azures... and how long it would take.
I remember that someone said that the experience needed to get from 1 to 60 was the same amount that it took to go from 60 to 70. In all actuality... they were wrong... you need more XP from 60 to 70.
The pacing should be set to give people enough new abilities just as they're getting comfortable with their current abilities. And it should have enough hints as to end-game stuff to tantalize someone enough to keep pushing on to max level.
Levels 1 - 60 do this perfectly. Then the grind kicks into high gear at level 60. Advancement is extremely slow and abilities come even slower. It's easy to burn out and not finish the journey.
I'd take all the Vigilance Quests and Kill quests, add them up (plus a buffer to account for killing experience) and make the total experience equal to 90% of the experience needed to get to 70. Then assume the other 10% is going to come from other activities or quests.
There's no reason to draw out the journey to 70 now. There's more than enough content to keep people busy, and with Module 8 likely around the corner, they should be far enough ahead of the "content" curve to keep up with new players.
Making Sharandar (the other's don't seem like they are anywhere near possible at 60) lvl 70 seems stupid since I mean what is the point in leveling if EVERYTHING is locked behind 70? Where is the content? Running Spinward all day sucks HAMSTER. Make Sharandar 60, Dread Ring 64 and Well of Dragons 68, make the XP decent, like maybe half of Spinward and 60 - 70 wouldn't be nearly as much pain. I would suggest leaving IWD 70 but moving the Sigil quest to somewhere around lvl 60, it was not difficult at all to do at 60.
I worked on my chars and got a lot of Sharandar done before 70, hell would have had my fourth boon from there too on my main before 70 if not for the 10 sparks a day + 50 once a week HAMSTER. Also didn't bother with Sharandar gear since by the time I was 70 I was able to almost immediately win a couple daily PVP's and grab a decent set of armor. A couple days later I ran a few kessel runs, got carried a bit for a couple runs, hooked up with some players from a guild and filled in for their 5th and picked up several pieces of alliance gear. I then did PVP and grabbed some boots and only need a helmet at this point and plan on getting an alliance one. All IL 130 stuff IIRC.
Not done with the final Sharandar boon but obviously won't bother with the IL 120 gear there. It makes no sense to make that gear 120 (and so costly) if you won't buy it until you're done getting boons, and at this point you will be lvl 70 so you can pretty easily snag a couple pieces of PVP gear and some alliance stuff and quickly be past the gear available there.
TBH, I just don't get what the devs were thinking. Even if they didn't adjust the XP needed by much (or even at all) they could quite easily make progression obvious by unlocking a campaign at 60, giving decent daily XP there, and make it far more rewarding and less tedious to do. That way even if they had boon requirements for something you are guaranteed to have them just by following the storyline.
It was like a full sprint to 60... followed by a decathlon to 70. There was even a point in time where I gained 3 levels in 15 minutes and 5 in 60 minutes. When I leveled my other toons... I would average about one level per hour.
I realized yesterday that I had not even finish, or even started, some areas... well because I just don't like them. The other areas were 100% completed in couple of hours...tops.
As soon as my GWF hit 70, I had farmed enough seals to get him wearing full Alliance gear and r7s, for a iL jump of 400 points. Which leaves him 43 points shy of hitting t2s. Granted... he will not be able to get the Lostmauth set for a while... since he can only farm what he can reach. I guess I could farm WoD with guildies.
Many of us have asked for this before... Shar, DR and WoD should be given as a ramp up to IWD and 70 content. I think the 60, 64 and 68 is a reasonable number. There has to be another offering to the masses. Yes, I know you just changed all of that... nice that it was AFTER I opened it all up. Not many players we so lucky.