It's always a damage loss to ignore armor pen; and, it's a waste of inventory slots to have a another set of gear for trash NPCs. The harder NPC need 50% or more ignore, you're not going to get more dps from any other stat.
Thank you for the info about the NPC's DR values. Really helpful to know what is the requirement for each zone.
If you are min maxing, there is no reason that anyone cannot cap ARP without sacrificing Power/Crit. Getting Arp without Gemming for it almost comes natural.
It's always a damage loss to ignore armor pen; and, it's a waste of inventory slots to have a another set of gear for trash NPCs
The harder NPC need 50% or more ignore, you're not going to get more dps from any other stat.
a) The post I replied to was buzzing 60% - which is wasteful, as there are only a very few opponents that actually have that high a DR. Unless all your gaming day is spent with "Blood, Sweat, Toil, in Tia's", where this actually might make some sense. 50% is a different, much more reasonable figure and leads to way less slack.
b) I can easily create ACT parses which prove your opinion wrong - by choosing the right areas to run. I entirely depends on mob mix and their DRs. Even in IwD, according to the table in the OP, you'll lose some 5% damage against a minority of mobs with 50% ResIgn.
c) Inventory space is a completely different topic, IMHO. But carrying e.g. one (personalized or not) Adamantite Ring of Piercing with a decent Dark in the offensive slot for 800-1k ArPen =~= 8-10% DR, which you swap in for the bossfight against the Ring of Recovery worn for the dungeon run shouldn't be the cause for breakdown. It's a matter of how this is done, and there are several ways to get that implemented with as little fuzz as possible. Another, completely inventory-neutral method would e.g. be to get that extra ArPen from a ring on your Augment pet, so that you can swap it over to another companion you've currently not summoned. And after all, gear balancing is a permanent process...
d) To each his own, but the math stands on my side... ...excess ArPen is wasteful, as slots could be used to up Crit or Power. A solid 4.5k to 5k ArPen (ca. 40%-45% ResIgn) is the most DPS-efficient if and when you use the capacities liberated by that to Dmg-boosting use in early Campaingistan, with 5.5k (your 50% ResIgn) for IwD. Losing 5% damage on 10% of mobs versus losing 3%-ish on the remaining 90% of mobs. There is a minimax point, that varies from area to area, and outside of Tia's temple and certain bossfights, this is qquite a bit below 60% ResIgn.
e) I'm all for upping ArPen to par first, before investing into Crit/Power - that much is true. But that 60% mark is at best misleading. Hence my post with a certain amount of background. "Don't go below 4k ArPen @ 70" is something I'd immediately sign up to. A bit more is definitely better.
...but putting up laziness- or stuffedness-caused personal situations up as absolute truths just doesn't cut it.
1 (covers a,&d): It's dependent on class if you even need more than 40-50% from gear, as various classes have skills that lower armor; and, there are enchants that lower NPC's DR by utilizing a weapon's slot. This can lets skills bridge the requirement or allow players to ignore the skills if gear alone provides means to fully damage a target.
The statement about having 60% wouldn't even apply to Tiamat, unless she was in an clean state. So, having 60% would only be helpful if you were hitting an un-buffed hardened target or if you have no ability to uses skills to lower armor. I am not defending the 60% from gear point. If you can hit the NPC's cap, move to some other stat.
B ): You can create a straw man argument if you want. I do not think anyone was making that claim that you need 60% for any of the campaign zone. A subjective argument about class verse NPC type is pointless. The only thing you would have to prove is that there exist a better stat than restiance ignore before the cap is reached ( I am sure there are exception with powers that ignore DR, so don't bother).
C ): You brought up the another gear sets as alternative for wasting stats on arm pen. Both paths provide waste. Some classes can not avoid ending up over doing it and wasting stats regardless.
The claim was ignoring ignore was a bad idea. If you're capped on that NPCs, then there is no controversy. It does not matter how that was achieved. If you want to assert about only needing the averaged DR resistance for a zone, that's your choice. Personally, I, use NPCs like the Dire Bears as a zone benchmark because they are by far the most dangerous NPC in that zone.
There was a time when people said we don't need more than 24% ArmP. So it is no more the case?
...that was the pre-Mod-6 cap. Bosses then had a max DR of 24%. With the eruption of Mod 6, however a wide chasm opened up and destroyed half of Neverwinter this is no longer true...
With respect bro, you are talking from a long time player perspective. Many cannot realistically do what you are suggesting. Swap this ring with a dark for another ring with an azure and what not.
What people can realistically do is focus on making high ranking darks and getting the biggest bang for their buck. Get your Armpen(Resistance ignored) to 60% FIRST, then focus on other stats. You'll save a boat load of ads and be most effective in all content.
That was my point. I suppose I could have been a little more descriptive.
It's always a damage loss to ignore armor pen; and, it's a waste of inventory slots to have a another set of gear for trash NPCs
The harder NPC need 50% or more ignore, you're not going to get more dps from any other stat.
a) The post I replied to was buzzing 60% - which is wasteful, as there are only a very few opponents that actually have that high a DR. Unless all your gaming day is spent with "Blood, Sweat, Toil, in Tia's", where this actually might make some sense. 50% is a different, much more reasonable figure and leads to way less slack.
b) I can easily create ACT parses which prove your opinion wrong - by choosing the right areas to run. I entirely depends on mob mix and their DRs. Even in IwD, according to the table in the OP, you'll lose some 5% damage against a minority of mobs with 50% ResIgn.
c) Inventory space is a completely different topic, IMHO. But carrying e.g. one (personalized or not) Adamantite Ring of Piercing with a decent Dark in the offensive slot for 800-1k ArPen =~= 8-10% DR, which you swap in for the bossfight against the Ring of Recovery worn for the dungeon run shouldn't be the cause for breakdown. It's a matter of how this is done, and there are several ways to get that implemented with as little fuzz as possible. Another, completely inventory-neutral method would e.g. be to get that extra ArPen from a ring on your Augment pet, so that you can swap it over to another companion you've currently not summoned. And after all, gear balancing is a permanent process...
d) To each his own, but the math stands on my side... ...excess ArPen is wasteful, as slots could be used to up Crit or Power. A solid 4.5k to 5k ArPen (ca. 40%-45% ResIgn) is the most DPS-efficient if and when you use the capacities liberated by that to Dmg-boosting use in early Campaingistan, with 5.5k (your 50% ResIgn) for IwD. Losing 5% damage on 10% of mobs versus losing 3%-ish on the remaining 90% of mobs. There is a minimax point, that varies from area to area, and outside of Tia's temple and certain bossfights, this is qquite a bit below 60% ResIgn.
e) I'm all for upping ArPen to par first, before investing into Crit/Power - that much is true. But that 60% mark is at best misleading. Hence my post with a certain amount of background. "Don't go below 4k ArPen @ 70" is something I'd immediately sign up to. A bit more is definitely better.
...but putting up laziness- or stuffedness-caused personal situations up as absolute truths just doesn't cut it.
Post edited by jugger71 on
0
kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
1 (covers a,&d): It's dependent on class if you even need more than 40-50% from gear, as various classes have skills that lower armor; and, there are enchants that lower NPC's DR by utilizing a weapon's slot. This can lets skills bridge the requirement or allow players to ignore the skills if gear alone provides means to fully damage a target.
The statement about having 60% wouldn't even apply to Tiamat, unless she was in an clean state. So, having 60% would only be helpful if you were hitting an un-buffed hardened target or if you have no ability to uses skills to lower armor. I am not defending the 60% from gear point. If you can hit the NPC's cap, move to some other stat.
B ): You can create a straw man argument if you want. I do not think anyone was making that claim that you need 60% for any of the campaign zone. A subjective argument about class verse NPC type is pointless. The only thing you would have to prove is that there exist a better stat than restiance ignore before the cap is reached ( I am sure there are exception with powers that ignore DR, so don't bother).
C ): You brought up the another gear sets as alternative for wasting stats on arm pen. Both paths provide waste. Some classes can not avoid ending up over doing it and wasting stats regardless.
The claim was ignoring ignore was a bad idea. If you're capped on that NPCs, then there is no controversy. It does not matter how that was achieved. If you want to assert about only needing the averaged DR resistance for a zone, that's your choice. Personally, I, use NPCs like the Dire Bears as a zone benchmark because they are by far the most dangerous NPC in that zone.
You need to remember ARP is not the same as debuffs. If you have enough ARP to negate the target defense, most debuffs become damage bonuses.
@kieranmtorn, I am just not 100% certain what powers/skills do turn into a bonus and what ones do not turn into a damage bonus; As an example would be with certain weapon enchantments that lower defense, such as plague fire’s “reducing defense by ‘x’ amount.” I am unwilling to argue with suicidalgodot about what does what, or have this a character class and skill discussion, when I do not even know where to find information about how that works.
The game just has misleading info in the player stat ‘resistance ignored‘, when it says resistance can not be lowered more than their maximum resistance. Is it a bug that skills even turn damage reduction negative? It would not surprise me if DR and skills that reduce it was not “working as intended .”
Anyway, I agree with the premise of getting an NPC damage resistance to at least zero because of how damage resistance inflates an NPC’s effective health pool. They are hard enough to kill with the developers buff to NPC’s health and the campaign zones are outright painful with a character with low resistance ignore (I tried it, it was not fun).
I appreciate the original poster providing this information. It helped immensely when I found that information in the GWF guide by lazaroth666 about how essential armor pen is in this game.
Edit: The quote system on this forums is annoying.
Post edited by wardell2015 on
0
kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
@kieranmotrn, I am just not 100% certain what powers/skills do turn into a bonus and what ones do not turn into a damage bonus; As an example would be with certain weapon enchantments that lower defense, such as plague fire’s “reducing defense by ‘x’ amount.” I am unwilling to argue with suicidalgodot about what does what, or have this a character class and skill discussion, when I do not even know where to find information about how that works.
The game just has misleading info in the player stat ‘resistance ignored‘, when it says resistance can not be lowered more than their maximum resistance. Is it a bug that skills even turn damage reduction negative? It would not surprise me if DR and skills that reduce it was not “working as intended .”
Anyway, I agree with the premise of getting an NPC damage resistance to at least zero because of how damage resistance inflates an NPC’s effective health pool. They are hard enough to kill with the developers buff to NPC’s health and the campaign zones are outright painful with a character with low resistance ignore (I tried it, it was not fun).
I appreciate the original poster providing this information. It helped immensely when I found that information in the GWF guide by lazaroth666 about how essential armor pen is in this game.
Edit: The quote system on this forums is annoying.
You might also wish to peruse Kaelac's Mod 5 DC Guide for some more information on the buffs/debuffs dished out by Clerics.
Ignore everything relating to diminishing returns in both guides, though. With the advent of Mod 6 this has become mostly obsolete, DimRet are - for the few stats where they still are in effect - way less painful. This ofc doesn't affect the declining effects due to the "speed increase" formula for Recovery...
Comments
Thank you for the info about the NPC's DR values. Really helpful to know what is the requirement for each zone.
a) The post I replied to was buzzing 60% - which is wasteful, as there are only a very few opponents that actually have that high a DR. Unless all your gaming day is spent with "Blood, Sweat, Toil, in Tia's", where this actually might make some sense. 50% is a different, much more reasonable figure and leads to way less slack.
b) I can easily create ACT parses which prove your opinion wrong - by choosing the right areas to run. I entirely depends on mob mix and their DRs. Even in IwD, according to the table in the OP, you'll lose some 5% damage against a minority of mobs with 50% ResIgn.
c) Inventory space is a completely different topic, IMHO. But carrying e.g. one (personalized or not) Adamantite Ring of Piercing with a decent Dark in the offensive slot for 800-1k ArPen =~= 8-10% DR, which you swap in for the bossfight against the Ring of Recovery worn for the dungeon run shouldn't be the cause for breakdown. It's a matter of how this is done, and there are several ways to get that implemented with as little fuzz as possible. Another, completely inventory-neutral method would e.g. be to get that extra ArPen from a ring on your Augment pet, so that you can swap it over to another companion you've currently not summoned. And after all, gear balancing is a permanent process...
d) To each his own, but the math stands on my side... ...excess ArPen is wasteful, as slots could be used to up Crit or Power. A solid 4.5k to 5k ArPen (ca. 40%-45% ResIgn) is the most DPS-efficient if and when you use the capacities liberated by that to Dmg-boosting use in early Campaingistan, with 5.5k (your 50% ResIgn) for IwD. Losing 5% damage on 10% of mobs versus losing 3%-ish on the remaining 90% of mobs. There is a minimax point, that varies from area to area, and outside of Tia's temple and certain bossfights, this is qquite a bit below 60% ResIgn.
e) I'm all for upping ArPen to par first, before investing into Crit/Power - that much is true. But that 60% mark is at best misleading. Hence my post with a certain amount of background. "Don't go below 4k ArPen @ 70" is something I'd immediately sign up to. A bit more is definitely better.
...but putting up laziness- or stuffedness-caused personal situations up as absolute truths just doesn't cut it.
1 (covers a,&d): It's dependent on class if you even need more than 40-50% from gear, as various classes have skills that lower armor; and, there are enchants that lower NPC's DR by utilizing a weapon's slot. This can lets skills bridge the requirement or allow players to ignore the skills if gear alone provides means to fully damage a target.
The statement about having 60% wouldn't even apply to Tiamat, unless she was in an clean state. So, having 60% would only be helpful if you were hitting an un-buffed hardened target or if you have no ability to uses skills to lower armor. I am not defending the 60% from gear point. If you can hit the NPC's cap, move to some other stat.
B ): You can create a straw man argument if you want. I do not think anyone was making that claim that you need 60% for any of the campaign zone. A subjective argument about class verse NPC type is pointless. The only thing you would have to prove is that there exist a better stat than restiance ignore before the cap is reached ( I am sure there are exception with powers that ignore DR, so don't bother).
C ): You brought up the another gear sets as alternative for wasting stats on arm pen. Both paths provide waste. Some classes can not avoid ending up over doing it and wasting stats regardless.
The claim was ignoring ignore was a bad idea. If you're capped on that NPCs, then there is no controversy. It does not matter how that was achieved. If you want to assert about only needing the averaged DR resistance for a zone, that's your choice. Personally, I, use NPCs like the Dire Bears as a zone benchmark because they are by far the most dangerous NPC in that zone.
...that was the pre-Mod-6 cap. Bosses then had a max DR of 24%. With the eruption of Mod 6, however a wide chasm opened up and destroyed half of Neverwinter this is no longer true...
What people can realistically do is focus on making high ranking darks and getting the biggest bang for their buck. Get your Armpen(Resistance ignored) to 60% FIRST, then focus on other stats. You'll save a boat load of ads and be most effective in all content.
That was my point. I suppose I could have been a little more descriptive.
Also, is that last sentence really necessary?
You need to remember ARP is not the same as debuffs. If you have enough ARP to negate the target defense, most debuffs become damage bonuses.
The game just has misleading info in the player stat ‘resistance ignored‘, when it says resistance can not be lowered more than their maximum resistance. Is it a bug that skills even turn damage reduction negative? It would not surprise me if DR and skills that reduce it was not “working as intended .”
Anyway, I agree with the premise of getting an NPC damage resistance to at least zero because of how damage resistance inflates an NPC’s effective health pool. They are hard enough to kill with the developers buff to NPC’s health and the campaign zones are outright painful with a character with low resistance ignore (I tried it, it was not fun).
I appreciate the original poster providing this information. It helped immensely when I found that information in the GWF guide by lazaroth666 about how essential armor pen is in this game.
Edit: The quote system on this forums is annoying.
As a general rule, "never, ever, trust the tool tips". I generally will test for myself with ACT or consult with previous research. Some of the research done prior to mod6 is still good, you just have to remember the changes (for example:
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac’s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/)
As examples: Plague Fire, Terror, High Prophet, High Vizier, Ray of Enfeeblement are all damage boosts if your ARP is high enough.
Ignore everything relating to diminishing returns in both guides, though. With the advent of Mod 6 this has become mostly obsolete, DimRet are - for the few stats where they still are in effect - way less painful. This ofc doesn't affect the declining effects due to the "speed increase" formula for Recovery...
And when/if you want to do your own experiments/analyses, you'll want ACT (Advanced Combat Tracker) and it's NW plugin.