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Will marksmen ever be useful in pvp?

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  • Sassana - IllyfueSassana - Illyfue Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I meant buff prots a bit more. We cant all be like Blue, seriously. xD

    Bards need nerfing. They have too many OP abilities, specially vs a melee class.
    Ya op ws melle maybe that u can still rush(assault, chase) even when root how thats op, and use arena stones if ur out of mana but if u can only moan and whine how bards are op roll a wind 1 and show how op u can be with 6% reduction on incoming dmg for 10s awsome OPnes

    Now on the topic mm need a boost
    So the moral is..... Exploit everything and don't tell the gms or they will take it away.

    Gotcha...

    Don't ask, don't tell.

    By FireBat

    True story
  • Summanus - IllyfueSummanus - Illyfue Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Sassana - that's funny. I have a 72 wind bard. I can tell you from experience they are OP. My point is mainly on water bard's shield, it has too many pro points for it.

    But yes, lets carry on topic. Boost MM.
    Summanus | 80 Diamond Geezer Protector - retired

    Play the game, don't let the game play you.
  • Ghundrop - EyrdaGhundrop - Eyrda Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ya op ws melle maybe that u can still rush(assault, chase) even when root how thats op, and use arena stones if ur out of mana but if u can only moan and whine how bards are op roll a wind 1 and show how op u can be with 6% reduction on incoming dmg for 10s awsome OPnes

    Now on the topic mm need a boost

    I don't know the plight of wind bards but I know that most bards who come to arena are water and those who are not full water still go into the water tree for that shield. Funny enough Soul mms burst of rage takes out the bards water shield. You can qq about wind, we can qq about precision.
  • Sassana - IllyfueSassana - Illyfue Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    yea i know the 6hit skill burst the shield in seconds, and dont qq about bards i can qq i cant pvp with my wind because prot 100% stun alot.
    So the moral is..... Exploit everything and don't tell the gms or they will take it away.

    Gotcha...

    Don't ask, don't tell.

    By FireBat

    True story
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM3gNo3INOU&feature=youtu.be

    here is a video from today showing our skills and somewhat idea of gamestyle, can do arena/1on1 as well showing more of how it works as its not much cc and stuff in 12v12.. but media maker stopped working for me, need new program as this program uses comersial at middle from time to time that you will notice if you watch the video.. and i know its a few mistakes in there like not canceling the capturing of middle base and attacking dudette but at the time i though i would make it before he went to me or that vamp would cc :(
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Credits to BerenOneHand for the awesome sig

    New arena video (2015/05/01):
    youtube.com/watch?v=o3_ds-W-Hpo
  • Aishleen - EyrdaAishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    You should learn to use more than 1-6 and stop clicking so many skills :D

    And holy ****... no wonder so many ppl are so clueless when I'm talking about flags (at least on this server)... at least this video kinda proves it I bet majority of those noobs don't open the god damn map non stop to see where to go -.-

    No wonder in IR ppl are so disoriented too.


    Super pro tip: unless fighting, open map every 5 seconds for a short period to see what's going on.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • fthawefthawe Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    From the video I can conclude a few things

    the 6 shot skill is very good at dps and wrath spamming

    Your skills are very good - quick cast, normal cd and massive damage. Apart from that has debuffs on opponents such as mana drain and slow/ensnare.

    Potentially mm's get super fast movement speed, racial + speed buff and slow them as well. The range gives advantages over terrain from melee. The racial speed and vamp form makes speed enhancement on mount, other classes not so.

    When your client crashed you might want to lay off the mastery and buy a better graphics card. And RAM.

    Shield + High damage + low cooldown + quick casts + AoE
    I don't see the problem cept I don't see kiting , even 4 meters advantage are alot. E.G vamp to mage. and exposure. you stand in the middle of the area and start shooting. if your gear was much worse, that wouldn't be an option because you'd be pummeled to death. Same with any class
  • Borsook - EyrdaBorsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    fthawe wrote: »
    From the video I can conclude a few things

    the 6 shot skill is very good at dps and wrath spamming
    No really? This video just shows how gimped MAGES are as well. MMs complain of lack of CC, but at least holy hell their 6 shot generates TONS of orbs. I struggle by casting every second skills to generate orbs. Even Fury of Ice is ****, probably because it's an AoE and the wrath generation is nerfed.

    MM > Mage in wrath generation, period.
    fthawe wrote: »
    I don't see the problem cept I don't see kiting , even 4 meters advantage are alot.
    Check his debuffs. He's slowed or stunned or ensnared and silenced at same time. There's also the silence glitch when you press a skill but get silenced and then can't move for 5sec+. There is no kiting in this game against sins. Doesn't exist.
  • Aishleen - EyrdaAishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Check his debuffs. He's slowed or stunned or ensnared and silenced at same time. There's also the silence glitch when you press a skill but get silenced and then can't move for 5sec+. There is no kiting in this game against sins. Doesn't exist.
    Too bad ppl kite me a lot in 12's and arena, maybe you guys are doing it wrong. Who's fault is you try to cast when silenced? (that's the glitch you're talking about) Stop spamming non stop and react to the situation.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • fthawefthawe Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Too bad ppl kite me a lot in 12's and arena, maybe you guys are doing it wrong. Who's fault is you try to cast when silenced? (that's the glitch you're talking about) Stop spamming non stop and react to the situation.

    There's another bug that goes too, just the sin uses
    Dark Nightmare
    Victim runs
    Victim's screen moves back and forth seems glitchy and ends up after 2 secs in the same position as before.
    Assassin wonders why victim is dumb. Assassin attacks again.
    Victim runs away 5 meters.
    Assassin still can hit because on their screen victim is 2 meters away.
    Victim is nearly dead. Victim runs more. About to cast.
    Assassin pulls toward them/interrupts them and attacks within 1 second.
    Victim is dead.

    As for mm's I'd say they got the upper hand of skill usage (PVE) and less on the CC (PVP)
    Assassins pretty useless in PvE, no aoe, can't hold aggro without dying (basics) cannot slow the mobs running toward it. just the extra dd that's there to make the run faster.
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    fthawe wrote: »
    From the video I can conclude a few things

    the 6 shot skill is very good at dps and wrath spamming

    Your skills are very good - quick cast, normal cd and massive damage. Apart from that has debuffs on opponents such as mana drain and slow/ensnare.

    Potentially mm's get super fast movement speed, racial + speed buff and slow them as well. The range gives advantages over terrain from melee. The racial speed and vamp form makes speed enhancement on mount, other classes not so.

    When your client crashed you might want to lay off the mastery and buy a better graphics card. And RAM.

    Shield + High damage + low cooldown + quick casts + AoE
    I don't see the problem cept I don't see kiting , even 4 meters advantage are alot. E.G vamp to mage. and exposure. you stand in the middle of the area and start shooting. if your gear was much worse, that wouldn't be an option because you'd be pummeled to death. Same with any class

    Yes im using 95 /85 mastery 46 crit chance and 430 crit damage, wierd if my damage is alright. We have one nice skill - 6 shots, sure. And also it cost avg 5 bullets to use and we cannot use it when we are out of bullets or it simply dont shot all if we got 1/2. speed buff is normal all classes have it? slow is useless if you cant spam it, my slow skill need 5meter range and can be cast once each 45 seconds.

    And from what do we have 4meters advantage to others?
    And range in arena really is not worth much, same for 1on1s.. melee can pretty much always charge you with one of their skills, or ohh sin got low range in that skill? they can just enter stealth and i cant even target them untill they reached me not to mention when that happen im in cc and cant really do anything back at him after that happened if he can play.. (except using badge to buy myself a second or two if we are in arena)
    fthawe wrote: »
    There's another bug that goes too, just the sin uses
    Dark Nightmare
    Victim runs
    Victim's screen moves back and forth seems glitchy and ends up after 2 secs in the same position as before.
    Assassin wonders why victim is dumb. Assassin attacks again.
    Victim runs away 5 meters.
    Assassin still can hit because on their screen victim is 2 meters away.
    Victim is nearly dead. Victim runs more. About to cast.
    Assassin pulls toward them/interrupts them and attacks within 1 second.
    Victim is dead.

    As for mm's I'd say they got the upper hand of skill usage (PVE) and less on the CC (PVP)
    Assassins pretty useless in PvE, no aoe, can't hold aggro without dying (basics) cannot slow the mobs running toward it. just the extra dd that's there to make the run faster.

    Yes assasin is useless pve they have no damage and low survivability. MM got high survivability and high avg damage. cmon are this a joke? the only class i would imagen having lower damage than us would be a bard or possibly water mage, and the class having higher dps than sin is none, assasin got the highest dps.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Credits to BerenOneHand for the awesome sig

    New arena video (2015/05/01):
    youtube.com/watch?v=o3_ds-W-Hpo
  • Aishleen - EyrdaAishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    @fthawe: that's mostly caused by lag and high ping though, especially the "hit opponent from 5 meters cuz 2 meters on sin's screen" is DEFINITELY ping.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Borsook - EyrdaBorsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ever thought that maybe MOUNTS make kiting easier? Just saying.
    And who cares cause of it? It happens thats what matters. Stop trying ot dodge it.
    fthawe wrote: »
    As for mm's I'd say they got the upper hand of skill usage (PVE) and less on the CC (PVP)
    Assassins pretty useless in PvE, no aoe, can't hold aggro without dying (basics) cannot slow the mobs running toward it. just the extra dd that's there to make the run faster.
    Tell me 1 class that can hold aggro over a boss (without aggro skills) more than an edge assassin.

    Venom assassins dont count, they're still sins.
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    You should learn to use more than 1-6 and stop clicking so many skills :D

    And holy ****... no wonder so many ppl are so clueless when I'm talking about flags (at least on this server)... at least this video kinda proves it I bet majority of those noobs don't open the god damn map non stop to see where to go -.-

    No wonder in IR ppl are so disoriented too.


    Super pro tip: unless fighting, open map every 5 seconds for a short period to see what's going on.

    If i dont spam fw dont trigger my skills so im left with 0 skills cast sometimes ;/
    Is there anything that bugs in a negative way by doing so? :confused:
    Extremely low knowledge about bugs in this game.. just some bugged spots/ skills but nothing through gameplay

    The map is bugged so often though so it can be misleading if your watching where teammates are going, but else then that yeah i guess your right..
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Credits to BerenOneHand for the awesome sig

    New arena video (2015/05/01):
    youtube.com/watch?v=o3_ds-W-Hpo
  • Aishleen - EyrdaAishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    No I don't mean to look where teammates go cuz that lags (even though it can be used as approximation). You need to look at flags all the time, sometimes you see a pattern in their capture order, so you know where the enemy is... if you're smart.

    Regardless, you gotta know all the time which flag is enemy and where to go. Spamming M when out of combat is invaluable.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • YggdrasiI - Storm LegionYggdrasiI - Storm Legion Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I dunno about others, but when playing on my dark vampire, I purposely target a marksman due to the fact that they can lower my accuracy and evasion plus/or a few other nasty surprises. I've even run into a few that managed to kite completely out of my range and utterly hand my rear to me. It was entirely infuriating.

    Disarm a priest and see how they try to keep their team mates alive with stunted heals. I know in higher scored arena matches, every little bit of attack I can muster for sympathy counts. I cannot fathom keeping a teammate alive without a weapon, especially when that weapon gives me 112 heal effect, further stunting heals.

    Going back to doing arena on my vampire... I usually run with one friend and one friend alone and then pick up whoever in pug. Guess what that friend is? A freaking marksman and she is pretty damn beast. IJS, MMs aren't so useless, especially in a group that compliments what that player can do with their class.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    [YOU- drah- sil]
    If you want to shorten my name, don't call me 'Ygg.' Call me 'Mana.'

    Grandia: Unity ☆ Teamwork ☆ Friendship I]grandia-storm.com/[/I
    ~~~~~~~~~~{ Never get left behind again. }~~~~~~~~~~
  • supernoobstersupernoobster Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    asd29 wrote: »
    Look at the people he's up against look to be lvl 1 wings and low resists, he's on3 wings and what looks like 80+ mastery so he's one shotting everyone nearly. Says nothing.

    Note: just had a look on lionheart and he's struggling now as well barely 2400 in 3's


    Saw this guy a few days ago. Serious acc build on his gear. Every piece of gear he has at least 18+ acc. Sadly, he has everything maxed so this video doesn't say much about marskman. For a average player, marksman are not very good for PvPing. You have to put either a ton more time or cash than most other classes like in mastery, gear, and pets to be good in arena. Remember I said more cash and effort than other classes.



    I don't think he is a very serious player, but if he was, I'm sure he can easily get past 2450. He doesn't use arena gear, he uses light purple gear that you get from that npc for having a certain amount of achievements. At least that's where I think he got the armor.
  • asd29asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I don't think he is a very serious player, but if he was, I'm sure he can easily get past 2450. He doesn't use arena gear, he uses light purple gear that you get from that npc for having a certain amount of achievements. At least that's where I think he got the armor.

    You know he's given up on the mm and gone to a dark vamp right? Protip: his vamp is on the first or 2nd page of rankings on your server. He was also on full arena purples previously with crit def and dodge id's. So your comment about serious is is moot. He's given up on it so ofc he's not serious about it.

    fthawe wrote: »
    As for mm's I'd say they got the upper hand of skill usage (PVE) and less on the CC (PVP)
    Assassins pretty useless in PvE, no aoe, can't hold aggro without dying (basics) cannot slow the mobs running toward it. just the extra dd that's there to make the run faster.

    Also wat? You do realise the pvp spec MM don't have an very good aoe right? You also have more hp than us and eva than us lol. And we can magically hold aggro without dying? Can't slow mobs? WAT? Oh wait we can do it ONCE EVERY 5MINS. Sure is super useful in pve.

    I dunno about others, but when playing on my dark vampire, I purposely target a marksman due to the fact that they can lower my accuracy and evasion plus/or a few other nasty surprises. I've even run into a few that managed to kite completely out of my range and utterly hand my rear to me. It was entirely infuriating.

    Disarm a priest and see how they try to keep their team mates alive with stunted heals. I know in higher scored arena matches, every little bit of attack I can muster for sympathy counts. I cannot fathom keeping a teammate alive without a weapon, especially when that weapon gives me 112 heal effect, further stunting heals.

    Going back to doing arena on my vampire... I usually run with one friend and one friend alone and then pick up whoever in pug. Guess what that friend is? A freaking marksman and she is pretty damn beast. IJS, MMs aren't so useless, especially in a group that compliments what that player can do with their class.

    As for acc debuff - I wouldn't worry about it - it's 5 min cd. So its pretty useless and can't be relied upon. Once they use it they're screwed and as it stands eva is fail come end game for mm. It's not like dark curse lol.

    As for HE reduction if 122 HE makes that much difference to you then lol. What are you iding for as a divine? I know divines with 2K+ HE. 122 is like dropping a cup of water into the ocean for them. Add in sympathy+the % of mana increase for heals and you're worried about 122? Wow just wow

    Here's what non-mm are failing to really understand - you can shine in pvp but you need so much protection that in that case it better to take a different class for balance sake especially in an average squad scenario (60/40mastery resists, level1-2 wings with PROPER gems and decent refines). In terms of single target dps and reliable cc- you take a sin. In terms of AoE/cc and survivabilty you take a mage - there's no question any squad is better off with any other class other than a mm. Hell take a competent prot and it's not even close who will be more useful. If you think otherwise then lol. Pretty damn beast? Go with a competent dark vamp/sin/mage/prot/war/bard instead and see how pitiful a mm is

    What do you offer in squad composition?
    -Not great damage look at the base stats of 75+gear and only priests atk values are lower from recollection once you factor in cast times means you're probably one of the lowest dps output classes. You rely on soul bullets to even the equation but that's only 20 atks and if you're a tree other than soul good luck regenerating them
    -Not great survivability-look at the base values for HP and def(def sucks I know but dmg reduction is dmg reduction). The improved shield has helped but guess what? It relies on bullets and and offers no cc immunity
    -Unreliable CC - not only do you have 1 guaranteed CC it's a 45 sec cd and it has a minimum range and guess what it's an ensnare. So it's pretty hard to get off against a melee class who has a charge skill eg sins, vamps, wars. You know the classes you need to keep distance from Everything else requires 2 skills and is only at best 60% chance. There is no other guaranteed cc.
    -no reliable anti cc and cc just destroys us. we are just destroyed by disarm, disarm = silence for us. we can't cast jack **** other than smoke racial and shield.


    On the positive
    -you have an acc debuff that does nothing for you but if you have eva people in squad you can maybe save them (but 5 min cd)
    -you have one of the best single target debuffs as it does a lot of things (eva and resists debuff)
    -You have the 2nd best eva debuff (not even best, War roar fully talented + Bloodsoak is more detructive)


    TL:DR you bring nothing of value to the table as a mm in pvp scenarios. The 2nd worst class by repute prots have way more survivability and more reliable CC and they get massive value in terms of damage per hit. We have their cast times but neither the CC/survivability or even value per cast.
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • connidesconnides Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    asd29 wrote: »
    You know he's given up on the mm and gone to a dark vamp right? Protip: his vamp is on the first or 2nd page of rankings on your server. He was also on full arena purples previously with crit def and dodge id's. So your comment about serious is is moot. He's given up on it so ofc he's not serious about it.

    he is still bad. fyi. :) only reason why he is on 2nd page on 3v3 ranking is because he csed so much and have op toon and farmed points since low lvl. against teams that know how to play, he doesn't stand a chance.
  • Ghundrop - EyrdaGhundrop - Eyrda Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Disarm a priest and see how they try to keep their team mates alive with stunted heals. I know in higher scored arena matches, every little bit of attack I can muster for sympathy counts. I cannot fathom keeping a teammate alive without a weapon, especially when that weapon gives me 112 heal effect, further stunting heals.

    1) Disarm is not 100% chance until you get our level 80 skill which has a 2 second cast and a 30 second cooldown.

    2) How is having a stunted heal comparable to not being able to heal at all? Sins, Bards, Prots, Icemges (heck any mage once we include transform) can outright stop you from healing and you seriously complaining about a reduced heal? Seriously?

    Ya see this is a case of people talking what they don't know. I make all my comments based on having played the other classes as well and guess what, yes I run a 7x divine priest too (it was rebel before). Disarm? A joke flatout. If your only bonus heal effect is from your weapon and you depend on that 112 heal effect you fail. You realise the strength of the heals of a divine priest at all?

    Cmon man you are picking at straws. Go play a mm before you start bsing people.
  • YggdrasiI - Storm LegionYggdrasiI - Storm Legion Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    1) Disarm is not 100% chance until you get our level 80 skill which has a 2 second cast and a 30 second cooldown.

    2) How is having a stunted heal comparable to not being able to heal at all? Sins, Bards, Prots, Icemges (heck any mage once we include transform) can outright stop you from healing and you seriously complaining about a reduced heal? Seriously?

    Ya see this is a case of people talking what they don't know. I make all my comments based on having played the other classes as well and guess what, yes I run a 7x divine priest too (it was rebel before). Disarm? A joke flatout. If your only bonus heal effect is from your weapon and you depend on that 112 heal effect you fail. You realise the strength of the heals of a divine priest at all?

    Cmon man you are picking at straws. Go play a mm before you start bsing people.

    You do realize a stunted heal is just that much less that person can add to HE? Not every divine priest has that 2k+ HE, myself included. Losing the 112 HE drops my heals by 800- the same as turning off sympathy in my case. People who have done arena, instances and played other games with me where I continue to play a healing class know I'm far from fail.

    From your point of view, losing 112 when you have 2k+ HE is, indeed, absurdly hilarious.

    What is lost in linear thinking is piled up damage, lowered heals and all around CC. Suddenly, when damage is overcoming heals, it makes a bigger and bigger difference with each attack. However, again, from your view, if you have 2k+ HE, that probably doesn't happen anyway. That's cool, but I'm not talking about a situation with ridiculously high HE.

    People forget not every class is built to kill everything else out there. MMs are one of those classes. Since they have to work harder than others to compensate for their weaknesses, people would rather complain.

    Still, my original post was saying that I've found quite a few great MMs that I'd fight with anytime in the arena because they know what they can and can't do in certain situations. Not about HE and trying to grow an e-peen from a comment that wasn't even the main point. :D

    :rolleyes: Oh well, it's what I get for posting at 7am with no sleep. I'm a glutton for punishment :rolleyes:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    [YOU- drah- sil]
    If you want to shorten my name, don't call me 'Ygg.' Call me 'Mana.'

    Grandia: Unity ☆ Teamwork ☆ Friendship I]grandia-storm.com/[/I
    ~~~~~~~~~~{ Never get left behind again. }~~~~~~~~~~
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    You do realize a stunted heal is just that much less that person can add to HE? Not every divine priest has that 2k+ HE, myself included. Losing the 112 HE drops my heals by 800- the same as turning off sympathy in my case. People who have done arena, instances and played other games with me where I continue to play a healing class know I'm far from fail.

    From your point of view, losing 112 when you have 2k+ HE is, indeed, absurdly hilarious.

    What is lost in linear thinking is piled up damage, lowered heals and all around CC. Suddenly, when damage is overcoming heals, it makes a bigger and bigger difference with each attack. However, again, from your view, if you have 2k+ HE, that probably doesn't happen anyway. That's cool, but I'm not talking about a situation with ridiculously high HE.

    People forget not every class is built to kill everything else out there. MMs are one of those classes. Since they have to work harder than others to compensate for their weaknesses, people would rather complain.

    Still, my original post was saying that I've found quite a few great MMs that I'd fight with anytime in the arena because they know what they can and can't do in certain situations. Not about HE and trying to grow an e-peen from a comment that wasn't even the main point. :D

    :rolleyes: Oh well, it's what I get for posting at 7am with no sleep. I'm a glutton for punishment :rolleyes:

    I dont get how that compare to other classes skills though (the -HE part from mark i assume? or are we talking burst now? o.o) lets say the mm do play perfect (flawless) if you compare that to if a vamp sin mage prot did that he would be by far more useful than us.. at endgame at high level arena its like the most/best cc win. Im really happy if i can be free and move/use skills for 5sec. Im often against vamp/mage vamp/sin and so on and they can basically much put me in cc through all the round, especially the sin party.

    I try to do the best of the situation but we are still nowhere near as useful as any other class, that will become a clear fact for anyone actually playing marksman in arena
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Credits to BerenOneHand for the awesome sig

    New arena video (2015/05/01):
    youtube.com/watch?v=o3_ds-W-Hpo
  • asd29asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I dont get how that compare to other classes skills though (the -HE part from mark i assume? or are we talking burst now? o.o) no matter if you would say the perfect play perfect if a vamp sin mage prot did that he would be by far more useful than that little effect.. at endgame at high level arena its like the most/best win. Im really happy if i can be free and move/use skills for 5sec. Im often against vamp/mage vamp/sin and so on and they can basically much put me in cc through all the round, especially the sin party.

    I try to do the best of the situation but we are still nowhere near as useful as any other class, that will become a clear fact for anyone actually playing marksman in arena

    No, they're talking about being disarmed and losing 112HE from their weapon lol. For 6 secs. :D Sure is devastating...... Makes me feel bad for QQ'ing and not being able to do jack **** when i get disarmed

    What they also forget is having a viable and reliable cc is also a survivability tool. Ie for 6 secs an opponent is disabled unless they actively choose to use a racial skill or badge which then precludes them from using those again until cd ends. For the entire time a CC is in effect nothing is coming back at you. This buys you time to get a heal, reposition, defend teamates etc etc. But seeing as you need 2 skills just to get a chance I guess it's just hope you get lucky.
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • Ghundrop - EyrdaGhundrop - Eyrda Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    You do realize a stunted heal is just that much less that person can add to HE?

    And do you realise a stunted heal is far better than not being able to heal at all???????

    I mean what part of that is sooooo hard to understand? Hey check this when I get disarmed I cant use ANY of MY skills AT ALL.

    You want to compare a stunted heal to being completely disabled and guess what Prots, Warriors and Sins all have the ability to disarm, stun, ensare and silence (not prots) me. I have 0 self heals (and the talent we get for the heal is ABSOLUTE BS).

    What part of disarm can be as debilitating as having a sin silence you multiple times (6+ seconds on a stretch) or a prot stun you multiple times or a bard sleep you (yeah its not spammable) or ice mage freeze you (another 6 second silence)????

    Just stop, please. Just go make a mm, go play one and see for yourself how much bs the class is. Don't take my word for it go try it.

    To be a good mm requires much much much much more than ANY other class in this game requires.........and thats just to be "good"!
  • Axym - LionheartAxym - Lionheart Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    edited September 2012

    To be a good mm requires much much much much more than ANY other class in this game requires.........and thats just to be "good"!

    I've been avoiding this topic because it's all over the mm forum, but I think I had to comment once I saw people saying that mm's are decent in PvP.

    Now I suck at pvp, so I know I'm not the most reliable source, but trust me, Ghundrop is right about this, we require a lot more work.

    1) Most if not all of soul's cc's or even damage for that matter relies on SOUL BULLETS which do not generate on their own and if you die, you lose all of them, no matter how many were in your clip. Even in PVE this can be a bit crippling because my acc buff is based off my base acc and with -20 acc with no bullets, our acc buff is stunted. Soul is much better at generating them, but that doesn't mean they don't suffer from the same handicap. 0 soul bullets = 0 soul bullets and sometimes they just can't come fast enough.

    2) 2s+ cast times (min) and you want us to kite? Ummm lols? >.> I mean really? Not to mention that we also need to put up Hunter's Mark for at least 1/2 the cc's, that's another 2s cast.... We also don't have a mass slow/sleep or anything to basically help us with that, we have an acc debuff, which does not help unless you are eva burst, for 1 round of arena. Long cd's also make several combos rather.... difficult.

    3) Really, really low survivability which adds to #1. Low natural hp and def/eva It's just... it makes trying to stay alive to do cast our skills a challenge, half the time I'm just running around trying to not get hit, but by the time I get people off of me, my teammates are dead and I'm being ganked regardless. I don't know how many other mm's have this problem but I would assume most.... Yes our shield's great, and with soul runes + talents it gets a little better, but it's hardly a game changer, especially since i uses 3 soul bullets. 3/20 total (so little more than 1/7) or 3/4 of main SB generating skill that has a longer cd than our shield.

    4) "(Insert class here) also have (insert complaint)" yes, but they don't have all of them, in combination. If it's not one thing it's another with mm.


    I love mm, but I would really like to see us actually be viable in pvp more, I mean, it's not just low numbers that keeps us from the top.

    Oh, and Borsook, stop QQing over mage. Seriously, stfu. You can't in one thread say mage is better than mm and in the next QQ saying we're OP.
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  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    maybe they are all rigth, maybe we all suck as mm, let them make one to show us all the advantages mm has :D
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  • Borsook - EyrdaBorsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    3) Really, really low survivability which adds to #1. Low natural hp and def/eva
    Go play mage and talk about THAT kind of survival.

    Sorry but the reason MMs suck is because of no reliable fast CC, not survival. This is what I don't like about MMs. They QQ legitly for being weakest class, I fully hearted agree, but then add up pile of QQs where they aren't even WORST at.
    4) "(Insert class here) also have (insert complaint)" yes, but they don't have all of them, in combination. If it's not one thing it's another with mm.
    Indeed. But you don't have ALL of them. You just have the bad combination since CC means so much in this game.
    Oh, and Borsook, stop QQing over mage. Seriously, stfu. You can't in one thread say mage is better than mm and in the next QQ saying we're OP.
    No you stop QQing over MM for things they aren't even worst at. They don't have it worst in everything. I'm tired of all MMs saying they have everything worst now even with some obvious OP things.

    Yes MM is still worst in combination, but wrath generation and survival is bliss compared to mage too. You said MM has lowest stats on gear except priest? Uh, did you forget mages by any chance? :rolleyes: The most gimped class stat-wise (except for arena gear).

    Don't even mention mana shield. You'd know how useless it is in PvP especially arena because it drains your mana. And no one cares of 1v1.

    Again, I agree MMs are weakest class, but that doesn't make every single QQ fact valid. You might as well say MMs have weakest range.
  • Ghundam - EyrdaGhundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I think we have far more right to qq than a mage. Do not forget we both started playing the same time and back then I was a mage qqing about our survivability. Ice mages cannot complain about survivability at all. In the same way mms are forced to go soul to pvp mages can go ice however unlike mms a mage can go fire or lightning and still have reasonable survivability.

    For one thing your mana shield is easy to support because azures are THE cheapest gem in the game. No mage has an excuse for not having enough mana. You also get a few seconds of immunity if you are ice and even though its not a shield that freeze that ice mages get is better than a shiled because for 6 seconds you dont take any damage but can give it out.

    Lets look at my op shield. It last a whopping 10 seconds and if I mistime it at all it is through the edoes. Lets look at my op shield again, it requires 3 bullets for maximum efficiency, I do not think any of you realise how difficult bullet management can be depending on what stage of the battle you are in or that after death our bullets get wiped!

    Having a firemage is perhaps squishy yes I agree whole heartedly but to be honest I would not compare a fire mage to a soul mm. If anything I would compare the firemage to a burst mm and burst and precision shields unlike soul have longer cooldowns and we do not have spare ammo to resummon it. Its a once only run for your life as soon as its gone skill. Compare taht to a shield you can summon anytime so long as you have mana. Trust me for instance in arena there are mana wells and 12 v12 you can use mana pots, in arena/12v12 or any other form of pvp our ability to regen bullets is very limited.

    In terms of base stats are you kidding me. Our base stats and gear stats absolutely suck. PERIOD!

    Cmon Bors remember I play the other classes as well.
  • Borsook - EyrdaBorsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I never said MMs don't have horrible base stats. I said that mages have worse stats.

    Also like I said, it's not 1v1. Priests can't heal your mana. Well not fast anyway (Combined Healing can but tiny amount).

    The thing with soul MM is that its decent in instance still for dps, ice mage completely sucks.
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I never said MMs don't have horrible base stats. I said that mages have worse stats.

    Also like I said, it's not 1v1. Priests can't heal your mana. Well not fast anyway (Combined Healing can but tiny amount).

    The thing with soul MM is that its decent in instance still for dps, ice mage completely sucks.

    so swap to wind i believe they got higher dps than us yet they are aoe and us single target
    how come? because ur mana is giving you alot of extra damage which surely make up for the lower base stats

    and as wind for the pvp section you can aoe mana drain ALOT and transform are still possible, and some mages here still use some ice skills in hope to freeze us.. (they succeed but not at the level a cold mage does it)
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