12v12 Rants

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  • _Avenger_ - Eyrda
    _Avenger_ - Eyrda Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Priests should be heal slaves.

    i like this :rolleyes:
    sometimes I like to take my priest and go for a swim off somewhere and watch my party cry for heals just to make people like Borsook's head explode.

    This is why I don't tell any of you my character name :D

    lmao
  • faimon
    faimon Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    All these points could be solved bij introducing randomly questionmarks on the map.
    Those questionmarks can give randomly for a certain time a new skill like stealth, sleep, heals or whatever.
    I like my idea :)
  • _Avenger_ - Eyrda
    _Avenger_ - Eyrda Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    faimon wrote: »
    All these points could be solved bij introducing randomly questionmarks on the map.
    Those questionmarks can give randomly for a certain time a new skill like stealth, sleep, heals or whatever.
    I like my idea :)

    there are in some flags, one that increase the wrath, other that recovers, another for speed, thast the ones ive got so far, but its only for like 20 secs
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    20 secs and most of them, except the recover, are put in such bad spots you can't even get to use them before they expire. Unless you fight exactly there which is very very very rare.
  • Ykai - Eyrda
    Ykai - Eyrda Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I do not speak for every priest in Eyrda, nor do my examples reflect the norm. Nor am I a spokesman for the non-OP crowd.

    Let me just put this out there to shed light on what's happening from a non-OP priest's perspective during a 12v12 situation.

    I would assert that the only class bar none that can best utilize priests strongest heals and shield in a 12v12 situation is warriors. Not prots, not sins. Especially not any spellcasters.

    Take K_____k for example, I can outheal any damage he's taking when hit by 2 or 3 equally skilled and geared opponents, and then they drop dead if they don't run from his attacks. In all cases, by the 4th heal, the sin has spotted me and I'm dead. To maximize the heals, when there is a warrior in a party, he will get the first heals and the shield.


    I will not heal/shield the prot, who will stay alive but cannot kill, nor the sin, who I cannot see. Nor the spellcasters, who can either heal themselves, or die in 1 hit like me.

    This is getting long, just -

    It's the randomness that both makes the instance good and bad. Without going thru the math, I think it's a 100% win for the non-OP.

    Has anyone who ever logged into 2v12 not gotten his first win, active, and finishing rewards and battlefield points every day? If yes, then too bad.

    But I suspect everyone does get everything before the reset.

    12v12 is a way for us non-OP to leech from the OP. Your OP juices allow us to buy some purple rings/necks and some blue sets.
  • Kahlana - Eyrda
    Kahlana - Eyrda Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    sometimes I like to take my priest and go for a swim off somewhere and watch my party cry for heals just to make people like Borsook's head explode.

    This is why I don't tell any of you my character name :D

    For this, I love you! lol
  • Ginius - Illyfue
    Ginius - Illyfue Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Complaints gathered for 12v12, mostly mine but I included others' as well.

    1) Solo queue imbalance. No, I don't necessarily mean that you need premade teams or anything like that since I know why it is solo in the first place. However, a solo queue needs to not be 100% random, it needs to split in brackets and qualifiers. You could end up with a total **** composition, which leads to point 2.

    That's the whole point of the 12v12, this randomness.

    Take an OP team of 3 and it is more than enough to break the balance, the sole reason why lots of ppl are not doing arena is because of this, seeing the same OP ppl sticking together.

    If you want to hang out with some ppl, there are still the arena 6v6 and 3v3, but I have tons of guildies who can finally have some pvp fun on a regular basis without having to meet the very same OP team each time they enter.

    I'm strongly against any kind of premade, even 2 people, in this 12v12, it would just ruin all the fun for 90% of the ppl going there.


    Of course I'm pissed too sometimes, and the composition needs to be worked on, but in any cases, no kind of premade should ever be implemented here.

    Every other PvP in this game allow it, be it arena, rift, open pvp, so this one needs to be available in solo queue, and should never be changed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Signature by Baby.
    Level 90 since august 2014

    - Elemental Warrior 90
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    - Water Bard 83
    - Precision MM 80
    - Demon? I hope soon xD
  • Ghundrop - Eyrda
    Ghundrop - Eyrda Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I have no problem with the randomness but I think this game on a whole as was/is the case with PWI is far too biased in favor of assassins.
  • nrliev
    nrliev Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Would be nice if you were able to queue with 1 friend with you, ala 2 person parties.

    I don't see anything wrong with that, it'll still be mostly random but at least you'll 100% know that you got 1 friend on your side with you fighting others.
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  • JolieLee - Eyrda
    JolieLee - Eyrda Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Wtb group of bards to keep entire enemy team perma slept for entire match.
    (Imagine the wc raging....)

    77-water bard at your service :D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ginius - Illyfue
    Ginius - Illyfue Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    nrliev wrote: »
    Would be nice if you were able to queue with 1 friend with you, ala 2 person parties.

    I don't see anything wrong with that, it'll still be mostly random but at least you'll 100% know that you got 1 friend on your side with you fighting others.

    Take an OP priest with an OP DD, and this is enought to take out 50% of the opponent team, I have in my mind some lvl 3wingers with lvl 80+ mastery for DPS, lvl 70+ all resistance, 35-40%crit dodge for the priest, this is more than enough to take out half of the opponent team.

    Hell I'm not even close to be as strong as the guys I m talking about, and if I have any half decent priest (not even OP), I'm often ending up with 30+ kills, and lots of flags taken.

    In this instance, with ppl not always teaming up, not always willing to fight, not always with even half a brain, even a team of 2 can do more than the difference, and it already happens but randomly, I don't want to see that happening at every single fight :o
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    Signature by Baby.
    Level 90 since august 2014

    - Elemental Warrior 90
    - Ice Mage 90
    - Blood Raider 87
    - Divine Priest 85
    - Water Bard 83
    - Precision MM 80
    - Demon? I hope soon xD
  • WerePetar - Illyfue
    WerePetar - Illyfue Posts: 221 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ghundrop mms arnt so weak one of worst posible apoments on my server to get in 12vs12 is mm ,but he is soul not like most of u guys precision he/she have 40+kills easy have way more kills then OP sins on my server and even dose lot more damge then they do
  • plusonecharisma
    plusonecharisma Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ghundrop mms arnt so weak one of worst posible apoments on my server to get in 12vs12 is mm ,but he is soul not like most of u guys precision he/she have 40+kills easy have way more kills then OP sins on my server and even dose lot more damge then they do

    MMs dont hit anywhere near as hard as sins. Soul is only good for making orbs and red hand kills are almost guaranteed once you have it, but even a Soul MM against someone with medium resistances is very underpowered attack wise. Their defense is horrible and the only build with any survivability is full evasion builds with high resistances.

    Now if your gonna play an evasion build, you might as well go Sin or Vamp and easily hit 450 evasion and have some OP atk skills to pair it with. We have Dark Vamps with over 500 evasion now on Storm. I challenge you to find me one MM who breaks 400 Evasion without speed of fire.

    As a side note, avg accuracy at lv 79-80 is around 600. With these accuracies it is only worthwhile to be evasion as a vamp or sin, period.

    THIS GAME STILL LACKS CLASS BALANCE
  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited September 2012

    As a side note, avg accuracy at lv 79-80 is around 600. With these accuracies it is only worthwhile to be evasion as a vamp or sin, period.

    THIS GAME STILL LACKS CLASS BALANCE

    You're forgetting bards but yeah, agreed. MMs simply don't have the skillset to pull off an evasion build endgame. And in case anyone is going to argue burst's fast action and weakening cloud, just lol.

    MMs would need something along the lines of dark curse (mud shot? xD) that would allow us to lower the opponent's accuracy in order for us to pull off an evasion build successfully in the long run. Pulse shot is supposed to increase our accuracy by 100 but doesn't. Make that lower opponent's accuracy by 100 and we might be on to something.

    Not to mention evasion builds are further gimping themselves since our bubble is proportional to our HP, the first stat you lose out on if going eva.
  • Ghundrop - Eyrda
    Ghundrop - Eyrda Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ghundrop mms arnt so weak one of worst posible apoments on my server to get in 12vs12 is mm ,but he is soul not like most of u guys precision he/she have 40+kills easy have way more kills then OP sins on my server and even dose lot more damge then they do

    Come to Eryda lemme see how long they last.

    Anyway its not about power. I have detailed endlessly how mms are pvp gimped. Sure soul build can hold its own I know because I am soul but the amount of effort it takes to be as good as I am or better is disproportionate to a lot of other class/builds out there!

    The point is that many of our skills need to be reworked. There is so much to being an mm it isnt funny. I also have a priest, mage, warrior, was playing in arena with a prot etc etc. By comparison every single one of the classes is much easier and much more rewarding than an mm.

    Pre level 60 when we finally get our shield a mm is nothing but bait in PvP. by contrast every class has major skills by about lvl 55 e.g. freeze, silence, damage reflect, damage immunity, shield bubbles etc etc. What we get? Lameness! pure lameness. If you wanna talk PvE count me out but if we are talking PvP come again! Don't get me started!

    Any mm you see doing well in PvP especially arena is either being carried or has a heavy investment in gear etc. Even Ghundam had help in the end to score his blue arena gear. You kidding me?

    Thats a part that makes me upset too. All these people talking bs but havent played the class the way I and a few others have but think its easy then when they get facerolled walk away talking more bs but still end up running back to their mage/vamp/sin/prot/bard!!!!!

    Tell me about my shoes AFTER you walk in them and don't point out the 1 mm on a server probably not half as competitive as Eryda as your glowing example of how good a mm can be.

    Take a walk over to the mm forums and see the number of post or when the last post was made. Do a count in game and see how many there are past level 70. I actually know almost all the mms over lvl 60 on Eryda. Its that ........... lame. You think why? Because the dam classs is GIMPED!!!!!!!

    But then some person has the gall to tell me but at least its still a fun class to play:

    ..........................fun!

    My fun is being able to fight the ............ back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Do I sound angry well yes I am. Cause after 1.5 years NO ONE in management gives a .............. and given the money I invested (I know no one made me spend it) I honestly feel 1) cheated and 2) like I should be compensated!

    ..................................
  • Demyx - Storm Legion
    Demyx - Storm Legion Posts: 387 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Really? Somehow this became a MM QQ thread? We have enough of those already don't we?

    Here's a big fact everyone who complains about MM fail to understand...

    IT'S A GAME

    If you don't enjoy it...why did you put a bunch of money into the character? If you didn't enjoy it...why did you even bother to LEVEL the character? If you DO enjoy it, than simply enjoy it...but don't complain because you don't hit as hard as a Sin or Warrior, have the range of a Marksman and the defense of a Stoneman. You have weaknesses! Every class has them.

    Just because your weaknesses are more visible doesn't mean they need to be corrected. The only thing I've heard on this forum for about a year now are a bunch of MM complaining that their class is underdeveloped or underpowered and that every other class can gank them easily. Perhaps instead of pointing out all the negatives, you could instead work on developing and building up based on your strengths and weaknesses.

    Do you see me as a Bard putting Azures and Eagle-Eyes in my gear? NO! I'm a Bard...we're squishy and while we can do some serious damage given enough time, we don't take direct hits well. What do we focus on when we can't take direct hits well? BLOODSTONES, MISTSHROUDS, TWILIGHTS AND CRYSTALINES. Basically levy everything to cover up your faults to make your character more well-rounded. Is this going to eliminate the weaknesses your character has? No. It will however help shoulder the MASSIVE AND EVER EXPANDING GAP that people seem to think exists in classes.

    Or...if you're like some of us... (small hand raised) you could go for broke and try to produce as much damage as possible by throwing defense to the wind and stacking up Ragefires, Eagle-Eyes (to hit the evas), Goldsparks and Shattershards. It's a gamble that doesn't always pay off, but if it's more your play style, don't go half ****. Stack as much as physically possible.

    I'm not going to sit here and say 1v1 a MM will have a chance against a Sin. I WILL say however, especially in a situation like 12v12 and Rift where you can use the terrain to your advantage...that a MM has WAY more of an upper hand than people think. Do you realize there are places in 12v12 that you can get to where a MM or Mage can attack...but Sins, Warriors and Vampires can't? If you use the terrain to your advantage, it makes it so they can't use Deadly Chaser or any other "rush" skill...and in the case of the melee classes they only have one of two options. Find the route up to where you are or run away. I could take the time to point out EACH spot...but that would take all the fun out of having you find them for yourself.
    Part of the fun of playing the game is wading through 98% of the idiots and trolls to find the 2% who you enjoy playing with.
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Here's a big fact everyone who complains about MM fail to understand...

    IT'S A GAME
    Get out of my thread. This is serious business.
    If you use the terrain to your advantage, it makes it so they can't use Deadly Chaser or any other "rush" skill...and in the case of the melee classes they only have one of two options. Find the route up to where you are or run away.
    Or stealth then 1-shot you.

    Or 1-shot you from stealth in your "spot" before you even see him.

    Can't hit what you can't see.



    @MMs and anyone else: Keep posting at least it's a good read. No one cares what casual people think they should just play the game and be quiet on forum, cause they don't care anyway so what's the point. Let us argue about balance and you go play your damn "game" if that makes you happy or is fun to you.
  • corica
    corica Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I for one enjoy 12v12 even though I would probably be classed as one of those 'little fish' I have been in good teams and bad teams, but I still had fun. And yeah sometimes the other side has mostly maxed out players where as you may only have 1, but you still have a chance of winning if you move in a group and go the opp direction :P Its about capturing and keeping the flags just as much as it is about pvp.
    Sin's can be annoying, espicially if they are the ones defending the flag, that stealth can be SUPER annoying, but if you work as a team and you and your party travel in a group, they are usually on their own and as super strong as they may be a well ballanced team of 'little fish' can still take them down. Done it so I know :P
    In most of my matches, most of the ppl have not camped outside the base, they dont find it any fun and if they are camped out there, well that leaves the flags fair game and they will lose from camping it.
    Defending the flags is a good way to win, but it depends on the strengths of the group, you have to know the people in it and go from their. In the 12v12 I have been going to on my server, everyone has pretty much worked out how everyone else works when they are on the team, and against them. Hence why we are still probably all having fun, yeah sometimes we get stomped into the ground, but we still had fun. Plus you still get points even if you lose, and there is a 3k limit a day on what you can get, and I go more then three times a day if I can (I only win once or twice)
    On the healing, I am a blood vamp and I tend to heal anyone who looks like they need it even if they are not in my party. But I wont be a healing slave, I will still cap and attack I only heal when needed. Fortunatly enough, all the priests in my level group and server are good healers that do their best I have no complaints about them at all tbh.
    As for MM, as for any char they are weak to some, and strong to others, I have been killed by MM several times, a good burst MM has a good chance of killing several ppl :P
  • Ghundrop - Eyrda
    Ghundrop - Eyrda Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I don't know who you guys fight against or what level you are fighting at but when I pvp it is not against "little fish". My comments are not based on lowbie or noob pvp. They are based on PvP versus very good players. Some people may get the impression my character is weak but it is not (relatively).

    It is just that as a matter of fact an mm in general has some issues that a company who actually cared about game balance would have fixed by now.

    Anyway since we are talking 12v12 here I'll say this much. I like the initiative and implementation. It is for the most part "fair". For my one part sins need to relooked. They have too great an advantage in 12v12 where flags are concerned.

    As for Demyx, I am me. I have the right to feel how I feel. You can't tell me how to feel, or how to express myself. I feel hard done. Yes I spent my money but when I spent it (I did not start playing yesterday and power level to 78) I had no idea that come end game it would have felt like such a waste. Don't forget prior to Nightfall mms spent an entire year with NO defense AT ALL. My anger is something built up over time, not yesterday! I don't mean to be annoying but my qq is in my opinion justified and I will continue to fight for mms regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about me!
  • Demyx - Storm Legion
    Demyx - Storm Legion Posts: 387 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    As for Demyx, I am me. I have the right to feel how I feel. You can't tell me how to feel, or how to express myself. I feel hard done. Yes I spent my money but when I spent it (I did not start playing yesterday and power level to 78) I had no idea that come end game it would have felt like such a waste. Don't forget prior to Nightfall mms spent an entire year with NO defense AT ALL. My anger is something built up over time, not yesterday! I don't mean to be annoying but my qq is in my opinion justified and I will continue to fight for mms regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about me!

    I'm not saying you don't have the RIGHT to feel slighted. I'm saying since it's been this way from the start...unless you dumped a few thousand dollars right when Open Beta started...why did you continue to invest in a character that from the first month of the games release...people insisted were underpowered? Why invest money in an uncertainty? You were never told...even hinted to...that the developers would change the MM class. The shield upgrade after Nightfall from what I've heard was an improvement...but you weren't even guaranteed that.

    If you have regret and feel you should be compensated, perhaps anyone who feels regret after putting money into a virtual game should be compensated as well. I'm not saying it's wrong for you TO feel regret...I'm saying it's wrong to feel entitled to equal payment back for that regret. Even now...even after ALL these issues with Marksmen are known...there are still Marksman characters who's players are putting money into the game.

    And for the people who insist Sins will sneak up on them in stealth and 1-shot them in 12v12...you've obviously not done your homework on what camping truly means. It's not enough to get a good spot, you also have to use the terrain to hide yourself....aka in Trees or behind obnoxious fence posts that serve no purpose. The only way the Sin will find you is if they're mashing their tab button while running around. Otherwise you're nothing but a tiny white dot on a mini-map that shows such little detail that...if you don't move, you won't be seen.
    Part of the fun of playing the game is wading through 98% of the idiots and trolls to find the 2% who you enjoy playing with.
  • Ghundrop - Eyrda
    Ghundrop - Eyrda Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ?????????? Once again ????????? what 12v12 are you guys reaallllly playing. It can't be the same one I am. Seriously ..............

    Ya know what, clearly top end pvp is not something everyone is familiar with so I give up. Never mind!
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I was gonna say mini-map... but if you're too blind to see them there, who's fault is that?

    You realize people camp flags behind walls right? So you have to watch for the dots regardless.

    That's YOUR fault, not the MM being strong, but YOU being weak.
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ...I can't believe they nerfed burst MMs aoe and then buffed the shield months later.... Still pathetically weak class.
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'm not saying you don't have the RIGHT to feel slighted. I'm saying since it's been this way from the start...unless you dumped a few thousand dollars right when Open Beta started...why did you continue to invest in a character that from the first month of the games release...people insisted were underpowered? Why invest money in an uncertainty? You were never told...even hinted to...that the developers would change the MM class. The shield upgrade after Nightfall from what I've heard was an improvement...but you weren't even guaranteed that.

    Things have changed since open beta. Very much so. Our DoT used to do equal damage with every tick regardless of the number of stacks. Now every subsequent tick does 25% less than the previous. Furthermore the chance to inflict a burn effect has been reduced to 50% if the target is further than 8(?) meters away. Used to be a 100% chance to burn regardless of the distance.

    With my pitiful lvl40 trained mastery I do ~1k burn damage with my first burn. 250 on my fourth stack. So when I hit quick reloading for some spammage, I'm doing 1000-2000 damage per second (depending how many burns proc) rather than 5k/sec. If my mastery were higher, the damage differential would only be bigger.

    Considering our squishyness and lack of any real survival skills I don't think that should be considered overpowered. 25k damage over 5 seconds is a lot, but still pales in comparison to 40k PoL hits or 50k sin crits. Doing 5 or 10k damage over 5 seconds - is laughable. Yet it was still enough to nerf us big time without a word around the time FP expansion came around since the Chinese were QQing mms were leveling everyone at wester and reeves :D

    As for the shield upgrade, we've known about that for months before Nightfall went official - so it was guaranteed.

    Now I spent nowhere near the amount you cite, but I did spend a couple hundred bucks overall in the beginning to support the game. A mount, some fash, little bit of mastery. Enough to be one of the first winged mms around. Year and a half later - my chroma is the same as it was a year ago. As is my mastery. Goes to say what I think of the game now and how much I support it now compared to then.

    For what it's worth, this isn't intended as a QQ post by any means. I quit the game for all intensive purposes and could care less about what they do or don't do with the marksmen class and balance issues in general (I'm looking at you sins :D).
    Just setting the record straight since most of you derps on your high horses flailing your epeens around haven't even done an open pk war at w/r.
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Dont forget the splash angle from 180 degrees to 120ish
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Dont forget the splash angle from 180 degrees to 120ish

    Didn't the tooltip always read 120? So that would technically be a bug fix, not a nerf :D Then again, hunters mark is supposed to prevent sins from stealthing and pulse shot is supposed to add 100 accuracy so yeah xD

    But to stay on topic: speaking of the minimap; there's a super annoying gfx issue where you see party members on screen some distance away from you when in reality they're miles away. I don't know how many times I would be running towards what on my screen looked like friendlies only to run into a horde of the opposing party and get slaughtered by the time I realized xD Same thing happens in rift, figured I'd post that. Having to press M every 10 secs gets annoying >_>
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Didn't the tooltip always read 120? So that would technically be a bug fix, not a nerf :D Then again, hunters mark is supposed to prevent sins from stealthing and pulse shot is supposed to add 100 accuracy so yeah xD

    But to stay on topic: speaking of the minimap; there's a super annoying gfx issue where you see party members on screen some distance away from you when in reality they're miles away. I don't know how many times I would be running towards what on my screen looked like friendlies only to run into a horde of the opposing party and get slaughtered by the time I realized xD Same thing happens in rift, figured I'd post that. Having to press M every 10 secs gets annoying >_>

    I'm fairly certain that it listed a 180 degree arc.... At least during beta
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • taggurung
    taggurung Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    In 12v12 I can't see people on my map, only pets
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Value the ones near.