MM pvp
klippin
Posts: 4 Arc User
So ive been looking around and yeah ive read most of the posts i can find btu noone gives any straight forward explanations of how MM builds work they all seem really complicated or scattered, so i was looking for a straight up PVP build for an MM that will still work for pve like do full evasion builds become at all useful in pve?
Post edited by klippin on
Comments
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Evasion builds are more effective in PVE and and all 3 trees can be used effectively in PVP and PVE depending on what is more important to you. Every other class is better in PVP than the MM by a fair margin but if your wanting max single target damage then its Soul if you tip your scale more towards PVP and Precision if your scale tips toward PVE. For AOE its all burst baby and you can slant it more toward PVP or PVE depending on your preferences.
I play a burst MM and have EVA high enough for PvE but no where near high enough for PVP. -
precision is cool in pve, in pvp need to remain behind someone because for some reason it becomes more squishi, soul is cool in pvp but in pve it kind of sucks, burst does damage and its aoe, usefull for both,talents are more inclined to pve[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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TBH, I'll warn you now this is the weakest pvp class especially end-game. It's fun in a way but extremely frustrating at times. Unless you are prepared to deal with a lot of frustration I'd roll a mage or a vamp. They're more viable for pvp and in terms of pvp you can make more gold form the loot/scrolls that drop for those classes. (mm scrolls and gear are going for ridiculously cheap in my server, purple gear is at least 1/2 to 1/3rd of the price of other classes)
Evasion end game at around 2.2-2.3k+ score in arena is absolutely unviable without some hefty cash shopping, a lot of luck with re-ids and a near perfect squad. You're looking at base 360 eva minimum to get it to work. You'll also need defelction II or III pet skill+gemlight and if possible either have a dark vamp or a bard with fantasy skill for the accuracy debuff or eva buff or a combination of both to make it very successful. On my server evasion is dead for most classes except for dark vamps, as 600+acc at 75+ arena is quite common. There are also a LOT of eva debuffs as well as most other classes have +acc talents on certain skills.
IMO TBH 75+ arena to be somewhat successful you need to go full defensive. I don't mean warded stout but rather at a bare minimum the arena blue gear with crit dodge/def gems or gear as well as a baseline 30-35k hp set along with stacking resists (at least lvl20 all resists) and as much fire/earth mastery as you can pump up. Getting the score for the arena set isn't too difficult but most people plateau out at 2.2-2.3k it's advancing any further that's the problem. So yeah you can still have fun but if you're ultra competitive running into that wall is pretty frustrating.Isock - Eyrda wrote: »precision is cool in pve, in pvp need to remain behind someone because for some reason it becomes more squishi, soul is cool in pvp but in pve it kind of sucks, burst does damage and its aoe, usefull for both,talents are more inclined to pve
Not true at all for soul sucking for pve. The main reason it was underrated was because it offerred 0 party buffs other than acc, and acc is useless for PVE. With rune talents such as contact and motivate and there is absolutely no reason not to invest invest in Contact and motivate runes the biggest weakness of soul was remedied. You are the hardest hitting STDPS tree by a long way factoring crits and crit damage as well as having spike damage from having soul bullets. All your fire attacks are at least 105% of base up to 145% of base atk. You now offer buffs useful in PVE. While your hunters mark doesn't provide the debuff of 8% more damage and the resists debuff or encourage, it still offers a decent resistance debuff. So while it's not as good as prec in a pve sense by no way does it suck.
Prec sucks for pvp because you don't have as much cc, no multihit skills and still plagued by long cast times. you have no survivability talents. You don't have an eva boost & your soul res is weak in comparison without the ability to reset its cd. A Burst eva stacking MM with a fully talented fast action +using cloud will be unhittable for 15 or so secs and will require a hefty debuff And soul with a fully talented cloud and soul res will take a lot more damage and cough up less orbs. Problem is cloud is a 5 min cd limiting its usability. Where as precision get cloud and not much elseAs a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration -
even whit the buffs soul still sucks on pve, for me soul its like a sin, only good thing are crit rateNot true at all for soul sucking for pve. The main reason it was underrated was because it offerred 0 party buffs other than acc, and acc is useless for PVE. With rune talents such as contact and motivate and there is absolutely no reason not to invest invest in Contact and motivate runes the biggest weakness of soul was remedied. You are the hardest hitting STDPS tree by a long way factoring crits and crit damage as well as having spike damage from having soul bullets. All your fire attacks are at least 105% of base up to 145% of base atk. You now offer buffs useful in PVE. While your hunters mark doesn't provide the debuff of 8% more damage and the resists debuff or encourage, it still offers a decent resistance debuff. So while it's not as good as prec in a pve sense by no way does it suck.
yea, but prec has a good skill (encourage) that makes your acc attack, so only need to stack up a bit on that, and while its a long cast time, is funny to sleep people whit extreme snipingPrec sucks for pvp because you don't have as much cc, no multihit skills and still plagued by long cast times. you have no survivability talents. You don't have an eva boost & your soul res is weak in comparison without the ability to reset its cd
, but yea, you need to remain behind someone, and almost all attack are 2 sec cast time but mfb becomes 5 sec, and whit soul power you can reduce cast times a bit [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] -
Isock - Eyrda wrote: »even whit the buffs soul still sucks on pve, for me soul its like a sin, only good thing are crit rate
yea, but prec has a good skill (encourage) that makes your acc attack, so only need to stack up a bit on that, and while its a long cast time, is funny to sleep people whit extreme sniping, but yea, you need to remain behind someone, and almost all attack are 2 sec cast time but mfb becomes 5 sec, and whit soul power you can reduce cast times a bit
The thing is this - you entirely discount the attack values for soul. You also forget about Burst of Rage which allows for faster orb generation. You also forget about crackshot time and ability to have 20% more damage for much longer. I will out dps a prec MM any day of the week on similar gear/masteries.
If you can manage to get Extreme sniping off in arena the good luck to you that's a pretty stupid squad you just fought. Also what's the cd of Extreme sniping 30 secs or so? While you can manage to sleep that person - it's easily countered by badges or racial skills. Also sleep is a double edged CC you can't attack them or else they wake up lol. Which makes it pretty useless in large scale pvp with so much aoearound. And the cast time reduction with runes is nice but it's not as great as you make it out to be because the reducion is not as huge as you are implying.
Remember this is for pure pvp - Encourage is a nice buff problem is it's only usefull if you stay alive. The ability to farm orbs, crit stun, crit, (eg kill quick and out damage heals) CC and survive is what make you successful. Encourage is a nice buff but the buff is only good is you can stay alive. Prec can't generate orbs anywhere near as fast at soul. Prec doesn't crit as often and crit as hard anywhere near soul. Prec has no survivability talents. High attack is nice but when you're only getting off 2-3 skills and not getting red hand before dying then it's useless. Unless you come up against some undergeared squad with less than 30k hp you're not one shotting anyone in 75+ arena with opening wrathAs a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration -
So ive been looking around and yeah ive read most of the posts i can find btu noone gives any straight forward explanations of how MM builds work they all seem really complicated or scattered, so i was looking for a straight up PVP build for an MM that will still work for pve like do full evasion builds become at all useful in pve?
So you know, this is impossible to answer without you giving any information on the lev you want to pvp at, the tier you want to pvp at, and how much 'gold' you have to spend.
Pre-lv 60/70 eva builds do work for mm since the eva bonuses from skills outweigh acc gains (% wise) from gems/equips (most pre-70 won't have lv 4 acc gems...) If you're asking for a guide, I doubt you have the funds to attempt an eva build post 70 at all if you're going to even just play around lower mid-tier pvp.
In terms of being pve useful - if you're going to build a mid-tier pvp mm, it won't matter which class you are, you're gear will easily be enough for pve. It depends more on what role you want to play - atk buff (prec), single targ dps (soul), or aoe (burst).
In terms of pvp, I would recommend going burst only if you plan to pvp with an aoe cc (mage, vamp, prot...). Even with our shield buff mms are squishy as hell, so it's easy to gang them first. Soul would give you a little more single targ cc + shielding, while prec would give you that ranged cc. I would say prec is the harder build, since you need to choose your target carefully/know when to cc (lots of team co-ordination as well), soul is more basic - try to stay alive, dps when u can.Remember this is for pure pvp - Encourage is a nice buff problem is it's only usefull if you stay alive. The ability to farm orbs, crit stun, crit, (eg kill quick and out damage heals) CC and survive is what make you successful. Encourage is a nice buff but the buff is only good is you can stay alive. Prec can't generate orbs anywhere near as fast at soul. Prec doesn't crit as often and crit as hard anywhere near soul. Prec has no survivability talents. High attack is nice but when you're only getting off 2-3 skills and not getting red hand before dying then it's useless. Unless you come up against some undergeared squad with less than 30k hp you're not one shotting anyone in 75+ arena with opening wrath
Err - I must disagree completely with that comment, and most of what you have stated about prec. Prec don't crit as often as soul!? I haven't played prec in a little while, but don't they have a little skill that adds a huge amount of crit chance?... And are you joking when you talk about not 'critting' hard? As prec I had 3 different skills that could crit into the 30ks, while a BoR might (if I was lucky) hit 30k. Yes, on average the BoR has a much more 'averaged' high dgm, but that's 1 skill compared with 2 short cd and 1 long cd.
In terms of dps, soul does not out dps prec 100% of the time - it depends purely on your equips. when I was back lv 1 winged, 9/12 gear, my prec dgm was MORE than soul. Reason being I built it heavy into crit dgm. Soul ONLY out dps prec if you have super high atk (full lv 3 atk gems, 12/12 weap, or lv 40+ mastery..) and low crit dgm. Until that point, the encourage buff + crit chance outweighs BoR. Especially with the soul bullet nerf.
Note - my information is not including runes in anyway, it's just on base skills. But I'm assuming that's what your information was based on as well.
Getting back to builds... As a prec mm I'd recommend going crit dgm/health or crit dgm/crit def, because you get the basic + crit chance from skills, and heavy dgm from bonus. On ids, dgm wise go for mastery/acc/atk, while if you want more def --> health/crit def (pvp equips). Pvp equips work pretty well for a prec since you can the crit dgm/health gears, and id for hp/crit def. Your dps WON'T be very consistent, but using your skills in the proper order will help you focus 'when' you do your burst dgm.
As a burst mm, going pvp equips can also work, but I'd try to focus more on mastery ids., along with acc/health or acc/crit def basic attributes. Reason being your hunter's mark does a great job on - eva, but as a burst it's very hard to apply it to multiple targets. No point being aoe if you can't hit all of them. Also atk is ok, but it's really not multiplied the same way way as with soul (because of burn). The exception I would say to this is if you can get a large amount of rune energy for burst - then your 'crit' dgm is going to matter a lot more.
And for soul - atk/crit chance items would be the prime focus, with hp/crit def on the other end. pvp equips give you more survivability - but they are very low on atk. I would lean towards the 77 mm set (you won't have to id any acc, high base hp stats, fairly cheap compared with good 77 items). The thing is you will be very squishy when you're shield's not up, so timing will be very important (hiding behind walls to prevent wars stuns, using badge at right time to get away from vamps/sins...). You are also very vulnerable to crits, so a crit def/atk gem focus would be good.
In terms of pet - get Invigorate 3. It's expensive. I know, but it's the BEST skill an mm can have in terms of defence bonus, with even just a decent pet you'll jump up 4/5k health --> which is directly transferable to priests healing you, and your shield. And it's useable while in the waiting chamber (unlike say protect master which needs timing)
Another note - these are all 'starter' gear builds, somewhat easy to slowly build up too. They won't take you anywhere near high-tier pvp, but with a decent team you could hang around mid-tier. -
So you know, this is impossible to answer without you giving any information on the lev you want to pvp at, the tier you want to pvp at, and how much 'gold' you have to spend.
Pre-lv 60/70 eva builds do work for mm since the eva bonuses from skills outweigh acc gains (% wise) from gems/equips (most pre-70 won't have lv 4 acc gems...) If you're asking for a guide, I doubt you have the funds to attempt an eva build post 70 at all if you're going to even just play around lower mid-tier pvp.
In terms of being pve useful - if you're going to build a mid-tier pvp mm, it won't matter which class you are, you're gear will easily be enough for pve. It depends more on what role you want to play - atk buff (prec), single targ dps (soul), or aoe (burst).
In terms of pvp, I would recommend going burst only if you plan to pvp with an aoe cc (mage, vamp, prot...). Even with our shield buff mms are squishy as hell, so it's easy to gang them first. Soul would give you a little more single targ cc + shielding, while prec would give you that ranged cc. I would say prec is the harder build, since you need to choose your target carefully/know when to cc (lots of team co-ordination as well), soul is more basic - try to stay alive, dps when u can.
Err - I must disagree completely with that comment, and most of what you have stated about prec. Prec don't crit as often as soul!? I haven't played prec in a little while, but don't they have a little skill that adds a huge amount of crit chance?... And are you joking when you talk about not 'critting' hard? As prec I had 3 different skills that could crit into the 30ks, while a BoR might (if I was lucky) hit 30k. Yes, on average the BoR has a much more 'averaged' high dgm, but that's 1 skill compared with 2 short cd and 1 long cd.
In terms of dps, soul does not out dps prec 100% of the time - it depends purely on your equips. when I was back lv 1 winged, 9/12 gear, my prec dgm was MORE than soul. Reason being I built it heavy into crit dgm. Soul ONLY out dps prec if you have super high atk (full lv 3 atk gems, 12/12 weap, or lv 40+ mastery..) and low crit dgm. Until that point, the encourage buff + crit chance outweighs BoR. Especially with the soul bullet nerf.
Note - my information is not including runes in anyway, it's just on base skills. But I'm assuming that's what your information was based on as well.
Getting back to builds... As a prec mm I'd recommend going crit dgm/health or crit dgm/crit def, because you get the basic + crit chance from skills, and heavy dgm from bonus. On ids, dgm wise go for mastery/acc/atk, while if you want more def --> health/crit def (pvp equips). Pvp equips work pretty well for a prec since you can the crit dgm/health gears, and id for hp/crit def. Your dps WON'T be very consistent, but using your skills in the proper order will help you focus 'when' you do your burst dgm.
As a burst mm, going pvp equips can also work, but I'd try to focus more on mastery ids., along with acc/health or acc/crit def basic attributes. Reason being your hunter's mark does a great job on - eva, but as a burst it's very hard to apply it to multiple targets. No point being aoe if you can't hit all of them. Also atk is ok, but it's really not multiplied the same way way as with soul (because of burn). The exception I would say to this is if you can get a large amount of rune energy for burst - then your 'crit' dgm is going to matter a lot more.
And for soul - atk/crit chance items would be the prime focus, with hp/crit def on the other end. pvp equips give you more survivability - but they are very low on atk. I would lean towards the 77 mm set (you won't have to id any acc, high base hp stats, fairly cheap compared with good 77 items). The thing is you will be very squishy when you're shield's not up, so timing will be very important (hiding behind walls to prevent wars stuns, using badge at right time to get away from vamps/sins...). You are also very vulnerable to crits, so a crit def/atk gem focus would be good.
In terms of pet - get Invigorate 3. It's expensive. I know, but it's the BEST skill an mm can have in terms of defence bonus, with even just a decent pet you'll jump up 4/5k health --> which is directly transferable to priests healing you, and your shield. And it's useable while in the waiting chamber (unlike say protect master which needs timing)
Another note - these are all 'starter' gear builds, somewhat easy to slowly build up too. They won't take you anywhere near high-tier pvp, but with a decent team you could hang around mid-tier.
I am crit built and i outdps prec as soul (430% crit damage / ~45 crit chance)
So the part that you only outdps as atk built is false[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Credits to BerenOneHand for the awesome sig
New arena video (2015/05/01):
youtube.com/watch?v=o3_ds-W-Hpo -
Prec MMs have crit bonuses on FAW and Aimed Shot. The buff which gives crit all around is from the talent called Contact (2.5% 4/3). Which btw is attainable on any tree with runes.
Soul has an additional 3% crit going on while crack shot time is active. And as an MM you'd be familliar CST gives an average of 20% more dps on most skills coupled with higher effects/bonuses, which Soul is able to keep bullets well stocked.
Not to forget... the v/v bonus on soul increases critical damage per point.
So... how again does Prec outdps Soul.
This is of course on the premise of single target. -
Prec MMs have crit bonuses on FAW and Aimed Shot. The buff which gives crit all around is from the talent called Contact (2.5% 4/3). Which btw is attainable on any tree with runes.
Soul has an additional 3% crit going on while crack shot time is active. And as an MM you'd be familliar CST gives an average of 20% more dps on most skills coupled with higher effects/bonuses, which Soul is able to keep bullets well stocked.
Not to forget... the v/v bonus on soul increases critical damage per point.
So... how again does Prec outdps Soul.
This is of course on the premise of single target.
Its all arguable.
In terms of crits precision is the winner hands down. Not only does it have crit buffs but it also has that crit debuff which increases not only your crit rate but everyone else in the parties crit rate. Add to that the highest resistance debuff of the three trees and the two defense debuffs and precision is by and large giving more to the party than soul is.
Soul is an out an out pvp build. Thats its main purpose. Sure it can have some pve value as a single target dd and I have managed to steal a few seconds of impressive looking agro from some of Erydas agro monsters (usually a burst of rage crit on about 3/6 hits) but otherwise sins etc make mince meat of mms in the dps department. Yes with runes they are a little better buff wise but in terms of party value they cannot AoE like burst and cannot debuff like precision.
Its sad because its why I have spent an amount I won't disclose constantly changing builds but unlike mages there is no mm build except an evasion burst mm that can serve both pve and pvp adequately. By contrast a fire mage in pvp flavor is still a great pve class in instances requiring an AOE. In fact in direct comparison I can make a fire mage far more deadly than a burst mm at a fraction of the cost and before anyone ask yes I have a fire mage so I am talking from experrience.
MMs are just a poorly put together class and the gms and developers to date have said or done precious little to make our lives any better. -
Ghundam - Eyrda wrote: »Its all arguable.
In terms of crits precision is the winner hands down. Not only does it have crit buffs but it also has that crit debuff which increases not only your crit rate but everyone else in the parties crit rate. Add to that the highest resistance debuff of the three trees and the two defense debuffs and precision is by and large giving more to the party than soul is.
Soul is an out an out pvp build. Thats its main purpose. Sure it can have some pve value as a single target dd and I have managed to steal a few seconds of impressive looking agro from some of Erydas agro monsters (usually a burst of rage crit on about 3/6 hits) but otherwise sins etc make mince meat of mms in the dps department. Yes with runes they are a little better buff wise but in terms of party value they cannot AoE like burst and cannot debuff like precision.
Its sad because its why I have spent an amount I won't disclose constantly changing builds but unlike mages there is no mm build except an evasion burst mm that can serve both pve and pvp adequately. By contrast a fire mage in pvp flavor is still a great pve class in instances requiring an AOE. In fact in direct comparison I can make a fire mage far more deadly than a burst mm at a fraction of the cost and before anyone ask yes I have a fire mage so I am talking from experrience.
MMs are just a poorly put together class and the gms and developers to date have said or done precious little to make our lives any better.
Precisions debuffs are the greatest ones in game indeed but in a ks party its still shared to other partys so its a waste of time using it, rather keep dpsing all the time. So in that perspective soul is better but without ks precision do save us alot of time killing bosses[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Credits to BerenOneHand for the awesome sig
New arena video (2015/05/01):
youtube.com/watch?v=o3_ds-W-Hpo -
Ghundam - Eyrda wrote: »<snipped>
Its sad because its why I have spent an amount I won't disclose constantly changing builds but unlike mages there is no mm build except an evasion burst mm that can serve both pve and pvp adequately. By contrast a fire mage in pvp flavor is still a great pve class in instances requiring an AOE. In fact in direct comparison I can make a fire mage far more deadly than a burst mm at a fraction of the cost and before anyone ask yes I have a fire mage so I am talking from experrience.
MMs are just a poorly put together class and the gms and developers to date have said or done precious little to make our lives any better.
I am probably the hardest hitting burst MM on Lionheart, with 70K+ MFB crits and as stated above, there is no mm build except an evasion burst mm that can serve both pve and pvp adequately -
ILikeBigGu - Illyfue wrote: »Precisions debuffs are the greatest ones in game indeed but in a ks party its still shared to other partys so its a waste of time using it, rather keep dpsing all the time. So in that perspective soul is better but without ks precision do save us alot of time killing bosses
Agreed but if thats the case I'll just play an alt which is a better dd than my mm in soul flavour. -
I am crit built and i outdps prec as soul (430% crit damage / ~45 crit chance)
So the part that you only outdps as atk built is false
2 things.
1: 99% of mms don't have 45% crit chance. Why bother boasting and adding nothing to the conversation?
2: Drop your atk down to 1k and tell me soul still does more dgm with 430% crit dgm and 45% crit chance. Or even 2k.
Maybe I should've added that dps for prec increases at a lesser rate when compared to soul as majorily increase your crit chance. Reason being prec skills add a lot of 'passive' crit - instead of 30% yo go to 45%, an increase of 50%, while adding that same to a soul at 15% crit goes to 30% crit --> an increase of 100%.
Or you pointed that out, and I would've agreed. Instead you just boast about your personal stats, adding nothing of value.I am probably the hardest hitting burst MM on Lionheart, with 70K+ MFB crits and as stated above, there is no mm build except an evasion burst mm that can serve both pve and pvp adequately
And how much money does it take to make an 'eva' burst mm?. Maybe that's the only build at that 'gold level', which I can honestly say I'm no where near. -
1. I was proving you wrong as you said soul was better dps as ATK build /non CRIT2 things.
1: 99% of mms don't have 45% crit chance. Why bother boasting and adding nothing to the conversation?
2: Drop your atk down to 1k and tell me soul still does more dgm with 430% crit dgm and 45% crit chance. Or even 2k.
Maybe I should've added that dps for prec increases at a lesser rate when compared to soul as majorily increase your crit chance. Reason being prec skills add a lot of 'passive' crit - instead of 30% yo go to 45%, an increase of 50%, while adding that same to a soul at 15% crit goes to 30% crit --> an increase of 100%.
Or you pointed that out, and I would've agreed. Instead you just boast about your personal stats, adding nothing of value.
And how much money does it take to make an 'eva' burst mm?. Maybe that's the only build at that 'gold level', which I can honestly say I'm no where near.
Will point out why i typed my stats;
"In terms of dps, soul does not out dps prec 100% of the time - it depends purely on your equips. when I was back lv 1 winged, 9/12 gear, my prec dgm was MORE than soul. Reason being I built it heavy into crit dgm. Soul ONLY out dps prec if you have super high atk (full lv 3 atk gems, 12/12 weap, or lv 40+ mastery..) and low crit dgm."
2. I dont understand, why would i drop 1-2k atk? i did not sacrifice much atk for crit chance if that is what you are pointing out. Only thing would be helm, or that i kept lv70 hands instead of the rift gloves because current got crit chance still thats max 500atk in total.
Not following you at anything after that either. how you go from 30% to 45? or going 15% to 30% as soul?
True thatGhundam - Eyrda wrote: »Agreed but if thats the case I'll just play an alt which is a better dd than my mm in soul flavour.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Credits to BerenOneHand for the awesome sig
New arena video (2015/05/01):
youtube.com/watch?v=o3_ds-W-Hpo -
plusonecharisma wrote: »I am probably the hardest hitting burst MM on Lionheart, with 70K+ MFB crits and as stated above, there is no mm build except an evasion burst mm that can serve both pve and pvp adequately
Totaly Agree with this analysis
I play on french server which is Pve and pvp for every one, so your character must handle both modes.
I would like to had than : You can Go Hybrid Burst with Soul. You could have both Max burst of rage and Weakening cloud optimisation and Crit chance from soul tree.
I currently have 380 Eva, it's ok for pvp with players around 2000 - 2200 arena point.
Masteries arround 40 is ok.
With this type of marrksman you'lle be ok to fight against "medium + players" and pass dungeons.
Marksman is still a weak class in pvp so don't wait for you dawrf to shine in battle.
Have fun
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