What is a good evasion?

MicheleFoxx - Storm Legion
MicheleFoxx - Storm Legion Posts: 1 Arc User
edited August 2012 in General Discussion
Hello~ (:
Okay so I have a water bard & i wanted to have a lot of evasion on her for arena.
My question is... how much evasion should I have?
I know some people stack accuracy and I'm not necessarily trying to evade the few that do; I just want enough to be able to evade the attacks of most of the people in arena.
Post edited by MicheleFoxx - Storm Legion on
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Comments

  • treachery1
    treachery1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    You didn't say lvl, so I'm going to assume 70s: 350 eva or it's completely worthless, and that's still pretty low for full eva effect. Also remember that people stack crit chance and that ignores eva, so you'll need some crit def and resistance training too.
  • plusonecharisma
    plusonecharisma Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    If you continuously debuff peoples acc as a bard then you can get away with 350 EVA but without the debuffs MOST people will hit you. You dont have to stack ACC to have 600+ in arena and the stackers have 700+. At the top tiers of arena, EVA is almost useless for everyone except Sins and Vamps/ Surprise, those 2 classes dont even need EVA to be OP when geared equally against other classes but its not uncommon for a SIn to have 620+ EVA when using Swift Evasion.
  • Aishleen - Eyrda
    Aishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    treachery1 wrote: »
    You didn't say lvl, so I'm going to assume 70s: 350 eva or it's completely worthless, and that's still pretty low for full eva effect. Also remember that people stack crit chance and that ignores eva, so you'll need some crit def and resistance training too.
    Crit chance doesn't ignore evasion some people still believe that piece of **** rumor? Did you even test yourself instead of falsely believe it?

    As if it's something hard to test... I just took a warrior with DU and high crit, I popped swift evasion... he did not hit even once in whole duration. Yes that's totally sign that crits ignore evasion :rolleyes:


    350 evasion at level 70 is good, but 75+ you need 400+ to have any decent effect.
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  • Lushey - Eyrda
    Lushey - Eyrda Posts: 230 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Eva's only good if you either spend 5k$(And why spend 5k on eva when you can spend 5k on hp/accuracy/water mastery/lv2-3 wings/etc and be much stronger than someone with 450ish eva) on re-id's or just roll broken dark vampires. Noone goes eva as a water bard anymore. Ignorant people are the exclusion.
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    treachery1 wrote: »
    Also remember that people stack crit chance and that ignores eva
    Prove it.
  • treachery1
    treachery1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Crit chance doesn't ignore evasion some people still believe that piece of **** rumor? Did you even test yourself instead of falsely believe it?

    You crit me when I was buffed to 750+ eva D:
  • Aishleen - Eyrda
    Aishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    treachery1 wrote: »
    You crit me when I was buffed to 750+ eva D:
    lol I don't remember when was that maybe it was VI which gives 1000 accuracy. Or a lucky crit because the minimum hit chance is 5% even if you have 3000 evasion.
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  • Ashtan - Lionheart
    Ashtan - Lionheart Posts: 825 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    treachery1 wrote: »
    Also remember that people stack crit chance and that ignores eva,


    What kind of bull **** just leaked from you? Are you that dense? To crit someone you have to LAND an attack. To land an attack you need ACCURACY.... Eva and Acc work against each other. So If you don't have Acc you can't crit someone with a lot of eva... Sure if you LAND an attack once in a while you can crit but having high crit chance and no acc doesn't mean you will hit them 100%. Man I've said idiotic things before but nothing like this -.-
  • Lushey - Eyrda
    Lushey - Eyrda Posts: 230 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    What kind of bull **** just leaked from you? Are you that dense? To crit someone you have to LAND an attack. To land an attack you need ACCURACY.... Eva and Acc work against each other. So If you don't have Acc you can't crit someone with a lot of eva... Sure if you LAND an attack once in a while you can crit but having high crit chance and no acc doesn't mean you will hit them 100%. Man I've said idiotic things before but nothing like this -.-


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  • fthawe
    fthawe Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    For evasion bard say 400+ because you can't really debuff acc much
    But that means all double evasion id and mistshroud IV's

    For crit , I THINK it 'Improves accuracy by x2' because my friend who's a warrior tested in GT 155% crit chance with debuffed to 40-120 acc against lv70ish apostates, he missed some, but not all. He still hit consistently, around 4/5 times
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    fthawe wrote: »
    For evasion bard say 400+ because you can't really debuff acc much
    But that means all double evasion id and mistshroud IV's

    For crit , I THINK it 'Improves accuracy by x2' because my friend who's a warrior tested in GT 155% crit chance with debuffed to 40-120 acc against lv70ish apostates, he missed some, but not all. He still hit consistently, around 4/5 times
    Wrong. Npc mobs can be hit with virtually no accuracy. Crit doesn't factor in to hit chance
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  • treachery1
    treachery1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I'm going to go out on a very strong branch and say that none of the flamers have eva toons besides Aish. Aish doesn't count because she flames everyone. Honestly, the whole crit ignoring eva thing was told to me by random people and confirmed by other eva players...I didn't make it up. I can self buff to > 3k eva for 3 seconds and be killed by a mage crit (actually happened today with Peu's directional aoe). Either they have 4k acc, 2.7k eva debuff, or crit ignores eva...it has to be one of them. I can tell you that when I fight heavy eva, like Alucardl today, nothing lands for either of us but crit. We must be the most insanely lucky people of all time to crit every hit against a fellow eva. These are the things that I've observed resulting in my own opinion that it is confirmed.
  • Drachus - Eyrda
    Drachus - Eyrda Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I have an eva toon, though it is still low 70's only, it has 400+ eva. I feel I don't get crit really any more than I get hit normally, but the crits are much more noticable since the damage is more significant. I've seen enough to believe more along the lines of what Aish is saying, though like I said, I still have growing and learning to do.

    I have noticed one thing though... some people who try to stack eva don't even have crit dodge gems/decent crit dodge gems, because a lot of newbie people are under the false impression that stacking eva is a "cheaper" alternative to stacking other defensive stats ==;.
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  • homosimpsons
    homosimpsons Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    said it time and again.

    evasion is the most expensive build in the game because it doesn't work just by having high evasion. the foundation is still high resistance. you don't aim to evade all your opponent attacks, you deter your opponent red hand with evasion. Expect to take hits, don't just focus fully on evasion. Evasion below 450(combat buffed meaning priest/pet/gemlight, not counting buffs that boost evasion for a few seconds) in the current state of the game is useless and is only useful against scrubs.

    Bard and sins are the best class to go evasion in the game at the moment with runes.

    And no, crit does not ignore evasion. however red hand increase your chance to hit more.
  • Aishleen - Eyrda
    Aishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    treachery1 wrote: »
    I'm going to go out on a very strong branch and say that none of the flamers have eva toons besides Aish. Aish doesn't count because she flames everyone. Honestly, the whole crit ignoring eva thing was told to me by random people and confirmed by other eva players...I didn't make it up. I can self buff to > 3k eva for 3 seconds and be killed by a mage crit (actually happened today with Peu's directional aoe). Either they have 4k acc, 2.7k eva debuff, or crit ignores eva...it has to be one of them. I can tell you that when I fight heavy eva, like Alucardl today, nothing lands for either of us but crit. We must be the most insanely lucky people of all time to crit every hit against a fellow eva. These are the things that I've observed resulting in my own opinion that it is confirmed.
    Because it is like I already told you, a minimum hit chance regardless of your eva. There's no way to test this chance but I think it is something like 3% or 5%.

    I just got killed by Priest_Lovers today entering shadow protection (your 3k evaison) and it was not crit.

    Maybe the fact when you hit an eva toon it's usually a crit, is because of the flawed random generator in this game? Since hitting an eva toon is low chance, and if the random generator likes to make a lot of similar-valued random values in a row, then since you passed the eva test with a low chance, you will also most of the time pass the crit test as well.

    I have done countless tests and crits do not ignore evasion at all.


    That "crits ignore evasion" rumor started from a thread on CN servers about someone having this theory, but it was proven wrong even there, however since those reading it probably used Google Translate, they only read the title and first post and they thought it is true. It is a rumor started ages ago but people just still cling to it and never let it go even though it's obviously false.


    What more proof do you want other than a warrior with DU to a total of 70%+ crit rate, not hitting me in swift eva for 10 or more hits? Does that look like a 70% hit rate for you? >.>
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  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    The existence of two separate stats, one for dodging normal attacks (evasion) and one for dodging critical hits (crit dodge) may be responsible for this confusion.

    The fact is that evasion/accuracy determines whether an attacks hits or misses regardless of whether the attack is a normal attack or a critical hit.

    To my mind crit dodge activates after evasion fails to "evade" a crit.

    E.g. attack "rolls" and is a crit, target "rolls" attack is evaded. attack "rolls" and is a crit, target "rolls", evasion fails, target "rolls" crit dodge is successful.

    One possibility is that crit dodge adds to evasion but only functions when a critical attack is "rolled". A programmer would have to tell me what the coding possibilities for such a function would be.



    A person seeing evasion and crit dodge might think them to be operating separately therefore:

    Normal attacks are "dodged" by evasion

    Critical hits can only be dodged by "crit dodge"

    with that kind of thinking then a person would conclude that having a high critical strike rate would make having an evasion build useless.



    The reality in this game (lol) is that in order to combat evasion you must first stack accuracy. This ensures that any attack whether normal or a crit has a better chance of landing successfully. With a decent crit chance then it is very possible (coupled with your high accuracy) to have a higher proportion of your successful attacks being critical hits.


    The thing is that critical strike rate is a percentage chance of a normal attack being a critical. If you look at it from this view point then you see that the success of any attack landing is dependent solely on your accuracy in conjunction with your opponents evasion. The crit dodge function only comes into play once the attack "rolls" as a crit.

    Whether it (crit dodge) works after or in conjunction with evasion I am not sure.
  • fthawe
    fthawe Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Wrong. Npc mobs can be hit with virtually no accuracy. Crit doesn't factor in to hit chance

    NPC mobs do have evasion - the lowbies in the mentored gt missed 90% of the time
  • Brim_McRoy - Eyrda
    Brim_McRoy - Eyrda Posts: 3,047 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    fthawe wrote: »
    NPC mobs do have evasion - the lowbies in the mentored gt missed 90% of the time

    all mobs have all stats >.< thats why they can you know... fight you, and die by you
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  • sagek
    sagek Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    god theres a whole lotta douch.e in this thread.

    person asks a simple question and inquires about a rumor they heard and they get flamed by people who think they know this game better then anyone else... lol.

    /shakes head. f'n sad.

    god forbid someone come to the forums to try and learn something from players who might know what they are talking about and when they do they are only greated by such tasteless disrespect.

    even if this question has been asked 1000000 times, and you have answered it 1000000 No one is forcing you to read this thread and answer it yet again. If it bothers you that much freaking take the high road and ignore the thread and let someone else take a shot at answering it rather then scaring off people and adding to the reason why hardly anyone new comes to these forums. :rolleyes:
  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    fthawe wrote: »
    NPC mobs do have evasion - the lowbies in the mentored gt missed 90% of the time

    Not what was meant-"virtually no acc" meaning without precise gear or EE's- eg you can take a lvl50priest with 0 acc gems or gear and attack a lvl50 mob and it will connect 99.99% of the time. A level 10 priest attacking a lvl50 mob will miss because the mobs do have a miniscule amount of eva and it far out weighs the acc value of the the lvl10 priest. A nub attacking a mob 20-30 levels above it will miss. PVE you have 0 need for acc.
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • Brim_McRoy - Eyrda
    Brim_McRoy - Eyrda Posts: 3,047 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    sagek wrote: »
    god theres a whole lotta douch.e in this thread.

    person asks a simple question and inquires about a rumor they heard and they get flamed by people who think they know this game better then anyone else... lol.

    /shakes head. f'n sad.

    god forbid someone come to the forums to try and learn something from players who might know what they are talking about and when they do they are only greated by such tasteless disrespect.

    even if this question has been asked 1000000 times, and you have answered it 1000000 No one is forcing you to read this thread and answer it yet again. If it bothers you that much freaking take the high road and ignore the thread and let someone else take a shot at answering it rather then scaring off people and adding to the reason why hardly anyone new comes to these forums. :rolleyes:

    and no one is asking you to complain about it either :p
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  • treachery1
    treachery1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Maybe the fact when you hit an eva toon it's usually a crit, is because of the flawed random generator in this game? Since hitting an eva toon is low chance, and if the random generator likes to make a lot of similar-valued random values in a row, then since you passed the eva test with a low chance, you will also most of the time pass the crit test as well.

    That's one I can actually be on board with because it makes sense and explains what happens. I was looking at it the same way that other people on this post have said it is: crit chance is a percentage roll per number of landed strikes - that's just obviously not true to an eva build because 2/3 of all hits against me are simply not non-crits unless the person has the acc to support it.

    To OP: see my original answer and take out "ignores eva" and replace with "hurts when it lands, which is almost every hit because PWE random generator likes to make a lot of similar-valued random values in a row".

    I must say this discussion seems silly now that I realize what it's about and that we're discussing the same outcome with different explanations of that outcome because "ignores eva" was used. But whatever :D
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    It's not "the same" at all. If you have 60% critrate against 10% crit dodge, that's 50% chance to crit.

    If it "ignored eva" it means you had 50% chance to hit, even though you can't hit an evasion sin in Swift Evasion at all (only 5% minimum hitrate). You really don't understand this do you?

    Which means, even if it always crits that 5% because of the random number generator, then it still misses 95% of the time.

    It also means your critrate is 5% if you think it ignores eva. Not 50%. Just saying.
  • Brim_McRoy - Eyrda
    Brim_McRoy - Eyrda Posts: 3,047 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    aka stack eva no matter what, the higher the crit rate the higher the probability a crit hits no matter what :p
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  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I don't think you get it either. /facepalm
  • krimpton35
    krimpton35 Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    It's not "the same" at all. If you have 60% critrate against 10% crit dodge, that's 50% chance to crit.

    If it "ignored eva" it means you had 50% chance to hit, even though you can't hit an evasion sin in Swift Evasion at all (only 5% minimum hitrate). You really don't understand this do you?

    Which means, even if it always crits that 5% because of the random number generator, then it still misses 95% of the time.

    It also means your critrate is 5% if you think it ignores eva. Not 50%. Just saying.

    Sooo im going to jump in here and ask things too if i may, will porobably get flamed for being a noob.. But hey whats new :p

    So from what i get from reading the thread is, you have to have high accuracy to offset a guys high evasion just to hit them in the first places yes ?

    And then as per Borsook example above if i have 60 % crit rate and he has 10% crit dodge the 50 % chance to crit him will come into play..?

    So you cant realy make a toon with high accuracy and high crit chance.. and high evasion and crit dodge all at the same time can you. ?

    You realy have to specialise at one and hope for the best that its good enough for what you want ?
  • countcocula
    countcocula Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    well here is a different question to the eva topic...assuming lvl 70+, what's good eva number to have for only pve? i wouldn't think that class would matter so much from this side of it, since char's both party and solo. thoughts?
  • Brim_McRoy - Eyrda
    Brim_McRoy - Eyrda Posts: 3,047 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    well here is a different question to the eva topic...assuming lvl 70+, what's good eva number to have for only pve? i wouldn't think that class would matter so much from this side of it, since char's both party and solo. thoughts?

    i have 175 as a 75 prot and half mi me... theen again might be wrong mobs hit me for 1 damage
    I don't think you get it either. /facepalm

    and no i get what your saying >.< earn the ways of the troll young padawon
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  • fthawe
    fthawe Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    well here is a different question to the eva topic...assuming lvl 70+, what's good eva number to have for only pve? i wouldn't think that class would matter so much from this side of it, since char's both party and solo. thoughts?

    370+ BUT World bosses and bosses can still hit you with their special attacks and other skills like stuns
    Otherwise you are invincible to mobs
  • Aishleen - Eyrda
    Aishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    The existence of two separate stats, one for dodging normal attacks (evasion) and one for dodging critical hits (crit dodge) may be responsible for this confusion.

    The fact is that evasion/accuracy determines whether an attacks hits or misses regardless of whether the attack is a normal attack or a critical hit.

    To my mind crit dodge activates after evasion fails to "evade" a crit.

    E.g. attack "rolls" and is a crit, target "rolls" attack is evaded. attack "rolls" and is a crit, target "rolls", evasion fails, target "rolls" crit dodge is successful.

    One possibility is that crit dodge adds to evasion but only functions when a critical attack is "rolled". A programmer would have to tell me what the coding possibilities for such a function would be.



    A person seeing evasion and crit dodge might think them to be operating separately therefore:

    Normal attacks are "dodged" by evasion

    Critical hits can only be dodged by "crit dodge"

    with that kind of thinking then a person would conclude that having a high critical strike rate would make having an evasion build useless.



    The reality in this game (lol) is that in order to combat evasion you must first stack accuracy. This ensures that any attack whether normal or a crit has a better chance of landing successfully. With a decent crit chance then it is very possible (coupled with your high accuracy) to have a higher proportion of your successful attacks being critical hits.


    The thing is that critical strike rate is a percentage chance of a normal attack being a critical. If you look at it from this view point then you see that the success of any attack landing is dependent solely on your accuracy in conjunction with your opponents evasion. The crit dodge function only comes into play once the attack "rolls" as a crit.

    Whether it (crit dodge) works after or in conjunction with evasion I am not sure.
    Jeez that's too complicated I don't know why you guys like to complicate it so much just because of crit dodge being named "Dodge" and you think it has something to do with miss.

    It is a crit dodge, in other words, you dodge crits with it and make them normal hits instead.


    There's nothing to roll for crit dodge either, it is a very simple calculation of a % to see if an attack is crit or not. The end result % is attacker crit chance minus defender crit dodge, with a minimum chance to crit of 3% I think (arbitrary number, but there is a min chance I'm not sure how much).

    But all this happens after the game rolls to see if the attack is a hit or miss. And there's a minimum chance, again, to hit, regardless of eva.
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