Are Marksmen as bad as people say they are?

maxinum1425
maxinum1425 Posts: 146 Arc User
edited July 2012 in General Discussion
Hi, I was just wondering (Being a noob and everything) If marksmen are as bad as everyone says. Any information or opinions is greatly appreciated. thanks. Have a nice day.
Post edited by maxinum1425 on

Comments

  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    For pve? Nope they'rr fine, one of the better PVE classes with their very useful buffs and debuffs. Problem is while they are useful for pve, mm drops are worthless (see point about pvp) so generating income from doing instances and WB's is a little bit harder.

    For high level pvp? The poor rep comes from this facet of the game. If this interests you, roll something else. It's not that it's deadset awful, there's been recent improvements that give hope, but the frustration factor is much much higher because your margin for error is still extremley fine, you can be punishing in pvp but you need a lot more protection too than say the other ranged DD's so much so that in all honestly IMO as a mm it outweighs what i can bring to the table. I guess the best way to describe it is that it's not a bad class, but it has major flaws. There's simply far better and far more forgiving classes in a pvp. Personally I've hit the wall in arena I just float between 2.4-2.3k score in arena, most other mm have similar situations from most other servers. There's the occasional OP MM but generally it takes a lot more effort and a lot more resources to build a competitive MM. I QQ and encourage other mm to do it because well, there's not a lot of us left and if the few pvp mm don't qq we'll never get any improvement.

    I'm not going to say it's a class not worth trying because I wouldn't play it all the way to 80 if i didn't have any fun but seriously level a mm to 55 (it only takes a few days) try the pvp aspect at that level before committing any serious effort or cash. That's the part i kinda regret. Had i put in 1/3 or 1/2 the hours i put into my mm and into an ice mage or even a water bard instead IMO I'd have been far more satisfied in terms of PVP content
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • skylarkin
    skylarkin Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    tldr version is..

    (pve)
    Whatever role ur gonna spec ur MM into, chances are, there's a class equivalent doing it better than you.

    MM is decent, but there's always better
  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    skylarkin wrote: »
    tldr version is..

    (pve)
    Whatever role ur gonna spec ur MM into, chances are, there's a class equivalent doing it better than you.

    MM is decent, but there's always better

    Nah prec MM buffs are boss. A fully talented Hunters Mark is from recollection -120 resists and -5% +120 def. To top it off 8% more damage from pain mark. Plus converting all your acc to atk for your self and the party.IMO probably as good or even better than wind bard buffs. Just you have nothing in terms of survivability talents in pve and pvp.

    But yeah, it's a pretty sad state of affairs.
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • Hossulf - Eyrda
    Hossulf - Eyrda Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I am not a fan of the arena, playing mainly for the PvE aspect and ofc for our weekly guild GvG runs.

    Having spent most of my game time and efforts on my Burst (pure) MM, I will be lying if I claim not to have a load of fun playing my MM. In essence it is all relevant to one's preferences and what one wants to do with the char you are creating - if your intentions are to become a killing machine in the arena, I have to agree with the other posted comments and advise you to roll something else (even a Diamond spec Prot is a load of fun to play in a PvP situation).

    For me personally, I would not give up my MM for the tasks I use him for. In GvG having the buffs of my party members and the heals of a good Priest, my aoe damage quiclkly grabs the attention of the enemy and I am normally one of the first characters targeted by the enemy to be eliminated.

    I also do have a few high level alts that I play, but my MM and Diamond Prot is my favourite.

    In conclusion, all I can say is choose and play a character that you are comfortable with, after all we are in the game to have fun.
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    In a single word yes!

    In a few more words I would say a soul mm with high hp can be decent in PvP, a burst mm speced for eva can also be good but if you go precision you fail!

    As mentioned above your margin for error is slim. It is the most difficult class to play pvp wise in this game and I say this based on having played all the other classes.

    PvE wise doesnt matter. Actually soul in PvE isnt all that since sins are probably better single target dds.

    To sum it all up yes. MMs are the worst class to pick if you are interested in PvP. Two years and PWE/FW can't see past their fav class(es) and offer us a bit of balance.
  • Sugarboy - Eyrda
    Sugarboy - Eyrda Posts: 638 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I am not a fan of the arena, playing mainly for the PvE aspect and ofc for our weekly guild GvG runs.

    Having spent most of my game time and efforts on my Burst (pure) MM, I will be lying if I claim not to have a load of fun playing my MM. In essence it is all relevant to one's preferences and what one wants to do with the char you are creating - if your intentions are to become a killing machine in the arena, I have to agree with the other posted comments and advise you to roll something else (even a Diamond spec Prot is a load of fun to play in a PvP situation).

    For me personally, I would not give up my MM for the tasks I use him for. In GvG having the buffs of my party members and the heals of a good Priest, my aoe damage quiclkly grabs the attention of the enemy and I am normally one of the first characters targeted by the enemy to be eliminated.

    I also do have a few high level alts that I play, but my MM and Diamond Prot is my favourite.

    In conclusion, all I can say is choose and play a character that you are comfortable with, after all we are in the game to have fun.

    ^this....
    my mm isnt high level but i do enjoy playing him, makes a great alt to aoe farm since gearing him is considerably easy compared to the other classes. I dont use him for pvp though n the other posters explained that nicely
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    asd29 wrote: »
    That's the part i kinda regret. Had i put in 1/3 or 1/2 the hours i put into my mm and into an ice mage or even a water bard instead IMO I'd have been far more satisfied in terms of PVP content

    Here here. Thats also why I have quit using the cash shop. I feel exactly the same way. Its almost like being ripped of. I started spending on my mm thinking someway along the line it would be balanced but it isnt.

    I am back to full precision now because I no longer care about PWE/FW and its bs PvP! At least I can enjoy my PvE.
  • Nairas - Illyfue
    Nairas - Illyfue Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    pure burst mm here (the aoeeeeee)
    jumping around with a flamethrower cackling my lil buttoff.. i really love my lil midget
    the ranges that the aoe is im fairly certain its got more area then a mage does.
    i can happily attack a feth load of mobs at once and be happy as long as i have a priest.
    if i dont its called a splat attack... i attack i go splat!

    upsides to mm:
    in pve waaayyyy fun.. you can get your one buff to give 8% crit dd and 2.5% crit chance, if u spend a bit
    you can solo a bunch of stuff.
    can be really useful in squads
    you get to scream OH ****!!! a ton as 30+ mobs come charging at you that u just grabbed off the tanker (mobs not bosses and thats usually only because the tanks cant aoe agro spam and if you dont have a mage in squad, if there is, its usually them thats screaming)
    the cheapest class to play!!! seriously few silver per normal piece of gear.. 10-20g per purple elite gear. so if your out to make money with it.. go farm the mines and herbs, its about the best chance you get!

    downsides:
    goodluck living in arena.. get used to getting splat attacked.. often.. usually the first to die
    if not in first round, then surely by the second.
    though with the dots and the aoe that pretty much covers the entire arena floor.. you could be helpful, if you live long enough to get those dots stacked.
    goodluck making money by selling gear.. as mentioned, being the cheapest class also means that the gear sells are better put into scavenging then anything else.
    you go squish.. allot.. get used to death.. death is fun.. dont go bashing on the priest.. most of them do try keep us alive, but we are just not made to live, just to look uber cute! (the girls, boys are fugly)
    goodluck finding decent fashion.. you can easily say 90% of the stuff should not touch mm skin (lil 5 year old in a thong = wrong / men that look squished in all fashion rumpled and just.. dont)
    sometimes priests forget theres a midget in squad, and forget to heal the runt running around at their feet
    a death or 5 usually cures this

    all in all.. midget for pve is huge fun, if u can stand a few deaths even though u have 30k hp.

    midget in pvp.. give up go home get a new class lvled
    are we weak pve?... no chance.. theres so many dots and status effects that we "could" do that most of us dont do. theres 4-5? skills that stack up and increase out output dd as a whole... though using those things in pvp gets (slightly impossible) which also gives the look that we suck.
    but to get decent damage your going to have to focus on hp and attack gems.. ur crit chance and ur crit dd gems.. going to have to focus on runes and Masteries.. and really do allot that perhaps (i wouldn't know) the other classes might not have to focus fully on.
    so while our gear and skill scrolls are cheapass.. getting you mm decent.. thats going to be effort, unless your a casher xD

    i think im done with rant now xD
  • Trogotha - Storm Legion
    Trogotha - Storm Legion Posts: 662 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I see my fellow dwarves have pretty much covered things. I'll also second the routine squishiness of the class especially when going Burst but if you build Eva then you can easily survive the mobs without needing to use as many hp gems but on the downside, bosses still tend to hit so your smaller hp amount means easier deaths if you grab aggro / get hit with an unlucky aoe. The two classes that can really help you shine are prots with their Mass Taunt to hold mob aggro and priests with their shield that absorbs even more damage than our shield and has a much lower cd.

    I'll just add that since we're the only other and longest ranged aoe caster as well as the one with the most buffs / debuffs and stackable DoTs, we're routinely called for in PvE especially when there is a mage in the pt and it's a class roll for scrolls. Our biggest survival trick is making use of our range to stay out of harms way whilst still doing damage.

    I generally avoid PvP but my few experiences mirror the comments above when in arena helping guildies or doing the weekly GvG event. In the weekly GvG, I focus on other things besides killing the opposing team since I tend to die in 3 or fewer hits since I'm built for PvE unlike our opponents who are geared primarily for PvP.

    I have a blast in PvE and don't really focus on PvP so it's a good class for me. But to be fair, I would avoid PvP regardless of what class I was playing and specifically chose to roll on a PvE server given my past experiences with PvP.

    Overall, as long as you can accept your char being on the fragile side and don't want to competitively do pvp, you might thoroughly enjoy being a card carrying member of the walk softly and carry a big gun club. :D

    Standard Disclaimer: These observations come from my experience on Storm being a Burst / Prec hybrid, your server experience may vary. ;)
    Dear PWE Staff: I can haz avatar nao plox? :D
    For SCIENCE (and the LULZ)!
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The thing is, mages are just as good in PvE many times, and they are better in PvP because of more CC. Even though the MM shield right now is OP as hell, it's like a mage's mana shield without draining the mana.
  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The thing is, mages are just as good in PvE many times, and they are better in PvP because of more CC. Even though the MM shield right now is OP as hell, it's like a mage's mana shield without draining the mana.
    We have to trade spike damage for it so it does come with a price. It's good, but nowhere near as op as a water bard, or IMO even as good as Sinister protection + Drake Skin. Also bear in mind trees other than soul have a fairly difficult time generating bullets of which we only have 20 and it takes 3. But yeah it's helped a lot at least it's worth casting now unlike the 3k dmg it used toabsorb. That's right it only absorbed 3k dmg lol.
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • Trogotha - Storm Legion
    Trogotha - Storm Legion Posts: 662 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The thing is, mages are just as good in PvE many times, and they are better in PvP because of more CC. Even though the MM shield right now is OP as hell, it's like a mage's mana shield without draining the mana.

    Bors, I generally agree with you but I have to disagree with it being OP at this point for the following reasons:
    -Prior to the recent fix, the most it would absorb was ~3k even with talents in Soul since it was a flat rate which made it pointless for anything other than as a reminder we're the red headed stepchildren in FW.

    -Only Soul can do anything about the 90s cd and even then, given the average length of an arena match, it can be used every other round if lucky.

    -There is a max amount of damage that it will absorb and a time limit unlike a divine priest shield which has just at time limit. Most dedicated pvpers can take out the shield in a single hit so all it means is you need an extra hit to kill us.

    -In order to even cast it, we need to have a soul bullet and the less bullets we have when casting means the less effective it is so the quicker it will drop plus those bullets are consumed when casting meaning we can't use them for extra damage / extra skill effects.

    -Killing a MM empties our bullet clip so only a Soul MM will be able to quickly build enough bullets to use it during a pvp match routinely.

    The only thing the fix did was make it a proper "Oh Shnikes!" button that helps keep MM alive long enough for the healer to cycle to us regardless of situation.

    Do you want to complain the divine shield is OP as well since it has always absorbed much, much more and has a much lower cd or is that okay since it helps you? :p
    Dear PWE Staff: I can haz avatar nao plox? :D
    For SCIENCE (and the LULZ)!
  • Rothj - Eyrda
    Rothj - Eyrda Posts: 474 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    There are a few reasons why I think mms aren't really represented in high end arena. For starters there aren't very many of them, especially not cashed ones. If there was an uberly geared mm that could crit for 30k they might be looked at differently. As it is now even the top geared mms in the game just don't hit for much damage and they don't have good resists.

    Secondly an mm is way difficult to play, because you have the tools to be successful but it requires significant effort and support from your partners as well as the right gear. I believe mms are viable, for example if you took the best player in the world and gave him a level 3 winged mm he could do just as much with it as a level 3 winged warrior under equal circumstances, but the margin for error is extremely low.

    Third they are definetly the weakest class, there's no way around that. They have their niche for sure though. I just think there hasn't really been the right conditions to see an op mm(on eryda).
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    For the record yeah, divine shield is very OP :p And water bard shield, those 2 are insane shields.

    And yes, the MM shield was garbage before the change.
  • mrjuu
    mrjuu Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Mm's r not good for many things, but the things they can do, they generally do very well. Precision is great for pve instances to buff DMg on party. Burst is good for rift and other large scale battles. For all other pvp purposes, an mm is just too squishy to b able to make use of offensive talents, which isn't anything amazing to put it nicely. On eyrda, there have been high end mm's before, bebe and necrosis are good examples, their stats and gear were just as good as anybody elses for their time... Pvpwise they never managed to b part of the top bracket tho... Mm in general are underpowered so if u r one of those ppl that want to b competitive at the top lvl, avoid mm.
  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Considering all this though, I wonder what the situation is for mm on CN servers? Again a lot of talents we qq about from other classes are apparently toned down so they're not as op. And are yet to be applied to our version. And considering crabclaw has stated that we follow CN version 99% of the time it'd be interesting to see what would happen if the rest of the classes got brought back to us( of course when they mean nerf it probably mean nerfing mm too so it'll just the same old story) but it'd be nice to see if there's any hope ie a late blooming class. But, as it's open pvp on all servers there it can't be as underpowered as this? Surely there's a few dominant MM there?

    I really don't think there's too much they'd need to do to get us competitive though. A reduced reliance on hunter's mark and a reliable cc would help a lot.

    Until/Unless they sort the pvp situation out I think you'll see MM just die out. I mean why roll a mm when you can just roll either a vamp/mage/bard which will have pvp utility and considering the sheer amount of pvp content coming it's kinda sad really
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • Nairas - Illyfue
    Nairas - Illyfue Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    if/when mms actually put rune talents to their shield it can get a bit op.. note though ive only got 1 rune (soultree) for the shield but even that single rune has made a huge difference.

    as for "if mms actually crit for 30+k.. i do.. often.. usually between 28k-48k crits (yes low compared to some other classes crits ive seen)
    but then again 80% of my gems are still lvl2 and cant even boast on the almost invisible lvl1 wings.

    to being prec for the damage buff, between just being in squad to buff them.. to being able to take out a bunch of mobs at once, i really do prefer just maxing the runes in prec crit chance and forsaking the extra dd buff that comes before it (i would sell my granny for that rune if it ever pitched up)

    and the speed i can solo bounty orders to super lvl my nubs thanks to the aoe still stuns me since i can take the entire 75-79 area by myself in afk grounds, though i try not to do that too often.

    being good mm is not hard, but you really have to work at it is all


    and priests and bards bubble *droolllllzzzzzz* could not live without that, and its saved me so many times its scary (one of the reasons never to trashtalk the priest)
    though between its cooldown and before the priest can get it up again, ive found myself dying in those few seconds often
  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012

    as for "if mms actually crit for 30+k.. i do.. often.. usually between 28k-48k crits (yes low compared to some other classes crits ive seen)
    but then again 80% of my gems are still lvl2 and cant even boast on the almost invisible lvl1 wings.

    You pull 28-48k crits in pvp on lvl 1 and 2 gems? In 75+arena? Doubt it. The crit damage comment was in regards to high level arena. If you're hitting players for 28-48k on lvl I & II gems in 75+arena then please post combat logs lol.

    No-one is saying it's a bad class for pve. PvE content in this games is easy though so some deficiencies are masked easily. PvP is where it falls flat.
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • Aishleen - Eyrda
    Aishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    asd29 wrote: »
    You pull 28-48k crits in pvp on lvl 1 and 2 gems? In 75+arena? Doubt it. The crit damage comment was in regards to high level arena. If you're hitting players for 28-48k on lvl I & II gems in 75+arena then please post combat logs lol.
    Pretty sure he was talking about PvE mobs... even though what he replied to was actually about PvP <.<
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Nairas - Illyfue
    Nairas - Illyfue Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    asd29 wrote: »
    You pull 28-48k crits in pvp on lvl 1 and 2 gems? In 75+arena? Doubt it. The crit damage comment was in regards to high level arena. If you're hitting players for 28-48k on lvl I & II gems in 75+arena then please post combat logs lol.

    No-one is saying it's a bad class for pve. PvE content in this games is easy though so some deficiencies are masked easily. PvP is where it falls flat.

    nope i was thinking pve again my bad
    i dont think pvp first thought about anything.. always pve.. so sorry for me mixup
  • plusonecharisma
    plusonecharisma Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    asd29 wrote: »
    For pve? Nope they'rr fine, one of the better PVE classes with their very useful buffs and debuffs. Problem is while they are useful for pve, mm drops are worthless (see point about pvp) so generating income from doing instances and WB's is a little bit harder.

    For high level pvp? The poor rep comes from this facet of the game. If this interests you, roll something else. It's not that it's deadset awful, there's been recent improvements that give hope, but the frustration factor is much much higher because your margin for error is still extremley fine, you can be punishing in pvp but you need a lot more protection too than say the other ranged DD's so much so that in all honestly IMO as a mm it outweighs what i can bring to the table. I guess the best way to describe it is that it's not a bad class, but it has major flaws. There's simply far better and far more forgiving classes in a pvp. Personally I've hit the wall in arena I just float between 2.4-2.3k score in arena, most other mm have similar situations from most other servers. There's the occasional OP MM but generally it takes a lot more effort and a lot more resources to build a competitive MM. I QQ and encourage other mm to do it because well, there's not a lot of us left and if the few pvp mm don't qq we'll never get any improvement.

    I'm not going to say it's a class not worth trying because I wouldn't play it all the way to 80 if i didn't have any fun but seriously level a mm to 55 (it only takes a few days) try the pvp aspect at that level before committing any serious effort or cash. That's the part i kinda regret. Had i put in 1/3 or 1/2 the hours i put into my mm and into an ice mage or even a water bard instead IMO I'd have been far more satisfied in terms of PVP content

    QFT

    I'm lv80 MM and as much as I would like to see more MMs on the servers, its not the class I would recommend to play. I stuck it out waiting for it to get better and it hasnt. Its wildly expensive at the end game to stay moderately competitive in PVP. IE full reforgable blue arena gear, +10 to +12 refines, lvl 3 & 4 gems, mastery of at least lv50 and resistances all at lv30 and above makes me competitive to a ceiling of about 2200-2300 in arena. In comparison, other classes with similar stats can compete at 2500 and above. That 200-300 arena pts is insurmountable as a MM without spending another $500 plus on my toon.

    You cant use the ToK set in arena cause you wont last long enough to use its atk bonuses.

    Ive put a lot of thought into how to balance the MM class and the only way I see to do it, is to change the hard coded skill damages to percentages. We also need less dependence on Hunters Mark and more base Eva, HP, ATK or all 3.

    TLDR: a $50 vamp or mage is better than a $250 MM
  • IaiStrike - Eyrda
    IaiStrike - Eyrda Posts: 444 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    It's not the base eva. It's the lack of a constant ability to debuff acc the way a vamp or bard could.
  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Im ok with being the hardest class for pvp - I feel its more rewarding. But when the gap to the other classes is huge it's pretty disheartening. We have prot cast times with the range of a mage but with the squishiness of one and the cc of neither.

    IDK I hope they do something though, but I have doubts. Fact of the matter is all these flaws should've been more apparent on CN servers which are open pvp and have more organised pvp content yet almost 2 years on it's still the same old story. The supposed cap will be lvl 100-120 - there's not a lot of levels left for improvement. We're almost at end game. The funny thing is almost all serious pvp'ers acnowledge the shortcomings of a MM, yet it seems to be the white elephant in the room for Devs and PWE staff

    EDIT: Also more eva would be nice but without a constant acc debuff it's pretty useless for us IMO. Having tried both the eva route and now staying with the arena set, there's just far too many eva destroying debuffs and+ACC talents to make it viable for us without an acc debuff especially with how easy it is to get 600+acc
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration