Are Protectors useless at lvl 70+?

2

Comments

  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    A few thoughts about marble protector, Lv80:

    A Tank has to keep aggro, for marble on 10x Fury:

    Eg. aggro calcs (please correct me if wrong):

    Upheaval (8s CD):
    (100% + 30% [Magma Burst] ) attack + (3526 bonus * (100% + 20% [Fury] + 100% [Firepower Coverage])) * (100% + 100% [Magma Burst] + 60% [Abominable Will])

    assume 3k attack:
    (1,3 * 3000 + 3526 * 2,2) * 2,6 = 30,3k aggro

    Earthen Penance Lv2 (15s CD):
    (100% + 30% [Energy of the Land]) attack + ((6168 + 30% def) bonus * (100% + 100% [Firepower Coverage])) * (100% + 60% [Abominable Will])

    assume 3k attack, 1k def:
    (1,3 * 3000 + (6168 + 0,3 * 1000) * 2) * 1,6 = 27k aggro

    without crits and masteries

    I'd like to see a similar aggro calc from any other class

    Marble seems best at holding aggro

    Also, Mental Focus skill description states that Fury will increase aggro. I'm not sure if this simple refers to the different aggro boni based on fury that other talents/skills give, or if it means there is yet another aggro multiplier to be added to above calcs.

    A Tank has to survive, for Marble:
    * 21% dmg reduction in Guardian Mode (quasi-permanent)
    * high def.
    * reduce target attack by 35%: 15% (Crushing Punch) + 10% (Taunt at 10x Rage) (+10% if you put 5 pts in Granite Mental Protection)
    * reduce crit chance % + crit dmg % on target
    * 11sec Invulnerability (+ self-heal) / 5-4min CD; 60% dmg reduction for 12 sec / 2min CD

    But, one could argue, no need for a tank, though, with "squishies" at 30k+ hp, I guess :)

    You my friend are a ****ing boss.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Ok I was (for the most part) the top protector on my server before i quit. The problem with protectors is that in pvp they have no way of getting to the enemy without getting cc'd to death. Any ice mage, water bard, dark vamp, or sin that has half a brain can kill a protector 10 lvls higher with 1 lvl higher wings. (yes at lvl 80 with lvl 2 wings i was beaten by a lvl 70 water bard without wings SOLELY because mana is STUPID AS HELL).

    As for PvE it is true that protectors do take the least dmg and do reduce the total dmg taken by the entire team with the defense buff. HOWEVER a priest cannot just forget about a prot in a high lvl instance unless that prot is very well geared. Ya, i was pretty much invincible in pve after i had 48k hp and 1.8k def, nothing can hurt me woopdie do. When i recall back to the days before i got that buff i was actually worse for the team than a buff vamp tanking. The vamp does take more dmg, this is TRUE, but the major difference is that the vamp can do something that the prot should be able to do, SELF HEAL. I have been talking to my guild members about this for months the way for them to fix the balance of prots in tanking instances is give them a self heal. Because with that the priest CAN actually just forget about them, and thats what they were designed for. As it is now sure the mob will never be able to kill me, but it couldnt kill the vamp, war, bard, sin, or priest at my gear lvl either. And all of those classes give the team something extra that the protector CANNOT, whether it be to do some actually decent dps (vamp, war, sin) or to cast heals (bard, priest).

    Healing a prot is easier because we wont get spiked down very easily, BUT in a difficult situation a prot always REQUIRES heals which makes them a pretty bad tank imho. A war can fulfill that role just as easily. A vamp makes the best tank imo solely because the priest does not have to worry about them at ALL.

    ok so ya thats my 2 cents from a rather ticked off player at this game's obvious unbalance.

    A self heal? Are you serious? Prots don't need the self heal at all. With the defense buff, healing aura (which helps the entire party A LOT), and retal aura if need be (for mobs and pvp) the prots bring a lot to the party. They bring stablilty to the party which no other class can do that. If you go attack based they even bring damage to the table as well. I have 31k base hp with 1.6k defense and my attack range is 3k-3.1k atm and i keep up with DPS, i hurt in pvp, i can hold aggro from just about any class aside from high crit builds with lvl 2 wings or higher, AND i help keep the party up. Best part is I am still wearing 70 gear. I haven't even switched to my 75+ stuff yet and i have achieved great tanking and use in a party. I don't know how you played your prot but i bring a lot to the table when i come into a party. I still prots are the most underated class in the game. It's sad when a prot gets discouraged from his/her class but we need to stick this class. It is not useless at all.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    oh yea don't forget about the party speed buff, stuns, disarms for pvp, and aoe slows which get really dirty later on. Yea we don't bring shiit to the party. -.-
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • TheHulkgor - Storm Legion
    TheHulkgor - Storm Legion Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I'm a level 80 protector and I certainly feel useless. It doesn't matter how much you bring to the party when you're not needed and you aren't useful to the party. Why take a protector (especially marble) with you when you can take another class that deals more damage and finish the instance faster? The priest can outheal everything anyway. The only time I really find myself useful is when the priest doesn't have Angelic Harmony when running The Forgotten Prison. There are virtually no mobs in Aeon Spire and another class can tank just fine in that case.

    Being a protector was GREAT before level 70! I never felt useless and was always asked for in parties. And not surprisingly, half of the friends on my friends list were priests who added me after running an instance. But after level 70, I pretty much never hear from thoses priests again because they get AH and can just take 5 damage dealers. The game has been very unfriendly towards protectors in the end game with Angelic Harmony and Aeon Spire.

    Obviously I'm not happy about this - I am just telling it as it is. The fact is, I can't get into the parties I want to get in to. I'm hoping that the new instances will make protectors useful again with some nasty mobs that AH can't outheal.
  • Unbrokenable - Lionheart
    Unbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    1 golden word u sucked playin a prot if u quitted playin 1... u sucked so bad u ended up makin another class..

    GTFO frm the prot section if u are a loser in the class and go to the class section u play...
    I don't know where the **** talk is coming from, but Thibault was (is) one of the players I respect the most so I value his opinion more than your ramblings.
    my attack range is 3k-3.1k atm and i keep up with DPS
    My attack is in the ballpark of 4.2k-4.4k. I still don't think I'm keeping up with DPS. If you just take a cursory glance over the skills on say a warrior or assassin, you'll realize pretty quickly that protectors' damage doesn't scale nearly as well.
    oh yea don't forget about the party speed buff, stuns, disarms for pvp, and aoe slows which get really dirty later on. Yea we don't bring shiit to the party. -.-
    From what I've seen we're very good at being *annoying*. But we typically aren't that deadly. (1) We are melee, so as a CC class we actually aren't that great since our targets can get away from us and (2) as a damage dealer, with our slow casts it's difficult to spike enough damage to bring someone down. Protectors have nearly nothing to help with crits, and while a single strike from FoF can chunk away tons of health an attentive priest throws a wrench in your plans pretty quickly.
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    But your forgetting about earth pen 2 which is one of the hardest hitting skills in the game. I am still rocking 70 gear and i am sure with 75+ gear i will have around the same attack or more and i have take people down. Just today i was doing 6v6 and was taking down a party who had lvl 2 wings. Just goes to show that the prot can actually dish out damage pvp to take people down. PvE my damage is more than enough to keep up with other classes. I do agree that AS and GoS take away from what the prot does but I am sure this new instance isn't going to be as easy to get away with if you don't have a prot. I still get all of the runs i need cause i start the parties and people have no complaints when we do runs. Everything is always smooth and no one dies. Our runs are still quick as hell and we have no problem. Maybe we just have different experiences but i sure as well don't feel useless. CC in arena isn't a problem between adv badges and soul of stone. PvE i just have to hit hard enough to generate enough bonus aggro. I still protecteors aren't useless.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I'm a level 80 protector and I certainly feel useless. It doesn't matter how much you bring to the party when you're not needed and you aren't useful to the party. Why take a protector (especially marble) with you when you can take another class that deals more damage and finish the instance faster? The priest can outheal everything anyway. The only time I really find myself useful is when the priest doesn't have Angelic Harmony when running The Forgotten Prison. There are virtually no mobs in Aeon Spire and another class can tank just fine in that case.

    Being a protector was GREAT before level 70! I never felt useless and was always asked for in parties. And not surprisingly, half of the friends on my friends list were priests who added me after running an instance. But after level 70, I pretty much never hear from thoses priests again because they get AH and can just take 5 damage dealers. The game has been very unfriendly towards protectors in the end game with Angelic Harmony and Aeon Spire.

    Obviously I'm not happy about this - I am just telling it as it is. The fact is, I can't get into the parties I want to get in to. I'm hoping that the new instances will make protectors useful again with some nasty mobs that AH can't outheal.

    And yes Hulk, i see you all the time. =P Just sayin..this is Fakie. XD
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • Unbrokenable - Lionheart
    Unbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    But your forgetting about earth pen 2 which is one of the hardest hitting skills in the game. I am still rocking 70 gear and i am sure with 75+ gear i will have around the same attack or more and i have take people down. Just today i was doing 6v6 and was taking down a party who had lvl 2 wings. Just goes to show that the prot can actually dish out damage pvp to take people down. PvE my damage is more than enough to keep up with other classes. I do agree that AS and GoS take away from what the prot does but I am sure this new instance isn't going to be as easy to get away with if you don't have a prot. I still get all of the runs i need cause i start the parties and people have no complaints when we do runs. Everything is always smooth and no one dies. Our runs are still quick as hell and we have no problem. Maybe we just have different experiences but i sure as well don't feel useless. CC in arena isn't a problem between adv badges and soul of stone. PvE i just have to hit hard enough to generate enough bonus aggro. I still protecteors aren't useless.

    Yeah Earthen Penance hurts, I used FoF as an example cause that's the hardest hitting skill we have. Every hard-hitting prot skill still has the same problem though. In terms of damage I'd put FoF > Soul of the Land > Earthen Penance > Counter-Strike. Once all these are used you're basically in cooldown-land, the things you have left don't have as much punch to them.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say Protectors are useless, they're simply underpowered.
  • rayminh
    rayminh Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    the weakness of prot is not the damage but the time of the casting skill 2s, for most skill except for hard smash is just too terrible
    also, as me being in the best G of server, u get to see lots of war/sin/vamp/mage dealing 50k+ damage, especially vamp 4th charm strike hit like 190k with crit, it is just impossible to keep up with dps like that. (my FoF can only hit 25k with 10 fury and my EP hit like 15k, im diamond 40 mastery with almost full epic purple including weapon 75+). Come to lionheart and see who's tanking koubo/moss/tarras/EB 75 bosses, it's either dark vamp, ele war, water bard or rebel priest, prot does not have function in such main boss hunting party anymore.
    another good comparison is that my prot solo boss in GL took like 20 min to kill the boss with around 3-4 times getting green buffs, while with almost equal geared vamp can solo boss in like 10 min.
    So yeah, prot sucks with casting time and single hit skill.
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Yea i altered my rotation a bit to mess around with the cast times. I use my threat because it reduces dmg and eva. So throwing hard smash in more (if your marble with the some diamond you have that talent that increases it dmg by a lot) so that is spammable every 1st and 3rd skill in the rotation. That along with retal aura and timing of the your heavy hitters you should have no problem. Also crit dodge solves that end game peak dmg problem with the crit builds. That stuff really does work! I don't think they under powered they just require more thought in battle. I take down people with lvl 2 wings and all the crazy gems all the time. I also keep aggro from them too so i still don't think so.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • Unbrokenable - Lionheart
    Unbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    So throwing hard smash in more (if your marble with the some diamond you have that talent that increases it dmg by a lot) so that is spammable every 1st and 3rd skill in the rotation. That along with retal aura and timing of the your heavy hitters you should have no problem.
    PvE -- Yes, PvP -- I would much rather not shove Hard Smash between skills cause quite simply there isn't time to. Typically I use it when I think I can kill them within the next 2 attacks.
    Also crit dodge solves that end game peak dmg problem with the crit builds. That stuff really does work! I don't think they under powered they just require more thought in battle. I take down people with lvl 2 wings and all the crazy gems all the time. I also keep aggro from them too so i still don't think so.
    The problem isn't people critting on me, it's that I can't crit on them. Protectors have very little issue with staying alive, they have issues with spiking enough damage to kill someone.
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Hard smash gets down to a 1 sec CD and you have to throw it in inbetween the cool downs of CS, EP, and Upheavel. It's a great filler and with that diamond talent it starts to hit really hard. The talent maxes out at 10% more bonus dmg and 100% masteries counted as dmg. That makes it a hard hitting skill that you can spam every other skill and only has a 1 sec cool down. That timed with EP and Upheavel(which will lower eva as well) you can in fact dish out a nice amount of damage. A lot of people don't really work on earth resist either so having the masteries and earth attack really helps in PvP as well.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • navrielle
    navrielle Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    End game pve, 70+ prots are useless. There's currently no in-game pve content that would prove otherwise. Only route you got is pvp.
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    yet I continue to get runs AND go to pvp when I want? I don't get complaints. I wouldn't call that useless.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • ProtHead - Lionheart
    ProtHead - Lionheart Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    So. I am a Prot. I ran Oac the other day without a priest. Does that make priests useless?? Of course NOT!!!! Prots make everyone stronger, reduce the targets damage significantly, and look really really cool.
  • ProtHead - Lionheart
    ProtHead - Lionheart Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    navrielle wrote: »
    End game pve, 70+ prots are useless. There's currently no in-game pve content that would prove otherwise. Only route you got is pvp.

    NO SUCH THING AS END GAME YET!!!! Still Beta.. nightfall.. blah blah.. Here is my proof. Having a Protector in a party makes the Healers job easier. PERIOD!! That is all instances, mob heavy like FP, or mobless like WBs. With a Protector in party your healers have less to heal.
  • Ginius - Illyfue
    Ginius - Illyfue Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    You guys seem to misunderstand 2 different things:

    needed =/= useful


    Basically, according to the late instance you're going, there are only "role" which are needed, and some class/tree can be better to fulfill it.

    You basically "need" a main healer, a tank and sometimes some AOE (for GoS mainly).

    For the main healer, a divine priest is in my opinion the best choice, for the diversity of skills (buffs/ single target heal / group heal).
    However blood vamp can fill the spot too, or even others according to the party, hell I've been doing AS HM with blood vamp as main healer, and AS normal with glacial priest as main healer too (with wind bard).
    Anyway, even if it's doable, I still like a divine priest better.

    As for the tank, many classes can do it, and with the actual end game, even if prots are not useless, any other class with enough HP and DPS to tank can fullfill this job (war, vamp even some sins/mages can do it).
    Those can survive and keep aggro from a ST and deal way more damages than any prot, therefore it's more efficient without.
    However having a prot in pt is safer when we have an average team, in terms of survability if something goes wrong.

    So to sum it up, at the current end game, PvE wise, prots are not useless but they are not needed either.
    Some will like to have a safer run with a prot, easier to heal, less pots to use but it will be a bit longer whereas some will like to have a faster run, expecting everyone to stay focused and to not do many mistakes.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Unbrokenable - Lionheart
    Unbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I'll agree with Ginius here. At least in terms of instances protectors will always be useful, it's just my opinion that there are better choices now.

    I still believe protector PvP is pretty **** though. With the exception of the mass-PvP situation (i.e. IR or guild war) where they're actually pretty good.
  • thethibault
    thethibault Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I would actually agree with Ginius as well, as i stated before they are not useless just that a war or dark vamp can do their job (as tank) better than a prot.

    My biggest problem with prots was there complete inbalance in pvp. They are USELESS in pvp, at least at the higher end of pvp. As a prot you need to be at least $1000 more invested in your character than any other class to have any use in pvp. Because if you cant kill them in one hit from FoF, your gonna die from any experienced group.

    Also i would like to say that i agree with Unbrokenable that they are pretty decent in mass pvp, just terribly bad in arena (although slightly better in 6v6 than 3v3).

    If you have any plans of playing your character long-term with intentions of doing any kind of pvp, while having the feeling that you are genuinely helping your team, DONT play a prot. If you are just a casual player that is only mildly interested in mmos with no plans of doing pvp, then play a prot, they are really fun early levels and are awesome to look at.

    Final point is, im sticking to Dota 2 until Guild Wars 2 comes out, because when GW2 comes out the population of FW goes to pretty much 0 instantly :)
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Actually i have never cash shopped and I bring down just about every class in arena. I'm an attack based prot with the trev set 9/12 with all lvl 3 gems. (rage, sol, blood) I put money into crit dodge, masteries, and resist. I have a 2300+ 3v3 score and 2k+ 6v6 score and i get the most kills out of my team. So I don't understand how prots are useless in pvp if I can pull that off. To top that all off I am a marble prot. The prot is a very strong class pve and pvp but you have to know how to play the class to get the most use of it. Just because most prots generally don't know their class doesn't mean the prot is useless. Unless you are high crit chance DPS with lvl 2 wings or higher(good wings, not shiity wings) you are not pulling aggro off of me in any instance. I also hit for 15-16k with rh without crit in arena, 8-9k's without rh.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • thethibault
    thethibault Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Actually i have never cash shopped and I bring down just about every class in arena. I'm an attack based prot with the trev set 9/12 with all lvl 3 gems. (rage, sol, blood) I put money into crit dodge, masteries, and resist. I have a 2300+ 3v3 score and 2k+ 6v6 score and i get the most kills out of my team. So I don't understand how prots are useless in pvp if I can pull that off. To top that all off I am a marble prot. The prot is a very strong class pve and pvp but you have to know how to play the class to get the most use of it. Just because most prots generally don't know their class doesn't mean the prot is useless. Unless you are high crit chance DPS with lvl 2 wings or higher(good wings, not shiity wings) you are not pulling aggro off of me in any instance. I also hit for 15-16k with rh without crit in arena, 8-9k's without rh.

    Ok im sorry, but your either trolling or on the worst server ever. In Lionheart, a PVE server, if you dont have lvl 3 wings as a prot, good luck getting past 2400 arena score, its impossible. Almost every person in the arena pool will have 400-500 evasion with ~40k hp. So if you dont have about 550-600 Accuracy and about ~60k hp your dead in about 8 seconds. And just so you know, i was the highest arena score prot on my server. 2400 3v3 and 2250 6v6, thats literally the highest i could get with lvl 2 wings ( all BS, Crystalline, Rage, EE), 4 purple gears (including yellow weapon), all +10 or better (3 at +12), i had 240% crit def, so no crit ever hurt me more than a regular attack ever, even from mage crit builds. I had lvl 55 Earth mastery, lvl 20 Light mastery, and lvl 40 all resists, with a few at lvl 50 (Light only at like 20). I ran a full diamond build with max stuns. There was no prot on the server that could beat me in any situation.

    With THAT said, any team with half a brain could almost instantly make me useless. The strength of a prot comes from being ignored until the end while getting orbs for red hand then nearly one-shotting everyone with red-hand. BUT if the teams are smart they have a bard or priest or any elf drain your mana ASAP. And without mana idc what gems/gear/build/skill/computer you have you are worthless. Protector skills also take forever to cast so any ice mage with half a brain can just constantly keep you frozen so you can never cast a spell. Oh and dont forget about dark bonds, transform, or an assassin's ability to perma stun.

    That being said, I could easily kill any war, mm, or prot on the server (wars especially). So if your facing teams of any combination of those three than Yippee for you, you happen to be facing the worst teams possible!

    So, icauseriots, you are either not telling the truth or just on a terrible server that just doesn't know how to deal with good prots yet. If that is the case i give it 1 month (if nothing is balanced) until you are rendered completely useless in any arena situation as far as a damage dealer. What i have yet to toy around with yet is the granite prot build and just going pure support and staying at the back, honestly this seams to be the best strategy i can think of for the worst pvp class in the game.

    Sorry for the lengthy reply but i really think this is getting out of hand. At high lvl pvp prots are useless,, at low lvl pvp prots are decent, at low lvl pve prots are GREAT, at high lvl pve prots are unecessary (not useless, but just as good as any other class).
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Actually not at all. If you are in a 3v3 situation with a good team than you don't need to ignored. With high resist and a good crowd control fighting along with you and of course a healer a prot will do just fine arena. I'm on the storm server and i got against sins, wars, and dark vamps all the time who are really nicely geared. I still hold my argument that a prot who knows what he/she is doing can make the prot class not useless. Fighting against the crowd control can be taken care of with good timing of the badges and soul of stone. Yes prots have a slow attack speed but at the same time we also hit really hard. With a nicely timed stun and 75%+ orbs a prot can take out those squishy classes in a few hits. It's even easier when they don't have a healer. Granted, yes, CC classes can make a prots life miserable but that doesn't render us useless. You just have to know how to fight against them. Also i'm not talking from a diamond point of view, i am talking from marble point of view. Diamonds are just good for stun locking and that is all. Now a marble prot on the other hand has a lot to fight against people. With full chaos taunt and upheavel we reduce eva by 56 which is quite a lot. You need about 1.5 acc to combat against 1 eva point so if someone have 450+ eva and you have 450+ acc and you reduce their eva you will be able to hit them. The best part about that is once you get past the eva they are usually very squishy. On top of that we also have soul of stone which removes all debuffs and gets us out of stun/sleep so that will take out a bard or a dark vamp pretty quick considering if they aren't pure eva based they will go down quick. To top that all off we also slow and if you want to put points in that part of the tree you can make it a dirty slow.(Double slow with earth rift and rock slide!) On top of the eva reduction we have more damage reduction than a diamond making us survive a lot more with the def, resist, crit dodge builds. To combat against the mana drains you just have to time your advanced mana badges along with hitting up mana fountains. It's not rocket science. Marble is a lot better for pvp than diamond, shiit, even granite is better than diamond for pvp. Diamond is only good for wars and what not cause of their CC.

    Go learn more about the prots before you come on here telling me i'm lying.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Oh and lets not forget that our mass taunt also reduces acc by 90 so if your partied with a dark vamp that is high eva builds that just makes them even better. So on top of attacking, debuffing, and damage reduction..we can also be good support. Not to mention that our RP heals giving us a second wind and Entrench makes our relat aura and heavy hitting skills (EP, CS, etc etc) hit a lot stronger considering it takes 30% of the defense and uses it.

    Learn your class. -.-
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • Kumbh - Storm Legion
    Kumbh - Storm Legion Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    certainly CS doesnt teach u how to play .....and i am with Fakie out here perhaps we 2 are the only full attack base marble prots on storm server.. and hell i got lvl 1 wings with no resists at all and i am at 2300+score. its how u play ur class dumbass and not what others do to u..

    only a halfbrain idiot like u wastes all the cash ,fails at gameplay and whines the fck in forums .......go play runescape best for u
  • Kumbh - Storm Legion
    Kumbh - Storm Legion Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    frgot to mention i havent csed 1 bit all my gears are +9 with a mix of rage blood gs, shatters and solars.........though i only have 1 solar left in gears ...so maybe spending some brain before spending ur money is a better idea .......ijs.

    ok u can go back to runescape


    thank u very much
  • Unbrokenable - Lionheart
    Unbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    If your argument is "learn your class" you're basically just insulting the rest of us. Clearly, there's no way you can be wrong in any way, right? Telling someone they got to Lv80 without knowing anything about their class is stupid.

    - Accuracy was always a solvable problem, I had a hybrid chaos taunt build before I broke 500 accuracy but now it's very rarely an issue.

    - The diamond trees Force of the Land trumps Entrench. 20% attack > 30% defense, because defense scales like a cripple.

    - Taking out someone in a "few hits" is almost always too long. If the healer isn't otherwise preoccupied, we're talking at least 2s for each hit (that's if you didn't get interrupted at all, which more often than not isn't the case). If it takes 3 hits to kill someone, that's 4s for the priest to do something about it. With badges, Pray, and Light of Sanctuary, that basically means they aren't dying. That said, if your teammate or your racial stun is occupying the healer it can work. But many other classes are capable of dropping players without this assistance.

    - Yes you can deal with CC/mana drain to some extent. But you can only badge once every 1.5 minutes. Mana fountains don't always spawn, and the classes that mana drain also typically slow, meaning getting to a mana fountain is half the problem. The only real solution is popping rocky for the temporary immunity, but that's on a stupid long cooldown even for a marble.

    - Any PvPer with crit dodge will easily cancel out the crit chance of a protector. Unless you go granite, you only have your base crit chance. A couple twilights and arena gear means no crits for you.

    - I wish soaking up damage was my main issue. Extra survivability on marble wouldn't mean much.
  • thethibault
    thethibault Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    ^^ Look at what unbrokenable has been saying too. Hell ya i could take out any class in a few hits, my attacks did anywhere between 12k-25k dmg a hit (depending on rh and buffs). BUT three hits is like 8 seconds, and if that person doesnt get a heal in 8 seconds in an arena situation the team your facing SUCKS. A bard can wipe out about 30k mana on my server, if you have 30k mana as a prot it means you built azures and dont know what your doing. So now you have been drained to 0, you use a badge, OH NO the bard hit you once, back to 0 mana (oh by the way he attacks in 1 second to my 2s cast so there was really no chance of stopping this from happening because oh ya they are immune to stuns which is our only cc). So now you are forced to stand in a mana fountain for about 5-10s which is enough time for any sin/vamp/mage/war/bard to kill the entire rest of your team. So now YAY you have mana again but its 3v1, they have red hands, and you dont, GOOD LUCK.

    The point is the teams you are facing are not even on the same caliber as the teams we are facing on Lionheart. I know exactly how to play my protector its just the easiest class to counter in the game (ie any bard/priest/vamp/sin/mage).

    Oh and defense is the worst thing ever, it only counters base attack dmg without factoring in mastery or resistance, so ya it makes you good vs wars (which i have already noted)... also if anyone mentions disarm, you know that disarm is ONLY effective against warriors and marksmen right, the only 2 classes that DONT counter a prot.

    PLUS i have said that prot is pretty good against low-end pvp i said PAST 2400 is impossible, up to that prot is fairly decent because you are facing teams that are not very well structured and just plain arent that good. There is just no room for a prot on a team past that point. So if you accept being mediocre then play a prot, they are REALLY good at being mediocre, but you will NEVER be great.

    Oh and past the 2400 point region there is no such thing as a "squishy" they all have high eva AND high HP. The lowest hp you will face is like 35k, and thats on the people that have 450+ evasion, the people with less eva will have more like 50k+ hp, so a one-shot is completely out of the question unless you are at lvl 3 wings (with full attacks gems) and lvl 100 mastery.
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    If your argument is "learn your class" you're basically just insulting the rest of us. Clearly, there's no way you can be wrong in any way, right? Telling someone they got to Lv80 without knowing anything about their class is stupid.

    - Accuracy was always a solvable problem, I had a hybrid chaos taunt build before I broke 500 accuracy but now it's very rarely an issue.

    - The diamond trees Force of the Land trumps Entrench. 20% attack > 30% defense, because defense scales like a cripple.

    - Taking out someone in a "few hits" is almost always too long. If the healer isn't otherwise preoccupied, we're talking at least 2s for each hit (that's if you didn't get interrupted at all, which more often than not isn't the case). If it takes 3 hits to kill someone, that's 4s for the priest to do something about it. With badges, Pray, and Light of Sanctuary, that basically means they aren't dying. That said, if your teammate or your racial stun is occupying the healer it can work. But many other classes are capable of dropping players without this assistance.

    - Yes you can deal with CC/mana drain to some extent. But you can only badge once every 1.5 minutes. Mana fountains don't always spawn, and the classes that mana drain also typically slow, meaning getting to a mana fountain is half the problem. The only real solution is popping rocky for the temporary immunity, but that's on a stupid long cooldown even for a marble.

    - Any PvPer with crit dodge will easily cancel out the crit chance of a protector. Unless you go granite, you only have your base crit chance. A couple twilights and arena gear means no crits for you.

    - I wish soaking up damage was my main issue. Extra survivability on marble wouldn't mean much.

    With 1500 base defense it will scale well past 1800 almost 1900 (which is quite a bit of defense) and 30% of that towards your heavy hitters AND your retal aura makes quite the difference. A lot more of a difference than 20% to your attack. When it comes to taking out priests in the arena it's all about timing. The second that bubble goes down just stun them and take em out. If you are partied with good CC you should have no problem. A prot is a late bloomer in the arena and just needs a good CC DPS with them to help make up for that. (Burst if possible) As a marble prot you have badges AND soul of stone (which if you combine it with your speed buff only takes it down to 25% movement speed reduction) which also takes you out of stun and slows and silence. That tied with a badge is more than enough time. (Once again if you are in a good team you have burst damage with you). The both of you together should be able to take out any CC. You don't really need the crit chance on a prot considering they have high peak damage to begin with. If you are smart and got red hands early in the fight you don't need high crit damage. It's still a couple of hits till they are dead. Even if the person is geared out and has high HP you can still take them out and a few hits. Marbles can dish out enough damage to make them worth it.

    Sadly, with this 3x exp always on, there are a lot of noobs who got end game. -.-
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    ^^ Look at what unbrokenable has been saying too. Hell ya i could take out any class in a few hits, my attacks did anywhere between 12k-25k dmg a hit (depending on rh and buffs). BUT three hits is like 8 seconds, and if that person doesnt get a heal in 8 seconds in an arena situation the team your facing SUCKS. A bard can wipe out about 30k mana on my server, if you have 30k mana as a prot it means you built azures and dont know what your doing. So now you have been drained to 0, you use a badge, OH NO the bard hit you once, back to 0 mana (oh by the way he attacks in 1 second to my 2s cast so there was really no chance of stopping this from happening because oh ya they are immune to stuns which is our only cc). So now you are forced to stand in a mana fountain for about 5-10s which is enough time for any sin/vamp/mage/war/bard to kill the entire rest of your team. So now YAY you have mana again but its 3v1, they have red hands, and you dont, GOOD LUCK.

    The point is the teams you are facing are not even on the same caliber as the teams we are facing on Lionheart. I know exactly how to play my protector its just the easiest class to counter in the game (ie any bard/priest/vamp/sin/mage).

    Oh and defense is the worst thing ever, it only counters base attack dmg without factoring in mastery or resistance, so ya it makes you good vs wars (which i have already noted)... also if anyone mentions disarm, you know that disarm is ONLY effective against warriors and marksmen right, the only 2 classes that DONT counter a prot.

    PLUS i have said that prot is pretty good against low-end pvp i said PAST 2400 is impossible, up to that prot is fairly decent because you are facing teams that are not very well structured and just plain arent that good. There is just no room for a prot on a team past that point. So if you accept being mediocre then play a prot, they are REALLY good at being mediocre, but you will NEVER be great.

    Oh and past the 2400 point region there is no such thing as a "squishy" they all have high eva AND high HP. The lowest hp you will face is like 35k, and thats on the people that have 450+ evasion, the people with less eva will have more like 50k+ hp, so a one-shot is completely out of the question unless you are at lvl 3 wings (with full attacks gems) and lvl 100 mastery.

    Of first off Defense doesn't just go by itself. Defense only migates base damage which is only 1/3 of the fight in PvP. You need high defense to counter the base attack, high resist to counter the elemental attack, and high crit dodge/crit defense to counter the peak damage. Having all three balanced will migate most damage coming in. That tied along with 75 arena gear is more than enough to keep a prot up and easy to keep alive. The mana drain really isn't bad if you time your moves enough. I'm sorry but lionheart is that much better or more 'pro' than storm. We still have the same CS hungry people running around arena terrorizing everyone's life in it. Being with the right team to balance out what the prot lacks can solve a lot of those problems. My team for example is a divine priest, an eva based dark vamp, and me (attack based marble prot) and we almost never lose. They have 2.5k score and higher so i'm going around facing people with the same score. We still take down the heavy pvpers and csers through the arena by playing it smart. So either your server is as pro as you think and you just suck or maybe you need to re look at the way you play your prot or maybe give attack based marble a shot yourself. -.-
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • asfwersssf
    asfwersssf Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    With 1500 base defense it will scale well past 1800 almost 1900 (which is quite a bit of defense) and 30% of that towards your heavy hitters

    You are not reading entrench skill description right. It says 30% of your defense--not 30% of your MAX Defense. Entrench is 30x Blessing of the Stonemen. Cast BotS and see how much defense you get and multiple by 30. Yep I know the skill description makes it sounds too good. Another misleading prot skill, like rage of the mind, and crushing rage. They gave fire mages, Fire Knowledge, which increase fire spells by 3% of their MAX mana and those guys have like 50k+ max mana. I guess a cheap shot to marble protectors.