Prots .. useful?

sidmeyster
sidmeyster Posts: 14 Arc User
edited March 2012 in Protector Discussion
This has probably been done to death but here it goes again (I couldn't find specific posts after a few searches)

I play a lvl76 prot and the way the game as progressed and different classes have been given skills and masteries it is made prots completely redundant especially after lvl60.

If you are a marble prot you have good 'tanking' abilities i.e. aggro skills, but low atk which means you will NEVER be able to build fury against, say a winged Warrior with decent masteries - same goes for any other DD (AKA DPS) class. If you are granite, well you have made yourself redundant by having a lot of support options (auras) which you can use one at a time anyway. The only use I can see for this build is GvG's?!? As a diamond prot you can excel at PvP and Arena etc, stun-locks make you etc etc - and yes due to high damage one would think you will be favoured in instances ...

I have tried all three builds and a few other hybrid combinations but the bottom line is prots are not a favoured class after level 60.

So, I wonder if other classes such as Vamps and Sin's will be nerfed further down the line? or prots massaged such that they play a more active role?

Your thoughts please. I personally feel I have wasted time and effort (and money) building a character I mostly solo on.
Post edited by sidmeyster on

Comments

  • PugnusDei - Storm Legion
    PugnusDei - Storm Legion Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    PvP versus PvE. In PvE prots are very valued for taking down the world bosses for legend achievements, and for the bosses in the high level instances.
  • Johny_Brav - Nyos
    Johny_Brav - Nyos Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    that not exacly true. Game allovs classes like wr or vamps( sometimes even mages and other) to tank same effective as prots. When almost every class can go above 30k hp prots become just add on to party, not the main char next to priest. When you look at AS runs, many of them had been made without prot. That explains also why the prot population goes lower on higher lvl with each update. When you look at skills we are getting, from which many are bugged or weaker then descripion say and some inba against water base builds you will see me right.
  • rayminh
    rayminh Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    AS can also made without many other char except priest fyi, btw, Diamond prot tank well in AS.
    if you can make a vamp to 30+hp, you can also make a prot with 40+hp and decent mastery. It's all about how you invest on your char. i would say prot is a good tank without much efford to invest (but has low attack), same for vamp/sin/war are good dp without efford to invest (but will be squishy)
    it's all trade off in the end, like seriously, stop complaining about the game.
  • sidmeyster
    sidmeyster Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    like seriously, stop complaining about the game.
    who is complaining? stop trying to turn the post into something it is not. There is a word for people like you!

    The idea was to highlight the fact that a specific class was getting sidelined, and it is not something I randomly cooked up but a fact since other people playing the same class I have talked to seem to agree. I don't disagree with you, a prot can be made to have 40k+ hp but it is not about how much HP you have. If you mean simply having 'tanking' skills will make you a good prot, are you sure?

    FYI a diamond prot is not a tank per-se, it is a DD. Tanking by definition means being able to hold aggro/build fury while the rest of the party hacks through.

    Cheers.
  • Milrond - Eyrda
    Milrond - Eyrda Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Wow jesus. Where to start.

    Ok.

    Warriors have their place. offtank is their primary function.
    heres why

    Prots get more defense than most classes combined, we are the quintessential paladin, we are the stalwart rock, we DONT NEED BIG HP numbers because we dont really take that much damage even when main tanking.

    Warriors get half our defense. Warriors get twice the hp. They need it. Let them have it.

    Prot's are better for tanking because our health is worth more than a warriors.

    Warrior gets hit for 10,000 damage, that is hard to heal back for the healers.
    Prot gets hit with 5,000 damage, that is MUCH easier to heal, the weaker the healer, the more you need a protector.

    Prots have their time and place. We are defensive tanks. Not every tanking situation calls for a defense oriented tank. Sometimes all you need is an HP sponge.

    A prot with 20,000 health needs less healing during a full duration boss fight.
    A warrior needs more healing, but they have the MASSIVE health pool to tide them over.

    its all relevant.

    Personally i prefer the PROT tanks, and give me a warrior off tank.
  • Milrond - Eyrda
    Milrond - Eyrda Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    also a thought, if your guild has a MASSIVE warrior tank, maby you should role switch to support, go aura based and debuff spec from Granite and help HIM tank by being an off tank for him.

    prots have 3 separate trees for whatever the group calls for, this should be discussed with your guild leaders in order to find out who has the best gear for what instance.

    if you just solo play and get solo que's with instance groups and puggers, go marble hybrid with 10 points to get recovery aura talent from granite to make your mana go HOG WILD, because no sense in downtime if your only downing content that you can solo que for.

    all these need consideration, personally tanks are in short supply usually when a prot enters a group either guild or pug no matter what, thats usually our job
  • seetoo
    seetoo Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Prots don't actually protect (at least not until lv 60) anyone, so... anyway.

    Look at the specs.
    Whatever marble has to offer is for the prot himself. It has mass taunt, but it's a 6sec AoE taunt on a 2min cd. It's an "oh ****" button in case someone pulls a group off you. All you can "really" give to the group is the 5% (10% if talented) more healing from your recovery aura.

    Now if diamond could hold threat, I believe it would make a better AoE tank (IMHO). It has a relatively fast AoE with a 50% 1-3 sec (4-6 sec talented) stun. That's 1-6 sec of NO damage. And if you are willing to do away with the last 2 talent tiers you can either dip into
    - granite for ode of light
    or
    - marble for more threat
    or do away with the last 3 tiers for ode of light AND threat

    Granite is more pvp oriented since it deals with resistances and prevents healing so...

    @warrior vs prot
    What warriors lack in terms of tanking can be made up for with stuff outside your class.
    - Need more healing? pot
    - Still need more healing? regen food
    - Not enough def? pet buff
    - Not enough buffs? buff pots

    It's not like being a warrior means you only have the "warrior's tool kit" to tank. Do this and you get a tank with better dps.

    @compare to what other classes can do
    prots can prevent damage via stuns, slows, and taunting
    others have knock backs, slows, AND movement to prevent damage

    prots can AoE
    so can others

    So TS's concern is legitimate. Prot has nothing to offer past 60 that other classes can just as easily provide.
  • rayminh
    rayminh Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Unlike HP, def is scale down at much as it is. IMO the marginal damage reduce from def decline at around 1.5k def, therefore prot, who is famous for high def, is useless at high lvl. also high def only good dealing with lots of mobs but single mobs, hp is better imo.

    We need big amount of hp for, you know, RA because it's base on hp, also ABS can litterally recover 30% of your hp so high HP is still better. (every 75s tho)

    for AS, you dont need to tank any 20-30 mobs like in FP, so high HP take hit better than low hp.

    pretty sure the example 10k damage war vs 5k damage prot is the part that war is undergeared and prot is overgeared, also, a good priest can heal 16k-18k hp so it really doesnt matter
    FYI a diamond prot is not a tank per-se, it is a DD. Tanking by definition means being able to hold aggro/build fury while the rest of the party hacks through.

    Yes, im diamond, able to hold aggro with people at most similar gear except aegis warrior/other marble prots, which is pretty much a better tank or lvl 2 wing any dd class(my prot doesnt have wing) who is also able to tank well.
    Im holding aggro base solely on damage out put and mental focus on (metal focus originall already added threat without talent). It's also a dumb to use any fury while tanking for any talent spec, FoF is pretty much useless in pve for 110% sure.

    Yes, i was wrong, you did not complain anything just wonder why your prot is useless and desperate looking for answer if any other class can be de-power so your prot can do better. that's totally not complaining at all, like totally !
  • SinSkinner - Illyfue
    SinSkinner - Illyfue Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    imo, up to AS marble is kinda needed. Coz of shizload of mobs in instances and earth rift/mass taunt/upheaval. so that squishy aoe peeps dont die :D
    But in AS warr can easily tank based on pure outgoing dmg and high HP.
    Its easy to make good prot, few rages isnt hard to have, lvl 20 mastery also (2D~). And u have threat talents in marble tree.
    I got 3k attack, all IDs att/earth att, marble. Only problem r winged wars/sins (if built right). If I loose aggro (stun), one upheaval with max fury get it back. But if they get agro and keep it with huge attack, most likely they got huuuge hp anyway, and nothing u can do. Let them tank :)
  • ProtHead - Lionheart
    ProtHead - Lionheart Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Of Course Prots are Usefull... hm come to think of it, all classes have a value in different situations. I could think of a few examples but im not gonna insult your intelligence by saying something like "MM sure speed things up, but wasnt what secured to kill" or "The Prot held agro, and took very little damage, but the warrior could have as well".. some classes can multi task. Prot is not one of them, But still usefull.

    I was in a Welkin party without a priest. That does not make priests useless, just means we didnt need one, partially thanks to my epic tanking.. TY. The other way around as well, with good enough healing, anything can tank
  • sidmeyster
    sidmeyster Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Nice constructive discussion (I might have learnt a thing or two even .. thanks all). Having read your thoughts and read into the situation a bit more I think it is a matter of perception, and people increasingly tend to stick to what works and are not keen on experimenting (I thought that was one of the best thing about MMO's).

    About my build; switched to Diamond from pure Granite last week and will probably go marble again to make it easier for parties in AS. I am level 1 winged (going for level 2) with level 27 mastery on average (plan to max it all asap). I take pride in being a prot, it just saddens me people are being put off from rolling out this class ... :(
    with good enough healing, anything can tank

    Well said
  • SinSkinner - Illyfue
    SinSkinner - Illyfue Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    ^ as marble avoid light mast, imo earth is better. Coz 2 bigest aggro makiing skills r earth bsed, Upheaval and Earthen Penance
  • icauseriots
    icauseriots Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Ok, i have this argument all the time. Prots are one of the most OP classes in this game if played and geared right. You actually have to to go attack based if you want to go hold good aggro in this game with a prot. Even as marble. I am a 74 prot with a gem set up of rage, blood, and sol. I concentrate on earth attack, defense, and attack instead of pure hp and defense. Not only do I mess people up in PvP cause of all the attack and elemental attack, i can also keep aggro from every class in the game without a problem. I have 114 chroma and i hold aggro against people who have lvl 2 wings. The prots just need to played right in order for them to shine.

    Just because a class can take the damage from a boss doesn't mean that they have aggro control which is what makes a tank..well a tank! On top of high hp and defense, we have higher crit dodge, crit dmg reduction, damage reduction, we have a reflect that never goes off, AND can end game can reduce incoming damage to almost nothing. If you are a prot that can't hold your aggro or seemed to be pushed aside that means you suck. Switch to attack based marble and you'll what i mean. Prots are actually one of the best made classes in this game and if played should outshine any class when it comes to tanking.
    IGN:Fakie
    Guild:RAWR
    Class: Marble Protector

    Waiting for the world that is Forasken!

    RAWR!
  • Unbrokenable - Lionheart
    Unbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Ok, i have this argument all the time. Prots are one of the most OP classes in this game if played and geared right. You actually have to to go attack based if you want to go hold good aggro in this game with a prot. Even as marble. I am a 74 prot with a gem set up of rage, blood, and sol. I concentrate on earth attack, defense, and attack instead of pure hp and defense. Not only do I mess people up in PvP cause of all the attack and elemental attack, i can also keep aggro from every class in the game without a problem. I have 114 chroma and i hold aggro against people who have lvl 2 wings. The prots just need to played right in order for them to shine.

    A decently geared marble protector shouldn't ever lose aggro. I've actually been holding aggro fine when experimenting with a granite build, except against a select few people who completely outclass me in damage. I think with some mastery training I'd be fine even for them.



    PvP, eh. The damage output of protector skills is generally good, the problem lies in other things such as long cast times, cooldowns, and having Loyal Guardian as our only charge skill (as opposed to Assassin/Warrior who can both dash to an enemy).

    Protectors are very easy to abuse with slows, ensnares, mana drain, kiting, skill-interrupting, etc. which is IMO the main problem with protector PvP.
  • DeMRoNviL - Illyfue
    DeMRoNviL - Illyfue Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    sidmeyster wrote: »

    Your thoughts please. I personally feel I have wasted time and effort (and money) building a character I mostly solo on.

    i wanna talk sortly ; i feel same like you for my vampire :) .. i wasnt like prots when i play as vamp. then i create a protector and i cannot play with my other chars more than 5 min. anymore.. :)

    i dont think that there's an useless class in this game. but i see so many 'useless player's in game who dont use their character's skills - or bad timing- , dont know their characters made for what.. i saw so many vampire which didnt use flame curse( un. flames) even one time during a boss fight. using feast / being inferno bat - in wrong times , blood vamps which havent use talnet points on invigoration and/or use it only on self ect ect..
    it doesnt make vampire class useless. it s same for other classes; bad talents, bad gears, bad timing, auto attackers, wrong combos ect.. in a team game, roles change as party members. i see mages/mm play same -generally- when no melee in party or there r 2-3 melee.same positions, same skill combos.. but party is like an orchestra...
    real problem is using charcters.

    2-if you know and use your character good, dont think other things. because protector is like drummer of a rock band. if band plays bad in a show, it means bass , guitars, vocal are bad. not only drummer ;)
    other vampires kill
    Inferno rules !
  • StrykerJ - Lionheart
    StrykerJ - Lionheart Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    What people need to realize about protectors is that not every server is a PvP server. Playing in lionheart, i've always hated warriors attempting to tank, however powerful, because they CAN'T hold aggro against large mobs, my lame vampire steals aggro from most warriors. And really, I don't think even 10% of people playing are the ones that carefully build good raiding parties full of high chroma geared people. So a protector is VERY useful to that other 90%, who love marble prots and the huge amount of threat they create with halfway decent gear. And really, not as many people care about "endgame perfection" as you people seem to think. If anything it needs something to teach people how to play their classes properly. And honestly, I rarely ever see warriors geared up enough to take entire mobs away from even a protector in shard gear.


    So yes, Prots...Useful. Very useful.
  • darkshadow56
    darkshadow56 Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    OK so heres the deal i LOVE playing on my prot nd nothing pisses me off more is people QQing about how they are not doing that well in PvP and how wars are taking aggro off the tank (prots). my answer to u is LEARN TO PLAY A PROT. i never lose a aggro on a mob and i can murder a dark sin and a ele war any day of the week. You see im lv 70, not fully geared, and have like 2 gems. Granted i havent fought any winged opponents but i know that when i do i will still hold the same position regardless of the outcome.
    and the last thing i have to say is that
    PROTS ARE A THREAT if u know how to play them correctly
    Prot: I can take anything you dish out to me
    Sin: The shadows are my greatest weapon
    War: How do you like the taste of steel
    All in all I like hitting things
  • PEZ - Eyrda
    PEZ - Eyrda Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    OK so heres the deal i LOVE playing on my prot nd nothing pisses me off more is people QQing about how they are not doing that well in PvP and how wars are taking aggro off the tank (prots). my answer to u is LEARN TO PLAY A PROT. i never lose a aggro on a mob and i can murder a dark sin and a ele war any day of the week. You see im lv 70, not fully geared, and have like 2 gems. Granted i havent fought any winged opponents but i know that when i do i will still hold the same position regardless of the outcome.
    and the last thing i have to say is that
    PROTS ARE A THREAT if u know how to play them correctly

    Dark sins are PvE, so killing one doesn't make you good. Any kind of warrior will most likely lose to a protector, because we are their counter-class. If you're doing this with only 2 gems, I guarantee the people you are beating are complete and total scrubs. You aren't in a good position to comment on the state of prots in PvP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The servers are extended gutters and the gutters are full of nova packs and when the drains finally scab over, all the players will drown. The accumulated wealth of all their orb opening and +12 refining will foam up about their waists and all the noobs and elites will look up and shout "Thank you!"

    ... and I'll whisper "Rollback."
  • Unbrokenable - Lionheart
    Unbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    ^ I agree with what PEZ said, except I don't see Dark sins as PvE. Venom is more of the PvE tree. However Edge > Dark for PvP in most cases, Dark is mainly good for sneaking around.

    Back when 3v3 arena first opened my party kicked ****. It was a marble prot, a blood vamp, and a priest. These days anyone can agree that's a horrible party.

    It only worked because everyone else was bad, not because we were strong.
  • darkshadow56
    darkshadow56 Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Dark sins are PvE, so killing one doesn't make you good. Any kind of warrior will most likely lose to a protector, because we are their counter-class. If you're doing this with only 2 gems, I guarantee the people you are beating are complete and total scrubs. You aren't in a good position to comment on the state of prots in PvP.

    Ok so heres the deal. I saw tht a majority of the posts here were saying tht in either PvP or PvE wars are better and such. I know tht we counter wars but i said i eat them for breakfast to make a point tht we win in a fight. For ur scrubs comment, we all have fought scrubs. It happens because people suck and i want u to tell me tht u have never fought a scrub once in game. thts wht i thought. For the sin comment Unbrokenable is right dark is more of a sneak around class and edge is better for PvP but as soon as u mix it with edge u got a killing machine. But only a **** would think tht the dark tree is for PvE. The tree is all about evasion, increased atk when leaving invisibility and invisibility. well the evasion and atk work on mobs but invisibility doesnt so wht would be the point in using a tree tht is about invisibility hmmm?

    also may i point out my sig i play on all 3 of the classes mentioned so i know the details and im not just ranting about stuff i dont know
    Prot: I can take anything you dish out to me
    Sin: The shadows are my greatest weapon
    War: How do you like the taste of steel
    All in all I like hitting things
  • thethibault
    thethibault Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Ok, i really dont know why this is still in discussion, it has already been done to death in the other useless thread. Just to touch up on some of these arguments, darkshadow56, YES prots beat wars in a 1v1 any day. Hell no wings vs lvl 2 wings and if the prot is decent he will still win that fight. However, throw a healer on both sides and the war wins every time. Or play prot vs priest instead of war vs priest and really see which is harder to deal with for the priest (its the war, ask any priest). Wars do more dmg, have more hp, and attack faster this is just how the game works. The reason a prot is so good against a war is that the war relies on base attack dmg with low bonus dmg. Defense ONLY deducts from the base attack, so prot > war. However on all the other classes that dont have the base dmg reduction and defense that a prot has its much harder to deal with a war because of heavy sustained dmg. A priest just needs to slow, heal, kite (rinse and repeat) to deal with a prot. On the other hand they have no real way to deal with a geared out warrior thats doing 10k dmg every second (instead of 16-20k every 3 seconds from a geared prot).

    THAT is our point.

    Also stop with the nonsense about not knowing how to play your class. If you dont know about these different matchups it is you who does not know how the pvp in this game actually works.

    Keep in mind that prot is actually really fun and useful (not needed but useful) in PVE, so if that is what you like, play a prot they are tons of fun. If you plan on heavily investing into PvP, play a sin or vamp if you like to play offense or a priest or bard if you want to play defense/support.