Improvements to fire mage build

waxxxup
waxxxup Posts: 0 Arc User
edited February 2013 in Mage Discussion
Here is a totally endgame fire mage build:
http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcalc?cls=mage&r=hum&b=t1a15a25b15b22b33c12c24d14e22f12f26g23h12h22i13i22i33j13t2a23
I have a couple of concerns though:
At the end of the fire tree, there's a skill called "magic dispel", and it involves the skill Defense Discharge.
What kind of skill is Defense Discharge, couldn't find anything anywhere.
I would like critiques and suggestions for this build.

Also, my intention is to be the nuker that pops out of nowhere and suddenly kills a lot of people in PvP, especially Guild Wars. I wanna know if this will ever happen though, and if this build is viable enough to survive or not.

Edit: Made some improvements to my fire build:
http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcalc?cls=mage&r=hum&b=t1a15a25b15b22b33c12c21c34e22f12f26g23h22i13i33t2a14a23b11b22c33
Notice it is fire/lightning.

Accurate Revision Number 3:
Fire tree:
3 Fireball Explosion (3)
5 Force of Protection (8)
1 Fireball Energy (9)
3 Sinister Flame (12), nothing else to add except possibly Advanced Wind Drive
2 Flame Inspiration (14)
3 Flame of Fury (17), nothing else to add except possibly Advanced Wind Drive, another 1 point here because of nothing to add after maxing hasted flames.
4 Lingering Fire (21)
4 Advanced Flame of Fury (25)
1 Flame of Demons (26)
2 Call of Demons (28)
6 Fire Knowledge (34)
3 Fire Meditation (37) (How does mastery stack?, don't quite know the formulas, but maxed anyways since there's nothing else useful)
2 Fire Shield (39)
3 Reflex Mirror (42)
3 Hasted Flames (45)
3 Master of Heat (48)
Wtf does magic dispel do, is it worth it...???

Lightning tree:
4 Thunder Paralyze (4)
1 Lightning Fury (5), nothing else to add in
4 Shock Expansion (9)
1 Evil Protection EX (10)
Either:
3 Energy of Protection (13)
or
1 Thunder Penetration 2 Energy of Protection (13)
Post edited by waxxxup on

Comments

  • darkmarauder
    darkmarauder Posts: 762 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Well some of my opinions on it,
    1. Fire tree-advanced art of magic. . you dont need the 15min add, its not hard to recast it every 15mins (unless your a pve person)
    2. Lightning Tree-Magic Fountain. I suggest you get out your calculator, do some math on how much damage that actually adds and possibly re-evaluate.
    3. Lightning Tree- Theres not a lot of point putting 4 points in thunder paralyze, when you havent maxed shock expansion, sure 100% paralyze is nice for blowing ignition-but no its not going to work on many people without that range.
    4. The TBD skill, this skill is now written out ingame, not sure if you noticed that.
    5. Your going fire tree for aoeing, and didnt put points in flame of demons? Interesting. . .

    I dunno what lvl your at, but incase you dont know, the max lvl of the skill which the 'sinister flame' talent affects adds on 25-30 mastery.

    Theres a few other odd things, but im sure over a month of refining your decisions youd flatten them out.
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  • octarone
    octarone Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Well some of my opinions on it,
    1. Fire tree-advanced art of magic. . you dont need the 15min add, its not hard to recast it every 15mins (unless your a pve person)
    2. Lightning Tree-Magic Fountain. I suggest you get out your calculator, do some math on how much damage that actually adds and possibly re-evaluate.
    3. Lightning Tree- Theres not a lot of point putting 4 points in thunder paralyze, when you havent maxed shock expansion, sure 100% paralyze is nice for blowing ignition-but no its not going to work on many people without that range.
    4. The TBD skill, this skill is now written out ingame, not sure if you noticed that.
    5. Your going fire tree for aoeing, and didnt put points in flame of demons? Interesting. . .

    I dunno what lvl your at, but incase you dont know, the max lvl of the skill which the 'sinister flame' talent affects adds on 25-30 mastery.

    Theres a few other odd things, but im sure over a month of refining your decisions youd flatten them out.
    His build is pretty ok. I agree about Art of Magic, it's a total waste of talent points. Flame of Demons is bad endgame because it doesnt scale... at all.

    _______

    @OP: Overall I like your build, it's similar to mine sort of. Except that the game has different rules (talent calculator is wrong), for example you only need 3 points in Fireball Explosion and 1 point in Fireball Energy for Flame Inspiration.

    I like how you put points in talents that scale, which will be good endgame, and avoided most burning damage ones, or others that add constant damage. Also in advanced wind drive for extra flexibility (I also have transform 3/3).

    And lingering fire is mostly against 1 target anyway... making fire mages very good DPS even single target due to spammable fire spells AND fireball (all with lingering fire ofc). Shock Expansion still doesn't make it as big as Flame of Fury, and most of the time you need the AOE range provided by Rage of Demons -- which is far, far bigger than FoF (and consequently, thunderclap w/ talents).

    Also you did well by not placing points in Flame of Demons, because it's total trash endgame lol. Although you DO need 1 point in it for Call of Demons... ingame that is. (the talent calc is wrong, again).

    Overall your build is similar to mine.

    Also I don't know how good Vaporize is, but your cooldowns will be pretty low anyway, doubt a 30% chance to reset them is worth 3 talent points...
  • electricwater
    electricwater Posts: 268 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Hmmm Well, i'll repeat some things the above poster said xD i'll add some more info (and by info i mean opinions :D)...

    1- In Thunder Tree, only go for Thunder Paralyze... not that the rest is useless (well, magic fountain is...) but i think we can't waste too much points in lightning tree or we won't display our full fire power...

    2- Get out the points in Advanced Art of Magic and Sinister Flame... adv art of magic is... ridiculous... and i don't think sinister flame makes that much difference afterall... just my opinion ^^

    3- max Flame of Fury and Adv. FoF (adv. fof if you want...). Many people say this skill is useless but i really like it... at LV2 it does as much damage as Fire Ball (+-...)

    4- Take out the points in advanced wind drive... those are not 2 well-spent points...

    5- You need at least 1 point in Flame of Demons to get Call of Demons... So put 2 points in flame of demon... They should really update the talent calc -.-'

    6- only one point in Fire Meditation is enough, i think... and you should get the TBD talent, which requires 2 points to max and the description is the following:
    "Hasted Burning
    0/2
    Requires 35 points in the current tree
    Requires talent Fire Meditation to be rank 1
    During Magic Meditation, increases the mages burning damage by 100%(LV1)/200%(LV2) and reduces the burning effect duration by 20%(LV1)/40%(LV2)."
    at my talent calc i'll represent those two TBD points in Infuriated Mind, though you shouldn't acquire this talent... not at all. It's purely representative ^^

    7- Max Igniton Master, Fire Shield and Reflex Mirror... those are really good :)

    8- Max Master of Heat, another really good talent... for real... -450 def = *-*

    9- take out the points in vaporize... the cooldowns are already too low :p

    Now let me explain why i went all the way into burning talents...
    i don't know what's Fire Ball's max level, but let's consider that FB, in it's max level, burns 500 damage per second (which i think is low :p)
    after some tests, i found out that the burning damage only damages 30% of it's description in players (without wrath, ofc...) so, 30% out of 500, 150 (ya, i think this is rly low for maxed FB xD but whatever)...
    Now let's play an hypothetical situation...
    With ignition master, 20%+ burning damage = 180 damage per sec...
    With Hasted Burning (TBD skill) while in magic meditation, 360 damage per sec...
    and this x5 or 7 secs... 5secs = 1800, 7 secs = 2520
    and let's say u spam FB (4 times at the best situation), so if 5secs burn = 7200, if 7secs burn = 10080
    and all this burn damage trespasses any kind of defense buff... so doesn't matter how much defense or resistance the target has, the damage is not lowered... and this is PvP without wrath...
    i like burn :D
    have fun!
    Watter
  • waxxxup
    waxxxup Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Thank you very much for the suggestions, but I have recently noticed that the Talent Calculator is outdated, so here's my new build:

    I have optimized it so that it fits the actual game description.
    I really don't want to make you guys have to look and see my list over but i have no other choice.

    Here's the list of my skills:
    Fire tree:
    3 Fireball Explosion (3)
    5 Force of Protection (8)
    1 Fireball Energy (9)
    3 Sinister Flame (12), nothing else to add
    2 Flame Inspiration (14)
    1 Flame of Fury (15)
    4 Lingering Fire (19)
    4 Advanced Flame of Fury (23)
    1 Flame of Demons (24)
    2 Advanced Wind Drive (26)
    2 Call of Demons (28)
    6 Fire Knowledge (34)
    3 Fire Meditation (37) (How does mastery stack?, don't quite know the formulas, but maxed anyways since there's nothing else useful)
    2 Fire Shield (39)
    3 Reflex Mirror (42)
    3 Hasted Flames (45)
    3 Master of Heat (48)
    Wtf does magic dispel do, is it worth it...???

    Lightning tree:
    4 Thunder Paralyze (4)
    1 Lightning Fury (5), nothing else to add in
    4 Shock Expansion (9)
    1 Evil Protection EX (10)
    Either:
    3 Energy of Protection (13)
    or
    1 Thunder Penetration 2 Energy of Protection (13)

    Well, I hope you guys can understand what I said there and possibly make more improvements.

    Another note: electricwater, I have not ignored the potential of the DoT, but it still just seems impractical to use for me, as even if i'm decent with microing (League of legends and Starcraft 2 protoss player experience) and have Territory wars experience in PWI, people will usually try to run after they get nuked terribly by a mage (Whether it be Veigar, a high templar's psi storm, or the PWI wizard skill Black Ice Dragon Strike), so the fire ball spamming thing is impractical, and 2.5k damage in 7 sec is pathetic late game, so I prefer not to go the burning route. Still, thanks for the tips everyone.
  • electricwater
    electricwater Posts: 268 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    waxxxup wrote: »

    Another note: electricwater, I have not ignored the potential of the DoT, but it still just seems impractical to use for me, as even if i'm decent with microing (League of legends and Starcraft 2 protoss player experience) and have Territory wars experience in PWI, people will usually try to run after they get nuked terribly by a mage (Whether it be Veigar, a high templar's psi storm, or the PWI wizard skill Black Ice Dragon Strike), so the fire ball spamming thing is impractical, and 2.5k damage in 7 sec is pathetic late game, so I prefer not to go the burning route. Still, thanks for the tips everyone.

    hm, have you played the game yet...?
    if so, you see that mages will never, ever nuke... ever
    mages have relatively low damage... FW mage is not about big numbers popping once every 3/5 secs, it's about normal numbers popping every single second :p
    and mages in FW rarely stand much time in 1v1... mages are good pkers here, you know, good backstabbers... if you get the first hit, you'll controll a lot ^^ so i think that investing in burn is good... cause we're all DPS .-.
  • octarone
    octarone Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Burn doesn't refresh the stack, it just stacks separately, making it quite bad IMO. It's just some extra damage every hit. I mean sure may sound like a lot but fireball by itself does a lot more instant damage -- with 2 fireballs, you also get two instant big hits, not just burn stacks but hits too. Compared to those, it's pretty insignificant.

    And reflex mirror... why do you guys find that good? Mages don't stack evasion. Since it lasts only 5 seconds, and since YOU have to be hit to blind the attacker, I don't see it good in groups either -- he most likely will be hitting you.

    -450 def won't be that good considering you need to hit him 10 times with fire spell, and people will have like 7k attack by then ._.


    EDIT: On second thought, actually... someone should try evasion build mage with Reflex Mirror, it's gonna be damn epic.
  • waxxxup
    waxxxup Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    octarone wrote: »
    Burn doesn't refresh the stack, it just stacks separately, making it quite bad IMO. It's just some extra damage every hit. I mean sure may sound like a lot but fireball by itself does a lot more instant damage -- with 2 fireballs, you also get two instant big hits, not just burn stacks but hits too. Compared to those, it's pretty insignificant.

    And reflex mirror... why do you guys find that good? Mages don't stack evasion. Since it lasts only 5 seconds, and since YOU have to be hit to blind the attacker, I don't see it good in groups either -- he most likely will be hitting you.

    -450 def won't be that good considering you need to hit him 10 times with fire spell, and people will have like 7k attack by then ._.


    EDIT: On second thought, actually... someone should try evasion build mage with Reflex Mirror, it's gonna be damn epic.

    I just put reflex mirror because there was pretty much nothing else to add except Flame of Fury for bonus damage.
    I would really like to know how these things stack (Set constant, linearly, parabolically, exponentially?):
    Defense, masteries, and resistance.
    With the skill Master of Heat, I know it won't matter to me, but I believe it does matter to my allies when we're doing Guild Wars or something like that, that is if the effectiveness of Defense stacks in the way I think it does (Not linearly nor a set constant, but maybe either parabolically or exponentially).

    Can you also tell me if Magic Dispel is useful or not?
  • octarone
    octarone Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Regarding masteries, I think it's compounded... just an assumption, though, based on the fact that at low mastery levels (~250) adding 80 with meditation gives me about 8% more damage... but I know from mastery training quest that 1500 mastery means about 5x damage. (not just 1.5x)

    And I have no idea what Magic Dispel is, sorry. Must be a higher level skill, I'm only 54 atm :(
  • waxxxup
    waxxxup Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Hmm then... I'm not sure if I should even consider putting skill point in mastery thingies.
    Although..., i might need them just to advance on the tree.
    I'll optimize my build sometime later with less mastery points, i'm too tired today.
  • ursumtl
    ursumtl Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I don't think you're actually playing the game.
    Putting 3 points in mastery gave me about 400 dmg/hit on fireball.
  • waxxxup
    waxxxup Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ursumtl wrote: »
    I don't think you're actually playing the game.
    Putting 3 points in mastery gave me about 400 dmg/hit on fireball.

    No, I have not reached a high level at all. I am only level 24 mage, so the build I put was to make improvements by other players and the main intention was to be prepared for OBT by knowing exactly which talents I would put in.

    3 points in mastery, of what skill?
    Honestly, I wouldn't put into mastery skills, but i don't know any other talents to put in that are better for pvp.
  • ursumtl
    ursumtl Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    well, since is beta and u can afford to reset, do whatever u like.

    What I did first was to max out fireball (cooldown and mana cost).
    Then I reset and went 5/2/1 on fireball tree, and put 3/3 in fire mastery. The improvement in damage was significant. Now I went back to 5/2/2 on fireball so I can spam it. Pretty nice dps. Still playing and trying combo builds, it's free. Lvl up to 30 so you can get some new skills, then play around a biit. I mean 30 is not relevant , but at least you can get an indea of what does what and how you can benefit 1/2/3/4/5 points put into something.
    You won't have that luxury once the game goes live.
  • octarone
    octarone Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    waxxxup wrote: »
    Hmm then... I'm not sure if I should even consider putting skill point in mastery thingies.
    Although..., i might need them just to advance on the tree.
    I'll optimize my build sometime later with less mastery points, i'm too tired today.
    Masteries scale though, since they add a percent amount of damage.

    If you add 1k damage to your, say, 2k damage, you get 3k, which is 50% more. If you add 1k damage to your 10k, it's only 10% more, hardly as significant.

    But if masteries add, say, 30% more, then that's what you get overall. It would make you do 13k in the latter and 2.6k in former -- its significance is the same in both cases.

    Important is ratio of damage, not difference.
  • waxxxup
    waxxxup Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    octarone wrote: »
    Masteries scale though, since they add a percent amount of damage.

    If you add 1k damage to your, say, 2k damage, you get 3k, which is 50% more. If you add 1k damage to your 10k, it's only 10% more, hardly as significant.

    But if masteries add, say, 30% more, then that's what you get overall. It would make you do 13k in the latter and 2.6k in former -- its significance is the same in both cases.

    Important is ratio of damage, not difference.

    Well that's helpful, I guess masteries are worth it then (in my opinion).
    I'm guessing formula for percent damage is (100+ (Your Mastery - Enemy Resistance))%, right?
  • rvelz
    rvelz Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I am DeadDiablo level 75 fire mage. I have maxed fireball and burn. With my still low level fireball im doing 5k direct damage and 7k burn. If I can get 6 burns stacked on one target I am doing 2,400 damage per second for 14 seconds not counting my direct damage and not counting all my other spells. If you dont get this you are either very stubborn or bad at math. Goodluck. My magic meditation triples my burn effect and shortens it. With 6 burns stacked and magic meditation I am doing 7,200 damage per second not counting the direct damage and all other spells.
  • Stellatrix - Storm Legion
    Stellatrix - Storm Legion Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Nice builds ! ^.^
    [SIGPIC] <3 [/SIGPIC]
  • FeraeNaturae - Lionheart
    FeraeNaturae - Lionheart Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Just curious as to what any of you think I've read some bad responses to the Dot effect (burn effect) they dont stack which is stupid since when fighting an npc averaging your level you'll get at least 5 of them . THEY SHOULD STACK TO REDUCE HOW MANY DEBUFF ICONS ARE DISPLAYED DEVS COME ON ! ! !. but I did a little math and it seems to me that 5 "stacks" of the burn effect cause (on my toon atm) 320 dps now x 5 (1 for each "stack") equals 1600 no big deal but they just stay there and proc constantly so over 10 seconds in becomes 16000. maybe not a huge thing but it certainly seems a viable ability to have.

    let me know what you think.
    ~Daghdha~
  • BalthazarF - Shylia
    BalthazarF - Shylia Posts: 646 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    the burn effect is what make a fire mage really dangerous. with magic medidation and redhand, one single burn does 1800 damage. And it s not affected by resistance, or any kind of shield (except of course invulnerability shields). Considering that you can put a lot of burns cause fireball has a very low cooldown, good luck getting heal^^
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  • DeltaTroopa - Storm Legion
    DeltaTroopa - Storm Legion Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    the burn effect is what make a fire mage really dangerous. with magic medidation and redhand, one single burn does 1800 damage. And it s not affected by resistance, or any kind of shield (except of course invulnerability shields). Considering that you can put a lot of burns cause fireball has a very low cooldown, good luck getting heal^^

    You realize you're replying to a necro of a necro, and the original thread is 2 years old right?
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  • BalthazarF - Shylia
    BalthazarF - Shylia Posts: 646 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    do you realize that i just reply to the necro before me.And if he wanted to speak about burn effect, i actually dont really see the problem with using an old thread, speaking about it :p
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