Evasion is ****

PEZ - Eyrda
PEZ - Eyrda Posts: 466 Arc User
edited December 2012 in Suggestion Box
Evasion is just the ****** mechanic in the entire game when it comes to PvP. I rolled a Protector because I liked the idea of being tanky, but it turns out that evasion is the best mitigating stat in PvP. It's like a perpetual rocky. How so? Let me break down how evasion affects each aspect of mitigation in PvP.

Damage:
This one is obvious. Evasion prevents a player from being hit, which prevents damage from being taken. Evasion chance essentially scales with health/survivability. If you have a 75% chance to evade (not at all hard to believe for eva stackers), you pretty much have 75% more HP. If a warrior (high HP growth, let's say 30K after gear) stacks enough evasion for even 50% evasion, that adds (on average) 15K more for a 45K total health pool. An Assassin can to get well above 30K potential health when considering evasion, which puts them on the same level as Protectors, but with insane dps to boot.

Mana:
Missing an opponent uses mana, even though the attack doesn't land. It's bad enough that an evasion build can outlast many classes when it comes to health, but now they can outlast a player when it comes to mana. You can go through your entire mana pool without getting an evasion build player even close to death.

Status Effects:
A missed hit is a missed status effect. You can't stun, slow, DoT, silence, disarm, etc. on any attack that misses (as far as I know). An evasion build doesn't just grant more survivability as far as health, but also more survivability as far as time. Not stunning an evasion oppenent gives them time to stun you, widening the gap between the person in the lead and the person dying.

Criticals (debatable):
I have yet to see any test or evidence undeniably supporting whether or not critical hits bypass evasion. It's almost impossible to tell whether a crit lands because it passes evasion, or if it lands because it was calculated as a hit before it was calcualted as a crit. I can't make sweeping generalizations about this, but I can tell you from my own experience that critting a player with high evasion is much harder than critting a player with low evasion. This leads me to believe that evasion also doubles as crit dodge.

Orbs:
Orbs are by far the most important part of PvP. If you don't already know, you can't generate an orb with an attack that misses. Fighting against a player with an evasion build is a struggle just to maintain any wrath at all, much less out-orb-gather that player. Even if a miss could generate an orb (hell, let's make it instant red-hand), all the wrath in the world won't help you if you can never hit your opponent. So evasion doesn't just "mitigate" damage, it also mitigates wrath which compounds with the already high potential health aquired from evasion.



My Suggestion:
Each time an opponent evades your direct attack, a portion of your opponent's evasion (equal to a fraction of your accuracy) is deducted. Upon a successful hit, your opponents evasion is ser to it's original amount.

Example (5% deduction)-

You have 400 accuracy. Your opponent has 350 evasion.
You hit once and miss. 5% of your accuracy (20) is deducted from your opponents evasion.
You still have 400 accuracy. Your opponent now has 330 evasion.

You have 400 accuracy. Your opponent has 330 evasion.
You hit once and miss. 5% of your accuracy (20) is deducted from your opponents evasion.
You still have 400 accuracy. Your opponent now has 310 evasion.

You have 400 accuracy. Your opponent has 310 evasion.
You hit once and it is successful.
You still have 400 accuracy. Your opponent now has 350 evasion.


Spells that reduce accuracy will affect the deducted amount. Spells that reduce evasion will affect the deducted amount. 5% is probably too high, but I think the mechanic is solid. It's great because it allows players with evasion build to continue benefit from the extreme power of high evasion at it's best, just not for extended periods of time.

Evasion is the easiest stat to counter, just stack some damn accuracy.. seriously, every eva stackers have been complaining for ages about how easy it is to counter it, and indeed it is.

sigh..

You aren't thinking enough about what accuracy does. As I have shown, evasion counters many, many things in a PvP setting, at all times. Stacking evasion is beneficial when fighting against players with low accuracy, and it also (not as good, but still great) against players with high accuracy.

I used to have an accuracy build, so I can tell you from personal experiece, even with 475 accuracy, you can still miss frequently (more than 50%) against someone with fully stacked evasion. No, that's not just 50% less damage. It's 50% more mana used, 50% less stuns landed, 50% less orbs produced, 50% more time taken to kill this player, if I even can.

If fully stacked accuracy always beat fully stacked evasion, then great, but it doesn't. And even if it did, that's still an imbalanced solution. A player with fully stacked evasion NEVER has diminishing returns. Ever. There is no such thing as too much, or wasted evasion. Accuracy has extreme diminishing returns. At some point, you have accuracy you aren't using, because not everyone has an evasion build. What then? I'm expected to stack a stat that is useless against many players, but only partially beneficial against a few?
Post edited by PEZ - Eyrda on
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The servers are extended gutters and the gutters are full of nova packs and when the drains finally scab over, all the players will drown. The accumulated wealth of all their orb opening and +12 refining will foam up about their waists and all the noobs and elites will look up and shout "Thank you!"

... and I'll whisper "Rollback."

Comments

  • Ginius - Illyfue
    Ginius - Illyfue Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Evasion is the easiest stat to counter, just stack some damn accuracy.. seriously, every eva stackers have been complaining for ages about how easy it is to counter it, and indeed it is.

    sigh..
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  • Hers - Eyrda
    Hers - Eyrda Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Evasion is the easiest stat to counter, just stack some damn accuracy.. seriously, every eva stackers have been complaining for ages about how easy it is to counter it, and indeed it is.

    sigh..

    Pretty much, yup.

    Dont whine the game as broken because of a lack of accuracy on your part.
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  • ZephyrFalcon - Illyfue
    ZephyrFalcon - Illyfue Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Evasion is just the ****** mechanic in the entire game when it comes to PvP. I rolled a Protector because I liked the idea of being tanky, but it turns out that evasion is the best mitigating stat in PvP. It's like a perpetual rocky. How so? Let me break down how evasion affects each aspect of mitigation in PvP.

    Damage:
    This one is obvious. Evasion prevents a player from being hit, which prevents damage from being taken. Evasion chance essentially scales with health/survivability. If you have a 75% chance to evade (not at all hard to believe for eva stackers), you pretty much have 75% more HP. If a warrior (high HP growth, let's say 30K after gear) stacks enough evasion for even 50% evasion, that adds (on average) 15K more for a 45K total health pool. An Assassin can to get well above 30K potential health when considering evasion, which puts them on the same level as Protectors, but with insane dps to boot.

    Mana:
    Missing an opponent uses mana, even though the attack doesn't land. It's bad enough that an evasion build can outlast many classes when it comes to health, but now they can outlast a player when it comes to mana. You can go through your entire mana pool without getting an evasion build player even close to death.

    Status Effects:
    A missed hit is a missed status effect. You can't stun, slow, DoT, silence, disarm, etc. on any attack that misses (as far as I know). An evasion build doesn't just grant more survivability as far as health, but also more survivability as far as time. Not stunning an evasion oppenent gives them time to stun you, widening the gap between the person in the lead and the person dying.

    Criticals (debatable):
    I have yet to see any test or evidence undeniably supporting whether or not critical hits bypass evasion. It's almost impossible to tell whether a crit lands because it passes evasion, or if it lands because it was calculated as a hit before it was calcualted as a crit. I can't make sweeping generalizations about this, but I can tell you from my own experience that critting a player with high evasion is much harder than critting a player with low evasion. This leads me to believe that evasion also doubles as crit dodge.

    Orbs:
    Orbs are by far the most important part of PvP. If you don't already know, you can't generate an orb with an attack that misses. Fighting against a player with an evasion build is a struggle just to maintain any wrath at all, much less out-orb-gather that player. Even if a miss could generate an orb (hell, let's make it instant red-hand), all the wrath in the world won't help you if you can never hit your opponent. So evasion doesn't just "mitigate" damage, it also mitigates wrath which compounds with the already high potential health aquired from evasion.



    My Suggestion:
    Each time an opponent evades your direct attack, a portion of your opponent's evasion (equal to a fraction of your accuracy) is deducted. Upon a successful hit, your opponents evasion is ser to it's original amount.

    Example (5% deduction)-

    You have 400 accuracy. Your opponent has 350 evasion.
    You hit once and miss. 5% of your accuracy (20) is deducted from your opponents evasion.
    You still have 400 accuracy. Your opponent now has 330 evasion.

    You have 400 accuracy. Your opponent has 330 evasion.
    You hit once and miss. 5% of your accuracy (20) is deducted from your opponents evasion.
    You still have 400 accuracy. Your opponent now has 310 evasion.

    You have 400 accuracy. Your opponent has 310 evasion.
    You hit once and it is successful.
    You still have 400 accuracy. Your opponent now has 350 evasion.


    Spells that reduce accuracy will affect the deducted amount. Spells that reduce evasion will affect the deducted amount. 5% is probably too high, but I think the mechanic is solid. It's great because it allows players with evasion build to continue benefit from the extreme power of high evasion at it's best, just not for extended periods of time.
    Evasion is not ****.People have to work hard to farm their own gems and make their build.For e.g. take a class which has high evasion usually i.e. sin.I know from experience lvling up a sin is extremely difficult.We cant tank,many a-times kicked from parties and have no aoes,so basically we suck at hard at PvE generally.In the same way other classes too have their pros and cons.Thus evading classes like sin are better at pvp as they suck at pve.For countering such stats,which here is evasion, u can do mastery training accordingly and alter the gems in your gear.If sins didnt have evasion and high dmg they'd be nothing and be totally UnderPowered.For where we suck at PvE ,we just make up in Pvp. There
  • Godless - Eyrda
    Godless - Eyrda Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Evasion is not ****.People have to work hard to farm their own gems and make their build.For e.g. take a class which has high evasion usually i.e. sin.I know from experience lvling up a sin is extremely difficult.We cant tank,many a-times kicked from parties and have no aoes,so basically we suck at hard at PvE generally.In the same way other classes too have their pros and cons.Thus evading classes like sin are better at pvp as they suck at pve.For countering such stats,which here is evasion, u can do mastery training accordingly and alter the gems in your gear.If sins didnt have evasion and high dmg they'd be nothing and be totally UnderPowered.For where we suck at PvE ,we just make up in Pvp. There

    yeah bro. i'm sure those sins and vamps with level 3 wings farmed the gems.
    Power is the ultimate goal for every Vampire, although how i obtain mine more legitimate than others. rigorous training, hundreds of trophies, and mastery of the magicks of pain.
  • PEZ - Eyrda
    PEZ - Eyrda Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Evasion is the easiest stat to counter, just stack some damn accuracy.. seriously, every eva stackers have been complaining for ages about how easy it is to counter it, and indeed it is.

    sigh..

    You aren't thinking enough about what accuracy does. As I have shown, evasion counters many, many things in a PvP setting, at all times. Stacking evasion is beneficial when fighting against players with low accuracy, and it also (not as good, but still great) against players with high accuracy.

    I used to have an accuracy build, so I can tell you from personal experiece, even with 475 accuracy, you can still miss frequently (more than 50%) against someone with fully stacked evasion. No, that's not just 50% less damage. It's 50% more mana used, 50% less stuns landed, 50% less orbs produced, 50% more time taken to kill this player, if I even can.

    If fully stacked accuracy always beat fully stacked evasion, then great; but it doesn't. And even if it did, that's still an imbalanced solution. A player with fully stacked evasion NEVER has diminishing returns. Ever. There is no such thing as too much, or wasted evasion. Accuracy has extreme diminishing returns. At some point, you have accuracy you aren't using, because not everyone has an evasion build. What then? I'm expected to stack a stat that is useless against many players, but only partially beneficial against a few?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The servers are extended gutters and the gutters are full of nova packs and when the drains finally scab over, all the players will drown. The accumulated wealth of all their orb opening and +12 refining will foam up about their waists and all the noobs and elites will look up and shout "Thank you!"

    ... and I'll whisper "Rollback."
  • Godless - Eyrda
    Godless - Eyrda Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    You aren't thinking enough about what accuracy does. As I have shown, evasion counters many, many things in a PvP setting, at all times. Stacking evasion is beneficial when fighting against players with low accuracy, and it also (not as good, but still great) against players with high accuracy.

    I used to have an accuracy build, so I can tell you from personal experiece, even with 475 accuracy, you can still miss frequently (more than 50%) against someone with fully stacked evasion. No, that's not just 50% less damage. It's 50% more mana used, 50% less stuns landed, 50% less orbs produced, 50% more time taken to kill this player, if I even can.

    If fully stacked accuracy always beat fully stacked evasion, then great; but it doesn't. And even if it did, that's still an imbalanced solution. A player with fully stacked evasion NEVER has diminishing returns. Ever. There is no such thing as too much, or wasted evasion. Accuracy has extreme diminishing returns. At some point, you have accuracy you aren't using, because not everyone has an evasion build. What then? I'm expected to stack a stat that is useless against many players, but only partially beneficial against a few?

    precise stout with accuracy id's kgo.
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  • Yarilo - Eyrda
    Yarilo - Eyrda Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    At some point, you have accuracy you aren't using, because not everyone has an evasion build. What then? I'm expected to stack a stat that is useless against many players, but only partially beneficial against a few?

    The same applies back to that... not everyone is accuracy build so sometimes you have more than enough eva and you'd kill better if that eva was put into something else :P
  • PEZ - Eyrda
    PEZ - Eyrda Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    The same applies back to that... not everyone is accuracy build so sometimes you have more than enough eva and you'd kill better if that eva was put into something else :P

    You missed the point. You could put ragefires, but do you have to? With high enough evasion, all you need is time to make any kill. You're pretty much invincible. It never hurts to put more. It doesn't necessarily help, but it's never a waste.

    The same doesn't apply to accuracy. Stack all you want and you'll still miss often. Stack too much and it does absolutely nothing. My point is that evasion continues to maintain it's power the higher you go. Accuracy doesn't maintain what little power it has.

    You have more accuracy than you need for a kill? Worst case you don't have enough dps to kill a player through their heals. Or you don't have enough survivability to outlast their dps.

    You have more evasion than you need for a kill? Worst case you never take a hit and your biggest concern is chasing them down as they flee?

    Really, really, be honest, which is worse?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The servers are extended gutters and the gutters are full of nova packs and when the drains finally scab over, all the players will drown. The accumulated wealth of all their orb opening and +12 refining will foam up about their waists and all the noobs and elites will look up and shout "Thank you!"

    ... and I'll whisper "Rollback."
  • isolatedpurity
    isolatedpurity Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Hi. I stack the hell out of evasion. People with a bit of accuracy can hit me, some almost 100% of the time. Evasion is not as good as you think it is. Just because you didn't build to counter it doesn't mean it's god like, it just means you aren't suited to fight evasion classes. And there's absolutely no problem with that, it's your choice, you just have to live with it.
  • Ginius - Illyfue
    Ginius - Illyfue Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    You aren't thinking enough about what accuracy does. As I have shown, evasion counters many, many things in a PvP setting, at all times. Stacking evasion is beneficial when fighting against players with low accuracy, and it also (not as good, but still great) against players with high accuracy.

    I used to have an accuracy build, so I can tell you from personal experiece, even with 475 accuracy, you can still miss frequently (more than 50%) against someone with fully stacked evasion. No, that's not just 50% less damage. It's 50% more mana used, 50% less stuns landed, 50% less orbs produced, 50% more time taken to kill this player, if I even can.

    If fully stacked accuracy always beat fully stacked evasion, then great; but it doesn't. And even if it did, that's still an imbalanced solution. A player with fully stacked evasion NEVER has diminishing returns. Ever. There is no such thing as too much, or wasted evasion. Accuracy has extreme diminishing returns. At some point, you have accuracy you aren't using, because not everyone has an evasion build. What then? I'm expected to stack a stat that is useless against many players, but only partially beneficial against a few?

    I'm sorry for you, but I with 420 base accu, and some eva debuff, I have absolutely no issue hitting eva stackers.(used to have more but with 95 eva debuff, it's plenty enough)
    When people stack a really high eva, they have to give up on a lot of other stats, hp, attack and such, and even if you really hit 50% of the time with 475 base accu (or is it with buff, in that case it's not enough for a someone without eva debuff), with a few orbs, MMs are pretty easy to get.
    Other than that, I hope you re not trying to hit a sin under swift eva, or under weakening cloud, or an eva target if a vamp debuff your accuracy by 60.

    Well we might not have ppl stacking as much eva as on Eyrda, but we still do have plenty of players above 350 eva, and this is perfectly fine for me.

    By the way, almost ever lvl 75 set gives a 40 accu bonus, you can look for that if you find it so annoying.
    Even if I do agree, that accu is only usefull vs eva stackers whereas eva is usefull vs everyone, even in pve, this is still easy to counter without f*cking up your whole build.
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  • PEZ - Eyrda
    PEZ - Eyrda Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Other than that, I hope you re not trying to hit a sin under swift eva, or under weakening cloud, or an eva target if a vamp debuff your accuracy by 60.

    Well we might not have ppl stacking as much eva as on Eyrda, but we still do have plenty of players above 350 eva, and this is perfectly fine for me.

    By the way, almost ever lvl 75 set gives a 40 accu bonus, you can look for that if you find it so annoying.

    Even if I do agree, that accu is only usefull vs eva stackers whereas eva is usefull vs everyone, even in pve, this is still easy to counter without f*cking up your whole build.


    Let me do some math. I used to have 475 base accuracy. I had double accuracy id on every gear, and 4 level 2 accuracy gems. (Why not level 3? Because gems are practically permanent. You outgrow your gear, but you keep your gems as you level, and I wasn't ready to spend diamonds just to get level 3 accuracy gems, for a grand total of 12 more accuracy between 4 gems. . ., but that's a different story). Anyways, base accuracy was 475, and being a prot, I have spells that provide additional accuracy. Force of fury, my main stun and most important skill was missing with a +60 accuracy bonus, which is calculated at 535 accuracy. Nevermind debuffs and such, because that's out of my control. How much accuracy do I need to stack before I can reliably hit my most important skill?

    Sure, I've been up against swift evasion, or vampire accuracy debuffs, but that's exactly why I stacked accuracy. What else can I do? You can't run from a vamp, because charmed strike will kill you. And you can't run from a sin in swift evasion, because this game is **** and you rubberband when you get silenced from a sin. In some cases, when you and one opponent are left, the only option you have is to fight. And who wouldn't when you have redhand? I wish I had fraps so I could show you just how **** it is to be on the opposing side of an evasion build.

    I get the feeling you only notice when you get hit, and not so much when you evade, which makes you forget how powerful evasion is. And as for the +40 accuracy bonus on the 75 set, don't even joke. That's such ****. The set itself is bad, but that accuracy bonus in particular is terrible. That's only 5.7 accuracy per gear (before id), when you can get 6-8 accuracy per gear (before id) that isn't a set peice.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The servers are extended gutters and the gutters are full of nova packs and when the drains finally scab over, all the players will drown. The accumulated wealth of all their orb opening and +12 refining will foam up about their waists and all the noobs and elites will look up and shout "Thank you!"

    ... and I'll whisper "Rollback."
  • Luciferia - Illyfue
    Luciferia - Illyfue Posts: 3,982 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I've been up against evasion builds in the past. I have less than 300 accuracy, no skills or talents to increase it or reduce eva, and still the worst I was doing was about 30-35% accuracy against eva builds... which is awful, but remember, less than 300 accuracy. How can you miss half the time with 475 accuracy + buffs is honestly beyond my understanding...
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  • Trogotha - Storm Legion
    Trogotha - Storm Legion Posts: 662 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Best guess as has already been mentioned, he was probably under an acc debuff like Weakening Cloud which has enough talent point options as to make it very nasty in pvp. Although said skill will at most have a 240s cd so once per pvp match.

    Could also be facing opponents with eva buffs like Quick Action.

    I can't speak for other classes, but as a mm, eva is usually the prime stat for a pvp build since our gear tends to not be able to stack enough def / hp unless we use gem slots or are masochists and do arena from the get go for the arena gear.
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  • PEZ - Eyrda
    PEZ - Eyrda Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I've been up against evasion builds in the past. I have less than 300 accuracy, no skills or talents to increase it or reduce eva, and still the worst I was doing was about 30-35% accuracy against eva builds... which is awful, but remember, less than 300 accuracy. How can you miss half the time with 475 accuracy + buffs is honestly beyond my understanding...

    Becuse accuracy is essentially terrible. It's a one way street. From what I have read here on the forums, you need 1.25-1.5 accuracy to counter 1 point of evasion. A mistshroud 4 gives 13 evasion. That means you need 16.25 to 19.5 accuracy just to break even. An eagle-eye 4 gives 20 accuracy, but who the **** want's an eagle-eye 4? Against evasion builds it breaks even . Against non-evasion-builds it is totally useless, because it's complete overkill.

    I'm not surprised you don't understand my situation. Eyrda is the oldest PvP server with some heavy cash shoppers. Illyfue is PvE. People on Eyrda have had the time and the money to extort evasion as much as possible. Sins will literally get as much evasion as they possibly can: double evasion id on all gears, mistshroud 3s and 4s, pet evasion buffs. And then some vamp on their team debuffs your accuracy. It's game over.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The servers are extended gutters and the gutters are full of nova packs and when the drains finally scab over, all the players will drown. The accumulated wealth of all their orb opening and +12 refining will foam up about their waists and all the noobs and elites will look up and shout "Thank you!"

    ... and I'll whisper "Rollback."
  • Balanced - Illyfue
    Balanced - Illyfue Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Ok peeps, as an eva sser i must say you ppl QQ'ing about eve being OP oviously never made eva class xD
    Eva is hard as ** to get as ID's, and got nerfed badly in comparison to Acc.
    Evasion doesn't work very good when ppl can 1 hit you, and by 1 hitting u can read lvl3 winged ppl that hit 60k dmg per hit :|
    Only way eva build works is if u class has acc debuff and/or eva buffs.
    In my experience there's no way my build woould work without my eva buffs.
    I'm a Bard, not a sin as u might think.
    I have around 430 eva buffed and can boost myself to 490 eva for 15 secs when i use my sleep.
    That is the only way i can efficiently counter ppl like Ginius in Illy server^^ he has nice acc and ice debuff, though he missed aroiund 70% of the time when i sleep.
    Though that's for 15 secs as u can see eva is not that good. Only way to get profit out of it is by stacking it really really hard, that means no mastery or attack or acc ID's, only eva, and no acc+health items... only eva...
  • Faust - Eyrda
    Faust - Eyrda Posts: 922 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pretty much, yup.

    Dont whine the game as broken because of a lack of accuracy on your part.

    don't prots even get skills to actively increase their accuracy?
    i've got 507 accuracy as a freaking vamp...i can't imagine how much prots who know what they're doing have
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  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    You know what's more **** than evasion? Necro.

    But the thread is funny. For PEZ, just imagine the opponents stacking evasion are super pro (or using a bot) at dodging your attacks in TERA don't be mad. :rolleyes:
  • Queen_Eli - Illyfue
    Queen_Eli - Illyfue Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    evasion is hidden god mode . get rid of it .
  • nrliev
    nrliev Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    don't prots even get skills to actively increase their accuracy?
    i've got 507 accuracy as a freaking vamp...i can't imagine how much prots who know what they're doing have

    507? With or without 4/3 on Eyes of Darkness?

    I hope for your sake that's without D:
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  • Ginius - Illyfue
    Ginius - Illyfue Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Ok peeps, as an eva sser i must say you ppl QQ'ing about eve being OP oviously never made eva class xD
    Eva is hard as ** to get as ID's, and got nerfed badly in comparison to Acc.
    Evasion doesn't work very good when ppl can 1 hit you, and by 1 hitting u can read lvl3 winged ppl that hit 60k dmg per hit :|
    Only way eva build works is if u class has acc debuff and/or eva buffs.
    In my experience there's no way my build woould work without my eva buffs.
    I'm a Bard, not a sin as u might think.
    I have around 430 eva buffed and can boost myself to 490 eva for 15 secs when i use my sleep.
    That is the only way i can efficiently counter ppl like Ginius in Illy server^^ he has nice acc and ice debuff, though he missed aroiund 70% of the time when i sleep.
    Though that's for 15 secs as u can see eva is not that good. Only way to get profit out of it is by stacking it really really hard, that means no mastery or attack or acc ID's, only eva, and no acc+health items... only eva...

    Btw the last time I fought you I had 499 accu without buff, but I jumped to 542 accu without buff now :p (so around 580 buffed in arena ^^)

    Oh and if I ever manage to get my helm +12, I ll get 20 more :D (but it s not gonna happen soon :()
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  • asd29
    asd29 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    As a soul mm (we have the nastiest acc debuff but not spammable) and former eva stacker It's not as great as it's being made out to be. I got up to 360 base and this is with all precise/warded agile gear with at least 10 eva on each piece with 4 mist 4's. This was terribly expensive and time consuming. But i had terrible hp at 24khp.

    What has not been taken into account is a lot of skills have increased accuracy. I don't have a very high level sin alt but quite a few talents are +acc. Eart rift for diamond prots is +60 acc. Acc is very very very easy to get up for most classes. I think honestly the hardest class to get acc up for is Blood warriors, because they simply need acc and don't have any eva debuff. Hell the blue arena rings are quite easy to get and instantly +16 acc. Getting evasion I'ds on rings is rare and expensive. There are also a lot of things eva is not going to bail you out of - Blade of reflection, retaliation aura, Feast to name a few. Even Ice Mages will connect with their AoE.

    There are much more spammable and numerous evasion debuffs. Hunters Mark (mm) is -71 eva. Roar is -95. Sins I'm pretty sure also have an eva debuff. There's only a few classes that's really worth while for eva and those are the ones with a consistent acc debuff and that's dark vamps with Expansion of Darkness talent making your acc awful and light bards. But as eva builds tend to have less hp then they lose in other aspects - Feast is not as devasting for example as it's based on max hp. For bards(i assume) and for mm they get hit and it's a lot more devastating.

    Like it or not acc is necessary in any form of pvp. Not every class is going to have uber HP bases on their gear. They have to have a viable countermeasure and for most squishy classes it's evasion.

    I'm not op or super awesome at arena but i wouldn't say i'm terrible either. I'm on arena set now and I'll be honest this season has been far easier for me than when i was eva and that's with 38khp so while I have good HP for a mm it's nowhere near the high hp values wars or prots get. The only difference in gear apart from level (75-77 warded/precise agile vs 75 arena blues+Precise/Stalwart ToK hands and feet) is i finally +12 my boots and have 3 more BS4's instead of all bs3's.
    As a level 80MM my advice for anyone wanting to be a MM - fun class to play. But it's not a button mash class. Be prepared for some frustration
  • MyzarePixy - Illyfue
    MyzarePixy - Illyfue Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    If you find difficulty hitting evasion opponents - get more acc id+gems. There's your solution and pls stop QQ in forums about this ffs. Eva build is as easy to get as acc build. :)
  • Ginius - Illyfue
    Ginius - Illyfue Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    If you find difficulty hitting evasion opponents - get more acc id+gems. There's your solution and pls stop QQ in forums about this ffs. Eva build is as easy to get as acc build. :)

    Besides the necro (:p), eva build is efficient in every situation, only countered by accu build whereas accu build is utterly useless in every situation except vs eva build.
    I used to have 600+ base accuracy but reverted to 570+ (still 600+ buffed in arena tho), to get more crit damages.

    However the eva opponents are not numerous on Illyfue server, therefore plenty of people reach high score with low accuracy, and gave up on winning vs eva build when they get to fight them or pray for a lucky crit ^^.

    Not saying one is OP or one is expensive or such, it's just a matter of choice and balance for your own build :)

    And while I'm at it, roar is not 95 eva debuff but half of it, the 95 eva you heard of is a combo of roar+bloodsoak if you've put at least 4 points in the specific talent ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Signature by Baby.
    Level 90 since august 2014

    - Elemental Warrior 90
    - Ice Mage 90
    - Blood Raider 87
    - Divine Priest 85
    - Water Bard 83
    - Precision MM 80
    - Demon? I hope soon xD
  • zephiross
    zephiross Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    I made an evaison vamp.. took a hell of a long time.
    Works well but its also a chance thing.
    if someone with high accuracy or somone with high damage manages to hit.
    it deals so much more damage as ive got more in accuracy and less in defence and health.
    Still accuracy is better for pvp ill admit.
  • Aishleen - Eyrda
    Aishleen - Eyrda Posts: 2,005 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Nice necro.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • deadeyejoe651
    deadeyejoe651 Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Im a lvl 77 eva vamp, and yes my eva helps me avoid some hits. But with all of this talk about percentages, less than 50%, less than 30%, that number is never 0. As an eva build, I sacrifice my attack power, defence, accuracy, hp, mp, crit defence, on the chance you dont hit me. In the course of a fight, we each might throw 100 shots, and if I hit you 75% of the time I probably wont kill you, but if you hit me 10% I'm probably toast. Evasion may extend the fight because you cant hit me, but the longer it goes on, the more chances you have to kill me in one shot.
  • Monotonous - Storm Legion
    Monotonous - Storm Legion Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    i'm gonna go eva since others are expensive
  • goodmorningm8
    goodmorningm8 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I hate this stupid ID-able gear ********, and most of all i hate stupid eva-stacking noobs, i only have 524 something accuracy without buff :mad:

    Atleast make the gear unbound. :mad:
  • meditwow
    meditwow Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Sounds a bit desperate...
    :confused:
  • miciociccio
    miciociccio Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Let me do some math. I used to have 475 base accuracy. I had double accuracy id on every gear, and 4 level 2 accuracy gems. (Why not level 3? Because gems are practically permanent. You outgrow your gear, but you keep your gems as you level, and I wasn't ready to spend diamonds just to get level 3 accuracy gems, for a grand total of 12 more accuracy between 4 gems. . ., but that's a different story). Anyways, base accuracy was 475, and being a prot, I have spells that provide additional accuracy. Force of fury, my main stun and most important skill was missing with a +60 accuracy bonus, which is calculated at 535 accuracy. Nevermind debuffs and such, because that's out of my control. How much accuracy do I need to stack before I can reliably hit my most important skill?

    Sure, I've been up against swift evasion, or vampire accuracy debuffs, but that's exactly why I stacked accuracy. What else can I do? You can't run from a vamp, because charmed strike will kill you. And you can't run from a sin in swift evasion, because this game is **** and you rubberband when you get silenced from a sin. In some cases, when you and one opponent are left, the only option you have is to fight. And who wouldn't when you have redhand? I wish I had fraps so I could show you just how **** it is to be on the opposing side of an evasion build.

    I get the feeling you only notice when you get hit, and not so much when you evade, which makes you forget how powerful evasion is. And as for the +40 accuracy bonus on the 75 set, don't even joke. That's such ****. The set itself is bad, but that accuracy bonus in particular is terrible. That's only 5.7 accuracy per gear (before id), when you can get 6-8 accuracy per gear (before id) that isn't a set peice.

    Hi

    Sorry but you're quite wrong about the set, i am a prot too and got 3 pieces of the set, chest and legs that got as adds 36def 722 hp (plus base def is very high) and the belt, that ok, got mana as second add but +77 attack as first and pretty good base hp aswell, those 3 are enough for the +40 accu so it make 13,3 accu each part.

    Atm i got around 610 accu (with the op fish soup) without precision 3 and got no problems at all against same gear/gem lvl eva chars (ppls with 450 eva or so i mean)and still got a pretty nice attack/crit chance/crit damage.

    Only thing i find stupid about eva is that always work nm in which condition is the character, is supposed to be your agility to jump up and down/left and right and actually "evade" hits no?
    S
    o i wish to know how much agile is someone when stunned, paralized or frozen in a ice cube.... lol

    And yes, eva stackers also got so **** def/hp that often are like 2/3 hits.

    Am talking about 12v12 and gvg though, if in arena eva work better dunno, not into that stupid thing :P

    Later and hf

    FatPris