Highly frustrated mm.

Ghundam - Eyrda
Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
edited November 2011 in General Discussion
Why is this class ranged? Sin goes stealth walks to you, range = useless. Hunters Mark useless because of a stealth that has 0 drawbacks. Throw in the teleport stuns and ranged stuns etc. As a sin, no mm can beat me, as a warrior same thing, have not played my prot much. Furthermore the ice mage and dark vamp make any mm talent tree look like pure bs.

I am asking whoever it is that can make a difference to please either pm me and tell me what I am doing wrong (other than cash shop heavily) or go let the developers know that somehow they messed up where mms are concerned. Right now this class is underpowered. It has nothing to do with damage. MM damage is greaaaaat. It has to do with ccs and survivability. This class plain sucks for survival. Every other class has valid means of surviving except mms. Being an uber master of range would have been the answer except every melee class can counter the range eaaaaaaaasily.

This a qq. I'm not dressing it up. But look around and see that very very few mms exist in this game. That should be an indicator as to how badly balanced this class is. I came from PWI where you buffed the be,.....,,,. out of assassins. Now I come here and its the same bs all over again. Between Edge sins and Dark vamps seems to have received generous amounts of thought wrt pvp. Clearly not even a smidgen of that thought went into any mm line at all. I really wish I knew the developers language so I could qq to them instead of here because If I learned anything from PwI its that very little in the way of user feedback is taken up with any haste.

Glad to have gotten that of my chest. Compared to any other class I have ever played mms in FW take the cake when it comes to being bottom tier.
Post edited by Ghundam - Eyrda on
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Comments

  • Jigglypuff - Eyrda
    Jigglypuff - Eyrda Posts: 605 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    yes mm is useless thats why in every pvp situation you kill the mm first since he cant do anything
  • WerePetar - Illyfue
    WerePetar - Illyfue Posts: 221 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    yea mm is my first target in arena and they cant slow or silince or stun so cant do much only run fast mm is bad class to be here hard to farm gold whit them ,hard to get arena score.. u can tray eva build mm got some acc debufs so should be good for eva build i think, sry for bad eng
  • PugnusDei - Storm Legion
    PugnusDei - Storm Legion Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I think MM used to be a better class back in open beta but too many people complained about it so it was nerfed. I think the MM was supposed to contribute accuracy to the party. You can see this because (a) the MM contributes accuracy as a group buff and (b) the armor sets emphasize it. For example the level 77 MM blue set (Zothinian) contributes 40 accuracy for 3 pieces and 40 more for 6 pieces.

    But. The group accuracy increase buff is capped at 26 (for level 6 Accuracy Guidance which is dropped from the 70-80 world bosses) for other party members. That is a pathetic buff.

    Furthermore the MM skill "Pulse Shot" is supposed to increase the MM accuracy by 100. (The other aspects of this skill are weak -- slow shot, long cooldown, weak attack.) But. The accuracy increase part has been broken for months.

    If the MM could have really high accuracy and throw a party buff that increased party accuracy significantly, and have a skill that would temporarily really increase the accuracy -- might be ok. But none of these are (any longer) true.

    +++

    For PvE the fix for MM would be pretty simple. Just assign a race based resistance to boss AoE.

    Without a fix like this, MM are a vulnerable modest dps class. Burst MM's really shine in some instances (like Fort Khoaway) and have no problem surviving while questing or farming. But 75+ they are a mediocre class for PvE.
  • HarryDotte - Lionheart
    HarryDotte - Lionheart Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Well , away from the 2 random comments above me i always get highest score in 6v6 arena even vs ppl with wings when i have cheap gears , As a pure burst MM , But the topic is true Sins way overpowered (in small pvp only ** ) , Sometimes as MM i dont even get to make a move they appear from hide and silence u and stun , Then u die before making a single move , Same for warrior but i can say all classes have same problem , So it depeneds on player and yea MM is way in unfair position compare to rest of classes .

    However , remember this When guild wars come out , there will be QQ threads bout burst MM being overpowered in grp wars , Since they already can take advantage in 6v6 pvp in getting red handed easily and aoe safely .

    Anyways , If a GM reads this the real problem is that the game range is a total mess , I swear protectors snipe me and i mean the word , That goes for sins / warriors , Even when i keep mass range they get to me , The range need to be fixed
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Special thanks to Baby for the signature .
  • GrimSol - Eyrda
    GrimSol - Eyrda Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Well , away from the 2 random comments above me i always get highest score in 6v6 arena even vs ppl with wings when i have cheap gears , As a pure burst MM , But the topic is true Sins way overpowered (in small pvp only ** ) , Sometimes as MM i dont even get to make a move they appear from hide and silence u and stun , Then u die before making a single move , Same for warrior but i can say all classes have same problem , So it depeneds on player and yea MM is way in unfair position compare to rest of classes .

    However , remember this When guild wars come out , there will be QQ threads bout burst MM being overpowered in grp wars , Since they already can take advantage in 6v6 pvp in getting red handed easily and aoe safely .

    Anyways , If a GM reads this the real problem is that the game range is a total mess , I swear protectors snipe me and i mean the word , That goes for sins / warriors , Even when i keep mass range they get to me , The range need to be fixed

    ^hes lying,

    marksmen suck
    yes, I am an angry person.....

    deal with it.
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    During beta, burst marksman dominated guild battles. Two of them would wipe the entire enemy guild with rake spam.

    After beta, burst marksmen were nerfed, and with the level cap increase, soul marksmen started to emerge and started to take over in place of the AOE marksman.

    Now it actually takes "some" skill to be a marksman. If you are having issues with sins, start using rake of fire on enemy mobs and see if you can blast the sin with the splash to knock him out of their normal invisibility. You can outrun them, out evade them, and in the case of arena.... you can usually kill them with random splash AOE.

    I know from experience with my sin that it is a pain in the **** to kill a decent ranged player because they will never stop moving and sins will generally only get one hit off and then the MM heals itself (or a priest heals it.)

    Quit crying and learn how to play your class. Use your range to your advantage against melee characters.
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  • PugnusDei - Storm Legion
    PugnusDei - Storm Legion Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    An issue here though is PvP (arena) versus PvE. The perspectives are completely different. One the one hand you have the arena junkies and their focus on kiting, red hand, etc. Battles tend to be settled in 90 seconds or less. On the other hand you have the world boss and 70+ instance boss slug fests. World boss battles up to 40+ minutes for the tough ones.

    As a PvE 75+ burst MM my focus is on the wb battles. So everything posted here about MM in arena is meaningless to me -- I really don't care. And anything I post about wb's and 70+ instance bosses is probably meaningless to the arena junkies (they use arena armor anyway).

    So there are 2 different problem sets. And while there appear to be effective talent tree builds and tactics for MM's in the arena, when it comes to getting hammered for 20 to 40 minutes with bosses that can one hit 20k+ hp -- it is a different story. It is certainly doable (because I am doing it) BUT it is the case that except for mages, the MM's have the toughest time of it facing the wb's.
  • Borsook - Eyrda
    Borsook - Eyrda Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    It's hard to kite so much when the enemy has some mass CCs. Most of those weren't available in beta due to low level cap. I remember as fire mage back then it was so easy to get RH in wars and wipe everything... at lv50. I'd say after 60+, most classes get some insane AoE CCs. (e.g: glacial priest, ice mage)
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    It's hard to kite so much when the enemy has some mass CCs. Most of those weren't available in beta due to low level cap. I remember as fire mage back then it was so easy to get RH in wars and wipe everything... at lv50. I'd say after 60+, most classes get some insane AoE CCs. (e.g: glacial priest, ice mage)

    Agreed, but mass CC's do not apply to the general sin population.... which is what they were crying about. And those with AOE CC's you cannot kite anyway because they are ranged classes by default.

    You can chose to make the argument that your team would CC and the melee's would slaughter... but that is just a well built team rather than a comparison between two separate classes.
    An issue here though is PvP (arena) versus PvE. The perspectives are completely different. One the one hand you have the arena junkies and their focus on kiting, red hand, etc. Battles tend to be settled in 90 seconds or less. On the other hand you have the world boss and 70+ instance boss slug fests. World boss battles up to 40+ minutes for the tough ones.

    As a PvE 75+ burst MM my focus is on the wb battles. So everything posted here about MM in arena is meaningless to me -- I really don't care. And anything I post about wb's and 70+ instance bosses is probably meaningless to the arena junkies (they use arena armor anyway).

    So there are 2 different problem sets. And while there appear to be effective talent tree builds and tactics for MM's in the arena, when it comes to getting hammered for 20 to 40 minutes with bosses that can one hit 20k+ hp -- it is a different story. It is certainly doable (because I am doing it) BUT it is the case that except for mages, the MM's have the toughest time of it facing the wb's.

    Why you would be expecting to be useful in WB hunts as a burst MM is beyond my understanding.

    Burst MM = do lots of damage total to lots of enemies in small increments....

    Trying to burn a WB to death and use some weak AOEs is fairly futile compared to spamming high powered shots that the other trees offer.... so you are pretty much in the wrong if you are expecting a solution to your tree in a discussion with WBs.
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  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    You CAN'T kite melee classes in this game. That's the whole point to the OP QQing.

    Sins are just unbeatable. 2 stealths, a telestun AND a ranged knife throw. Like, really? Just lol. Starting a fight with 50% hp is bad enough. The amount of cc and crits the edge tree gets on top of everything else is sickening.

    Warriors and prots... a bit easier, but the odds are heavily stacked against mms. Ignoring the fact that majority of warriors are elemental and have BoR meaning you can literally suicide on them before they die (bor is 160% in this version compared to 40% in CN I believe, but don't quote me on this).

    Here's a pvp scenario:
    Warrior opens with assault + whatever, you're missing 1/3rd hp already. You invigorate/castoff to get some distance, huntermark and pulse shot while he gets another hit on you and you kite a bit more to start dpsing him. You're at 50% hp already. If you stop to get orbs he'll assault you again and you're dead. I lost 100% of matches where I tried kiting a warrior. It's simply impossible because of assault.

    Now if I open up with a burst of rage, drop cloud to get my orbs, while praying that soul snipe procs and stuns, I might have enough time to fire off mfb and another burst of rage. That ended up with me winning a few times, but it was a close call every time.

    Another big problem is orbs, melee classes get orbs an inch away from them, while mms have their orbs go apesht flying all over the place. We have to stop attacking while we get orbs, unlike the melee classes. A HUGE setback right there.

    When it comes to prots, IF they don't use rocky and their racial RANGED stun we can win yeah. If they use either of those, we're pretty much focked. Oh and they have a speed buff too! A rock with a speed buff!

    The whole point to the marksmen class was get orbs and burn the sht out of everything. Once they nerfed RoF though, we lost the one thing we were good for. Nowadays our only redeeming quality in pvp is burst damage in the soul tree, but the problem is mages get a harder hitting aoe version of it called purgatory of rapeface, leaving us in the dust.

    Evasion builds USED to be a viable option for a while, but at 75+ with sets giving 40 accuracy and IDs giving 8 (mistakingly displayed as 5/6 on 70+ gear, feel free to test yourself), it just doesn't cut it anymore. Now IF we have an accuracy reducing move like dark vamps, or some form of cc like mages, I would be one happy camper.

    But as it stands now, we're the underdog no matter if you look at it from a pve or a pvp perspective. We have mediocre dps, no survivability, and no cc (sins get stealth, vamps can heal and reduce accuracy, mages have that op mp shield and cc, priests and bards can heal/cc/shield. We get soul resolution. Waste 3 bullets to absorb 2.5k dmg. Thats one hit at base wrath lmao). I mean give us SOMETHING. I don't care if its a weak self heal, or an accuracy reducing move, or some form of cc. Just being realistic, I cant think of ANY scenario that would make pulse shot or extreme sniping worth using. Ever. Soul snipe would be good, but at 50% chance to stun you can't rely on it. Not to mention all 3 of those skills require a target to be hunter marked.

    PvE/PvP single target dps: warriors, sins and wind mages hit harder than a soul/precision mm AND have better cc
    PvE/PvP aoe - both fire and wind mages hit harder than burst mms, have have better survivability thanks to that mp shield, and in the case of ice mages who may have a little bit less dps, they have the best aoe cc capabilities along with glacial priests

    Now you give me one scenario where you would actually want an mm.
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Quit crying and learn how to play your class. Use your range to your advantage against melee characters.

    I just explained that the range advantage is meaningless but I guess you are the resident expert on all things fw so I will refrain from speaking out about "my" frustration with a class.
  • Patty_ - Eyrda
    Patty_ - Eyrda Posts: 757 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Trying to burn a WB to death and use some weak AOEs is fairly futile compared to spamming high powered shots that the other trees offer.... so you are pretty much in the wrong if you are expecting a solution to your tree in a discussion with WBs.
    Pardon?
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    That is a good point Crum, by the time I use hunters mark like 20-30% of my hp is gone already. Sins gets first hits EVERY time guaranteed. Hunters mark is supposed to stop target from entering stealth but is a total wash because in ANY PvP scenario 1) The sin is already in stealth 2) has a second stealth that cannot be broke.

    But its not like I am complaining specifically about sins. After PWI I get to realize these developers have an obsession with sins and so they almost always will be a top tier class. My issue is just that my "ranged advantage" just does not exist so far. Its a far cry from playing my ice mage. In a word its...underwhelming!
  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Pardon?

    Soul discharge and burst of rage in perma crackshot mode.
    That is a good point Crum, by the time I use hunters mark like 20-30% of my hp is gone already. Sins gets first hits EVERY time guaranteed. Hunters mark is supposed to stop target from entering stealth but is a total wash because in ANY PvP scenario 1) The sin is already in stealth 2) has a second stealth that cannot be broke.

    Yeh I know, they have like 100% crit on the first hit, you get sealed/stunned giving them another 2 free hits and theres no point in hunter marking them or running away since they can enter stealth again. Woo hoo.

    I mean I've beaten quite a few winged warriors and prots at the same level (I'm 78), yet I lost to a level 60 something edge sin with half the chroma. And I feel NO shame in admitting to that because they're just THAT broken of a class (at least in 1v1/3v3).
    But its not like I am complaining specifically about sins. After PWI I get to realize these developers have an obsession with sins and so they almost always will be a top tier class. My issue is just that my "ranged advantage" just does not exist so far. Its a far cry from playing my ice mage. In a word its...underwhelming!

    Yah, I considered rerolling but I invested too much time and money in this char to give it up. I'm hoping the upcoming demon/sage patch balances things somewhat. Although knowing PWE, it's just going to make already op classes more op. If it does, plenty of other games to keep me occupied xD
  • Patty_ - Eyrda
    Patty_ - Eyrda Posts: 757 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Soul discharge and burst of rage in perma crackshot mode.
    Oh I thought bat is talking about some good dps move I haven't discovered yet, not the soul's medicore dps capability almost as bad as burst's...
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Oh my issue definitely is not about our damage! I am precision and my damage per hit is very good. Also played a bit of soul so I know their damage per hit is great too. That said my two major damage skills (not counting extreme sniping because that is just one heck of a waste for a skill......5 seconds......seriously?........) take 2 seconds to cast and one feels more like 3 seconds (aimed shot) than 2 seconds.

    I am qqing Firebat but its justifiable qq. To tell people they need to go learn their class in light of the people that actually do play the class telling you that their is a problem is pretty short sighted on your end.
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Oh I thought bat is talking about some good dps move I haven't discovered yet, not the soul's medicore dps capability almost as bad as burst's...

    No our dps sucks mightily regardless of the tree however our dph is excellent. Compare to when my mage was fire and then lightning no lol, ranged dps of mms sucks in comparison. As I said in previous post my major damage skills have 2 second cast and 5 second cools. No spamming there. That said I am personally satisfied with my damage.
  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Oh I thought bat is talking about some good dps move I haven't discovered yet, not the soul's medicore dps capability almost as bad as burst's...

    Lmao xD But come on, it's not THAT bad. I tank more stuff than I'd like to when I'm soul D: Although I will agree, even as soul we're STILL not up to par with sins and warriors. Hell I used to lose aggro to Jai and he's rebel :rolleyes: Probably not anymoar at 3.3k attack tho. Yay for the set piece bonus :D
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Oh my issue definitely is not about our damage! I am precision and my damage per hit is very good. Also played a bit of soul so I know their damage per hit is great too. That said my two major damage skills (not counting extreme sniping because that is just one heck of a waste for a skill......5 seconds......seriously?........) take 2 seconds to cast and one feels more like 3 seconds (aimed shot) than 2 seconds.

    I am qqing Firebat but its justifiable qq. To tell people they need to go learn their class in light of the people that actually do play the class telling you that their is a problem is pretty short sighted on your end.

    You have several tricks that you can employ if you are having issues... that is the point.
    Yes, sins will **** you if they get a hold of you... but you know exactly what they will do, and the exact order that they will do it in.

    You KNOW sins will go stealth and stun you.... You can counter this with an AOE and knock them out of stealth. No stealth = no crit = no stun.

    You know that sins are in stealth coming for you... if you cannot toss out an aoe to knock them out... you can just keep moving and kite them until their stealth wears off 30 seconds later. That is plenty of time to tab target them and hit them... which only leaves them with their combat stealth.

    Hell, toss down the smoke bomb and drop their accuracy so they can't hit you, and cant stun you... do something other than just walking up to them and letting them stunlock you. Once they are out of stealth, the crit chance is not predicable enough to do much more than get one free hit before you are out of range. Pretty sure you have teammates that can cast an AOE with no targeting required to remove the initial stealth.

    You act like sins are the end-all class... they are squishy and rely on being sneaky. You KNOW they are coming, they don't mix things up... it is ALWAYS the same... prepare and compensate.

    Yes, sins are good vs MMs... they arn't unbeatable though... every class supposedly has a counter in this game... just deal with it the best you can.
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    You just do not get it. For you the best thing would be to roll the class yourself and experience it first hand. Clearly you have no idea.
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    You just do not get it. For you the best thing would be to roll the class yourself and experience it first hand. Clearly you have no idea.

    ... I have played both classes thank you very much.... so clearly I would understand how they both function, and how to counter each.

    Would you like to try again?

    (In fact, I have two sins, and two MMs)
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Batty's main is a sin, he's just been not playing for a while :D
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Batty's main is a sin, he's just been not playing for a while :D

    Indeed.... boring game is boring.

    Basics still apply though, isn't that right Crum? Do sins not pull the same exact things over and over again? Is the threat reduced significantly if they lose stealth or their first attack fails to crit? Do you not kill sins with AOE without even trying?

    (and actually I have a char or two leveling via non-stop AFK training just for ****-and-giggles)
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    ... I have played both classes thank you very much.... so clearly I would understand how they both function, and how to counter each.

    Would you like to try again?

    (In fact, I have two sins, and two MMs)

    Reading what you have written thus far, I would never have guessed. Seems you need to go learn the class as well. Any of those mms on Eryda and care to share the name? I'm curious.
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Reading what you have written thus far, I would never have guessed. Seems you need to go learn the class as well. Any of those mms on Eryda and care to share the name? I'm curious.

    One is Firebat obviously.. a low level I just have for the name, and the other is my little secret.
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    If its Shaggins I'll roll all over these forums laughing.
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    If its Shaggins I'll roll all over these forums laughing.

    .... who the **** is that?
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    GreyjoyKraken -Firebat has been revealed as an evil bridge troll. Seek him out and solve his riddles three to get the mythical 2013 holiday box.
  • Ghundam - Eyrda
    Ghundam - Eyrda Posts: 321 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    If youre on Eryda you'll run into him at some point.
  • Crum - Eyrda
    Crum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Indeed.... boring game is boring.

    You missed out on so much drama tho. Like half final went to envy. Now half envy went to cata. And cata broke the alliance with envy and i hear they're considering allying final now! The drama doesn't end. And koubo pvp is fun, you should try it ;)
    Basics still apply though, isn't that right Crum? Do sins not pull the same exact things over and over again? Is the threat reduced significantly if they lose stealth or their first attack fails to crit? Do you not kill sins with AOE without even trying?

    I used to of course, but not as many trash sins like that anymore at these levels. People started cs whoaring mastery and resistances now. Makes a world of difference.

    What you said applies in team battles and low level arenas. But when you're talking 30k hp sins with level 60 mastery and lv40 res... not so much. Then again, the same could be said for any class, but it's just more noticable with sins coz of their stuns and silence. Pair it up with an ice mage or a warrior and you're toast unless the priest bubbles you through that initial burst of damage, which most don't even though no one goes for priests first anymore xD
  • Firebat - Eyrda
    Firebat - Eyrda Posts: 4,190 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    If youre on Eryda you'll run into him at some point.

    Yea... not likely.

    Stopped playing after the latest patch... just AFK leveling alts now for no reason.

    But since nothing has changed in the past two major patches, all the basic strategies still apply.

    1.) Remove sin stealth
    2.) Fast Action to increase speed + evasion
    3.) Penetrating Shot to reduce resistances and speed
    4.) Rake
    5.) Do what you like to damage and maintain reduced speed
    6.) ?????
    7.) Profit

    If sins combat stealth.... just stay out of range for 16 or whatever seconds it takes to wear off. If stunned use invigorate. Never stand still... ever. Run, cast, run some more.

    That is really all it takes to *survive* the general edge sin population. You will lose a lot of fights of course, but you will also win some too.... and in the mean time, you will survive long enough to take out some other people with you. Burst MMs are not exactly meant to be a 1v1 class. Hell, MMs in general are not meant to be 1v1, they are more or less glass cannons that are meant to support. Sins are BUILT to be 1v1, what do you honestly expect to accomplish?

    I used to of course, but not as many trash sins like that anymore at these levels. People started cs whoaring mastery and resistances now. Makes a world of difference.

    What you said applies in team battles and low level arenas. But when you're talking 30k hp sins with level 60 mastery and lv40 res... not so much. Then again, the same could be said for any class, but it's just more noticable with sins coz of their stuns and silence. Pair it up with an ice mage or a warrior and you're toast unless the priest bubbles you through that initial burst of damage, which most don't even though no one goes for priests first anymore xD

    Yea, krogger told me about the weird drama thing with final/envy... happens a lot in guild based games I guess.

    And it should be obvious that what I say doesn't apply to people who are cash shopping the hell out of themselves. I never believed MMs would be able to dish out MASSIVE damage to anything all by their lonesome, much less enough to eat through 30k HP.

    The general population (like those complaining about MM vs Sin) are not going to be able to kill some of these hardcore players even with a dedicated priest to help them.
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