Fingers held high to nerfs!

Endless_XI - Storm Legion
Endless_XI - Storm Legion Posts: 160 Arc User
edited July 2011 in General Discussion
First off I'm going to say it, no this isn't a troll the opinions of my post are my own and I dont expect or care if they are shared. I'm not saying I don't want people to agree, just saying it wont break or make my day in actuallity I hope people do agree. Also if this offends you please feel free to shout your offence out your window and I'll get back to you when I hear it...

Nerfs are for the weak and talentless player, the type of person that cant play a normal game without hax or console cheats because they die to much or the puzzles are to hard. I'm not saying cheats or hax are a bad thing, no no infact I love using them but only for the hell of it, I can just as easily play a game cheats free and enjoy it.

Time hardend well aged players or even gamers that I know HATE when someone even hints at a game being nerfed, when a game is even in the thought process the team working on it is balancing out what every class and race is and can do. They make sure that type class A can beat type class B but will lose to Type Class C But Type class C will lose to Type class B and everything is balanced. Not saying thats exactly how it is but its the closest example I could think right now. Once you make a nerf in any one of those type classes you unbalance the whole game unless you then nerf the other 2 but if you do that its right back to the A>B>C that it started with making nerfing a pointless action to begin with except now the players are weaker than the mobs. So then you have to nerf the mobs and by the time all the nerfs are done you have a horribly ruined game not suitable for any real players and might as well open it up to children and bots...

Point is this. Games are made to be exactly what they are supposed to be and people that care about games, "gamers" or even just real game players will take and enjoy the chalanges and they don't want or need a nerf to make things fun because things were fun to begin with. People with no talent on the other hand have to whine and complain about the stupidest things because they can't handle the challanges of the game so they need nerfs. If you can't handle PVP its not because some class is OP its because they put the effort or money into their character to make it kick-**** and/or maybe you're just underpowered because your gear stinks or you can't play your class or maybe you're just a type class A and they are your Type class C. Either way you don't need to whine, just move to PVE where you don't have to worry about it and get on with playing...

TL: DR

noobs need nerfs, real gamers don't...
Post edited by Endless_XI - Storm Legion on

Comments

  • Nextactus - Storm Legion
    Nextactus - Storm Legion Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    while i agree with some of what u said, sometimes nerfs are very warranted and needed. Being one of "Time hardend well aged players" u speak of yes it does get under our skin when people cry nerf because they believe its too hard. With that being said i have been in several MMO's where the nerf'ing and sometimes boosting of classes/instances/raids/ whatever i may have been was totally needed and for the best of the game.

    What pisses us off more is when the devs decide that their gonna do things because of the whiny little punks that dont feel like learning the class their class playing and want that win button. A lot of people say the devs don't listen to their subscribers when the truth is most of the time they are listening, just to the wrong bunch. Mainly because those whiners are the biggest voice. If people are happy with the game play and think it is balanced properly they dont post that on forums. They are too busy enjoying the game. But the ones that cant play it because its too difficult to learn how to play correctly sit and whine constantly.

    In my personal opinion game devs need to stop listening to the people on the forums. go through the servers and find the hardcore gamers that play your game for hours upon hours every day and make a team of them up to listen to what they have to say. EVE does this and imo it works 100 times better than listening to the forums
  • Endless_XI - Storm Legion
    Endless_XI - Storm Legion Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Thats actually a really good point, I'd totaly forgotten about the devs.
  • FreakyPriest - Nyos
    FreakyPriest - Nyos Posts: 487 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    To be fair Endless, you're spouting a lot of nonsense. Do you know why so called "Time hardened" players or anyone that's an actual "gamer" cries at nerfs? Because 90% of them go copycat whatever cookiecutter build is out there and can't handle it actually being changed and them having to THINK of their OWN build and actually having to do more than read a forum post like this:
    1: Get these skills
    2. Put them in your hotbar like this >>Screenie here<<
    3. Press 1-2-1-3-4-1-2-1. Except when going against class X, then go 5-1-2-1-3-4-1-2-1
    4. Gratz! You've become another brainless zombie, welcome to the club!

    Nerfs and buffs are very much needed. You got way more players than devs out there. In other words we players test out way more **** than devs ever could and we test out stuff the devs wouldn't even have considered. This can and usually does result in certain stuff simply being stronger than intended. The other way around some stuff might turn out weaker than intended and thus gets buffed.

    I've played a game before(not mentioning it as I'm not sure if it's against the rules) that had nerfs/buffs like every 2 weeks. Did anyone ever cry a river about it, did thousands ragequit, did people die, did the world end? No! Why not? Because the community realized that they could make OP builds that steamrolled everything. If you go to the top PvP and suddenly see everyone having the exact same team, some bell should definitely start ringing.

    This game is still being developed, there are still flaws to be polished and there are tons of things not working as intended (for example skills saying they do something they don't etc etc). So why can't people accept there are skills/stats that simply don't work as intended? Why is it so hard for people to realize stuff isn't perfect and some buffs/nerfs should be applied? Well I can tell you why, because they're still winning with their cookie cutter builds. Once they start losing due to new skills/talents after 80 cap watch them being the first on the forum crying all over the place about new skills that need to be nerfed asap.

    @Nextactus
    You have a valid point with the devs. In the game I played they did that as well. They watched a lot of PvP, saw how certain builds were working out and some weren't and made their decisions based on that. It would be nice if PWE did something like this as well(doubt it's gonna happen though) although CS does make it harder. The game I used as example is P2P so everyone is equal gearwise.
  • Xsasukex - Storm Legion
    Xsasukex - Storm Legion Posts: 1,568 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    PWE cant change anything gamewise just like they want and like they see fit. They can however suggest to the actual developers of this game (the CN devs) to do something.
    [SIGPIC]http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7664/xsasukex.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    xSasukex | 75 | Elemental | Warrior (retired)
    CuteNDeadly | 66 | Venom | Assassin <Naholdir's Princess>
  • Yue - Eyrda
    Yue - Eyrda Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    PWE cant change anything gamewise just like they want and like they see fit. They can however suggest to the actual developers of this game (the CN devs) to do something.

    What She said.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Endless_XI - Storm Legion
    Endless_XI - Storm Legion Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    To be fair Endless, you're spouting a lot of nonsense. Do you know why so called "Time hardened" players or anyone that's an actual "gamer" cries at nerfs? Because 90% of them go copycat whatever cookiecutter build is out there and can't handle it actually being changed and them having to THINK of their OWN build and actually having to do more than read a forum post like this:
    1: Get these skills
    2. Put them in your hotbar like this >>Screenie here<<
    3. Press 1-2-1-3-4-1-2-1. Except when going against class X, then go 5-1-2-1-3-4-1-2-1
    4. Gratz! You've become another brainless zombie, welcome to the club!

    Nerfs and buffs are very much needed. You got way more players than devs out there. In other words we players test out way more **** than devs ever could and we test out stuff the devs wouldn't even have considered. This can and usually does result in certain stuff simply being stronger than intended. The other way around some stuff might turn out weaker than intended and thus gets buffed.

    I've played a game before(not mentioning it as I'm not sure if it's against the rules) that had nerfs/buffs like every 2 weeks. Did anyone ever cry a river about it, did thousands ragequit, did people die, did the world end? No! Why not? Because the community realized that they could make OP builds that steamrolled everything. If you go to the top PvP and suddenly see everyone having the exact same team, some bell should definitely start ringing.

    This game is still being developed, there are still flaws to be polished and there are tons of things not working as intended (for example skills saying they do something they don't etc etc). So why can't people accept there are skills/stats that simply don't work as intended? Why is it so hard for people to realize stuff isn't perfect and some buffs/nerfs should be applied? Well I can tell you why, because they're still winning with their cookie cutter builds. Once they start losing due to new skills/talents after 80 cap watch them being the first on the forum crying all over the place about new skills that need to be nerfed asap.

    I think you may have missed something or at least you reversed something. I'm not saying "Time hardened players or anyone that's an actual "gamer" wants a nerf," those are the ones I'm saying don't want it and what you're discribing are the untalented nooblets I'm saying do want the nerfs. Also for anyone talking about or thinking that I'm talking about this game or PWE specifically, I'm not this is totaly in general and thats why no games or companies were named.

    Your second point, the one about us players testing far more **** than devs ever could. I dont see how this has to do with what I was talking about, as far as I'm concerned that goes under the category of "testing and development" which is what "testers" and "beta" are for and not the general populace (ok, so open beta is but its still T&D so doesn't count) so I didn't even cover anyhting to do with that...

    you're correct, the games still open beta, still has things to polish and yeah as soon as 80 cap hit people will QQ and want nerfs just like they did when 70 cap hit, I'm not saying anything about that BUT, the people that wont QQ for nerfs are the people that like the challange...
  • Raxor - Storm Legion
    Raxor - Storm Legion Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Were you talking about a fighting game, I would say yea nerfing isn't always the best choice, but you're not. Let's see in Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition, we have Yun and Yang. These two are overpowered characters because that have pretty much a counter for everything. The have frame traps, meter builders, and really good combos. Not only that but these characters were designed to be overpowered.
    Real players ask for nerfs after all possibilities to beat something have been tested. If something doesn't have a counter it needs to be changed to make things more fair.

    TL; DR
    Nerfing really needs to be considered after a good amount of time has passed and something is clearly too strong.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "The Demon of Bushido" If you're bored there are other games. And in case you are wondering I'm a male playing as a female character.
  • Thori - Storm Legion
    Thori - Storm Legion Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    +1 to Raxor. This game is too new to start considering a nerf yet, however if it goes the way of PWI then please, bring it on! xD
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FreakyPriest - Nyos
    FreakyPriest - Nyos Posts: 487 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    I think you may have missed something or at least you reversed something. I'm not saying "Time hardened players or anyone that's an actual "gamer" wants a nerf," those are the ones I'm saying don't want it and what you're discribing are the untalented nooblets I'm saying do want the nerfs. Also for anyone talking about or thinking that I'm talking about this game or PWE specifically, I'm not this is totaly in general and thats why no games or companies were named.

    Your second point, the one about us players testing far more **** than devs ever could. I dont see how this has to do with what I was talking about, as far as I'm concerned that goes under the category of "testing and development" which is what "testers" and "beta" are for and not the general populace (ok, so open beta is but its still T&D so doesn't count) so I didn't even cover anyhting to do with that...

    you're correct, the games still open beta, still has things to polish and yeah as soon as 80 cap hit people will QQ and want nerfs just like they did when 70 cap hit, I'm not saying anything about that BUT, the people that wont QQ for nerfs are the people that like the challange...

    Uhmmm, you're completely missing my point. I'm saying all those people that cry about nerfs are those using the cookiecutter builds, thus 90% of the players. Well could be 90% of the people are noobs then, actually sounds like quite a realistic amount. However of this 90% I think a lot will fall under your so called "time hardened" or "real gamer" category.

    My second point doesn't make sense to you? Even in P2P games devs can't test EVERYTHING, thus players will find things the devs didn't think of and sometimes these things turn out OP. How is this irrelevant to this thread? If something is OP it should be nerfed. You shouldn't see 99% of the players roll exactly the same char/build/team because it's the only thing that can win.

    Your third point... there's a difference between a challenge and... well stupidity. Climbing some mountain is a challenge, trying to simply walk up the Empire State Building without any equipment whatsoever is stupidity. If there's something that just facerolls anything it runs into, trying to beat it falls into the second category, not the first.
  • Endless_XI - Storm Legion
    Endless_XI - Storm Legion Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Uhmmm, you're completely missing my point. I'm saying all those people that cry about nerfs are those using the cookiecutter builds, thus 90% of the players. Well could be 90% of the people are noobs then, actually sounds like quite a realistic amount. However of this 90% I think a lot will fall under your so called "time hardened" or "real gamer" category.

    My second point doesn't make sense to you? Even in P2P games devs can't test EVERYTHING, thus players will find things the devs didn't think of and sometimes these things turn out OP. How is this irrelevant to this thread? If something is OP it should be nerfed. You shouldn't see 99% of the players roll exactly the same char/build/team because it's the only thing that can win.

    Your third point... there's a difference between a challenge and... well stupidity. Climbing some mountain is a challenge, trying to simply walk up the Empire State Building without any equipment whatsoever is stupidity. If there's something that just facerolls anything it runs into, trying to beat it falls into the second category, not the first.

    part 1- its really possible if there was a point there I did miss it because I just thought you reversed what/ who I was talking about so thanks for rehashing it.

    part 2- it didnt' make sence because it seemed like you were talking about some test phase that had nothing to do with anything I said. I didn't see how aparently you were still on the "cookie cutter" topic from the begining which since you again did a rehash it seems the whole topic is about the cookie cutters.

    part 3- yep, again I'm agreeing...
  • Grimspark - Lionheart
    Grimspark - Lionheart Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    This is long cuz I feel like rambling. I'll start with a duplicitous issue.

    Until recently, in Runes of Magic, Scouts could solo entire instances by themselves. We're talking Archers here folks. Their instances make FW's look like child's play.

    It was nerfed pretty good back in June. A lot of people played Scouts, but they only played them because they couldn't compete against other Scouts. They had crits of some ungodly number, I know it was over 200k damage. On players. Needless to say there were a lot of cash shoppers.

    At the time there was an argument proposed by some, that maybe all the OTHER classes should simply be beefed up. There's that duplicity I was talking about. Is one class truly pwnage, or are some/most of the other classes simply underpowered? I chalk the above nerf up to economics. It's just easier to nerf one class than the tweak all the others.

    You're not going to see a drastic rise in knowledgeable players here, simply because you can't solo anything hard. The game won't let you. And THAT'S when you really learn the ins and outs of your character. I almost tanked AoS one night (as a Dwarf!) when our Vietnamese warrior called it hopeless and ported out. The only thing that stopped us was the boss regenerating all its HP. I kited like a ****. I ran in a proper circle, got healed, while everyone whittled down the boss. It took forever, but it was gonna happen. Till it regen'd like a little bish. That's the kind of stuff you can't learn in parties, usually, because you rarely have to step beyond your station.

    And as for world bosses, you're either gonna win that or you're not. That's just gear and level. I couldn't help but notice how melee bosses can hit you from a Marksman's range with an aoe. That **** is broken if you ask me. In any case, good luck finding one that you get all to yourself so you can practice.

    Anyways, I think a more realistic problem here is the illusion of flexibility by cross-classing. Most times, this is the problem people are actually talking about when they talk about learning one's character. Every time I see a Rebel Priest on PVE I wanna scream. Yes, I respect their right to choose, and their vision for their character, assuming they have any. Hell, most of my characters are against the grain. But these same people WILL complain later on that they can't get into parties, or they get *****ed at. Well, them's the breaks now ain't it? We associate a Rebel Priest with a "fail priest" on PVE because they can't do a Priest's job that well. That wouldn't be a big deal of course, except you can't solo instances without multi-clienting.

    I think a lot of QQing could be avoided if people would tell the group from the start "I'm not a Divine Priest btw." Then at least people could prepare themselves.

    And as for learning to play better, start with admitting that your character is not going to be able to do some things. Period. You can try, but it's not going to be as good as a class that was made for that job. Just like they're not going to be able to do some things yours can.