Celestial Conduit - Looking for info and help

gradii · April 2015

I wanna know how much damage I can get out of it, and what I need to do to do so.

I know it sucks for base damage and hence wont be great no matter what I do, but I'd like to make it at least passable for a light based character build which doesn't rely entirely on TK.

TK assault's animation is so meh.

Any info about rebuke and expulse would also be appreciated.

hasukurobi · April 2015

It does not do that horrible of damage really and it can heal as well. One really important thing to know about CC is that you should get Illuminate with the perk that lets it hit multiple things in one casting. If you cast this on a group of enemies not only do you get heals for attacking them but CC will bounce between them like a beam of light bouncing off of a mirror allowing it to become AoE.

roughbearmattach · April 2015

Most people using Conduit are playing a healer, choosing a support passive.

You could choose an offensive passive and run DPS role.

Since it is a maintain, take the energy unlock that helps maintains, Overdrive.

Superstat Ego, whether PSS (and get better crits) or as SSS.

Ego Surge is the AO you want, since it boosts damage and your Ego, which will also boost damage. This is aside from the crit advantage you can take.

And Illuminate is an absolute must.

Unknown · April 2015

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moxiedanger · April 2015

Conduit isn't bad for base damage; its tap DPS is on par with 2GM's maintain DPS. It is much more costly, End wise, but that can be managed.

flowcyto · April 2015

Its tap dps is indeed good if ya can manage the energy, though as Aqia has pointed out before ya want to try to exploit the extra tick that maintains get w/in the first sec by briefly holding the tap- just to get more dps from it. W/ just tap-spamming, the activation delay hurts its ideal dps a bit.

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4600831&postcount=49

Ebon Ruin w/ ParaPara also helps optimize its dmg a bit more on single targets.

Unknown · April 2015

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kallethen · April 2015

man.of.light had a celestial DPS build that centered around Conduit. Maybe look to that for ideas?

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=210281

jennymachx · April 2015

Definitely boost up crits, since Conduit is a tick damage power.

jonesing4 · April 2015

gradii wrote: »

Why would I want to tap celestial conduit.

gradii wrote: »

I wanna know how much damage I can get out of it, and what I need to do to do so.

It's like you went back in time and answered your own question before you even asked it.

Unknown · April 2015

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bluhman · April 2015

Kais' damage tests on various ranged powers confirmed that the best way to get damage out of this move is to do slow taps. If you do it right, you should be generating 2 subsequent damage ticks in rapid succession every time you tap. Tap about once every half second to do this, holding down a bit on each. So, the best way to get damage/healing out of it isn't strictly to tap it, but to slowly pulsate it.

(src)

I'm almost certain this applies to the heal mode as well - which means it's actually a hell of a lot stronger heal than I initially took it for.

moxiedanger · April 2015

gradii wrote: »

Who said I didn't? with.... Muy Tuyme Mushine!

But seriously don't expect someone to tap celestial conduit unless the concept is super-seizures. :rolleyes:

Rolls eyes right back.

I expect someone to semi-tap it (because of how the damage ticks work) if they want to get "the most out of it". I can understand wanting to maximize something within a given concept. But that is the answer to your question, "seizures" or not.

Unknown · April 2015

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moxiedanger · April 2015

That's fair. I mean, its DPS does take a POUNDING if you want to maintain it, but I agree, the animation does look wonky.

Unknown · April 2015

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aiqa · April 2015

bluhman wrote: »

Kais' damage tests on various ranged powers confirmed that the best way to get damage out of this move is to do slow taps. If you do it right, you should be generating 2 subsequent damage ticks in rapid succession every time you tap. Tap about once every half second to do this, holding down a bit on each. So, the best way to get damage/healing out of it isn't strictly to tap it, but to slowly pulsate it.

(src)

I'm almost certain this applies to the heal mode as well - which means it's actually a hell of a lot stronger heal than I initially took it for.

Heal is even buggier, on heals it can chain to your initial target, allowing 3 or sometimes even 4 ticks on a "tap". All these things are heavily influenced by lag, so not that great to depend on.

If you time things well you can keep up the maintain animation while tap spamming, but that requires some practice and paying attention. And spending that much effort just to use a power in a way that looks good (and is still easily outperformed by a healer that uses tgm for attacks and iniquity for heals) is not so much fun in the long run.

kage1822 · April 2015

kallethen wrote: »

man.of.light had a celestial DPS build that centered around Conduit. Maybe look to that for ideas?

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=210281

I built Avengelyne based on that build and made some modifications with help

helbjorn · April 2015

Which other maintains (if any) benefit from "pulsing"? Does Shadow Embrace? Would be nice to have a means to squeeze a bit more DPS out of that set.

aiqa · April 2015

helbjorn wrote: »

Which other maintains (if any) benefit from "pulsing"? Does Shadow Embrace? Would be nice to have a means to squeeze a bit more DPS out of that set.

Non do in the same way CD does. But Eye of the Storm damage scales down over the maintain, so if you don't need the shield it would give a higher dps by maintaining only the first (few?) ticks.

flowcyto · April 2015

aiqa wrote: »

Non do in the same way CD does. But Eye of the Storm damage scales down over the maintain, so if you don't need the shield it would give a higher dps by maintaining only the first (few?) ticks.

I imagine its also due to Conduit having a 1-sec tick normally- which is a bit odd. Since the tick time is so fast for other maintains, and due to activation times and delays (and human error), I doubt it'd be better for most (sans EotS cause its dps ramps down, yea).

pantagruel01 · April 2015

helbjorn wrote: »

Which other maintains (if any) benefit from "pulsing"?

Assault rifle might, but still likely not all that exciting. The vast majority of maintains will lose dps from being pulsed, however.

flowcyto · April 2015

AR's dmg ramps up, so the first ticks after the initial hit are pretty weak. I'm not too sure about that one. AR is def best for dps when Mow Em Down is taken w/ full maintains. R3 + tapping gets hit pretty hard by the activation delay (and the power's normal listed activation is slightly longer than the tick time- 0.67 vs. 0.5). Could be worth a test if people cared enough, though.

thewinxfairy · May 2015

kallethen wrote: »

man.of.light had a celestial DPS build that centered around Conduit. Maybe look to that for ideas?

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=210281

This is what came to mind when I saw this thread... It's a good build

rtma · May 2015

gradii wrote: »

That's only because it ticks half as often as it should.

Like Crushing Waves? o.3.o Seriously.

Rebuke is a Blast, what do you expect? charge it? can hurt and heal and Expluse is like Force Eruption, get the F**k away, need to charge it, Celestial Powers over all aren't good to be a DPS, why I have Photon part Support since he can with Damage.

helbjorn · May 2015

thewinxfairy wrote: »

This is what came to mind when I saw this thread... It's a good build

Keep in mind, that build was created before the crit/dodge nerf, meaning that since he uses EGO/DEX, Exploit Opening is a better choice than Sixth Sense in the EGO tree. You won't be able to hit 50% crit chance with that setup anymore due to the more punishing DR. EO will give you about 11-12% better overall DPS in a typical EGO/DEX build with Vigilante and Heroic gear.

Unknown · May 2015

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aiqa · May 2015

helbjorn wrote: »

Keep in mind, that build was created before the crit/dodge nerf, meaning that since he uses EGO/DEX, Exploit Opening is a better choice than Sixth Sense in the EGO tree. You won't be able to hit 50% crit chance with that setup anymore due to the more punishing DR. EO will give you about 11-12% better overall DPS in a typical EGO/DEX build with Vigilante and Heroic gear.

Maybe for some build, but certainly not all.
As an example, for my lightning dps build.

Stats:

Crit chance
Character window: 32.5%
Find the Mark: 9%
Focussed Strikes: 6%
Sixth Sense: 5.6%

Severity: 120.9%

Offense: 17%

Damage multiplier with Sixth Sense (blue non crit, red crit)
(1-0.475)*(1+0.17)+0.475*(1+0.17+1.209)=1.744

Damage multiplier with Exploit Opening (blue non crit, green exploit opening, red crit)
(1-0.419)*((1+0.17)*(1-0.419)+(1+0.17+0.3)*0.419)+0.419*(1+0.17+1.209)=1.749

Without either spec
(1-0.419)*(1+0.17)+0.419*(1+0.17+1.209)=1.677

So that is a 7.9% difference is spec performance for me, but with 0.3% almost impossible to see in overall dps.
For me that means with the 4% better overall alpha strike and heal performance, Sixth Sense works better.

/edit
Hadn't thought it through completely, so had to redo the math a bit, but this should be correct.. I think.

Unknown · May 2015

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aiqa · May 2015

gradii wrote: »

I don't think I've ever got more dps with sixth sense on any build unless the base crit was already low (well below 30%)

Even so, I use it on Kritmeister Mary because the whole idea there is more crits. not more damage per se.

I am not very clearheaded today it seems, Exploit Opening is not 30%, it's 30% of severity which for me would be 36.27.

So the multiplier for Exploit Opening is
(1-0.419)*((1+0.17)*(1-0.419)+(1+0.17+1.209*0.3)*0.419)+0.419*(1+0.17+1.209)=1.765

Which makes the overall dps difference 1.2%.
That is still not something I could easily see in any dps parses, the natural variance is bigger. But it might be enough to consider.

There is of course still the 4% difference in alpha-strikes and heals (not quite since offense doesn't work on heals, but the crit chance still works) where Sixth Sense is better, but for a dps build those could be considered slightly less important.

flowcyto · May 2015

Jim ran some math on EO vs. 6th Sense a bit back, using some spreadsheet data from Selphea:

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4568411&postcount=16

Seems like in general its dependent on ur overall stat distribution (crit% vs. 2ndary SS's), but there's prob other factors to consider (more obv ones like crit-based EUs- KI and HI- but also w/ ur severity). I'm not sure the dps diff between the two options will be that much in either case for most builds.

(personal pref inc) I usually take 6th Sense cause the general crit increase can be good for crit-enabled heals.

chaelk · May 2015

helbjorn wrote: »

Which other maintains (if any) benefit from "pulsing"? Does Shadow Embrace? Would be nice to have a means to squeeze a bit more DPS out of that set.

drain life- the first few seconds are what control your target.
a couple of seconds and then repeat equals, everyone else is safe from them.

aiqa · May 2015

flowcyto wrote: »

Jim ran some math on EO vs. 6th Sense a bit back, using some spreadsheet data from Selphea:

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4568411&postcount=16

Seems like in general its dependent on ur overall stat distribution (crit% vs. 2ndary SS's), but there's prob other factors to consider (more obv ones like crit-based EUs- KI and HI- but also w/ ur severity). I'm not sure the dps diff between the two options will be that much in either case for most builds.

(personal pref inc) I usually take 6th Sense cause the general crit increase can be good for crit-enabled heals.

For my pure dps build I think I'm leaning towards Exploit opening, mostly because all these theoretical things so far do not consider AoE attacks.
Exploit opening works on all the non-crits of a AoE attack when any of the hits of the previous attack was a crit.

For me, when hitting 5 target the average damage multiplier on Exploit opening would be (2% lower crit chance due to specs)
(1-0.399)*((1+0.17)*(1-0.399)^5+(1+0.17+1.209*0.3)*(1-(1-0.399)^5))+0.399*(1+0.17+1.209)=1.853

And AoE for Sixth Sense
(1-0.455)*(1+0.17)+0.455*(1+0.17+1.209)=1.72

So that would be an overall dps increase between 1.2% and 7.7%, depending on the type of attack and the number of target I'm hitting.

Also Jim did not seem to consider offense, and that is always an important stat when considering any crit related things. I updated the excel I use for my personal build comparing in my sig, to include comparing Exploit Opening and Sixth Sense.

Unknown · May 2015

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aiqa · May 2015

gradii wrote: »

For those who like the pretty high numbers, exploit opening also means they end up significantly higher, at the cost of a tiny bit of "how often"

Well like Jim's post nicely showed, that is not always true.
Particularly builds with high secondary stats, but without very high crit chance, Sixth Sense could easily turn out to do higher single target dps.

Unknown · May 2015

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aiqa · May 2015

gradii wrote: »

Go back and re read my post. no matter what the stat distribution, Exploit opening will ALWAYS give higher potential spike numbers provided you can crit.

Higher potential spike numbers at the COST of how often.

I did not say higher dps.

The highest potential spike damage is on a crit, expose opening does not make a crits any stronger.
The lowest potential spike damage is on a non crit, expose opening does not make a non-crit any stronger as long as the last hit was not a crit and within a few seconds.
So the highest and lowest spike damage potential is exactly the same, it's just the distribution between those two that is different with exploit opening.

When not taking care to do spike attacks only after a crit, the relative difference and distribution of spike attack damage is exactly the same as the dps differences (since dps is just measure of spike attacks over time).
To only way to improve the average damage of spike more than dps with expose opening, is by waiting for a crit before doing your spike attack.
But waiting for a crit is not something that works well for overal dps in most builds and situations.

Unknown · May 2015

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aiqa · May 2015

gradii wrote: »

They actually do make crits stronger. they don't SAY they do but they do.

That would be a pretty big bug.
Luckily it's easily testable, slapped together build on PTS with sniper.

Non-crit without expose opening: 3486
Non-crit with expose opening: 4379
Crit without expose opening: 7081
Crit with expose opening: 7081

helbjorn · May 2015

I should clarify, my tests were done in the PH, rather than on paper, using an EGO/DEX NW build which uses FotT and Killer Instinct (hybrid melee/ranged build). For that reason, I pushed DEX more than I normally would, ending up with about 300 EGO and 280 DEX.

Final character sheet stats (not including Focused Strikes, etc.) were 40% crit chance, 115% crit sev., 11% Offense.

Tests were done on a PH regen dummy and were simulations of Gravitar runs (continuous maintains of Assault Rifle with AO cycling, LnL and ES/NM).

The average of multiple parses with either EO or SS demonstrated a clear margin of 10-12% for EO with this particular setup. So yeah, this was definitely biased toward EO stat-wise, but stats in this range are not at all difficult to obtain with an EGO/DEX build.

IMO, you'd have to gimp your build pretty badly for EO not to come out well ahead in an EGO/DEX build.

aiqa · May 2015

helbjorn wrote: »

*snip*

The nice thing about crits and offense, is that there is no diminishing returns at all, so you can easily and precisely calculate things. With your stats you would do 5.12% higher overall single target damage than with no spec at all. The only way you can get close to a 10% overall damage increase is by doing AoE attacks that hit 5 targets. And of course those numbers would be a bit lower when comparing to sixth sense.

Maybe exploit opening has some effects on bleed or poison or dots, are you using any of those?

/edit
Bleed en poison are not effected, but some dot attack are effected (works with mental storm and ego sprites, but not with hex of suffering), stuff like sigils and lightning balls and firesnake are not effected.

Like so many things in CO, when you test things a little extensively they end up being buggy.

helbjorn · May 2015

The test runs were exactly as I described, AR only with AO cycling for about 90 seconds on the regen dummy. No AoE, no DoT's. The results were very consistent and reproducible.

As you well know, there are reasons for having separate fields of theoretical and experimental x,y, and z.

aiqa · May 2015

There is a difference between theoretical and experimental when there is stuff we are not taking into account. In the case of exploit opening taking everything that matters into account is not that hard.

After some testing, it seems I (and the spec description) was wrong about the 30% thing, exploit opening adds a static 30% damage, not 30% of severity (so it's bugged in yet another way). But that only makes it worse.

rykus83 · August 2015

was wondering if anyone managed to get a celestial conduit build from all of this and if they did would you post it?

flowcyto · August 2015

rykus83 wrote: »

was wondering if anyone managed to get a celestial conduit build from all of this and if they did would you post it?

Here's one w/ AoPM. Should have plenty of energy options to help w/ heavy pulse-Conduit use (when I say 'pulse' I mean like a tap, but held for a beat longer- as Aqia and bluhman have outlined before):

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Super Stats:
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Endurance (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Glacier
Level 6: Healthy Mind
Level 9: Boundless Reserves
Level 12: Investigator
Level 15: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Negotiator
Level 21: Amazing Stamina

Powers:
Level 1: Shadow Bolt
Level 1: Shadow Embrace (Rank 2, Dark Displacement)
Level 6: Spirit Reverberation
Level 8: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Concentration
Level 14: Celestial Conduit (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Ego Sleep (Plagued by Nightmares)
Level 20: Illumination (Brilliance)
Level 23: Masterful Dodge
Level 26: Circle of Arcane Power (Rank 2)
Level 29: Ebon Ruin (Rank 2, Nyctophobia, Paranormal Paranoia)
Level 32: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 35:
Level 38:

Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations:
Intelligence: Preparation (2/2)
Intelligence: Enlightened (3/3)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Mastery: Intelligence Mastery (1/1)

Celestial Conduit - Looking for info and help

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