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Getting Defiance to... Work
insaneyack
Posts: 51 Arc User
So i have been struggling to get Defiance to work for me. When I get my constitution up to 300 it seems to get better, but when faced with multiple adversaries my characters melts like butter on the surface of the sun. I have a level 40 decked out in questionite Cyber Suit armor, I took it into the Battle Station and tackled a large group of baddies with invulnerability, then with defiance.The difference is pretty insane. The gear my character has is hardly tanking gear, but it evenly increases all my SS stats so I thought it would be useful to use in a comparison test.
Here is the video http://youtu.be/15Y8bhLVdmM
Sorry if the video sucks, it was my first one.
I have some questions...
Any assistance in understanding CO math, or concepts would be greatly appreciated.
As a side note I took on Frosticus with another character who had invulnerability. The character had legion gear in primary slots and Vigilante in secondaries. He took a ton of damage, I could never have survived without a healer.
Here is the video http://youtu.be/15Y8bhLVdmM
Sorry if the video sucks, it was my first one.
I have some questions...
- What does it take to get Defiance to function effectively when faced with groups of attackers?
- At what point is Defiance better than Invulnerability when fighting single, hard hitting bosses?
- According to... well mathematics, 18 * 6 is 108 and 108 + 42 = 150. So my character should have 150% resistance with 6 stacks of defiance. In reality it seems that 33% of the damage is still getting through. How do you reduce that 33% into something that can be self healed?
Any assistance in understanding CO math, or concepts would be greatly appreciated.
As a side note I took on Frosticus with another character who had invulnerability. The character had legion gear in primary slots and Vigilante in secondaries. He took a ton of damage, I could never have survived without a healer.
Post edited by insaneyack on
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For zero advantage points you can get 114% damage resistance plus tons of energy. But you have to know its weaknesses.
While Invulnerability is totally great for multiple minions and especially when you decide to NOT stat CON, nothing takes on high damage bosses like Defiance. But you need to be a little careful when you start at one stack. If you can say pop Masterful Dodge at the start you should be pretty safe.
ENERGY! It's where Defiance really shines. Energy = DPS/heals. Use that to your advantage but IMHO you better devote more energy to DPS than heals since if you lose aggro that means you lose energy -- a death spiral for a tank.
Energy Shield with Laser Knight meshes really well with Defiance. I sometimes skip blocking altogether when I have Laser Knight.
For gear, there's two ways. If you are Aggressive Stance/Best Defense you could just pile on more Defense (which helps your DPS too). Or I would suggest at least some Avoidance. Better to dodge 10% of the time for 50% less damage than to dodge 19% of the time and get 20% less. It helps your Masterful Dodge too.
P.S. 150% resistance = 1/(1+1.5) = 40% net damage 200% = 33%
If you want to survive that anyway, there are three basic options: increase your defense even more (active defense powers are the easiest way, but there are other powers that can provide some buffing), increase your healing, or defeat them first (trash mobs don't generally have a lot of health). How you prioritize those is up to you, though it's usually most effective to split your efforts, because you tend to hit diminishing returns in each category fairly fast.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
pantagruel01: I ran some tests and the results are inconsistent.
Defiance (6 Stacks at 18% per and defense adds 42% total of 150%)
Invulnerability (75% from invulnerability, 42% from defense total of 117%) [158pts resisted every time]
Given 2000 points of damage defiance should be allowing in 800 points or 40%
Given 2158 points of damage invulnerability should be allowing in 921 or 46%
There must be a missing variant somewhere, and I think it might be random whatever it is.
I can see a benefit to Defiance in that you can improve it's performance through stats where invulnerability is set in stone. The problem I think I am running into is that my con is not improving defiance enough to show a decisive advantage. Based on my current stats, Defiance and Invulnerability appear to be working in the same resistance range but with invulnerability ignoring 158pts of flat damage making it more desirable. I wish I could get hit harder by something in the battle station...The dang lasers are useless.
monsterdaddy I must believe that Defiance is awesome, as you are not alone in that opinion and it seems that 'veterans' of CO are in general agreement on that 'fact'. The energy return and lack of advantage points is terribly alluring so either this is some sort of practical joke all you experienced players enjoy playing on newbies or its the truth and I am unable to confirm your findings due to lack of proper gear.
From what I gathered from your post a multiple mob test is never going to go in favor of defiance. I understand that multiple mobs are easily mowed down, but at what point is defiance good enough to stand against a large group of mobs without melting like butter? Given that I can get the 6 stacks.
The character I made that video with has laser knight and I agree, it is a good advantage.
In regards to energy, I totally agree,energy is good for agro and heals, without it you can't do either. I used that energy regen 'spell' in my video just so I can ignore the energy issues when using power armor. Defiance provides a very decent energy return, enough to negate the need for the spell which is a pain in the butt to maintain in a fight where everyone and everything is moving. It is fine in Gravitar or Fire & Ice though...
OK time to show my ignorance... I don't know what you mean by this [Aggressive Stance/Best Defense]
If you mean hybrid build, I usually run in tank mode because I don't get bulwark or use the guardian tree. I have been following allot of Flowcyto's build directions. This is his build that I followed for the character in the video: http://powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse.html?v=10&n=&d=1347gPTMQUaS0M091009B0b7F009D039I009M0L940H9T039P019G08QG010000000000002siL43A63UbT
I can add more avoidance, that seems like a good idea regardless of the defense passive I get.
thank You both!
[EDIT: Sorry bluegrassbeast I did not see your post when I started my reply. I will look into adding the shadow shield power with voracious appetite, anything to increase a defiant survival chance, although I will miss laser shield... Thanks for your post!]
It refers to specializations, which you actually do have in your posted build. Aggressive Stance is in Vindicator; The Best Defense is in either Guardian or Warden. Together, they feed Offense/Defense into one another in a loop.
3 things:
#1 Every number on the tooltip is a rounded integer; the actual value used in damage calculations is a decimal. I'm unsure whether it's rounded up, down, or to the nearest...but it means that there's typically a minor difference between what you calculate and the actual result.
#2 Were you in Tank role when you recorded those damage values? Tank role adds another 10% to your Resist layer (additive with the percentage from Defense and your resistance-based passive).
#3 Was your Phalanx Defense System active when you recorded some values, but not for others? PDS adds roughly 10.5% resistance (as best as I can estimate, give or take 0.5%) to your Block layer (separate from the Resist layer mentioned in #2).This old post I made about Voracious Darkness might help clarify the multi-layer math.
Let's apply those 3 points to a couple of the Defiance values you listed:
Based on the spread of percentages in your sample set, I'm going to guess that this one was recorded when Phalanx Defense System was not active.
Damage Taken = Base Damage / (1+Resist) / (1+Block)
738 = 1900 / (1+Resist) / (1+0)
Resist = 1.57 = 157%
Reverse-engineering that a little further...
157 = 42 (from Defense) + 10 (from Tank) + (6 x Defiance)
Defiance = 17.5
My guess is that your Defiance is giving slightly less than 18% per stack, and the tooltip display is rounding that decimal.
I'm guessing that this one was recorded when Phalanx Defense System was active.
Damage Taken = Base Damage / (1+Resist) / (1+Block)
692 = 1966 / (1+Resist) / (1+0.105)
Resist = 1.57 = 157%
Does that make sense?
2k base dmg isn't really a 'heavy hit'- its closer to trash-mob lvl dmg in an Alert, and that's where Invuln shines. I am not completely sure what mob or dmg ur referencing here, though. It doesn't seem to be one of the lasers since the highest is (iirc) 1.5k base dmg every time. Mob dmg ranges will be variable, as you've seen.
Anyways, I think the calc error ur making here is assuming Invuln's flat dmg shield shaves off of the base dmg. It actually shaves off of the final dmg taken- which is why its so good for small hits (and allows ya to get '1' dmg numbers popping up when solo) and why Invuln can work a bit better w/ dodge/avoid (though dodge/avoid isn't necc the best way to go w/ it). The numbers will also not quite match what's expected if you were running Phalanx Defense System or Tank role during this test (edit: yeah as Carrion said there).
I'd say if ya want more survival w/ Defiance, aside from changing the block (can't use Laser Knight in a Ranged build), stat even more Con, use the R1 MD + R3 Unbreakable combo (instead of Resurgence + Unbreakable), and get another heal instead of Resurgence that's not on the shared AD cd (like Bionic Shielding, BCR, Ascension, and/or Conviction). CoPD is another option that I'd heavily consider for Gravitar in particular. The build looks to be quite open so ya have many options ya could use here, but I'll let others chime in since I'm not much of a min-max'er when it comes to tank builds.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Yes, that does make sense and explains the odd variance. I was constantly running reconstructing circuits while using defiance and I may have run it while in invulnerability. What I find odd is that invulnerability seemed to have higher resistance than defiance even though it's resistance values should have been lower.
Thank you for that clarification!
Thank you
Flowcyto Its in the battle station, purple people eaters, the one with the big fedora. I waited until he did that big single shot and recorded the results.
You are correct, I was removing it from the gross value, not from the net value after the resistance was applied. That would put things into perspective... If only I could summon Grond to the battle station for testing purposes.
I really appreciate the feedback, I think you both have helped clarify my understanding of the damage and resistance values.
While I hate to go against concepts, I may need to look into voracious darkness and the darkness shield if I intend to go with defiance for the sake of surviving alerts. A very interesting read Carrionbaggage, thank you for that.
I am going to drop reconstruction and get conviction so I can test out the results.
Thanks again, you two are awesome.
Edit: Sorry not Laser Knight, Phalanx Defense.
In any case, defiance should be plenty for alerts. If you're having problems surviving, you're probably having issues with aggro management or damage output, not toughness.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Invulnerability: Ignore 158 pts (71% resistance)
Defiance: 6 Stacks of 18% (ish) resistance (108%)
Using laser testing
-=Invulnerability=-
Base Damage 1500
Assumed Actual Damage: 677
Minus Invulnerability flat rate: 519
Actual Damage Resisted: 55%
The damage minus invulnerability's flat rate ranged between 516 and 519 so this was fairly consistent.
-=Defiance=-
Base Damage 1500
Actual Damage: 585
Damage Resisted: 61%
Strange abnormality:
Base Damage 1500
Actual Damage: 469
Damage Resisted: 69%
The damage resisted deviated from +-585 and +-469. I did not have a block, so I am at a loss as to why it varied.
I am thinking I should go get some silver star gear, and test out con heavy gear mods (Will use 4s so I can rip em out easily.) The issue that I see at the moment is defiance is only shaving off another 6% damage minimally which means that for a 10k hit, an invulnerability tank will take about 350 pts more damage, 150 pts at 5k damage and at 3k they almost balance out but defiance is slightly better. Assuming my health is increased a bit to say 13k, currently it is at 11.2k (don't judge meh!). The largest hit I could take with invulnerability is 28.5k and with defiance it would be about 33k.
So... Defiance is great in a boss fights with godzilla, but not with a gaggle of thugs. I am going to see if I can get darkness shield to do some wonder for me...
You are correct, Flowcyto pointed that out as well. I have corrected my numbers. I don't actually have any trouble with agro, my damage output is the same if I use invulnerability or defiance but I could try slotting for dex or ego to increase my damage. I am going to get some silver star gear to test with. Thank you for the feedback pantagruel01
Did you dodge? Base avoidance is 20%, so if you did dodge... 585 x (1-0.2) = 468 (could've been rounded to 469)
Just curious, but are you testing on the Test Server? Or on Live?
I slotted only con mods, my con ended up at 631. Total defense was 259, which translated to 61% resistance.
Invulnerability ignored 164 pts of damage and resists 75% + 61% from defense = (2.36) 1500/2.36 = 635 - 164 = 471.5
Actual tests resulted in +-452 pts of damage.
Defiance provided 20% resistance per stack for a total of 120% + 61% from defense = (2.81) 1500/2.81 = 533.8
Actual tests resulted in +-520 pts of damage
Reducing my con to 518 still netted the 20% damage resistance (Per Carrionbaggage, the system is probably rounding down to get to the 20. ) At 460 con the resistance dropped to 19% so there is a sweet spot somewhere in between 460 and 518. The extra 12% resistance translates to .12 divisor or if its easier to think about it, it reduces a hit from 1500 points to 12500 points.
Anyone know where I can test alert level survivability outside of an alert? I want to test out a character against similar content to see if I can get my tank to survive / thrive with defiance.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
So I copied over a character to the test server like 6 times with all of my drifter salvage so I could actually afford a set of justice gear. He already had the vigilante gear set, and then he had some mix matched primary gear, 1 piece of legion and 2 mercenary pieces. The gear was slotted with int,con and dex because those were the characters ss. I just left them in because I forgot to check them, I respeced into my power armor build and went down and fought the big groups in the battle station. My con was 378, still showed as 18% resistance. I got the darkness shield along with voracious. I fully expected to get plowed over, but for some reason it was a total breeze. I even reset the stats from con/int/rec to con/int/ego to get some extra damage, with defiance in place, and the shield it was like I was godzilla, I just stomped all over those guys. I suspect that the shield bonuses are the cause, but it might be the increased con too.
With the set of justice gear, slotted with mostly con some int and one ego. It was not a challenge, I dropped the con from 518 to 460 and didn't see any significant change. I dropped con down to 403 and added more ego, I didn't use the shield I just used masterful dodge and they were all dead before I hit 5 stacks of defiant. The group after that died in similar fashion, and again I didn't really need the shield at all.
All in all I am uncertain why everything suddenly changed, if the questionite gear really sucks that bad compared to the vigilante gear or if its something to do with constitution hitting some sort of sweet spot. I will buy some questionite gear and swap it in to see what the difference might be. Thanks for everyone's help on this endeavor.
The performance diff is prob a combo of the gear upgrade, higher Con, and VD.. though VD can have the most dramatic effect of them.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
How does your Defense with the new gear compare to the old gear?
Make yourself a character with defiance. Get to some arbitrary level like 10 or 20, whatever. Go pick a serious fight and see how bad it hurts, then try it without defiance, no defense at all. The results will be so close at to be the same.
If you just want to have defiance then my suggestion is to level with a real defense that will actually enable you to stay standing in a fight, then at max level when you have all the active defenses and super gear that can make defiance do something then respec over.
Alternately if you want the leveling experience of getting beat down on every alert until you get every piece of super gear, then pick up defiance and feel the pain.
Ya do need more maintenance healing w/ Defiance vs. the others in 5-man content, since it lacks Invuln's dmg shield for trash mobs, Regen and PFF's natural regen, and the BCR/RR + LR combo. 5-man content typically doesn't have mobs that hit hard enough for Defiance to shine above Invuln either. Doesn't make Defiance bad in that content- just not ideal. If ya add in a heal like Conviction, an AD, and stack some Con.. Defiance will do just fine even in 5-man content where its not the best passive to have.
The other part of it is that ur toon is much more squishy at low level regardless of build- w/ less stats, less spec points, less powers, and less advs available. Gear grows somewhat exponentially after lvl 30 or so, and the diff between performance at, say, lvl 20 and lvl 38 can be enormous for many builds.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!