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Upcoming Costume Set Changes, Discussions/Questions

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  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,764 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Too early to tell. If we only see 1000z sets from now on, then that will be a problem. Of we see a regular release of emblem packs along with the other stuff, I'm on board with it.

    Like I said: it would be a real shame if all we saw were 1000z packs...a real...shame.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Where has this supposed value been added for gold members? I suppose that is a subjective matter, but I haven't seen it. The same goes for the alleged increase in polish/quality. Many of the latest costume sets have had terrible clipping. With most of the costumes being above 500 zen, gold membership have lost some value to their sub. (*imo*)

    People have to effectively beg in chat for random players to join rampages. While private queues are possibly cutting into the amount available for pugs, the low drop rate for the rewards is also a problem.

    The costs for items in the Z-store were already a joke, this just makes it even more of a joke.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sterga wrote: »
    CO doesn't run on happy thoughts and good intentions.

    Pretty much.

    Products get more expensive over time (usually). Even if a digital product doesn't face rising costs on raw materials a company will face rising costs to maintain their work force, on their property, utilities, etc.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I hope that the next step is to rebalance the price of consumables, largely downward.

    Most consumable items are not purchased at all, but cutting the prices in half for things like healing clickies, Heroic Comeback, sidekicks, etc., would make them appealing.
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  • foxypersonfoxyperson Posts: 251 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Too early to tell. If we only see 1000z sets from now on, then that will be a problem.

    Well, they're asking 600 for the half-assed doctor costume, so do the math.

    They want to make twice the money for the same game while producing as little as possible (if at all). Customer loyalty is something that has to be earned AND MAINTAINED, because it can likewise be lost.

    It's hilarious how Cryptic finally crossed the line and turned their game into something akin to an exploitative relationship [Edited from "abusive" to "exploitative", and removed other pieces. -TrailTurtle.]

    Dear Cryptic... I'm relieved to say that I no longer need a Foundry from this game, because after this, it would amount to taking that last test for that course you're going to fail anyway no matter the test's results.
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,307 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I hope that the next step is to rebalance the price of consumables, largely downward.

    Most consumable items are not purchased at all, but cutting the prices in half for things like healing clickies, Heroic Comeback, sidekicks, etc., would make them appealing.
    I don't think any pricing is going to be going down.
  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I saw that.

    I'm still waiting for progress on something I actually give a **** about. Lockboxes and one-off raids ain't it.

    Ok, I am somewhat with you on this but just because it's not the things you specifically want then that doesn't mean nothing is happening. I, personally, would love to see CO use Gateway Station as a mission hub to kick off Seasons, Alternate Advancement Systems, and a Rep Zone. This system, IMO, works quite well in STO and could be adapted to work in CO. Now, as you may have noticed, that hasn't happened...but stuff did. I rather liked Steel Crusade with the exception of a performance issue in one mission and what I consider a design mistake in it's ending. Still, it was content. It is still there. There are nice things to be had from it. It's CONTENT. Not to mention it brought MECHANON into CO(something Old Cryptic was afraid to do all this time).

    And then The Rampage Review happened. For a time people ran rampages. They still run them although not as much and, the best part, it's for optional gear or just to get some costume unlocks and auras. Keep in mind that Fire and Ice sat on PTS for over a year because Old Cryptic couldn't make it work...and Cryptic North made it happen.

    Even the QoL Changes so far of this year, while mostly not all affecting me, are solid things that needed to happen(In some cases ages ago).

    So...I do not believe the issue here is Stuff. Stuff has been happening. Do I want more Stuff more frequently? Sure. You cannot, however, argue that Stuff isn't happening just because it's not the specific Stuff you want.

    ...but, I do not think you're entirely wrong on wanthing Stuff for you. I would also love to see a "State of The Game" which has some Stuff for me. :wink:

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Nor normally I'm above such things but, this time, I'll make an exception...just for you.
    foxyperson wrote: »
    Well, they're asking 600 for the half-assed doctor costume, so do the math.
    Ok, fair enough. This set is pretty horrid(I do not own it).
    foxyperson wrote: »
    It's hilarious how Cryptic finally crossed the line and turned their game into something akin to an abusive relationship with a deadbeat, alcoholic husband.
    1. Drama Much? This post sounds more like a Lifetime Movie than a valid point.
    2. So the final straw on the camel's back is costume pricing? I think it's ill timed and should have been put in the middle of a sandwhich made of a "State of The Game" and a Tailor/Creator/Costume Pass. In this case, I suspect these price changes barely would have been an issue. Course, I also think your own posting history could benefit from a sandwhich of...well...anything that isn't a gloom and doom commercial for another video game brought on by Textbook Bitter CoXer Syndrome.
    foxyperson wrote: »
    you're going to fail anyway
    So, is this how the "Spiritual Successors" are going to make their money? Coming to CO and ENDLESSLY going on and on and on with a cocktail of doom, gloom, and advertising? Make no mistake about it, you've pretty much been a broken record about this garbage since your recent return to the forums. It's not clever. It's not a master plan. It's transparent and, IMO, you do the actual nice refugees a grand disservice with these actions. If this game actually causes you this much sorrow you could always try to get into the closed alpha on some game that may or may not ever see the light of day. I'm guessing they would marvel at your enthusiasm for their project and be more than happy to have you...until you realize their game isn't CoX and subject them to the same routine.
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  • hyperstrikecohhyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sterga wrote: »
    CO doesn't run on happy thoughts and good intentions.

    CO hasn't "run" in years. It's basically been shot in both legs and has been gimping along, accomplishing nothing much while taking in how much money?

    So pardon me if I'm quite naturally suspicious and distrustful.

    I'm not one to "rah rah" a group that's delivered next to nothing.
  • hyperstrikecohhyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    crosschan wrote: »
    So...I do not believe the issue here is Stuff. Stuff has been happening. Do I want more Stuff more frequently? Sure. You cannot, however, argue that Stuff isn't happening just because it's not the specific Stuff you want.

    I'm not saying "stuff" isn't happening.

    I'm saying that most of it is, in effect, paper shuffling. Not "development".

    And while I'm glad people are happy with some of the "events". At the end of the day, once the events are over, it's back to the same old status quo.
  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Steel Crusade and Rampage Review were not "Events" though. Neither was Fatal Error(mostly, that end bit is in the Alerts Rotation). Lemurian Invasion, Forum Malvanum, and Foxbatcon were events....but if they got improvements and happened again then it wouldn't be "too bad" IMO. Also, keep in mind 2 of those were basically done by one poor underappreciated guy left alone for a time to helm the ship and they still turned out "ok-ish."

    Also, because I run into this alot of the time with similar conversations, have you actually done EVERYTHING in CO? I know I haven't.....yet.
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  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,439 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    We never really got to the point where there's always some kind of event up in circulation. When a yearly event goes down another would come up to take it's place with a few more things added to it each time.

    In fact the opposite would happen when a yearly event comes up by removing rewards. (Nighthawk Utility belt doesn't drop because why?)

    Making Crybermind's finale an Alert was a mistake. Never updating Grab the Money to have appealing rewards is a mistake. Designing the Rampage Revamp purposefully into a dead end was a mistake. Making Mechanon's introduction finale a yearly open mission is a horrible mistake. Making said finale replace Dr. Destroyer's return event was a lazy mistake.

    Everything designed by Cryptic since On Alert's inception has been incomplete while showing how the team doesn't really understand what makes new content feel appealing as a whole. They seem to lack or simply don't understand/learn why their updates fail. There is no semblance of consistency anywhere let alone attaining a level of quality expected of a multimillion dollar group. Or maybe they just don't care.


    They've asked for more from their customers with promises of achieving greatness if we come through for them. We provided many times and they still haven't delivered. Free for All and lock boxes reported substantially high profits that warranted dramatic content updates. Instead they used that to start NWO and divert resources to reinvest into STO, respectively.

    Cryptic simply doesn't deserve getting paid more for their costume sets, because it doesn't deliver what they claim it does. But that won't stop them from getting it because they at least know they have a great product (all provided up until On Alert) that doesn't need maintenance or real expansions. A nearly 100% profit is pretty appealing.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    crosschan wrote: »
    Also, because I run into this alot of the time with similar conversations, have you actually done EVERYTHING in CO? I know I haven't.....yet.
    There is, in fact, enough stuff to do that I can now level a toon all the way to 40 and never have to go to Lemuria (lovely to look at, but horribly designed for most of my toons).
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited March 2015
    Cryptic simply doesn't deserve getting paid more for their costume sets, because it doesn't deliver what they claim it does.

    Lol?

    Nope.

    People doing 3dmotive work on costumes deserve to be paid for their work regardless if they're working for Cryptic or any other company.

    CO pricing of entire costume sets was below of both other Cryptic games and other PWE games. Except CO costumes are more labor consuming because of number of parts to model, rig and texture.

    So it was obvious that sooner or later the prices will go up. We had it coming.


    Besides, what is actually priced on this list is precisely how much effort it takes to model and texture things. That's this "quality" TT was writing about. His wording could be more precise, though. Older sets were simplicistic, the same about full-body tights packs with simple generic designs on them.


    This thread quickly reaches level of an entitled whining.


    Funny, how people demand better quality of models, but at the same tame they're basically refusing funding people working at models.


    3d is expensive. And with time it will be even more expensive.
  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    jonsills wrote: »
    There is, in fact, enough stuff to do that I can now level a toon all the way to 40 and never have to go to Lemuria (lovely to look at, but horribly designed for most of my toons).

    I know I have been lvling a guy and besides a quick travel on vehicle or the Nemesis gear. I haven't user any double xp or speed leveling with alerts. I'm lvl 27 and I will try and do every contacts missions in order and use crime computer for every eligible missions.....and it is takening FOREVER!

    But it is plenty of content seeing how I am not even to Monster Island and I have been lvling about twice as long if I wasn't vehicle/alert leveling.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    foxyperson wrote: »
    It's hilarious how Cryptic finally crossed the line and turned their game into something akin to an abusive relationship with a deadbeat, alcoholic husband.

    That is a disgusting comparison. Have you known women who have been abused? I have. Did you know that many women join the Navy to get away from abuse in their lives? Some of my co-workers did. You have no business comparing $10 to something so horrific as spousal abuse. Further more, comparing terrorists to $10 is equally disgusting.

    If you think a costume set is crap, don't buy it. Let's be realistic here, there aren't a whole lot of people developing CO and things are going to go slow. It's not possible for them to get to everything everyone wants right now or maybe ever.
    CO hasn't "run" in years. It's basically been shot in both legs and has been gimping along, accomplishing nothing much while taking in how much money?

    So pardon me if I'm quite naturally suspicious and distrustful.

    I'm not one to "rah rah" a group that's delivered next to nothing.

    What? Really? Because I logged in last night and helped a buddy get to level 20. I saw a bunch of other people on as well. Clearly it is running.

    I don't know what kind of miracles you are expecting from the devs, but CO has received more development in the last few years than the few years before it. Things that people have been asking for became reality. And it actually looks like there is a plan for CO's future that isn't maintenance mode or closure.

    Frankly, I can't even imagine being a new programmer for a game that's been out for years with a proprietary system. Which is what Cryptic North is comprised of. That's millions of lines of code to learn. That has to take years to figure out. Coupled with the small staff working on CO? Plus with hints at how bad the code was built and after seeing some of the hacks to get things working?

    It has less to do with cheerleading and more to do with realizing how much work it takes to update this game.


    BTW: Devs are human. Which means they make mistakes. It's easy to say things are a mistake after they happen, but no so much if it's something that's never been done before. Looks like some of those mistakes are being fixed. Developers make games because they are passionate about making games. If they didn't care, I bet they could get jobs with better pay and treatment in another industry.
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  • bazodeebazodee Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    3D work is labour intensive, but I sincerely hope their designers/devs are being paid industry norm or above industry norm for their work. If they aren't then I hope Cryptic has a lot more resources to use to take care of that problem than a price hike on costumes.

    This, however, in no way detracts from my customer experience/expectations (whining to some). As a consumer, I do expect quality where my money is spent. I can of course shrug it off and say at least I can grind to my hearts content and I still have lots of rewards to gather. And who doesn't like shiny little things, right? I like the game, that's why I committed to it.

    I'm still not on board with the fixes to the disparity on the price/value communicated as an "structural" improvements.

    Where is your bug report list? What has been updated? What is still to be tackled? As already asked on another thread, what is coming in 2015? Where is your marketeer/PR/Comm person?

    Come on now, how long has this game been in existence, stop running it like a mom and pop shop.
    I don't like Sigs, but I'll leave this here anyway. At least I'm not to trying to hypnotise you with moving things!
  • neuraldamageneuraldamage Posts: 590 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Really? In the past month, Cryptic has put a resource cap unlock in C-Store, and reversed the limited tailor for new accounts. And we managed to lobby for those without throwing any childish tantrums.

    Wrong. It only took 2+ years of throwing childish tantrums. These changes are not exactly "out of the blue".

    People are broken. - Lum the Mad
  • neuraldamageneuraldamage Posts: 590 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sterga wrote: »
    I normally like to think the people I play games with are adults, but that clearly isn't the case here. Whining over 10 whole dollars. Wow. Unbelievable.
    '

    It's the principle, not the money. Sheesh.

    People are broken. - Lum the Mad
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    '

    It's the principle, not the money. Sheesh.
    In my experience, whenever people say, "It's not the money, it's the principle of the thing!" - it's the money.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • trailturtletrailturtle Administrator Posts: 5,496 Perfect World Employee
    edited March 2015
    draogn wrote: »
    Where has this supposed value been added for gold members? I suppose that is a subjective matter, but I haven't seen it.

    The main value-add that I referred to was the monthly gold rewards. There are also other indirect value-adds that come from new items and content being added to the game.

    Too early to tell. If we only see 1000z sets from now on, then that will be a problem. Of we see a regular release of emblem packs along with the other stuff, I'm on board with it.

    Like I said: it would be a real shame if all we saw were 1000z packs...a real...shame.

    Nah, won't be just 1000Z. We're going to be very careful that only the best sets end up in that tier.

    Emblems: Dubious. We may do some occasionally, but since the default price is 50Z for a one-time purchase, selling new packs like that doesn't make financial sense. If we do end up doing more emblems, I'd lobby for them to be things like exclusive promotions ("Charge $X this weekend and get this!), Gold rewards, giveaways, something like that. We'd get more return from those than from selling them directly.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,717 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Hey TT! Any word yet on the promised fix to the stretchy scoundrel coat? Today or tomorrow?
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Hey TT! Any word yet on the promised fix to the stretchy scoundrel coat? Today or tomorrow?
    I would venture to guess Thursday, with the regular maintenance.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • trailturtletrailturtle Administrator Posts: 5,496 Perfect World Employee
    edited March 2015
    Yeah, I think it's going on PTS later today -- there's a ticket in to update PTS -- and if it passes muster on PTS, it'll go live this week on Thursday with maintenance.
  • bwdaresbwdares Posts: 1,517 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    sterga wrote: »
    CO doesn't run on happy thoughts and good intentions. Raising prices on fluff is better than the BS that was vehicles. "lfm for F&I. Must have Victorian Vest and Retro sci-fi boots." said no one ever. But we did have "lfm LI. Must have PB." The shift in making money with costume sets is a good change. Even vehicles have taken a vanity focus instead of making heroes irrelevant by grossly eclipsing their power.

    The new team has been slowly picking up speed and making much needed behind the scene changes. You may not give a damn about the global cap and tailor changes, but those are important updates for the future of the game. Demanding perfection and ignoring improvements because they aren't what you want to see while telling Cryptic they aren't allowed to charge prices on fluff that aren't stupid low is whiny and entitled.

    Either you are trolling or you missed most people's points. It is not about the specific price points or that we should get anything for free. There is no entitlement here or anything close to that. What this is about is the amount of pure BS drivel about these changes being about quality, when they obviously do not care about quality when we have told them things have been broken and they ignore our bug reports. If they were truly based on quality, the set like the Scientist one would not be set for 600zen.

    If CN would give us any actual indication of whats a head then you wouldn't see so many people angry about little things like this.

    People have been buying things as is and we have not had any really impressive additions to the game. I am sorry a hand full of missions and a space bar, while I think they look awesome, is really nothing in the long run right now. If it leads to something bigger, then they should give us something to go off of, but they don't. They tell us nothing.

    I just want to know if my money is going anywhere to this game minus keeping it on, because they have said several times that compared to other games this one is cheaper to keep running.
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  • kaosarcannakaosarcanna Posts: 124 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The main value-add that I referred to was the monthly gold rewards. There are also other indirect value-adds that come from new items and content being added to the game.




    Nah, won't be just 1000Z. We're going to be very careful that only the best sets end up in that tier.

    Emblems: Dubious. We may do some occasionally, but since the default price is 50Z for a one-time purchase, selling new packs like that doesn't make financial sense. If we do end up doing more emblems, I'd lobby for them to be things like exclusive promotions ("Charge $X this weekend and get this!), Gold rewards, giveaways, something like that. We'd get more return from those than from selling them directly.

    Any chance we might get some more cape emblems, designs, and styles? CO could use some more capes. :D
  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I love the argument being tossed about that we shouldn't criticize the game developers/publishers for business decisions they make because their jobs seem pretty hard. Seriously? My landscaper has a pretty difficult job sometimes, but doesn't mean I wouldn't speak up if they decided to raise their rate by 100% after doing pretty shoddy work for the past few months. That's not being "entitled", that's just being a rational consumer. If CN thinks their jobs are too hard, I'm sure they have plenty of other options. Just like players have other options on how to spend their $10.

    Sterga's point that (paraphrasing) at least they are focusing on making money from the cosmetic stuff now rather than overpowered vehicles weapons is well taken. It is probably a step in the right direction, or well, it would have been a step in the right direction a couple of years ago. The problem, as so many have stated, is that it's a price increase on old stuff with no corresponding increase in value, when new development has come to an apparent standstill and there's no compelling reason for a player to increase their investment in the game at this point. There's a pretty big gap between most of the expressions of dissatisfaction I've seen in this thread and the characterization of "demanding perfection/telling Cryptic they aren't allowed to charge prices on fluff".

    If you think the game is healthy and are happy with these decisions and the direction things are going, that's wonderful. The one thing that everyone IS entitled to is an opinion.
    LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,066 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    CO has a history of some really dubious business decisions. Two of them really stand out to me:

    Bad choice number 1 was offering lifetime subscriptions, for $200, at launch. That's only a good idea if your real plan is "take the money and run", because it's basically a bet that your players will get bored and leave in 13 months or less. To be fair, 'take the money and run' might have been the plan, since none of the people involved with that decision are involved with CO any more.

    Bad choice number 2 was the stipend system. Originally, there wasn't one. Then, someone had the bright idea that they could sell consumables in the C-store. This conflicted with a promise of "no Pay2Win", and to quiet down the uproar, they implemented a stipend system of $5/month. Including the LTS people, who I already mentioned were a problem (a system of 'package deals' where you get points and a subscription together at a discount wouldn't have been an issue).

    These consumables proceeded to sell like dogs because they were totally unnecessary (CO being quite easy even back then) and overpriced, and everyone used their stipends to buy costume parts. Which killed off the ability to sell costume sets for actual money. Which was the only way to make money off of the LTSers (remember bad choice 1?).

    I would say that these changes are largely a consequence of the above bad decisions.
  • foxypersonfoxyperson Posts: 251 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Yay, a whole paragraph [edited] and made to vanish. I'm glad finally one of my comments drove the point home to the extreme of being undeniable. Too bad no one else can read it now.

    I'll call that a win and stop being a blight to the fanboys. I'm out of this thread.
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 707 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Well, the Lifetime Subscription thing isn't quite as cut and dried as that. It's less of a bet that the player will get bored and leave, and more of a bet that that much money, invested somewhere, will in the long run net you more of a return than you'd get from a recurring subscription.

    I don't know if it's a bet that's been working out for them... but I guess if it wasn't, they'd have stopped selling lifetime subscriptions.
  • melphon1melphon1 Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I'm doing the only thing I really can do at this point: voting with my wallet.

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    (The verification code was a fun coincidence that helped sum up my feelings on the matter)


    Part of me is still hoping that this game (which I've supported wholeheartedly for that long, monetarily and vocally to friends) is still salvageable.

    As it is right now, I don't see it. This isn't a whine because I can't afford more money - this is the final tiny straw on a heavily overloaded camel's back.

    If the prices are rethought, if the constant server issues (both game server and chat server) are fixed, if Cryptic North make themselves known and show us what they're working on, if we stop having the only visible person on the dev team tell us that some glass slippers make our monthly subs worthwhile... then maybe I'll throw some money into the pot again.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,066 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    morigosa wrote: »
    Well, the Lifetime Subscription thing isn't quite as cut and dried as that. It's less of a bet that the player will get bored and leave, and more of a bet that that much money, invested somewhere, will in the long run net you more of a return than you'd get from a recurring subscription.
    A good rate of return on $200 is about $1 per month. It's a bet on how long people will continue playing.
    morigosa wrote: »
    I don't know if it's a bet that's been working out for them... but I guess if it wasn't, they'd have stopped selling lifetime subscriptions.
    LTS is more expensive, and there are enough recurring deals on regular subs that it's closer to 25x the monthly than 13x. And yes, it's still a bet on how long people will keep playing.

    It's important to remember: game companies don't release updates in gratitude for the money you gave them in the past. They do it in the hopes you'll give them money in the future.
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 707 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Oddly, the thing that most bugs me about this change turns out to be just that it is a change. I've gotten in the habit of not spending my stipend, just letting the z accumulate, and only buying a new z-store costume set when I have a particular outfit that needs it.

    The change makes me want to actually spend z now, betting on which of the sets that are seeing price increases I'll actually want to use. Once the change has gone live, well, then I'll be back to stockpiling z and only buying things when I have a specific immediate need for, say, a glove pattern from elemental asymmetry tights (or whatever).
  • carbonifercarbonifer Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    foxyperson wrote: »
    Yay, a whole paragraph [edited] and made to vanish. I'm glad finally one of my comments drove the point home to the extreme of being undeniable. Too bad no one else can read it now.

    Oh you are lucky, i got my whole post removed altogether, it looks some here have more right than others to be off-topic :biggrin:

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  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    jonsills wrote: »
    In my experience, whenever people say, "It's not the money, it's the principle of the thing!" - it's the money.

    Nah, I've got money enough to handle this game. For me, it's principle 9 times out of ten. Let's see...

    -Never bought Steampunk Cyborg(in fairness the playerbase won there and I earned the bits I was missing ingame)
    -Never bought those Emblem kits...still ugly.
    -Still Gold due to multiple issues encountered with LTS and those "darker spots" in the development cycle...aka when nothing was happening.
    -Still haven't bought Mad Scientist...waiting on it to get "not horrible."

    Did shell out for some more costume slots last week though...cause I'm an addict like that.
    There are also other indirect value-adds that come from new items and content being added to the game.

    Please ellaborate on the portion in red and how it is a direct addition to value for GOLD Members please. I dunno....maybe put it into a nice State of The Game? :wink:
    __________________________________________________________________________

    pantagruel01:

    1. LTS was ok to me because it was an interesting angle that I had not previously encountered. However, with most things Old Cryptic, it was IMO handled quite poorly. I still remember in 2009 when they "Ran out."

    2. AO has successfully used stipends for ages now. Stipends can work. You want to get rid of the excess Zen sitting around being generated by stipends then it's actually quite simple to do right now. You make a costume set, as usual, and then release one put together out of the stuff collecting dust in the Live Files. Between Costume Sets and Weapon Geo Sets from that source you could easily double the release schedule of vanity items into CO for a year with very little actual additional work(maybe some bug testing here and there).

    Ontop of that, to add more play value to the actual mission content in the game you could put all the Unlocks lost with On Alert back into the game exactly where they were previously(converting alot of them into unlocks, of course). This, IMO, gets froobs/golds/LTS to roll a new toon, run more missions(more people ingame is more chances they'll buy stuff), and ups the amount of people in the game if they missed alot of this stuff before On Alert.

    IMO, the stipend both can work in this game and can be better controlled. I, personally, am not a fan of there being a 600Z Tier on costume and not a 500z because it doesn't seem to fit well into the overall system cuts the value of my stipend, which I don't get for free(it is a nice bonus, don't get me wrong, but I do still pay my sub) from picking up 1 thing I might want on a certain schedule to it just being out of reach without additional cash which will lead me moreso to a consideration phase than a kneejeck purchase.
    __________________________________________________________________________

    Others:

    If your post was edited/removed/whatever then consider trying to be more tactful. It is entirely possible to disagree with people on these forums without being brash, confrontational, or a blatant bitter commercial for another game. When it's all said and done, when this thread is a memory, when/if something new comes down the pipeline....most of us will still have to play the game together. The worst that can come of this change, IMO, is that people buy less costume sets. :biggrin:
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  • carbonifercarbonifer Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    crosschan wrote: »

    If your post was edited/removed/whatever then consider trying to be more tactful. It is entirely possible to disagree with people on these forums without being brash, confrontational, or a blatant bitter commercial for another game. When it's all said and done, when this thread is a memory, when/if something new comes down the pipeline....most of us will still have to play the game together. The worst that can come of this change, IMO, is that people buy less costume sets. :biggrin:

    I cannot more agree.

    Then tell me why our posts have been removed/edited, when a certain non-tactful someone has not been edited wereas calling others whiners/lamers/immatures/disgusting, etc, whereas they are just stating their opinion or trying refocus the debate in an -indeed- more tactful way? Some are allowed to be non-tactful and some are not, obviously. Can i feel some COMPLACENCY here?:rolleyes:

    Either remove everything, or remove nothing.
  • gerberatetragerberatetra Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    .

    And yes, increasing the price will result in fewer units sold; Economics 101. That doesn’t mean that overall sales are going to decrease, though, or that we’re going to alienate new players. If we thought either of those were the case, we wouldn’t be doing this. With all the data we have, we’ve investigated and come to the conclusion that this is a net benefit. While anecdotal experience is useful in deciding these kinds of things, having back-end data lets us make fully-informed decisions – especially about groups like new players, who tend to be underrepresented on forums and in chat.

    Translation-

    We don't give a %*#% what you on the forums think.


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  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    carbonifer wrote: »
    I cannot more agree.

    Then tell me why our posts have been removed/edited, when a certain non-tactful someone has not been edited wereas calling others whiners/lamers/immatures/disgusting, etc, whereas they are just stating their opinion or trying refocus the debate in an -indeed- more tactful way? Some are allowed to be non-tactful and some are not, obviously. Can i feel some COMPLACENCY here?:rolleyes:

    Either remove everything, or remove nothing.

    As a regular forum user I just use that as my own personal "COA"(Cover Own Arse) approach to avoid such issues. While I see where you are coming from I am more concerned with myself in these discussions than I am with that lil Timmy down the street can get away with that I cannot. It might not be an "ideal" approach for most...but it does tend to work for me. :wink:
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  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Posts: 525 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The main value-add that I referred to was the monthly gold rewards. There are also other indirect value-adds that come from new items and content being added to the game.

    After seeing what we got after getting our own "dedicated" Dev team, I can't really say that I'm expecting anything from a price increase. Especially on something like costumes, since the last few (player designed, by the way) set were how ALL costume sets should have been from the get go.

    I'm not trying to put down the work of CN, but a lot of things seemed to be in the works long before CN took the reigns. I enjoyed a lot of what has been released, but it's not really enough to justify raising the prices on something just because it's popular. Unpopular changes aren't a great idea when there are two other COH homage games in the works, one of which has already been passed on steam greenlight.


    I like this game, I want to support this game, but I just can't validate it if the quality isn't there. You've already told us no new powersets, now you're telling us any decent costume set is now going to be $10 each. I'm not really seeing an upside here. More so since some people are still actually paying monthly fees on this game.
  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Unpopular changes aren't a great idea when there are two other COH homage games in the works, one of which has already been passed on steam greenlight.

    Just wanted to chime in real quick and thank you for this post. I have not, honestly, laughed that hard at a forum post in a very very long time. Steam Greenlight does have some solid games but for 2014 it was a no-standards example of some of the worst examples of gaming. Using that as an attempt at an actual leverage point makes me far more apprehensive than actually curious to look into something.

    I do not mean this to invalidate your opinion since you have the right to an opinion here just as I do(just not that particular point cause it's pretty laughable at best)...just I found this literally laugh out loud hilarious and could not resist replying. Thank goodness I wasn't drinking a hot beverage at the time. :biggrin:

    Also, please, enough with the Spiritual Successor Commercials. Just to be perfectly clear there is ONE Spiritual Successor in 2015 and it involves a little robot boy with a gun arm. :cool:
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  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Just got internet back, and oh man. guess I missed something. A few points:

    1: For god's sake, stop telling people they're entitled if they suggest 10 bucks might be overpriced. That's not entitlement, that's people exercising their given right to disagree with a major change. Seriously, stop it with the ad hominems, you're not disproving their arguments at ALL by saying they're entitled. You're just proving that you lack a good defense that isn't based around "NO U". I mean, sure. Defend the change. But arguing a price increase of over 200% in some cases? That's not entitlement, that's a justifiable question.

    2: 600z tier is a jerk move. A stipend is 500z, are you *seriously* going to make the average level costume take more than a month of stipend to buy? Jerk move, guys. A lot of people subscribe under the idea that you get a stipend that at least lets you buy a costume set every month. Making the average costume out of reach of that? I see a lot of "gold isn't worth it" arguments kicking around, and you just took away my biggest counter. Hell, given the recent changes I'm having a hard time justifying why the hell I got my LTS a few months ago. My vehicles got nerfed and now I have to wait multiple months to get a single costume set with my stipend.

    Also, have you looked at that Halloween bundle? It's a bundle in name only. A set of tights, a couple hats, and half a costume set. There is NO WAY that thing is worth 1000z. Heck, I never felt it was worth 475.

    3: The next person to call lifers freeloaders is getting donkey punched. The mental gymnastics some of y'all have to go through to consider someone who blew 2-300 bucks on the game a freeloader is mystifying to me. Just at the gate, lifers have spent more than most players ever will, so give that crap a rest huh?
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I'm calling people "entitled" if they're "threatening" to quit this utterly free game over the cost of fripperies they don't actually need (and yes, there have been a couple of posts to that effect).

    As a lifer, I'm no more thrilled over this price increase than anyone else, but I try to maintain a sense of proportion about it. I mean, it's not like they're charging $60 for a monocle that nobody but you is ever going to see...
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  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Point: If they're paying for a sub the game isn't utterly free to them.

    Just, you know. 2 cents there. I like that they're trying to monetize things a bit better, but the costuming IS the game to a lot of people. If they're barely hanging on as is, because this is an avatar chat to them? I can see it.

    Personally, I've got an ever growing concern (have since the dodge nerfs) that we're seeing a slow devaluing of a lot of facets of the game, without much benefit being added. character power level was nerfed, vehicles were nerfed, costumes are now more expensive (and as a result stipends were nerfed)... It concerns me that we're not getting a lot of new and shiny to compensate. Haven't gotten a new mission or event in quite a while.

    I can certainly see how this would be off-putting to some people.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,066 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The issue has nothing to do with whether or not lifers are freeloaders. The issue is that game development is driven by potential future revenues, not past revenues, and thus a lifer only drives game development if he spends more than his stipend.
  • trailturtletrailturtle Administrator Posts: 5,496 Perfect World Employee
    edited March 2015
    Quickly addressing questions of moderation: I edited a paragraph because I will not countenance comparisons between a price change and an abusive relationship. I removed carbonifer's post because, while I could see that he probably meant it differently than I interpreted it, it could be read as piggy-backing on that theme.

    I'm not going to be heavy on the moderation, especially on a charged topic like this; if you aren't making comparisons like the above, don't worry, you'll be fine.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    There is a difference between complaining about the quality of a set and complaining over $10. I have over 260 costume slots between all of my characters. $5 to be able to use a set on every single one of those toons is laughably low. I've probably rolled up 100 characters by now and even $10 for fluff is cheap. A few minor costume errors doesn't mean sets are trash tier, horrible, or that $10 is somehow gouging players. A broken color channel and weird rubber banding on a jacket are minor errors.

    If you think a costume set has crap quality, don't buy it. I see people complaining about how terrible a set is and then go ahead and buy the damn thing anyway. At some point, personal responsibility needs to kick in instead of blaming Cryptic for everything. The Scientist and Anime sets are disappointing as far as I'm concerned. Guess what I'm not going to do. Buy them. But I'm not going to sit here and ream Cryptic for charging more for a bunch of fluff. Especially when that price is still cheap.

    No one is obligated to pay anything for this game. It's a business, not a charity. If you aren't having fun in the game, don't spend money on it. If you're disappointed in the lack of content, don't spend money on the game. If there is nothing you want to buy, don't buy anything. But it's not fair to Cryptic if they aren't allowed to charge reasonable prices for products so they can afford to support and expand the game.

    And $10 is nothing. Even for costume sets that aren't perfect.
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    2: 600z tier is a jerk move. A stipend is 500z, are you *seriously* going to make the average level costume take more than a month of stipend to buy? Jerk move, guys. A lot of people subscribe under the idea that you get a stipend that at least lets you buy a costume set every month. Making the average costume out of reach of that?


    I agree that making the "average" tier higher than a month's stipend is really lousy. I get the idea--try to get subscribers and lifers to pay a little more month to month. Likely result for me is to buy less costumes.

    sterga wrote: »
    If you think a costume set has crap quality, don't buy it. I see people complaining about how terrible a set is and then go ahead and buy the damn thing anyway. At some point, personal responsibility needs to kick in instead of blaming Cryptic for everything. The Scientist and Anime sets are disappointing as far as I'm concerned. Guess what I'm not going to do. Buy them.

    I didn't buy either set because I don't feel they are done very well. I really, really wanted the Scientist set initially, but the final version that went up for sale just wasn't that good.
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  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It concerns me that we're not getting a lot of new and shiny to compensate. Haven't gotten a new mission or event in quite a while.

    I can certainly see how this would be off-putting to some people.

    I've been staying out of this for the most part, other than to make a ha-ha-only-serious joke about putting on a pot of coffee and getting to work. But I'll repeat here what I said in an off-hand tweet the day this was announced:

    This is the worst time of the year to make this price adjustment.

    Development on this game comes in cycles that rise and fall like a sine wave. The peaks of the wave come in late summer, when events like Fatal Err0r and Steel Crusade are introduced. The troughs come in February and March, when we might get a QoL fix and a costume set or two, but bugger all for mission content. Considering the hissy fits WoW players are throwing over the QoL-over-quests focus of one single patch, delayed gratification is a hard sell even for the 800 lb. Gorilla of MMOs.

    Meaningful digression time...

    The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission has nudged up tolls every year for a while now, but they've also been rebuilding the entire main line, from Ohio to New Jersey. They got sick and tired of patching potholes every year, and traveled to Germany to ask their civil engineers why the Autobahn doesn't fall apart under similar climate and load conditions.

    "On average, ze road bed of ze Autobahn is 27 inches thick," the Germans said. "Vhat about ze Turnpike?"

    "Around Carlisle, the oldest section... um, about four inches," the PTC replied.

    "Vell zere's your problem!"

    So the PTC is digging the road bed deep enough to withstand consecutive hard winters without requiring off-road vehicles, as well as widening the whole length from four lanes to six. Drivers complain about the construction instead of the tolls, and they sure do love that new six-lane bridge over the Allegheny River.

    Personally, I think an immediate bug/QoL pass on costumes and the tailor would go a long way toward patching up relations here. A quick reinvestment in the items we're now paying more for would be a show of good faith and a better incentive to pay that premium than waiting and seeing what comes of it in August.
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  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Trailturtle, I need you to read this and take it to heart. Mind you, this is not me pulling a punch.

    For the last few months, years in some cases- there have been some bugs that just persist. They are not being fixed. They have not even been addressed in some cases.

    You and Radio weren't 'wrong' for finding disparity in the costume sets. But like it was said before, if you logged on and THAT was the problem that stuck out at you after playing around in the tailor? I can't think you're paying attention to this game, the community, or the forums. If pricing was the major concern you have, then you're really misplacing your care for this game.

    First thing is first, and I don't think it's asking too much- but how about we compile a list of CONFIRMED costume bugs for you. When the devs can acknowledge those bug and give us an idea on their plan to fix that, THEN you'll be within your rights to start discussing price changes.

    PROVE that you're listening to us. We'll do the research FOR YOU. Give us a deadline, we'll compile it, and have one of your forum-jockeys copy/paste that into the first post.


    Oh, and don't think it doesn't seem a bit suspicious that you're doing this price raise after you've released some baller costumes in lockboxes and seen how much we're willing to pay for a good set by gambling.
  • speanozspeanoz Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So, TT, despite massive out-lash on this thread and in-game, they're still going forward with the price hike?
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    And let's be fair- Wanna know how this sounds?

    "We made some real dumpster fires and piss-poor costumes, guys. We still went ahead and sold them to you and ignored a lot of your suggestions. Because of this, we feel like the ones that weren't garbage are worth twice as much! We're not improving things, we're just lowering the standard for quality."
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