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Van Helsing Act/Rights of undead and extraplanars
cybersoldier1981
Posts: 2,501 Arc User
I have heard people speak on a 'Van Helsing Act' that protects the rights of the Undead and Extraplanar beings (demons, angels, etc).
Now, I have heard someone on these very forums that knows the lore quite well say that they've never heard anything.
Now, that being said- what are the rights of these beings?
Now, I have heard someone on these very forums that knows the lore quite well say that they've never heard anything.
Now, that being said- what are the rights of these beings?
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That's from Thundrax's CO Lore Primer, actual quote from Champions Universe is in yellow.
I also can't find Van Helsing Act in 6ed CU. Maybe I'm not good enough at searching, but I'm almost sure it is not there.
Based on Thundrax's interpretation of the 14th Amendment in the Champions universe, however, an extradimensional human, within standard genetic variation to still be considered as "human", should have the same rights as any other human(ish) native to the Champs dimension.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Most Roleplayers I know play it off as "After the supernatural nastiness going on in Vibora Bay, it was repealed".
I can't at this moment speak definitively about all previous incarnations of the CU for earlier editions of Champions, but as far as I can recall I've never encountered a "Van Helsing Act" mentioned in connection with the PnP game. Nor have I yet found it in lore sources for Champions Online. Only place I've seen it discussed is on CO fan forums. If someone could point us toward an official source for it, I for one would be grateful.
EDIT: Is it possible that this convention could have appeared in another game, and someone just assumed it applied here? Say, from White Wolf's "World of Darkness" line?
White Wolf's WoD doesn't feature this, anywhere. Supernatural beings of any sort are regarded as they are in real life- a fable, a scary story. It's written so if you 'see' one, your mind can't process it properly and you write it off as something else. The NSA is vaguely aware of Vampires in 3rd Edition, but not as 'vampires'- just 'some anomaly in certain persons we have discovered' that they are (or were) actively looking into. However, I'm not sure what changed in the latter editions and from what I understand, being a Vampire is even more restrictive.
As a matter of fact, let me say one thing:
WoD is cool, IMHO. But it's so absurdly incompatable with CO (or any superhero setting), attempting to do so is like dropping the cast of Game of Thrones into Warhammer. It belongs on its own and it doesn't play nice. Baring fangs or turning into a 9-foot-tall were-creature isn't impressive to people who've watched human beings throw dump trucks and melt steel with a dirty look. I never understood why people somehow thinks it gets a pass, because the very core elements of the WoD lore are tossed out the window repeatedly by many of the players. All it seems they are doing is borrowing some history and elements of said lore- but if you do that with Marvel, DC, Game of Thrones, or anything else- it's treated as you 'hijacking' copyrighted material. WoD should get the same treatment.
The second and more important issue is the rights of so-called "non-humans": alien and extra-dimensional life-forms; artificially intelligent computers, androids, and robots; human mutants; the undead; clones and genetic constructs; and so forth. The Supreme Court dealt with this question in 1978 in six consolidated cases: One Unname-able Alien Life-Form From Tau Ceti 11 v. United States (alien being), Mechanoid-5 v. New York (artificially intelligent android), Ohio v. Julesz the Kind (vampire), Gordon "Powermonger" Lowder v. California (mutants), Phillip "Infrared" Cowling v. United States (mutates), United States v. The Lizard-Thing (extradimensional beings), and Number 32 v. Central Intelligence Agency (human clone with genetic enhancements), 428 U.S. 1471 (1976) (collectively, Tau Ceti 11). The Court stated:
The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees of due process and equal protection extend to all persons within the United States or its territories. But... the term "persons" means humans. Neither alien and extra-dimensional life forms, nor artificial intelligences, nor the undead are "persons," and hence they have no rights under the Fourteenth Amendment.
Mutants, mutates, clones, and genetic constructs from human stock are a different matter. Essentially, they are "subspecies" of humanity. In many cases, even the most thorough examination of them cannot differentiate them from humans. The are so close to being human that there is no legal justification for considering them not to be human. We hold that free-willed mutants, mutates, clones, and genetic constructs, from human stock, are 'persons" under the Fourteenth Amendment and are possessed of all rights thereunder.
Id. at 1480-1483 (citations omitted).
In response, Congress passed the Android, Artificial Intelligence, and Alien Life-Form Rights Act of 1979 (usually known as the "Triple-A Act"). The Triple-A Act grants civil rights to most "sentient" beings who can prove that they are independent and free-willed. The law defines "sentience" in various ways, usually relating to the capacity for creative and philosophical thought, not just problem-solving capability. Most states have also enacted laws or passed their own constitutional amendments granting "alternate sentiences" various civil rights. However, this law and all related laws, state and federal, make one exception: the undead do not have civil rights. The legal ramifications of that, particularly the question of who owns the formerly deceased's property, combined with the typically evil or destructive nature of such beings, has kept them outside the ambit of the laws.
From the above, I would conclude that a being from an alternate Earth who is genetically human would have full rights under the Fourteenth Amendment. I would question an assumption that just because undead are not guaranteed due process of law and equal protection of the law under the Fourteenth Amendment, they can be destroyed with impunity and without legal consequences. I also want to bring up the case of Dr. Silverback, the gorilla super-scientist hero mutated by the infamous Dr. Phillippe Moreau, who lived in the United Kingdom before relocating to Millennium City. "Eventually Silverback applied to the British government for official citizenship. With the assistance of the famous lawyer St. John Simons and the support of Morrison, Cambridge Biochem, and the New Knights, Silverback won a landmark case establishing himself as legally equal to a human being and a naturalized citizen of the British Empire. This precedent has become a landmark in superhuman law, cited over and over again in cases involving the legal status of robots, aliens, and the undead." (Champions Universe 6E pp. 178-79) From the dates given in Dr. Silverback's back story, this ruling was made between 1985 and 1994. It would probably have some bearing on individual cases involving people who aren't "persons" under the law, even in the United States.
I had heard about this Van Helsing Act from other players, obviously in Club Caprice, where vampires are like the indigenous ethnic group. I can totally see this Act came about as a game of telephone/Chinese Whispers from some other setting.
If pressed, my character would further lie that she was, in fact, a mutant. Much funnier IMHO.
That said, this discussion is very interesting! I finally got around to read the Fourteenth Ammendment, y'know? I really like the fact that Steven S. Long is a lawyer, this Stronghold book is like an episode of the West Wing. Good stuff!
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"The undead humans and, in some cases, animals or members of other races who return from the dead exist, and are almost uniformly evil. The earliest ones were created by sorcerers, adepts of the arcana of Necromancy, but many (such as vampires) possess limited procreation abilities. According to most scholars who have studied the matter, undead are created by fusing life-essence with evil arcane energies from the Netherworld (or sometimes even Qliphothic dimensions!). Thus, the undead are almost uniformly evil and destructive and powerful. However, other scholars have put forth other theories, or questioned aspects of the primary theory, so no one can say for certain exactly what the undead are."
The lore includes examples of vampires who are not malevolent or actively predatory, and even heroic. They're most emphatically in the minority, though. Offhand I can't think of any other benevolent undead.
EDIT: I did remember one. The Constable is a member of the Canadian superhero team StarForce. He's a revenant, a spirit made flesh to right an injustice from his past.
Now you can cite Tau Ceti 11 and the Triple-A Act back at them, and watch their heads spin. :biggrin:
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So, aliens, AIs and synthetics are covered by the same category. Seems logical solution, since none of them is unnatural creation breaking any laws of physics or biology. They're merely non-human.
How non-human extraplanars are considered uder the law? As aliens?
The latter also brings another question - spirits and demons also are extraplanar.
Would be hilarious if creatures like demons had better legal standing than undead.
But the existence of demons brings up the question of whether courts have jurisdiction over divine beings, or those claiming divinity (including infernal "deities" such as Satan), who do from time to time show up on Champions Earth. Stronghold touches on this, on p. 30. In brief, courts usually reject most legal claims against beings who can prove divine status to the satisfaction of at least some people, on various grounds. However, they accept jurisdiction over any being which commits a crime in the United States, regardless of any assertion of divinity.
Well, in general and using dry logic, existence of divine creatures and how they are working in CU would be very convenient for anyone trying to prove atheist point of view in CU...
If said person were also able to point that it is all imaginary creation and that's why they do exist. :biggrin:
As for the gods themselves, few of them are willing to support the validity of this theory. They remember their own pasts as the most popular stories about them tell it. Some of them even remember creating the world and the human race.
Note that occultists who are also believers in a particular faith treat the godheads in the Imaginal Realms as the equivalent of masks which the true deities wear to present themselves to simple folk who can't comprehend what they really are. (See The Mystic World p. 33.)
That'd make for a fun campaign setup: A team of superhumans is hired by a well preserved, formerly wealthy-businessman-in-life zombie/undead, who wants their help: in getting back what is his/hers/its, and in exchange the zombie will support them with tools, gadgets, contacts, for the rest of their careers.
This could play out in two ways:
a combat heavy "heist" method, where the superhumans do robberies on the heir's operations to get what's their undead benefactor's.
a more cerebral method, through which the supers establish a rival operation to the zombie's living heirs and try to beat them in that way.
I do love fluff, it makes ideas sprout up like daisies.
I'm realising this is the issue of the Van Helsing Act, that a law exists for something that shouldn't.
I was thinking of Lord Liaden's question if this Van Helsing Act was introduced by World of Darkness players, as well as Cyber Soldier's point that, even if it was, don't be bringing other IPs into CO, especially when their tones don't match.
There is a greater Disconnect than even that, IMHO. Something fundamental for vampires.
A common theme with most vampire works is they mask themselves, hiding in plain sight. Whether as a Vibora Bay street gang, a sparkly high school student, etc. (just like the Devil, Keyser Soze, the Transformers)
It's so prevalent that the World of Darkness RPG is called Vampire: the Masquerade.
The Masquerade, for those unfamiliar with it, is the greatest trick the vampires ever played: to disguise the fact they even exist. This is their survival strategy, and a lot of that RPG is how they police themselves, cover their existence up.
To have a law that protects them is to reveal their existence...the ultimate irony.
INB4 "if vampires are protected by the law, they wouldn't need to hide". It's a good point, but laws change, governments change, beliefs change. They probably could never walk that back, so if anything, they would like to stop such a law.
Of course, the typical Caprice RP is for vampires flaunt their nature. So...I dunno, man. Thoughts?
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- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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In practical terms it isn't necessary for someone to buy into the premise of a MMO world to play it. They register (under whatever terms), create their character (logical background or no), and off they go. It sucks for everyone involved when they meet someone who wants to roleplay the setting faithfully, but what can you do?
So then we get into really strange areas like has the soul ever been confirmed to exist in the Champions universe. In CO it seems to be the case as there are powers that eat life force meaning the idea of souls may be confirmed in the game. But that's how I treat it thy are protected if they are sentient to a degree if they are just animalistic flesh eaters they are treated as things to hunt.
As for why play a vampire or a smart zombie? Well to be fair there aint many games that let you be anything but Human so its nice to try other ideas out But imo its fine as long as you operate within certain laws. If you act like a monster they will hunt you down and kill you like one as they would a crazy super. If you act normal or none threatening you will mostly be left alone.
Anyways that's my thoughts on the subject and how i try and deal with it. I have herd of some source book that covered some rules on it though but apparently it seems no one here knows of it so I may have imagined it.
Your approach sounds very reasonable, and adequate to fitting into Champions Online without causing you much hassle.
As for a source book, AFAIK the ones mentioned and quoted from on this thread are the only official Champions publications dealing with the issues raised.
There's a common phenomenon among tabletop RPG groups, in which an original concept, custom rule variant, etc. suits the group's preferences, and over time becomes such an accepted part of their campaign that no-one remembers it wasn't originally part of the rules or setting. Perhaps something similar happened in this case.
Champions Online is a strange animal however, we don't know how much of the CU laws made it in. you get vampires and werewolves pretty much openly operating in Vib Bay and a lot of magic flying around another thing that CU I think had a thing to say that magic was not common at all. So yes I think there is a bit of adaptation going on.
I always imagine in such a thing though you would get a similar thing to a episode in star trek the next generation when they try to deconstruct data the android and Picard comes to his rescue. So a bit like some hero had a undead sidekick who gets arrested for being a monster and said hero knows a good charismatic lawyer who does the captain Picard style speech I think there would be a law change. Of course that's just a theory though there is nothing to really go on in that reguard so I fall back on the proof of sentience thing.
But the needs and style of a MMORPG differ from the ones for a tabletop RPG, and both necessarily differ from real life. At some point you just have to go with it. The lore is there for people who want it, but if you don't the continuity police won't show up at your door.
One of my toons is actually a demon who has turned away from hell. She figures if angels could fall, there must be a way for demons to rise.
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BUENOS AIRES, Argentina An orangutan that has lived 20 years at the Buenos Aires zoo is entitled to some legal rights enjoyed by humans, an Argentine court has ruled, a decision the ape's attorney called unprecedented and a ticket to greater freedom.
The ruling comes a month after a local animal rights group filed a habeas corpus writ in favour of Sandra, who was born in Germany but has lived in captivity in Buenos Aires most of her life.
"Following a dynamic ... judicial interpretation, it is necessary to recognize that the animal is subject to rights, and should be protected," said the Dec. 18 ruling, published Monday by the official judicial news agency.
Andres Gil Dominguez, who represented the orangutan, said the "unprecedented" ruling paves the way for the habeas corpus rights to be accepted by the courts and for Sandra to be released at a sanctuary.
"It sets a precedent that changes the paradigm of animal guardianship and will impact their rights. ... It will lead to a lot of discussions," Gil Dominguez told The Associated Press.
"From this ruling forward ... the discussion will be whether captivity in itself damages their rights."
© Provided by thecanadianpress.com
Earlier this month, a New York appeals court ruled that a chimpanzee is not entitled to the rights of a human and does not have to be freed by its owner. The three-judge Appellate Division panel was unanimous in denying "legal personhood" to Tommy, who lives alone in a cage in upstate Fulton County.
A trial-level court had previously denied the Nonhuman Rights Project's effort to have Tommy released. The group's lawyer, Steven Wise, told the appeals court in October that the chimp's living conditions are akin to a person in unlawful solitary confinement.
Wise argued that animals with human qualities, such as chimps, deserve basic rights, including freedom from imprisonment. He has also sought the release of three other chimps in New York and said he plans similar cases in other states. But the mid-level appeals court said there is neither precedent nor legal basis for treating animals as persons.
As to your two examples, Triple-A doesn't address them, and I myself am not enough of a lawyer or philosopher to provide anything like an informed opinion. Someone else may want to weigh in. But if you wanted to deal with the legal implications of their condition within a role playing situation, since it's such a grey area my only advice would be to go in whatever direction you would find the most interesting and fun.
EDIT: FWIW there's an official villain called Automaton who's like your second example, a former human being accidentally transformed into a disembodied intelligence which can "possess" and control electronic devices. The last machine he was known to inhabit was destroyed in a conflict with superheroes, and he hasn't been seen since; so his status was never put to a legal test.
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They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
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Block timing explained
It's best to establish the guilt of your target first, even among vampires.
I don't think many people would object to someone staking his dad, though.