Help requested about numbers for SS.

Comments

• kaiserin

  kaiserin#0958

  Posts: 3,089 Cryptic Developer

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  It depends what you want to do.
  
  Want to be more geared towards damage? Primary dex with no dex investment in gear (at most a vigilante critical belt secondary gear). Get your int into in the mid/high 300 range and con in the mid 200. Gear mods/type should be offense, defense, and cooldown reduction. Try to get ahold of a Ameliorating secondary defense and a Hospitable secondary utility.
  
  Want more survivability but less damage? Str is a good option as it provides KB resistance and Juggernaut, you'd need around 200 to notice anything.
  
  If you don't care about KB resistance I'd opt for Ego due to your ranged nature. You need around 200ish Ego to get the full benefit out of the Follow Through spec. Con should be around 200 and the rest into int. Gear mods should be crit, defense, and cooldown reduction. Same secondaries.
  
  With a ranged character you want to pump as much into int as possible to boost your form, Quarry, and drop your cooldowns, while keeping con at a healthy level to fuel Ego Surge. Your third stat should meet whatever barebone requirements it needs to function.
  
  
  
  As a side note you don't need two active defenses or two heals. If you're sacrificing powers you want don't hesitate to drop Bountiful Chi Resurgence (its heal is low and lowers your damage) and/or one of the active defenses.

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• leandreav1 Posts: 9 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  How much would I lose from SS STR as a ranged DPS? I mean, something in the range of 50% less damage would be enough to make me swap to EGO, but something like 15% I'd be okay in exchange for being much more durable.
  
  What does EGO bring, by the way, for durability? The defense from the secondaries seems to be the only defensive specialization.
  
  As for the powers I'm fine as it is. I don't really see what else I'd want. Two attack clickies and three attacks seem plenty and since I seem to be constantly drawing agro the two defense clickies are usually in use at some point. BCR's -10% damage hurts though, I could look for another quick heal I can click and forget. Maybe even the drones (they would go well with the Green Lantern rif-off theme, though I find I need to summon them after each fight since at least one died from the AoEs.

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• acrosscat Posts: 0 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  kaizerin wrote: »

  As a side note you don't need two active defenses or two heals. If you're sacrificing powers you want don't hesitate to drop Bountiful Chi Resurgence (its heal is low and lowers your damage) and/or one of the active defenses.

  
  I suppose it's more to feed MSA, given that it's based on the Atomic Angel build.
  
  But yes, Bountiful Chi Resurgence could be replaced. Since you're taking after Munitions powers, perhaps Holdout Shot is right up your alley. single-target disengage, with a healing-over-time ability with advantage.

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• leandreav1 Posts: 9 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  So, 200ish STR, 300+ INT, 200ish CON. No Critical Strike. CD reduction only?

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  leandreav1 wrote: »

  How much would I lose from SS STR as a ranged DPS? I mean, something in the range of 50% less damage would be enough to make me swap to EGO, but something like 15% I'd be okay in exchange for being much more durable.

  Ur losing mostly on 10% -resist from Expose Weakness and a decent amount of general crit% (in the realm of 7-9%) when going from Dex PSS to Str PSS w/o Dex SS as a Ranged toon (ie. no Overpower for melee crit%).
  
  Ya can get higher Offense from Str PSS depending on the other specs (The Best Defense + Aggressive Stance), but the amount isn't as significant since Offense rating is on a heavy DR and is not fully multiplicative (generally find that the diff in offense between Juggernaut + TBD/AS and just TBD/AS is about 3.0-4.5%). Most targets have some innate resist (only henchman ranks have very little to none) so Expose Weakness can be very nice. Taking Dex Mastery also means ya can forgo gearing for severity and slot for bonus heal w/o much of a drawback (stronger self-heals), to counteract Dex PSS's weak survivability increases- higher general crit also means crit-able heals kick in more.
  
  So yes, the dps diff would be in the realm of 15% vs. most targets, I'd wager. If that's a fine enough gap for you to value the knock resist and higher health/defense, then so be it.
  

  What does EGO bring, by the way, for durability? The defense from the secondaries seems to be the only defensive specialization.

  Force of Will is like a mini-Juggernaut- not as good, but still pretty nice when combo'd w/ TBD/AS. Ego PSS also has more energy efficiency for ranged builds, and dps that's between Str PSS and Dex PSS in scale (though after crit rating got nerfed on the high-end, its moved a bit closer to Dex PSS on the scale). It can get very high crit, ala Dex PSS, and unlike Str PSS's Overpower this is generalized crit.
  
  Selphea's SS comparison spreadsheet (gleaned from Sniper Rifle testing w/ 3 diff passives) may be of interest to you. Its all pre-built and may not exactly reflect ur gearing or build, but it can offer some more detailed insights:
  
  http://worldsojourner.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/champions-online-ten-things-i-learned-from-spamming-sniper-rifle/

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
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• monsterdaddy Posts: 774 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  Per flowcyto, I find going DEX PSS only gives about a 10% increase in DPS in Dummy Testing. In actual battle, it's less vs. knock opponents because your DPS suffers getting knocked around plus you need to heal yourself more.
  
  Nuclear Winter (STR PSS, Rimefire/Ice Blast tank) once hit 4.3K DPS vs. Gravitar and that was the same DPS when I tested with DEX on Dummies. Plus I saved a power by not having to use CoPD.
  
  DEX PSS should enable a Healing Glove as Primary Offense which can help a bit. But I find STR PSS for ranged tanks to be real useful. I would use EGO PSS if you have severe power cost issues like a Force Cascade build.

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• leandreav1 Posts: 9 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  In theory I am a DPS which means if there is a tank in the team I do not have the agro. In practice I find myself constantly under siege, sometimes even with tanks in the team (but I speak of random alerts, which means random tank players who may still be leveling without spec or gear to keep up).
  
  I am not looking for a traditional tank role (getting agro and keeping it) but since I tend to jump into things, pop a defensive clickie and then start AoEing that's what tends to happen anyway.
  
  But this thread enlightened me, and I can see that once I get more experience under my belt then switching to Ego can be a thing, especially since gear (apparently) is quick to get (around a week, was it?) and a SS/specialization respec is only 50g.
  
  
  So, according to Kaizerin:
  

  kaizerin wrote: »

  (...)
  
  Want to be more geared towards damage? Primary dex with no dex investment in gear (at most a vigilante critical belt secondary gear). Get your int into in the mid/high 300 range and con in the mid 200. Gear mods/type should be offense, defense, and cooldown reduction. Try to get ahold of a Ameliorating secondary defense and a Hospitable secondary utility.
  
  (...) Gear mods should be crit, defense, and cooldown reduction. Same secondaries.
  
  With a ranged character you want to pump as much into int as possible to boost your form, Quarry, and drop your cooldowns, while keeping con at a healthy level to fuel Ego Surge. Your third stat should meet whatever barebone requirements it needs to function.
  
  (...)

  
  Ameliorating secondary defense, Hospitable secondary utility, barebones STR (200ish), barebones CON (200ish), then as much INT as I can. Gear mods aimed at crit, defense, CD reduction.
  
  Is this correct? I've done my missions and got enough tokens for my first bit of gear but didn't buy anything until I get a better grasp of what type of it I should get.

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  monsterdaddy wrote: »

  Per flowcyto, I find going DEX PSS only gives about a 10% increase in DPS in Dummy Testing. In actual battle, it's less vs. knock opponents because your DPS suffers getting knocked around plus you need to heal yourself more.

  Well, it should prob be more than 10% if Expose Weakness is being fully factored in. Selphea's sheet actually confirms the dps diff between Str/Con/Int and Dex/Con/Int setups w/ Quarry to be about a 14-15% diff (10600 vs 12100 using the default settings; get a similar gap w/ the KM and AoPM numbers). But ofc, that's just w/ one ability use (for good reason in those tests) and w/ specific setups that aren't going to fully represent everything- esp not all full builds.
  
  But yea, if ur going against Gravi, Str PSS prob would be equivalent or better just cause that fight emphasizes knock resist much moreso than normal. Knock resist in general can lead to higher dps uptime, but not consistently nor everywhere, and that generally applies more to melee than ranged.
  
  Its kinda similar lesson to how Int PSS is usually a no-go w/ a DUC, but if ur building specifically for F&I (for ex) it can be a good thing to have high -resist. In the end, much of the stat weight can depend what content ur doing or deem most significant for the build.
  

  leandreav1 wrote:

  Ameliorating secondary defense, Hospitable secondary utility, barebones STR (200ish), barebones CON (200ish), then as much INT as I can. Gear mods aimed at crit, defense, CD reduction.
  
  Is this correct? I've done my missions and got enough tokens for my first bit of gear but didn't buy anything until I get a better grasp of what type of it I should get.

  Ya dun necc need Str to 200+ unless ur valuing knock resist highly (ala vs Gravi, or soloing certain liars)- Kaiz I believe was referencing the knock resistance when he talked about having Str at 200. Its not an incorrect premise or anything (KB resistance is chance-based and small amounts aren't always that helpful), but its up to you how much a priority KB resist is in particular.
  
  More CON not only gives you more health (which is good if survival is a concern) but also more dps via Ego Surge's Nimble Mind (when its up). Ofc, gearing Int should be ur focus for dps, energy return, and cd reduction, but get as much Con as you feel gives ya a healthy HP buffer to use (imo). I'd prob aim for a particular max HP range you'd like to have by lvl 40 (7k? 10k? 12k?) and gear Con and growth mods (+maxHP) accordingly.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
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• wingedkagouti Posts: 565 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  flowcyto wrote: »

  Ya dun necc need Str to 200+ unless ur valuing knock resist highly (ala vs Gravi, or soloing certain liars)- Kaiz I believe was referencing the knock resistance when he talked about having Str at 200. Its not an incorrect premise or anything (KB resistance is chance-based and small amounts aren't always that helpful), but its up to you how much a priority KB resist is in particular.

  Also, the way Knockback and Knockback Resistance works in this game means that you'll get knocked fairly freqeuently even with 300+ STR if you don't block in time. I would generally not pick Strength as a PSS or SSS for a ranged dps character, Dex, Int and Ego all provide more overall benefit to such a character in my experience (and Con is always a useful pick).

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• monsterdaddy Posts: 774 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  flowcyto wrote: »

  Well, it should prob be more than 10% if Expose Weakness is being fully factored in. Selphea's sheet actually confirms the dps diff between Str/Con/Int and Dex/Con/Int setups w/ Quarry to be about a 14-15% diff (10600 vs 12100 using the default settings; get a similar gap w/ the KM and AoPM numbers). But ofc, that's just w/ one ability use (for good reason in those tests) and w/ specific setups that aren't going to fully represent everything- esp not all full builds.

  it might have something to do with modding all CON and using Nimble Mind and fast cooldowns. That makes the gap between STR and DEX PSS smaller. Plus, having more defense resist debuffage makes Expose Weakness have more DR, in this case I got DUC and Firesnake Rank 3 which often hits 10 stacks due to Nanobot Swarm.
  
  Glad you pointed this out because I never fully thought out why DEX wasn't giving as much DPS as I expected.

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  monsterdaddy wrote: »

  it might have something to do with modding all CON and using Nimble Mind and fast cooldowns. That makes the gap between STR and DEX PSS smaller. Plus, having more defense resist debuffage makes Expose Weakness have more DR, in this case I got DUC and Firesnake Rank 3 which often hits 10 stacks due to Nanobot Swarm.
  
  Glad you pointed this out because I never fully thought out why DEX wasn't giving as much DPS as I expected.

  That makes sense then w/ the smaller gap in the result you got- w/ the resist DR and higher ES/NM burst. I guess one could say the potential dps contribution of CDR and ES/NM is a bit underplayed at times, but unfortunately is one of those things that can't really be nailed down that well by its own nature- its importance can vary quite widely w/ each build and gearing setup. Just as targets themselves can have quite varying resist values depending on what ya normally run.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
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• jimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  flowcyto wrote: »

  That makes sense then w/ the smaller gap in the result you got- w/ the resist DR and higher ES/NM burst. I guess one could say the potential dps contribution of CDR and ES/NM is a bit underplayed at times, but unfortunately is one of those things that can't really be nailed down that well by its own nature- its importance can vary quite widely w/ each build and gearing setup. Just as targets themselves can have quite varying resist values depending on what ya normally run.

  
  Selphea's damage calculator (which is linked not as often as I expect) takes parameters like these into account. Any other parameters can be derived in game and/or with the Character Sheet in my sig ... since I haven't received any complaints, I assume it's reasonably accurate at this point.

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• monsterdaddy Posts: 774 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  jimhsua wrote: »

  Selphea's damage calculator (which is linked not as often as I expect) takes parameters like these into account. Any other parameters can be derived in game and/or with the Character Sheet in my sig ... since I haven't received any complaints, I assume it's reasonably accurate at this point.

  
  I think the part of Exploit Opening is interesting. Jim, you would understand if I am calculating this right. The correct damage calculation for Exploit Opening would be best approximated by a binomial distribution analysis? (Forgive me if I get the terms wrong.)
  
  Don't think Selphea's calculator can do that approximation.
  
  i.e. both crit, crit, crit, crit and normal, normal, normal, normal = no value from Exploit Opening
  
  This is one reason I basically just use AO Parser on full builds to determine efficacy. So many powers that look good on paper aren't so hot in PH. I've been disappointed with Bullet Beatdown, Haymaker, One Hundred Hands, Force Cascade, and even Laser Sword.

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  jimhsua wrote: »

  Selphea's damage calculator (which is linked not as often as I expect) takes parameters like these into account. Any other parameters can be derived in game and/or with the Character Sheet in my sig ... since I haven't received any complaints, I assume it's reasonably accurate at this point.

  well, I think now that parsing has become more widespread, people may rather test things out in the PH to get a 'feel', rather than fiddle w/ excel sheets. Not that I'm saying the latter isn't of use, but it takes a certain kind of player to want to do that extensively, and from my experience its not many of them
  
  Since Selphea isn't around here as much lately, though, ya could always sig that link if you want it to be spread more.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

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• jimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  Regarding Exploit Opening (EO):
  
  I thought of an interesting discussion involving Bernoulli trials, infinite series, markov chains, etc, but really it's not relevant, and the math part of my brain isn't working right now.
  
  Still, in summary:
  

  1. The formula on selphea's calculator page is correct.
  2. EO can be an option instead of SS, depending on your secondary superstats and crit chance.

  
  See this (implicit) graph:
  
  
  
  Red line: EO 2/2 vs Sixth sense 2/3
  
  Blue line: EO 2/2 vs Sixth sense 3/3
  
  Should you take EO or Sixth sense?
  Find your crit chance (x-axis) and total secondary superstats (y-axis), and plot a point.
  If that point is below the line, EO does more damage.
  If that point is above the line, sixth sense does more damage.
  
  Caveats:

  • AO uptimes change crit chance, and so affect this calculation in unpredictable ways. (You can estimate a crit% by adding the difference in crit%, multiplied by the ratio of the AO uptime to the AO CD, if you would like).
  • Some powers/spec trees depend on actual crits. EO "crits" are not crits.
  • EO can proc on things that shouldn't crit, like Mental Storm. This part of the problem has not been thoroughly tested.

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• flowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User

  December 2014 edited December 2014

  That's a nice analysis!
  
  Not really knowing the math behind it too well, the only other thing I could add to EO is that it's a short duration buff (5 sec), so its kinda a 'use it or lose it' thing. On paper, that prob isn't a factor, but it could be in practice sometimes.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

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