Is Congress of Selves still broken?

gradii · December 2014

Is Congress of Selves still broken? and if so what parts are broken again? what's the nature of the problem?

I have ideas for builds with that passive and need to know if its working.

riltmos · December 2014

I don't know if anything is broken or not since I didn't crunch any numbers, but I know from experience that it isn't the stealth part that is broken.

flowcyto · December 2014

I would comment, but I'm not sure what is broken.

(edit: I should take that back- I know of the dmg boost applying to all Ego dmg and not just Ego DoT dmg, but I'm not sure if that's a tooltip error or an oversight- regardless it helps, and not harms, the passive)

What concepts did you have that you were worried about using CoS with?

theravenforce · December 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

I would comment, but I'm not sure what is broken.

(edit: I should take that back- I know of the dmg boost applying to all Ego dmg and not just Ego DoT dmg, but I'm not sure if that's a tooltip error or an oversight- regardless it helps, and not harms, the passive)

What concepts did you have that you were worried about using CoS with?

Boost to all Ego Damage is a "fix" to the penetration part of CoS not working as intended. Most likely last minute since GMC was moved over. CoS basically is Ego Form with less resistance to all damage.*

Stealth part of CoS is not working properly in alerts (numbers are messed up and targets end up coming for you unless the tank can really do just that.)

Outside of alerts Congress of Selves stealth portion works fine.

I am of the opinion that the reduced threat is borked as well.

I'd recommend asking for an avid parser to run some tests, or something to that effect.

*This is just what I have observed when comparing DoT numbers on Regen Dummies using CoS and Ego Form without any other damage modifiers. However I could be wrong but I cannot see any difference between CoS and Ego Form's damage numbers on Regen dummies when it comes to the illusive 30% penetration DoTs are meant to have.

Unknown · December 2014

This content has been removed.

riltmos · December 2014

theravenforce wrote: »

Boost to all Ego Damage is a "fix" to the penetration part of CoS not working as intended. Most likely last minute since GMC was moved over. CoS basically is Ego Form with less resistance to all damage.*

Stealth part of CoS is not working properly in alerts (numbers are messed up and targets end up coming for you unless the tank can really do just that.)

Outside of alerts Congress of Selves stealth portion works fine.

I am of the opinion that the reduced threat is borked as well.

I'd recommend asking for an avid parser to run some tests, or something to that effect.

*This is just what I have observed when comparing DoT numbers on Regen Dummies using CoS and Ego Form without any other damage modifiers. However I could be wrong but I cannot see any difference between CoS and Ego Form's damage numbers on Regen dummies when it comes to the illusive 30% penetration DoTs are meant to have.

I think they made it so you cannot stealth from alert mobs, I've went in with a character built around a ton of stealth moves and they still see me.

flowcyto · December 2014

Well testing the DoT resistance certainly brings up Cryptic acting as it normally does w/ this stuff behind the scenes...

Using my tester toon, R3 Ego Form vs. R3 CoS. Using Int PSS and MSA, but no specs. CDR and Int gearing..

Using both Mental Leech and Shadow of Doubt. Excluding Mental Storm atm cause of its -resist debuff.

Test 1: R3 CoS on regen dummy (16-17% base resist)

TYPE             DAMAGE  BASEDAMAGE  ENCDPS  AVERAGE  MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS  AVGDELAY  RESIST%  
All              86,844  95,545      448.57  104.13   82      130     834   0.37      9%       
Shadow of Doubt  48,799  53,663      252.06  117.02   107     130     417   0.58      9%       
Mental Leech     38,045  41,882      196.51  91.24    82      100     417   0.58      9%

9% parsed resist

Test 2: w/ R3 Ego Form instead

TYPE             DAMAGE  BASEDAMAGE  ENCDPS  AVERAGE  MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS  AVGDELAY  RESIST%  
All              79,117  95,065      411.42  96.48    75      119     820   0.36      16%      
Shadow of Doubt  44,663  53,672      232.26  108.93   98      119     410   0.57      16%      
Mental Leech     34,454  41,393      179.17  84.03    75      91      410   0.57      16%

16% parsed resist.

So there does seem to be some -reisst added by CoS to the DoTs, but its def not the advertised 30% at R3.

to see if its rank-related..
Test 3: w/ R1 CoS

TYPE             DAMAGE  BASEDAMAGE  ENCDPS  AVERAGE  MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS  AVGDELAY  RESIST%  
All              80,396  88,508      413.56  96.40    76      121     834   0.38      9%       
Shadow of Doubt  45,506  50,072      234.08  109.13   99      121     417   0.61      9%       
Mental Leech     34,890  38,436      179.48  83.67    76      93      417   0.58      9%

9% parsed resist.

Doesn't seem like the rank matters for CoS's -resist.

Test 4: w/ R3 CoS + 3/3 Detect Vnln in Int PSS (-33%, which reduces dummy resist to 0%, and not past 0%)

TYPE             DAMAGE  BASEDAMAGE  ENCDPS  AVERAGE  MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS  AVGDELAY  RESIST%  
All              90,801  98,272      467.32  108.87   84      146     834   0.37      7%       
Shadow of Doubt  51,095  55,402      262.97  122.53   109     146     417   0.60      7%       
Mental Leech     39,706  42,870      204.35  95.22    84      112     417   0.59      7%

7% avg parsed resist.. a bit lower, but not by much.

Doesn't seem like the DoTs gain from -resist boosts properly as is.

Test 5: w/ R3 CoS + 3/3 Detect Vuln + Mental Storm w/ End Builder turned on (to stay in combat)

TYPE          DAMAGE   BASEDAMAGE  ENCDPS  AVERAGE  MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS  AVGDELAY  RESIST%  
All           142,254  125,975     710.56  182.14   83      273     781   0.33      -12%     
Mental Storm  101,588  91,785      507.43  222.29   180     273     457   0.56      -10%     
Psi Lash      40,666   34,190      203.13  125.51   83      248     324   0.60      -18%

-18% for the non-DoT end builder. -10% for the DoT (averaged).

Now if ya look at the individual spell breakdown, you'll see something interesting for the tests w/ general defense penetration from Detect Vuln:
(from Test 4)

TIME        ATTACKTYPE       DAMAGETYPE  DAMAGE  BASEDAMAGE  RESIST%  SOURCE   
22:14:10.4  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         116     127         8%       127.954  
22:14:10.1  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         130     143         9%       143.829  
22:14:09.6  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         116     127         8%       127.954  
22:14:09.5  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         130     143         9%       143.829  
22:14:09.5  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         116     127         8%       127.954  
22:14:08.1  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         130     143         9%       143.829  
[B]22:14:07.4  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         127     127         0%       127.954 [/B] 
22:14:07.1  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         130     143         9%       143.829  
22:14:06.9  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         117     129         9%       129.286  
22:14:06.3  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         130     143         9%       143.829  
22:14:06.2  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         117     129         9%       129.286  
22:14:06.2  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         130     143         9%       143.829  
22:14:05.0  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         117     129         9%       129.286  
[B]22:14:04.2  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         143     143         0%       143.829[/B]  
22:14:04.0  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         117     129         9%       129.286  
22:14:03.9  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         124     136         8%       136.642  
22:14:03.1  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         117     129         9%       129.286  
22:14:03.1  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         124     136         8%       136.642  
22:14:03.0  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         117     129         9%       129.286  
22:14:03.0  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         124     136         8%       136.642  
[B]22:14:01.0  Shadow of Doubt  Ego         129     129         0%       129.286 [/B]
...

Enboldened are instances where the DoT's do seem to be benefiting from -resist. As ya can see its a minority for the DoT ticks. (note: 7 dot ticks for SoD per cast, w/ one extra initial tick that's not advertised on the tooltip- similar to how maintains get an extra tick in the first 1-sec that's not advertised).

Another example, using Mental Storm (from test 5):

TIME        ATTACKTYPE    DAMAGETYPE  DAMAGE  BASEDAMAGE  RESIST%  SOURCE   
22:19:38.8  Mental Storm  Ego         211     190         -11%     190.978  
22:19:38.8  Mental Storm  Ego         231     209         -10%     209.327  
22:19:36.7  Mental Storm  Ego         211     190         -11%     190.978  
22:19:36.7  Mental Storm  Ego         231     209         -10%     209.327  
22:19:36.4  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
22:19:36.3  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
22:19:36.3  Mental Storm  Ego         211     190         -11%     190.978  
22:19:36.3  Mental Storm  Ego         231     209         -10%     209.327  
[B]22:19:34.8  Mental Storm  Ego         254     209         -21%     209.327  
22:19:34.7  Mental Storm  Ego         232     190         -22%     190.978 [/B] 
22:19:34.6  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
22:19:33.7  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
22:19:33.7  Mental Storm  Ego         211     190         -11%     190.978  
[B]22:19:32.7  Mental Storm  Ego         232     190         -22%     190.978 [/B] 
22:19:32.6  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
[B]22:19:31.7  Mental Storm  Ego         232     190         -22%     190.978[/B]  
22:19:31.6  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
[B]22:19:30.7  Mental Storm  Ego         232     190         -22%     190.978[/B]  
22:19:30.6  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
22:19:29.7  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
22:19:29.7  Mental Storm  Ego         211     190         -11%     190.978  
22:19:29.1  Mental Storm  Ego         212     192         -10%     192.573  
22:19:29.0  Mental Storm  Ego         218     197         -10%     197.406  
22:19:29.0  Mental Storm  Ego         211     190         -11%     190.978  
22:19:28.1  Mental Storm  Ego         212     192         -10%     192.573  
[B]22:19:27.7  Mental Storm  Ego         232     190         -22%     190.978  
22:19:27.4  Mental Storm  Ego         239     197         -21%     197.406 [/B] 
...

(note: MS lasts 16 sec, w/ 17 ticks total /cast; overlaps in ticks cause cd is at an irregular timer vs. the DoT duration)

Again, some ticks are getting the full -resist benefit from Detect Vuln; most aren't. I'd assume what's happening is that the initial ('extra') DoT tick gains the benefit, but further ones derived from the DoT debuffs themselves don't because they aren't being sourced to the player.. but instead acting like indep entities or pets.

In Short: Hurray for more bugs that make powers worse than they should be :x CoS's DoT -resist% has an effect, but def not as it should.

oddbirdy · December 2014

gradii wrote: »

Shame CoS is still broken, what do they have against poor PFF and CoS

Why, nothing! They're working just as hard on fixing CoS and PFF as they are the rest of the game! :biggrin:

theravenforce · December 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

Well testing the DoT resistance certainly brings up Cryptic acting as it normally does w/ this stuff behind the scenes...

*snip*

Again, some ticks are getting the full -resist benefit from Detect Vuln; most aren't. I'd assume what's happening is that the initial ('extra') DoT tick gains the benefit, but further ones derived from the DoT debuffs themselves don't because they aren't being sourced to the player.. but instead acting like indep entities or pets.

In Short: Hurray for more bugs that make powers worse than they should be :x CoS's DoT -resist% has an effect, but def not as it should.

Thank you very much for your testing, confirming that this passive is STILL broken.

I did have my suspicions when I was told that CoS was 'fixed'. Looks like the penetration is still broken after almost a year.

I did comment way back then and say that CoS's penetration should be applying to every tick of damage....but oh well.

It seems that better mileage would be seen taking Ego Form and running with INT PSS, funny how that was the original argument for keeping CoS in Hybrid/Support. LoL. -_-

theravenforce · December 2014

riltmos wrote: »

I think they made it so you cannot stealth from alert mobs, I've went in with a character built around a ton of stealth moves and they still see me.

Oh I know about that, but its the fact that everyone else in the alert can be attacking a target and they come for me lol. Maybe they just wanna kill me

jimhsua · December 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

Again, some ticks are getting the full -resist benefit from Detect Vuln; most aren't. I'd assume what's happening is that the initial ('extra') DoT tick gains the benefit, but further ones derived from the DoT debuffs themselves don't because they aren't being sourced to the player.. but instead acting like indep entities or pets.

In Short: Hurray for more bugs that make powers worse than they should be :x CoS's DoT -resist% has an effect, but def not as it should.

I observe basically the exact same thing with my Dex/DUC using characters with ego powers (that basically sums to ... Mental Storm with a side of Ego Sleep).

Oh, and sent you something on the PTS servers. Could be helpful.

flowcyto · December 2014

theravenforce wrote:

Thank you very much for your testing, confirming that this passive is STILL broken.

I did have my suspicions when I was told that CoS was 'fixed'. Looks like the penetration is still broken after almost a year.

I did comment way back then and say that CoS's penetration should be applying to every tick of damage....but oh well.

It seems that better mileage would be seen taking Ego Form and running with INT PSS, funny how that was the original argument for keeping CoS in Hybrid/Support. LoL. -_-

NP, and yeah it seems ur previous observations were on the mark 8)

To be fair, it does mean that CoS gives a bit more dps for pure DoT builds than Ego Form- but that's only going by pure dps and nothing else (personally, I like Ego Form's general +resist.. its like a mini Force of Will; the extra Physical dmg bonus can help w/ build diversity too).

jimhsua wrote: »

Oh, and sent you something on the PTS servers. Could be helpful.

Nice! Sent ya a reply in-game.

theravenforce · December 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

NP, and yeah it seems ur previous observations were on the mark 8)

To be fair, it does mean that CoS gives a bit more dps for pure DoT builds than Ego Form- but that's only going by pure dps and nothing else (personally, I like Ego Form's general +resist.. its like a mini Force of Will; the extra Physical dmg bonus can help w/ build diversity too).

Yeah, CoS gives slightly more DPS IF:

- You are using EGO DoT Powers. <-- A selection which is incredibly limited (which is a good thing, because it was originally intended to be a Support/Balanced Passive, not a free for all.).

I do wonder though...if like myself and a select others said back when it was being debated...if Ego Form plus INT PSS would be more reliable for DoT and general penetration purposes. (Main argument there was that Ego Form + INT PSS could be used for those who wanted it in a different role.)

Unknown · December 2014

This content has been removed.

flowcyto · December 2014

theravenforce wrote: »

I do wonder though...if like myself and a select others said back when it was being debated...if Ego Form plus INT PSS would be more reliable for DoT and general penetration purposes. (Main argument there was that Ego Form + INT PSS could be used for those who wanted it in a different role.)

Well, since it seems that most of the DoT ticks don't work w/ Detect Vuln, I wouldn't favor Int PSS in a DoT heavy build regardless. Unless ya mean in the case that Detect Vuln would work? If so, then yeah I'd take Ego Form's other benefits over CoS. I guess the question, then, would be if CoS's DoT -resist would be able to go past 0% resist, unlike Detect Vuln's defense penetration (ofc broken passive means I dunno either way regardless).

Is Congress of Selves still broken?

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