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Rampage data dump - Fire & Ice

jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
edited December 2014 in Missions and Content
Hi, you guys probably know me from my previous data exploits. To avoid cluttering up other people's threads, I decided to make a new thread for this stuff.

The below analysis was based on combatlog parses of all F&I instances that I participated in, since 7/28/2014. Some quick stats:

128 instances
389 unique characters
9679 frozen daggers
1291756 individual actions

A sneak peek:

IcBZs7E.png

All the data has been moved to a local SQL server and is out of ACT. Let me know if you have some interesting queries in mind. Enjoy!
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Looks like fun. I just started populating my Rampage data warehouse again in the last couple of days too. I have some fun ideas for shareable reports, but probably won't have time to play around with it much for a couple of months. :frown:

    lUss8uX.png
    LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.

    "Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Since this question came up during an F&I PUG:

    1st graph: PCT of DPS, after resistances (EncDPS), taken by each player from Frozen Daggers, ordered by decreasing amounts of damage taken (blue/orange/gray/yellow/etc)

    2nd graph: Amount of DPS taken, as in 1.

    1l16Nkh.png

    Processing this data was ... complicated ... so there may be some weird outliers. I think they're caused by players DC/SNR-ing, but whatever.

    The first graph also looks like a piece of modern art. :smile:
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    So how is all this fun-with-graphs useful to me, the average CO-Mart consumer? u3u
    Squishy DPS builds that can solo QWZ w/videos.
    My super cool CC build and how to use it.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,142 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So how is all this fun-with-graphs useful to me, the average CO-Mart consumer? u3u

    I don't see graphs any more. I see "blonde", "brunette" ...:cool:
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So how is all this fun-with-graphs useful to me, the average CO-Mart consumer? u3u

    To ELI5:

    1. Lots of blue - your tank done good. Lots of colors - your tank sucks.
    2. If your tank takes less than 864 DPS, you're "better than average". Hooray.

    How good of a tank are you depends on how much threat you generate (graph 1) as well as how much damage you soak (graph 2). Not either, both.
  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Same data, but sorted by graph 1.

    The trend should be obvious.

    FE421ij.png
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jimhsua wrote: »
    Same data, but sorted by graph 1.

    The trend should be obvious.

    FE421ij.png

    So is this telling me "better tanks hold threat and don't take a lot of damage"? u3u
    Squishy DPS builds that can solo QWZ w/videos.
    My super cool CC build and how to use it.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jimhsua wrote: »
    How good of a tank are you depends on how much threat you generate (graph 1) as well as how much damage you soak (graph 2). Not either, both.
    Actually, how good of a tank you are depends on how much damage people other than you take, how much they can do without getting aggro, and how much external support you need. Someone sniper rifle tanking, for example, takes no damage at all and still does a pretty good job on a team with otherwise marginal dps (it doesn't have that great threat generation).
    My guide to Teleios Ascendant
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,858 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So is this telling me "better tanks hold threat and don't take a lot of damage"? u3u

    Pretty much.. although in CO threat scaling is broken, so judging someone by aggro management is a bit disingenuous, and Frosty funnels building enough that w/o heavy support or very gimmicky builds one does have to cut their dps/threat gen a good bit in order to live. If a min-maxed dps'er can't keep it in their pants, or get an aggro wipe, or just simply switch targets in this case, its not necc a case of 'bad tank' if they eat daggers for being overzealous.

    Also, groups have no role enforcement- ya may get teams w/ no viable tank or support at all, and then yeah its gonna be sloppy (or even impossible w/o a sniper). The inverse is also true- too many tanks trying to taunt Frosty means many stray daggers, and since that's even more random they are even less likely to be blocked or mitigated well. Not a problem w/ preformed teams typically, but I dun think this sampling is largely taken from pre-mades.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pantagruel01 wrote: »
    Actually, how good of a tank you are depends on how much damage people other than you take, how much they can do without getting aggro, and how much external support you need. Someone sniper rifle tanking, for example, takes no damage at all and still does a pretty good job on a team with otherwise marginal dps (it doesn't have that great threat generation).

    Yes, I did leave out the HPS component. Would make it too complicated. Also considering damage debuffing, etc.

    As far as mechanics such as sniper rifle or "stealth-tanks" ... I'd rather leave them out of the discussion for the moment.
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Also, groups have no role enforcement- ya may get teams w/ no viable tank or support at all, and then yeah its gonna be sloppy (or even impossible w/o a sniper). The inverse is also true- too many tanks trying to taunt Frosty means many stray daggers, and since that's even more random they are even less likely to be blocked or mitigated well. Not a problem w/ preformed teams typically, but I dun think this sampling is largely taken from pre-mades.

    As far as the sample composition: about 50/50 premades/pug. I've tended to do more PUGs in the later dates. Premades are also ... variable in quality.
  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Categorical stats:
    Top: Success/fails of F&I over time, with average success rate.
    Bottom: Average duration of an encounter.

    Dotted: 10-period SMA (simple moving average).

    DHDWPsF.png
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jimhsua wrote: »
    Yes, I did leave out the HPS component. Would make it too complicated. Also considering damage debuffing, etc.
    Just measure 'damage Frosty did to other people' and 'amount of remote healing received'. You might want to check for the tank having sentinel aura and if so count sentinel mastery as a self-heal.
    My guide to Teleios Ascendant
    Epic Stronghold
    Block timing explained
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited December 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pantagruel01 wrote: »
    Just measure 'damage Frosty did to other people' and 'amount of remote healing received'. You might want to check for the tank having sentinel aura and if so count sentinel mastery as a self-heal.

    To address this. The results were .. not what I expected.

    lMskMvy.png

    For the Y-axis, this number is Healing (Inc) from ACT, divided by duration. I excluded sentinel mastery healing for all tanks. Having it in or not doesn't appear to make that much of a difference.

    Yeah, the variance is huge. But what this suggests to me is that tanks backed by better support (heals taken) greatly help the team take less damage. Thus here, the support more than anything a good tank makes. But note the Y-axis: tanks with a wide variety of healing requirements can all do fine.

    Anyways, will give this topic a rest now. Hope any of this is useful, now or in the future.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jimhsua wrote: »
    But what this suggests to me is that tanks backed by better support (heals taken) greatly help the team take less damage.
    The less the tank has to block, the more threat he can put out, so this is somewhat plausible. From the perspective of a healer, my main measures are "does the tank hold threat", "does the tank mitigate enough that I can keep up", and "how much room for error do I have".
    My guide to Teleios Ascendant
    Epic Stronghold
    Block timing explained
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,858 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Support w/ good-output heals is a huge help to any tank here, yea- so I guess this graph isn't all that surprising. I'd argue a strong Support can swing the fight's favors more than a strong tank can for F&I. A strong tank has to be quite decked out and optimized to carry w/o any (good) Support, whereas one strong healer enables even average PuG/5-man tanks or AT tanks to feasibly take on Frosty, when before they had little chance at all (plus there's resing, ofc).

    I guess when it comes down to it, anyone can block to sink Ice Dagger's idps a bunch, whereas not many can recover the dmg on a consistent basis.

    Its cool to have some data to support otherwise vague assertions, though, so nice work on this, Jim. Were you by chance running Support for most of these runs?
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Its cool to have some data to support otherwise vague assertions, though, so nice work on this, Jim. Were you by chance running Support for most of these runs?

    Actually, DPS (color me surprised).

    Tank: 37
    Support: 44
    DPS: 76

    One of the DPSes is somewhat support-y (SM), but still.
    flowcyto wrote: »
    I'd argue a strong Support can swing the fight's favors more than a strong tank can for F&I.

    That is my (somewhat counterintuitive) conclusion from a lot of this data analysis. Maybe I should run support more often ... :p

    I'm definitely able to keep up an AOPM tank (for instance) up without much fuss, as long as there isn't too much target switching. On the opposite end (tank with no support), yeah, that's a different story. The builds that can do that can be seen in the lower left corner of the plot. There aren't a lot :rolleyes:
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    I'd argue a strong Support can swing the fight's favors more than a strong tank can for F&I.
    It becomes rather tough to support a tank below a certain level of durability; ideally, I'd like to have a tank who can survive two ice daggers without blocking or an active defense, as that's about the worst case that's reasonably likely (ice hold while ADs on cooldown, healer a bit slow), and if a single unblocked dagger does more than around 75% it's rather impractical. I've tanked Frosty with invuln and 10k hp, and not SS:Con (unblocked dagger will do 7-8k) and succeeded through a lot of blocking and cycling two ADs, but it was kinda stressful for both me and the healer.

    AoRP is easily the best passive for these purposes; +90% damage resistance easily beats +1k hp from AoPM, and stuff that boosts healing isn't that relevant because healing rate doesn't tend to be the limiting factor.
    My guide to Teleios Ascendant
    Epic Stronghold
    Block timing explained
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,858 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pantagruel01 wrote: »
    It becomes rather tough to support a tank below a certain level of durability; ideally, I'd like to have a tank who can survive two ice daggers without blocking or an active defense, as that's about the worst case that's reasonably likely (ice hold while ADs on cooldown, healer a bit slow), and if a single unblocked dagger does more than around 75% it's rather impractical. I've tanked Frosty with invuln and 10k hp, and not SS:Con (unblocked dagger will do 7-8k) and succeeded through a lot of blocking and cycling two ADs, but it was kinda stressful for both me and the healer.
    I agree. Even if one may have a higher success rate than the other when performed competently, to an extent its splitting hairs. (most) Frosty tanks and their healer need to be on the ball and at least decently built regardless. Either role really clutches the encounter- all the other players have responsibilities, but its comparatively minute since they can be spread/diluted among all of them w/ broad or lax 'checks'.
    AoRP is easily the best passive for these purposes; +90% damage resistance easily beats +1k hp from AoPM, and stuff that boosts healing isn't that relevant because healing rate doesn't tend to be the limiting factor.
    AoRP is lovely, but its useless for that tank if they don't happen to be on ur UI when everyone loads in. That's partly why I dun field Support for groups much: in Rampages I found that it was a crap-shoot if any given player will actually be in my 'team' to actually get the auras or not. (and this is also partly why Sentinel Mastery and -dmg debuffs can be so nice- they circumvent UI and teaming issues)
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited December 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • bellerauxbelleraux Posts: 94 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    On Savior I've been able to pull pug groups back from near wipes with a quick team rezzing from redemption, and then pop ascension - instant full team health. then we go on to finish the rampage.

    Times like that make me feel darn good I invested all that time and effort in making her the best possible 100% team support character her concept can get her to be.

    That's the same strategy I do with Combat Medic.

    Hah, nice.
    Call Maverick if you need a DPS help, or Combat Medic if you need a healer.

    I am known for having extremely good or extremely bad luck with drops.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,858 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Yeah, Ascension is particularly strong as a group heal in Rampages- that is if well-timed. The ally heal portion of it is quite more potent than the self-heal (though Selfless Ally makes the self-heal better), and benefits much from all those bonus heal boosts. Unless I was using a techy theme that forbade it, I'd always try to include Ascension in my Support FF builds (along w/ a res, ofc).
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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