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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Rampage alerts are already the closest thing we have to raids. They're based around an especially tough foe that requires more than just one team / party to overcome. I'd call them "mini-raids" since only two full teams are required and they can be finished much quicker than perhaps a lot of other games' raid content.

    If rampages are this game's template for raid content, I'm fine with that, especially with seeing more of them. The rewards is just something that needs to be addressed.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Here's a question: Why should content only be relevant at certain levels?

    That's the problem with endgame content. It's only relevant at end game. That's the problem with all content that is a certain level. Frankly, I don't understand why MMOs are so on the rails with their content instead of having stuff that you can get lost in while still progressing your character and never feeling like there is a certain point to reach. I thought the point in having a persistent game world is that there shouldn't be an end to it.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    sterga wrote: »
    Here's a question: Why should content only be relevant at certain levels?

    That's the problem with endgame content. It's only relevant at end game. That's the problem with all content that is a certain level. Frankly, I don't understand why MMOs are so on the rails with their content instead of having stuff that you can get lost in while still progressing your character and never feeling like there is a certain point to reach. I thought the point in having a persistent game world is that there shouldn't be an end to it.

    Isn't adventuring the main point of a MMORPG, about exploring new areas and the kind of encounters, hostile or friendly, that the new areas would bring, and also about character progression? This is why content has always been level-tiered.

    If the game has a character-levelling system, then it can't be avoided. The content has to progressively scale with the levels. Even if the game allows players regardless of levels to explore wherever they want within the game from start to finish, the lower-levelled players are going to get wiped by content they're not qualified for level-wise anyway, unless a higher-levelled player carries them.
  • ravancheravanche Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I've mentioned this in other threads, but the desires of the "Hardcore" or "raider" culture have been falling steadily to the wayside. Blizzard themselves coined a term for it: the Locust Effect. The Locust Effect is spending 6-9 months of a development cycle creating new high-end content for the top 5-10% of their playerbase, then on release said content is consumed and finished within 2 weeks or less, at which point that 5-10% of the playerbase starts clamoring for new content. Meanwhile retention of the remaining 90-95% of the playebase flags because they are receiving little to no new content, content they go through much slower and more deliberately. Catering to the high-end raid culture is no longer a viable market strategy, especially considering the age of both the game and it's players.

    Thus MMOs have started aiming less at the Hardcore, and more at the player who comes home from work and logs in to play with their friends a few hours a night, maybe more on the weekends.

    As can be seen in other games that have been released, the Hardcore swarm to it, level to max level as fast as possible, consume all the existing top-tier content within the first weeks of release, then complain that there is no content. Then they move on to the next release, or return to a game that already has an established raid culture. Yet the game succeeds because the slower "casual" players are gradually working their way along with the full content of the game, rather than blasting past everything to the final 5% of the content.

    Retention also suffers if content is gated off behind raid constrictions. When some who took two years to get to max level finds that there is now whole hosts of high-end content they will never see, be it due to lack of time to play, lack of proper gearing, or lack of "hardcore" gameplay skill, they will be less inclined to stay with the game. Up to this point, their patience and persistance has let them see everything else the game has had to offer, but now, at the end, they are shut out of content designed exclusively for a small, elite portion of the playerbase.

    For a game such as CO the end game isn't raid content or similar hardcore trials. It's rerolling. Making a new character, trying a new power combination, new concept, new costuming options, and going through all the same content over again with friends doing the same. In a game such as STO, it's time gated achievements and gear through short events or resource grinding through existing content, as well as gaining of new ships/gear, all without raids.
    All these things require time and persistance. Retention, not raiding, is the end game for modern MMOs, and hardcore raiders are no longer the market.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    What's so great about "endgame"? Why would I want the game to end?

    Because endgame is forever. Leveling is the only thing that actually has a point of termination... so, oddly enough, if leveling is what you're all about, then for you the game does have an end, one you may in fact find yourself procrastinating on for years for fear of ending yourself. On the other hand, if you're all about endgame, then the game only ends when you decide not to play it anymore.


    It's all about how you view the light at the end of the tunnel. Either you stay in the darkness of the tunnel, forever glaring fearfully at the blinding light, the contents of which you cannot see... or you walk out the end of the tunnel and realize the light is comprised of an endless field full of joy and wonder.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    You obviously haven't been reading the thread if you think we want content for only the top few percent of the playerbase.

    Raids don't have to be like that if well designed.

    The endgame is NOT re rolling.

    Endgame should not be entirely raids either, but it's pure stupidity to call making new characters to re run the same content we've run a million times a real endgame.

    Some of us like our main characters and want more to do with them.

    ^ These are all statements that I agree with.
  • ravancheravanche Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    The endgame is NOT re rolling.

    Endgame should not be entirely raids either, but it's pure stupidity to call making new characters to re run the same content we've run a million times a real endgame..

    The reward you get for hitting 40? A new character slot. That means they want you to make new characters. What more indication do you need?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    ravanche wrote: »
    The reward you get for hitting 40? A new character slot. That means they want you to make new characters. What more indication do you need?

    They don't delete the character you just hit 40 with though. If they indeed intended me to no longer play that character, forcefully deleting it would be the indication I need. Otherwise they're sending mixed signals.


    I mean shoot, if I join a super group I get a new costume slot... are they telling me I need to change my costume?
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Single player games figured out how to make the game level with you 20+ years ago with games that you never had to beat and could go where you wanted whenever you wanted to.

    I'd prefer all of CO be more like Steel Crusade in that it can be done at any level. Even Serpents Lantern changes with groups and levels. It can be done at any level you want to do it at.

    Isn't it silly to be talking about "end game content" in a world that is supposed to be persistent and never have an end?
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It's all about how you view the light at the end of the tunnel. Either you stay in the darkness of the tunnel, forever glaring fearfully at the blinding light, the contents of which you cannot see... or you walk out the end of the tunnel and realize the light is comprised of an endless field full of joy and wonder.
    Or you come out of the tunnel, blink and look around hoping to see endless fields of joy and wonder, and realize you're looking at miles and miles of coal-yard, covered with railroad tracks that lead nowhere except back into themselves.

    I prefer it in the tunnel, thanks.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    Or you come out of the tunnel, blink and look around hoping to see endless fields of joy and wonder, and realize you're looking at miles and miles of coal-yard, covered with railroad tracks that lead nowhere except back into themselves.

    I prefer it in the tunnel, thanks.

    The analogy becomes humorous when you realize that because of the way content is designed in CO, those coal-yards actually extend back into the tunnel and you've been in them for a while already :biggrin:
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I mean shoot, if I join a super group I get a new costume slot... are they telling me I need to change my costume?

    Yes, to something with your Super Group colors.

    You see, in comic books, a lot of the time, the superheroes on a team wear a costume that's either identical or similar to their team's costumes. But since a lot of people play ninja robot demon anime catgirls (cough) they think it's just a free slot tacked onto joining a supergroup for no reason. :tongue:
    biffsig.jpg
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    The analogy becomes humorous when you realize that because of the way content is designed in CO, those coal-yards actually extend back into the tunnel and you've been in them for a while already :biggrin:
    The analogy actually came to mind when thinking about one of those "lots o' endgame" games, WoW - where the "endgame" seems to be running one of a handful of raids in order to grind the gear you'll need to run the raids. They even have seasons of gear, like heavily-armed fashion models, and Light help you if you're caught wearing last season's gear in public! The tracks just loop around into themselves, endlessly...
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Because endgame is forever. Leveling is the only thing that actually has a point of termination... so, oddly enough, if leveling is what you're all about, then for you the game does have an end, one you may in fact find yourself procrastinating on for years for fear of ending yourself. On the other hand, if you're all about endgame, then the game only ends when you decide not to play it anymore.


    It's all about how you view the light at the end of the tunnel. Either you stay in the darkness of the tunnel, forever glaring fearfully at the blinding light, the contents of which you cannot see... or you walk out the end of the tunnel and realize the light is comprised of an endless field full of joy and wonder.

    ^


    WE CAN HAVE BOTH! I dream of a world where the lairs have 2 stages. Regular and level 40. No wait, make that 3! Level 40, regular, and ELITE! And each can drop different stuff. Do you care about purple secondaries that don't come from a q farm? I do. I can sell em, equip alts with em... Wear em as hats. Eat them with cheese, WHO CARES! But people like them, and elite could drop them more. It wouldn't matter, because the REAL endgame gear comes from the q farm! It would just give the rest of us something to do. What's that taco? The adventure packs drop them pretty often on elite anyway? You're damn right, and I sell them for a good profit. And I'd like to sell more of them for that 10g for those of you that don't want to farm q.

    So help me help you. With your vote, 30g will feed this poor free to play player all of the good secondaries he needs to be able to hang in rampages without needing to farm 350,000q.

    Do it for the kitties!

    rvg520.jpg

    Wait, no. Wrong gif.


    giphy.gif
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Yes, to something with your Super Group colors.

    You see, in comic books, a lot of the time, the superheroes on a team wear a costume that's either identical or similar to their team's costumes. But since a lot of people play ninja robot demon anime catgirls (cough) they think it's just a free slot tacked onto joining a supergroup for no reason. :tongue:

    I'm not a robot u3u

    Also quit stereotyping super groups u3u

    jonsills wrote: »
    The analogy actually came to mind when thinking about one of those "lots o' endgame" games, WoW - where the "endgame" seems to be running one of a handful of raids in order to grind the gear you'll need to run the raids. They even have seasons of gear, like heavily-armed fashion models, and Light help you if you're caught wearing last season's gear in public! The tracks just loop around into themselves, endlessly...

    Well I don't play those games so why would I be in their tunnel or even talking about it? I don't live in Colorado anymore, so I no longer talk about going through arctic winters and having two separate cars stolen and wrecked in one summer... u3u

    Today's Lesson: Endgame has many meanings. CO endgame =/= WoW endgame.


    ^


    WE CAN HAVE BOTH! I dream of a world where the lairs have 2 stages. Regular and level 40. No wait, make that 3! Level 40, regular, and ELITE!

    ...I think you're confused about something. At no point have I been in any way "anti-lair" or "anti-level-40-5-man-higher-difficulty-higher-reward-content".

    So... both doesn't apply here. What you meant to say was "Hey look guys, I finally figured out that we can have endgame content that isn't raids! :D"
  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    That's an example of how not to do it.

    Endgame progression need not be about gearscore and grind. There's more ways to develop and advance your character in game than with better gear.

    Extra power customization options, small buffs, maybe another travel power, none of those are going to exclude someone from a Raid/Rampage because you're missing one.

    Not if its designed properly, aka not like WoW, a major example of how not to implement raids.

    By that line of reasoning, why having gear at all. If we already have decoupled the apperance of the character, gear is simply an addon to the current character abilities. Why would we like justice pieces if we have heroic ones.

    Before reaching level cap characters progress mainly by their levels. After reaching level cap, they progress by gear. Comparing a lvl 40 in greens vs. a lvl40 with justice set will give you the idea of how much distance the game actually have in gear. The issue arises when you want them to coexists in the same level of difficulty, one either get smack or the other bored.

    Talking about wow and how badly in terms of cost/effect raids are. Blizzard makes tons of money with wow, I am pretty sure they can and have very good talent in all gaming related areas. Wow has been running for many years with 5 expansions so far.

    If what the raid-bashing author said is true, why blizzard did not change it, so they could save money and make more people happy. Maybe because they have not found a better alternative. We could stay here all day long bashing blizzard, McDonalds, Walmart, etc by their financial success, given we prefer small businesses. Still, that does not deny that they are more financial viable business strategies that can grow and offer more services in time.

    Most of us could love a game with no gear grind, time and money sinks. However, if the price for that it is a game a little over life support, is it really worth it?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gandales wrote: »
    By that line of reasoning, why having gear at all. If we already have decoupled the apperance of the character, gear is simply an addon to the current character abilities. Why would we like justice pieces if we have heroic ones.

    Before reaching level cap characters progress mainly by their levels. After reaching level cap, they progress by gear. Comparing a lvl 40 in greens vs. a lvl40 with justice set will give you the idea of how much distance the game actually have in gear. The issue arises when you want them to coexists in the same level of difficulty, one either get smack or the other bored.

    Hate to break it to you, but there's not much gear progression at 40. In other games, you have to keep upgrading your gear because if you don't you can't progress through the content. In this game you can hit 40 and already have gear on you that you can do everything in the game with. No seriously, I have level 40s who have level 37-39 auction house gear. The difference between that, heroic, and justice is small and ultimately meaningless.

    So why do we have gear? Stat customization. In those other games you can't really customize your stats as much as you can here - if you're a tank, there's a very narrow range of stats that you can reasonably use. Here, you can get pretty creative with your numbers no matter your role.
    gandales wrote: »
    Talking about wow and how badly in terms of cost/effect raids are. Blizzard makes tons of money with wow, I am pretty sure they can and have very good talent in all gaming related areas. Wow has been running for many years with 5 expansions so far.

    Blizzard makes tons of money with WoW. On the other hand, other companies who have produced games that are near exact clones of WoW are going bankrupt. That's because Blizzard got lucky and was at the center of several very favorable circumstances the lead to their success. If you took everyone at blizzard, cloned them, stuck them into a new no-name company and said "make an MMO to compete with WoW" they would fail just like anyone else, because those circumstances would no longer exist to push them into success. Sure, WoW's not a bad game... but having a large pre-established fan base, a barren landscape, and a hype-train fifty miles long had more to do with their success than anything else.

    McDonalds doesn't continue to be a massive successful industry giant due to the quality of its food.

    gandales wrote: »
    If what the raid-bashing author said is true, why blizzard did not change it

    They did actually. Remember how that game used to have 40 man raids? Remember how endgame used to not include 5 man instances at all? Remember how top-tier gear was raid exclusive?

    gandales wrote: »
    Still, that does not deny that they are more financial viable business strategies that can grow and offer more services in time.

    But if you try to copy what they're doing, you'll fail, because you don't have the financial backing and the fanbase. Go ahead, start up a resteraunt with McDonalds level quality food. If you're lucky Gordon Ramsey will show up to bail you out before you go completely under.
    gandales wrote: »
    Most of us could love a game with no gear grind, time and money sinks. However, if the price for that it is a game a little over life support, is it really worth it?

    This assumes the game would have been more successful if it had followed the raid formula. One of this game's big draws is "casual friendly". If you'll notice, WoW has actually been adopting more and more "casual friendly" design methods... so why would CO do better if it adopted the methods that WoW is slowly shedding?
  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you, but there's not much gear progression at 40. In other games, you have to keep upgrading your gear because if you don't you can't progress through the content. In this game you can hit 40 and already have gear on you that you can do everything in the game with. No seriously, I have level 40s who have level 37-39 auction house gear. The difference between that, heroic, and justice is small and ultimately meaningless.

    So why do we have gear? Stat customization. In those other games you can't really customize your stats as much as you can here - if you're a tank, there's a very narrow range of stats that you can reasonably use. Here, you can get pretty creative with your numbers no matter your role.



    Blizzard makes tons of money with WoW. On the other hand, other companies who have produced games that are near exact clones of WoW are going bankrupt. That's because Blizzard got lucky and was at the center of several very favorable circumstances the lead to their success. If you took everyone at blizzard, cloned them, stuck them into a new no-name company and said "make an MMO to compete with WoW" they would fail just like anyone else, because those circumstances would no longer exist to push them into success. Sure, WoW's not a bad game... but having a large pre-established fan base, a barren landscape, and a hype-train fifty miles long had more to do with their success than anything else.

    McDonalds doesn't continue to be a massive successful industry giant due to the quality of its food.




    They did actually. Remember how that game used to have 40 man raids? Remember how endgame used to not include 5 man instances at all? Remember how top-tier gear was raid exclusive?




    But if you try to copy what they're doing, you'll fail, because you don't have the financial backing and the fanbase. Go ahead, start up a resteraunt with McDonalds level quality food. If you're lucky Gordon Ramsey will show up to bail you out before you go completely under.



    This assumes the game would have been more successful if it had followed the raid formula. One of this game's big draws is "casual friendly". If you'll notice, WoW has actually been adopting more and more "casual friendly" design methods... so why would CO do better if it adopted the methods that WoW is slowly shedding?

    You could have stat customization by direct assignment for each level. Gear is used to give a more material sense of progression and guided customization. It is arguable that difference between a AT lvl40 in greens and AT lvl40 in full justice/vigilante when coming to do rampages, especially in the tanking.

    Respect to wow clones, some do better than others. However, many of them are doing better than CO. Check our sibling games, NWO and STO have gone into sort of gear progression too. Wow and other games plans are not only about raids, but includes so many aspects. The change from 40 to 25/10 was done to made raids more accesible while keeping its complexity at least for the 25man ones. The 5man heroic approach after all raid content has been moreless conquered by progression guilds so smaller guilds have a shot to the raid content before the next expansion. Furthermore, the raid content is usually nerfed bad a few months before the next expansion to make it accessible to most players.

    Could CO have done better with a "raid content"? I can't answer that to certainty. For instance DCUO, which has done better than us in terms of playerbase, has for its endgame: solo, duo, 4-man and 8-man instances. They have gear progression in tiers, the grind is pretty annoying but its players have things to do and things to look forward.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gandales wrote: »
    You could have stat customization by direct assignment for each level. Gear is used to give a more material sense of progression and guided customization. It is arguable that difference between a AT lvl40 in greens and AT lvl40 in full justice/vigilante when coming to do rampages, especially in the tanking.

    Yes, this supports the point I was making. Our gear is just stat customization, with no need to progress through "tiers" to get nearly the full gamut of stat options. Sure, if you don't have 3-4 slot gear, you have to buy a piece of gear with the stat you want baked in, but that doesn't change the end result by enough to make a difference, and these pieces of gear are laughably easy to acquire, even before you start comparing them to what you have to do in those other games to, as Jonsils likes to put it, stay "in fashion".

    In fact, Justice Gear makes so little difference that after getting 3 pieces on one character I lost all care for getting any more. But hey, it's there for the people who still care.
    gandales wrote: »
    Respect to wow clones, some do better than others. However, many of them are doing better than CO. Check our sibling games, NWO and STO have gone into sort of gear progression too. Wow and other games plans are not only about raids, but includes so many aspects. The change from 40 to 25/10 was done to made raids more accesible while keeping its complexity at least for the 25man ones. The 5man heroic approach after all raid content has been moreless conquered by progression guilds so smaller guilds have a shot to the raid content before the next expansion. Furthermore, the raid content is usually nerfed bad a few months before the next expansion to make it accessible to most players.

    Yes, this supports the point I was making, including the way that NWO and STO implemented their gear progression. Larger X-man content is on its way out, smaller bite-size content is being recognized as the thing that has the broadest appeal. The only reason they don't drop raids outright is because no matter what content you remove from a game the players will respond with outrage; you have to remove it slowly so players barely feel the "loss".
    gandales wrote: »
    Could CO have done better with a "raid content"? I can't answer that to certainty. For instance DCUO, which has done better than us in terms of playerbase, has for its endgame: solo, duo, 4-man and 8-man instances. They have gear progression in tiers, the grind is pretty annoying but its players have things to do and things to look forward.

    They also have a big-time licensed name that brought a fanbase along with it, as did STO, and NWO (and WoW). The comparison you're looking for is "Could CO have done better if it had retained the MARVEL license?" and I bet you all my magic the gathering cards that it would have, raids or no.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    I'll have to disagree with large team content being on the way out. It's just poorly represented in games such as WoW.

    Newer games handle these things a lot better. I'm not at max level yet there, but I'll be reporting on my experience in firefall's 20 man raids once I get there. and I can always ask my friends who play them in the meantime.

    I've done them, it works better in an open world-ish first person shooter non-role based game. Because of how "non-MMO" that game is, I can hardly bring myself to call them raids. I like to refer to them as "boss fights".

    There's no "LF1M Need Engineer" or anything going on over there that I've seen. It's the kind of "grab some people and go" content I like.


    For example, the upcoming Brontadon King world boss... I mean you literally just have a giant thing wandering the world, someone calls it out in zone, people jump on it's butt. Removes all the distasteful parts of raiding and just gets right to the fun part.


    Unfortunately, nobody who's looking for "mmo raids" is going to be satisfied with that.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    Well also so long as you have other battleframes leveled you can swap classes at will with the same character too. its altitis without altitis.

    I'm more into the bastion frame for now though. Turret spam ftw. But there's instanced raids as well, isn't Kanaloa in an instance? (the giant lava worm).

    Also an even bigger nastier "elite" Necronus (from blackwater anomaly) would make an EPIC raid boss.

    Yes, and the instances are the same - just grab enough people and go.

    I like my Rhino. Because it's called a Rhino... and I run across the battle field spearing chosen with my horn.... aka laser machine gun OwO
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