Optimizing Defile

moxiedanger · November 2014

I've got a sort of an Infernal/Sorcery hybrid FF that I'm really enjoying so far (only level 20), and looking ahead, I know I want to pick up Defile as my big gun. What are some options for optimizing that particular attack?

Currently, I'm running with the following things (which I would like to keep if at all possible):

Passive: Fiery Form
Toggle: Concentration
Energy Unlock: Supernatural Power*
Super Stats: Int/Dex/Rec
Specs: Int/Avenger/Vindicator; Avenger Mastery (propsoed)

I'm also using Circle of Arcane Power in boss fights, as it both fits the theme, and should help obviate some of Defile's energy concerns.

Does this look about right and/or decent?

*I seem to remember reading somewhere that SSing End instead of Rec is preferable for Supernatural Power; yea/nay? I'm also on the fence about just switching to MSA, using Conviction to fuel it, and swapping out Rec for Con.

purin1 · November 2014

You can look into picking up the power Fire Snake from the Fire tree. It applies a stacking elemental resist debuff, so it should greatly increase your damage output with Defile (since Toxic damage is considered Elemental Damage) and should also fit the theme of the build well.

From my experience with Supernatural Power, it has a slight delay for proccing after using an Infernal Supernatural power bringing you below the breakpoint to give you the energy back. It was just enough for me to notice, but not something that completely turned me away from it. But it's something to think about along the fact that you are already using Int as a primary superstat, so you'll be getting more energy returns from MSA because of Conviction and any other cooldowns you may have (Fire Snake would be another).

I believe swapping out REC for CON as a superstat could be beneficial just because Fiery Form does not provide much innate defense. I believe with INT as a primary reducing energy costs, MSA giving you great energy returns, and Circle of Arcane Power will give you more than enough energy management to justify dropping REC as a superstat.

Good luck with the build, Defile is a great power.

flowcyto · November 2014

I'd imagine getting high enough crit w/ Avenger Mastery and Preemptive Strikes would make charged Infernal Blast -> tap Defile the best 'rotation' if ya wanna use Defile for more than an opener/debuff. Its similar to Shadow Blast and ER w/ Spirit Reverb in that respect, but throwing in Firesnake too and having 10x stacks of DP rolling naturally over time. You'll want to cycle Ego Surge w/ NM w/ another crit-based AO if that's the case, cause it takes a really high crit% for it to work well.

I don't find outright Defile spam to be as efficient- it doesn't stack or refresh/proc DP naturally, and activation delays when chaining one spell also lower its dps, even if you can use CoAP to help circumvent energy issues (CoAP scaling w/ Rec as well).

If ya use R3 CoAP then ya dun fully need to SS Rec by lvl 40 to afford even charged Defile spam, as long as ya have enough Int for Concnetration and some cost discount gear, w/ some Rec on the side. Rec SS can then be dropped for Con SS for Nimble Mind scaling and the health. Only issue w/ that setup is you'll be bound to the circle to really do what ya want w/ ur rotation.

moxiedanger · November 2014

I mucked about with this setup a bit, and the smell test has me thinking that Defile spam is, as Flow said, not so great; 10x Deadly Poison seems like a better goal. However as an opener/Avenger Mastery quick-charge blast, it works very well.

I still like Supernatural Recovery, though. MSA just wasn't cutting it. That said: is it better to Talent/Gear for End or Rec with that EU?

I do still like CoAP, both for thematic reasons and obviating energy concerns. Being rooted doesn't bother me, as by the time I might actually need/want it, it'd just be me and a boss.

Fire Snake! Good call, I forgot all about that. And it is definitely in theme.

Merci!

morigosa · November 2014

I've got a defile user that's built something like this.

Not 100% sure on talents, but I think that's right. You'll want to gear for crit chance, and will probably need to gear for some amount of cost reduction (instead of exclusively focusing on cooldown reduction).

Basic attack sequence (single target) is full charge defile, tap defile until avenger mastery procs, full charge infernal blast, repeat. Once you've got a decent crit chance, this will usually keep poison stacks up. Sometimes you won't have enough energy for a full charge on defile; when this happens... oh well, so be it. But you should always have enough energy for a tap defile, and you should end up with enough equilibrium for full charge + tap (important since you won't get the energy return from SP until after you've gotten that first tap off).

And yes, endurance is generally better for making Supernatural Power work, due to its larger contribution to your max energy - which in turn increases the 15% limit under which SP will actually proc.

I went trail blazer over r3 fire snake because I prefer to stay at range; if you expect to be up close, r3 becomes the better choice.

bravehoptoad · November 2014

moxiedanger wrote: »

I still like Supernatural Recovery, though. MSA just wasn't cutting it. That said: is it better to Talent/Gear for End or Rec with that EU?

Second vote for END powering SP. I say why here: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4486261&postcount=3

flowcyto · November 2014

End is generally better for Supernatural Power, w/ the caveat that CoAP scales w/ Rec, and that some Rec is still good for equilibrium besides (as well as better energy return for non-SN moves- but if ur using too many of those or too often then ya may want a diff EU).

leewill · November 2014

I have a scourge-based FF character, and if I were you I'd use Ego-Con-Rec as your superstats. Ego primary has much better damage, higher crit chance, and higher offense and defense. Since you're not using a defensive passive, you'll need some Con for more survivability. You do not need any extra End for this build. For spec trees use Ego-Guardian-Vindicator and ego mastery. Use the scourge innate talent. To increase damage, another trick you can use is force eruption with the gravitational polarity advantage, that's good for another 15% damage while you stand in it. Fire snake, as someone else said, can also boost your elemental damage. This setup should give you much better damage. Let me know if you have any questions.

flowcyto · November 2014

Ego PSS is a good option too, but depending on the target's resistance and/or whether you are using a DUC, its not always higher dps than Int PSS (it generally is if the effective target's resist is low w/o using Detect Invuln). Also, Int PSS setup can get high crit thanks to Expertise or Enlightened and some Dex gearing. The added Defense from Force of Will is pretty nice, though.

Also, Grav Polarity is not what I'd recommend. The 15% is additive, requires standing in the well, and likely you won't be close enough for the Force Eruptions to be hitting ur target. For dps FFs, its not really a notable dps increase overall due to the upkeep required and the 15% being on the harsh passive dmg DR. I'd save the power slot and adv points for something else.

baelogventure · November 2014

You might just want to consider using Defile for it's debuff and go full on Epidemic spam.

chalupaoffury · November 2014

There are a few options, so let's go off the beaten path here. Infernal mage? Infernal mage. We can do that.There's a lot of room to add in whatever else you want, you'll probably do well to find a good AOE, and a lifedrain heal wouldn't go amiss. I'd probably take venomous breath as the aoe, since for the most part you're gonna be a turret. Plus, breathing a plague of flies at people? THAT'S HARDCORE.

ego/con/int

fire snake
aura of primal majesty
ebon circle
shadow blast
spirit reverb
defile
toxic nanites/sonic device
dark transfusion / blood sacrifice
ego surge / nimble mind

For specs, the important ones would be Follow Through and Exploit Opening from ego tree, as well as ranged cost discount. Pre-emptive strike and surprise attack from avenger. Make it count/find the mark/the best defense from guardian.

You'll get energy from the fear effects you toss out and passively generate, therefore completely deleting any energy issues you might have. Your blast will make defile hit harder. the on next hit won't suck. ebon circle/dark transfusion should amplify the damage pretty fantastically, especially considering the fact that your passive isn't really gonna get in the way.

Point: firey form isn't really gonna help a ton with Defile. It does boost the damage, but honestly you'll find a lot more effectiveness with either one of the sorcery passives or pestilence. Then again, I've never been a fan of the passive as it stands. Fire's a set that started out strong but seems to be slowly getting left behind as new powers are released.

leewill · December 2014

The force eruption with grav polarity is more useful than you're giving it credit for. It falls into the "best offense is a good defense" category. Force eruption with ego primary is a great way to get enemies and other players off you FAST. After you send them flying away 80ft or more, you have enough time to charge up for a big Defile attack...with an extra 15% damage behind it. That is a significant damage boost in anyone's book. You can spam Epidemic until they get to you, then send them flying with force eruption, then wind up for the big attack. If you have Ego primary, you may as well have at least one knock power to take advantage of the increased ranged knock.

flowcyto · December 2014

The 15% on Grav Polarity is additive/passive- its not final dmg. On a dps FF it'll be closer to 2-3% final dmg, which isn't really that much. Plus, knocking enemies flying isn't always good- it can be counterproductive (esp if they get knocked into obstacles and stuck there- had to quit quite a few alerts cause an enemy got knocked and couldn't be reached anymore, but was required to kill). Even then, the extra dmg and fall dmg from R3 Eruption could outdo the small dmg boost grav polarity would give you for a Defile, if we're talking just that specific scenario.

Would much rather save a power slot and the adv points, esp in a non-Force themed build.

leewill · December 2014

I didn't realize the 15% was added to the damage "equation", the descriptions on most powers are not adequate enough to make an informed decision. IMHO, they REALLY need to write better descriptions for a lot of the powers, especially telling us exactly how much something will boost/subtract damage, healing etc. Telling us that an advantage will lower an attack's damage slightly is not cool. How much? 1%, 5%, 20%? If we knew the number we could make better decisions.
He didn't have much defense at all in this build, and I thought getting enemies off would be an advantage to survival, plus adding some damage. Some people don't like knocks, but in this instance I think it's fine. Force eruption has less knock range than most other knocks. Although, you're probably right by saying that he'd be better off with something else. Just trying to help.

flowcyto · December 2014

leewill wrote: »

I didn't realize the 15% was added to the damage "equation", the descriptions on most powers are not adequate enough to make an informed decision. IMHO, they REALLY need to write better descriptions for a lot of the powers, especially telling us exactly how much something will boost/subtract damage, healing etc. Telling us that an advantage will lower an attack's damage slightly is not cool. How much? 1%, 5%, 20%? If we knew the number we could make better decisions.
He didn't have much defense at all in this build, and I thought getting enemies off would be an advantage to survival, plus adding some damage. Some people don't like knocks, but in this instance I think it's fine. Force eruption has less knock range than most other knocks. Although, you're probably right by saying that he'd be better off with something else. Just trying to help.

I'm not trying to be too critical of you or anything. I mean, the basic premise is sound- if the adv truly was 15% 'base' or overall dmg added, then it'd def be worth considering in this and many other builds. But like CoEW (whose dmg boost is also in the lowest, or 'passive dmg' layer), it just doesn't work out that way for most FF builds.

And yeah, they could better clarify this sorta stuff in the tooltips; there's numerous issues w/ them as is, but at least there's other sources to look up info like this. Basically, never fully trust what's described in game - though assume most 'damage bonus' descriptions are referring to the lowest 'passive' layer, since that is the general trend.

If ya want more info on the dmg layers in this game, cause Cryptic certainly lives up to their name there, ya can see this sticky:
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=288871

leewill · December 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

I'm not trying to be too critical of you or anything. I mean, the basic premise is sound- if the adv truly was 15% 'base' or overall dmg added, then it'd def be worth considering in this and many other builds. But like CoEW (whose dmg boost is also in the lowest, or 'passive dmg' layer), it just doesn't work out that way for most FF builds.

And yeah, they could better clarify this sorta stuff in the tooltips; there's numerous issues w/ them as is, but at least there's other sources to look up info like this. Basically, never fully trust what's described in game - though assume most 'damage bonus' descriptions are referring to the lowest 'passive' layer, since that is the general trend.

If ya want more info on the dmg layers in this game, cause Cryptic certainly lives up to their name there, ya can see this sticky:
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=288871

That's good info, thanks for posting that. I'm a little confused about what percentage of the "equation" the various layers are. For instance, how much does offense contribute to total damage? If it's not that much I may have to consider a retcon on a few of my toons. I try to maximize offense and defense as much as I can, but if offense is relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of damage, I need to rethink some stuff. Any info you could give to help clarify this would be helpful....thanks.

flowcyto · December 2014

Well, as the sticky outlines there are multiple 'layers' to the formula for considering basic dmg. The lowest/passive layer has a lower impact because its in an early layer of the general formula, but also because the bonus itself diminishes harshly past a certain point- which is much steeper for FFs than ATs.

The algorithms are complicated overall, but to give a general example: a +50% passive dmg boost for a dps FF would be closer to a 11-13% 'final' dmg boost at 1 stack of a dmg toggle (Concentration, Focus, Enrage, etc) and 6-9% dmg at 8 stacks of a dmg toggle. How much the bonus is diminished depends on how much passive dmg you've already accumulated, but w/ toggles, SS's, Ego/Str, and offensive passives all giving the same type of bonus dmg, its pretty easy for it to pile all up and lead you rather heavily into diminishing returns (the diminishing point, iirc, starts at about 100% passive dmg bonus total for FFs, which can be gotten from a damage toggle alone).

Optimizing Defile

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