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Petition: Cryptic North, take a year off.

spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
edited November 2014 in Champions Online Discussion
Okay everyone put your adamantium pitch forks and quantum powered torches away u.u


I think that Cryptic North should take a year off from producing "content" and instead use that year to fix things, dig through the code and figure out how stuff works, do some extensive internal play-testing to really map out the balance of the game and figure that out.


Yes, people will complain, people will threaten to leave, people will whine that they're bored, compare you to world war two political groups, etc... After that year they'll all shut up when you start shoving bug fixes, effective balance tweaks, innovative content, and brand new features in their face.


"When your car gets a flat tire, you don't just keep going and hope you can make up for it with enthusiasm. You pull into the pit, fix it up, and catch up on the next lap."
Post edited by spinnytop on
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Comments

  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I doubt they have any deciding power to do it if PWE wants them to churn out new alerts / Z store stuff consistently if it takes priority over bug fixes.
  • jasinblazejasinblaze Posts: 1,360 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    they need income, income is made from people buying things, if they dont introduce new things there is much less money.
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Okay everyone put your adamantium pitch forks and quantum powered torches away u.u


    I think that Cryptic North should take a year off from producing "content" and instead use that year to fix things, dig through the code and figure out how stuff works, do some extensive internal play-testing to really map out the balance of the game and figure that out.


    Yes, people will complain, people will threaten to leave, people will whine that they're bored, compare you to world war two political groups, etc... After that year they'll all shut up when you start shoving bug fixes, effective balance tweaks, innovative content, and brand new features in their face.


    "When your car gets a flat tire, you don't just keep going and hope you can make up for it with enthusiasm. You pull into the pit, fix it up, and catch up on the next lap."


    Your petition is 4 years too late.
    ....
    Let's play that the maze is Cryptic Engine.
    .........We're here right now:
    fractal.gif
    ...........................................................................................................................This is where we're supposed to be.
    CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
    And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Yeah, not signed. There is stuff it would be nice to see fixed, but the game is playable.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited October 2014
    *shrug*
    Forum petitions are nicely melodramatic, but otherwise pointless.
    Who cares?
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The pendulum is already swinging back to bug fixes. We had Fatal Err0r, we had a lot of seasonal events/lockboxes and bug fixes, we got Steel Crusade. Now it looks like we're getting more bug fixes. Exactly what gets fixed remains open for debate (and at least one forum self-immolation), but that appears to be the pattern right now.
    Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,444 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    If there should be a petition for anything, its that they need to dedicate more devs to the game. A full team for an MMO would be nice.
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    If there should be a petition for anything, its that they need to dedicate more devs to the game. A full team for an MMO would be nice.

    Not any DR devs though. CO does not need (nor want) time gates and super uber elite queues on top of alt-hostile systems.
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    Your petition is 4 years too late.
    ....
    Let's play that the maze is Cryptic Engine.
    .........We're here right now:
    fractal.gif
    ...........................................................................................................................This is where we're supposed to be.

    That... that actually looks like it would be fun.
  • bdragon4cobdragon4co Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    If the PWE really wanted to, they could iron out every bug in this game in a month, but its not really worth it seeing as how a lot of them are small.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    bdragon4co wrote: »
    If the PWE really wanted to, they could iron out every bug in this game in a month.
    Says someone who has never worked in software engineering.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Says someone who has never worked in software engineering.
    Quoted for truth. I can't even begin to explain to someone who's never coded just how difficult bugs can be to find - the more so when the bugs were first coded by someone who left the shop years ago, sometimes in a different language than is currently used, in code with no comments and little if any documentation.

    (My personal least favorite was in the AF in the '80s, when we were trying to upgrade some old modules used in planning the SIOP. They were coded in FORTRAN. Not even FORTRAN 77, but the older version. And none of the original programmers were even still in the service, much less still assigned to Offutt AFB. Turned out to be quicker and easier to figure out what the code was supposed to do, then rewrite it ourselves in the language we were using - COBOL. Turing help the folks who have to maintain that code today!)

    It should also be noted that CO uses some terrible spaghetti coding. Remember when the Nighthawk missions were added for a special event, and all the Chat died for a couple of weeks as a result? And the only way to fix spaghetti code is, again, to rip it all out and recode it from line 10. Not a quick process.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,224 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Yeah, fixing bugs sucks and isn't usually easy work, but that's part of what coder's sign up for when they made that (often high-paying) career choice for a professional job.

    I have some sympathy for programmers and engineers, but it only goes far. Many professional jobs have difficult tasks- that doesn't mean they should never be attempted.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    "Difficult" is one thing. "Fixing every single bug in the code in one month" verges on the impossible.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    "Difficult" is one thing. "Fixing every single bug in the code in one month" verges on the impossible.
    I would go so far as to call it completely impossible, even given unlimited funding.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,224 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    "Difficult" is one thing. "Fixing every single bug in the code in one month" verges on the impossible.

    The latter is not what I'd ask of them, though. Some headway into long-standing bugs would be nice, but to expect any MMO to be bug-free is outright silly imo.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • bdragon4cobdragon4co Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Says someone who has never worked in software engineering.

    Exactly. How would I know? I just the play the game and let the developers worry about bugs.

    EDIT: I guess it would depend on the bug. I'm thinking more of an "Oops! We changed the name of Defender in RenCen to 'Power Armor Guy'" kind of bugs. What kind of bugs have people been finding?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    bdragon4co wrote: »
    EDIT: I guess it would depend on the bug. I'm thinking more of an "Oops! We changed the name of Defender in RenCen to 'Power Armor Guy'" kind of bugs. What kind of bugs have people been finding?
    Typos I wouldn't even class as bugs, but even something as straightforward as 'find all the geometry holes and fix them' is a gigantic project.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited October 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Yeah, fixing bugs sucks and isn't usually easy work, but that's part of what coder's sign up for when they made that (often high-paying) career choice for a professional job.

    I have some sympathy for programmers and engineers, but it only goes far. Many professional jobs have difficult tasks- that doesn't mean they should never be attempted.

    Don't blame the developers. They're knee-deep in code not only written by people who aren't there any longer, they're also a much smaller team than the original. It's easy for a team of 30 guys to demolish 20 pizzas, but that becomes a more difficult task when you're just a handful of guys.

    Forgive the stupid analogy, I just woke up.
    biffsig.jpg
  • oddbirdyoddbirdy Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Fixing all the bugs in this game isn't a simple task, it's more of one hell of a project.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,224 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Don't blame the developers. They're knee-deep in code not only written by people who aren't there any longer, they're also a much smaller team than the original. It's easy for a team of 30 guys to demolish 20 pizzas, but that becomes a more difficult task when you're just a handful of guys.

    Forgive the stupid analogy, I just woke up.

    yeah, I'm not blaming CN. It seems like the original engine used for the game was overly convoluted and not up to the task for a dynamic world- def archaic by today's standards. Like, they can't get ground vehicles implemented or have traffic properly adjust to terrain w/o using a set track. Objects in this game are incredibly janky, and the basic targeting system is sluggish. Can't get the UI working in >5 man teams, pvp queues are basically messed up. Old items spilling out weird values and tooltips. Prob many other things I can't think of now.. all that show how much I'd rather they just make a CO 2 w/ a new engine, rather than patching up this creaky thing (pipe dream, I know).
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • zedbrightlander1zedbrightlander1 Posts: 3,797 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    Your petition is 4 years too late.
    ....
    Let's play that the maze is Cryptic Engine.
    .........We're here right now:
    fractal.gif
    ...........................................................................................................................This is where we're supposed to be.

    Since my heroes can fly, this was my solution to the maze.
    -
    directroute-fractal-001.jpg
    ZedBlock-200.jpg
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,224 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    So all CN needs to do is hire a superhero, right? Shouldn't be too hard- maybe easier than finding a willing programmer these days.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Don't blame the developers. They're knee-deep in code not only written by people who aren't there any longer, they're also a much smaller team than the original. It's easy for a team of 30 guys to demolish 20 pizzas, but that becomes a more difficult task when you're just a handful of guys.

    Forgive the stupid analogy, I just woke up.

    If not devs, then blame is likely going to the management. When writing code there are some guidelines for future maintainance so if the original coder is gone it won't be too dificult for other devs to understand old code. At this point it would probably trace back to ATARI times.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    gandales wrote: »
    If not devs, then blame is likely going to the management. When writing code there are some guidelines for future maintainance so if the original coder is gone it won't be too dificult for other devs to understand old code. At this point it would probably trace back to ATARI times.

    Why is figuring out who to blame important?
  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Why is figuring out who to blame important?

    In the same way it is desirable to give people credit for their achievements they should be also accountable for their mistakes. In that way, it is more likely to avoid the same or a similar mistake to be repeated in the future.

    Because if nobody is to blame, then why are we complaining?:tongue:
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    gandales wrote: »
    In the same way it is desirable to give people credit for their achievements they should be also accountable for their mistakes. In that way, it is more likely to avoid the same or a similar mistake to be repeated in the future.

    Because if nobody is to blame, then why are we complaining?:tongue:

    We're complaining because the game isn't fulfilling certain needs that we feel it could fulfill because we have observed the potential for it to fulfill those needs and have varying ideas for what is standing in the way of it doing so. As an addendum to that, we have surmised that these needs will not be fulfilled anywhere else in the foreseeable future.

    How is figuring out who to blame an effective tool in solving any of that? What do you envision will happen once we've all agreed on who is to blame?
  • rianfrostrianfrost Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    We're complaining because the game isn't fulfilling certain needs that we feel it could fulfill because we have observed the potential for it to fulfill those needs and have varying ideas for what is standing in the way of it doing so. As an addendum to that, we have surmised that these needs will not be fulfilled anywhere else in the foreseeable future.

    How is figuring out who to blame an effective tool in solving any of that? What do you envision will happen once we've all agreed on who is to blame?
    nothing will happen either way really, nothing we say on here will affect a single thing really, and outside of a few contest design things, our actual affect on the game is the binary of pay/non pay, and that includes this thread, nothing will change anything with cryptic or pwi, and we will get what we get based solely on what pwi says we will get. its all pretty pointless really. people who are sick of it will continue leaving and the specific community that unconditionally accepts everything done here will still spend far too long yelling at any dissenters, but very little will be done and it certainly wont be done based on our feedback.

    oh and zinger response..im waiting for them to take a full year ON.
  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    We're complaining because the game isn't fulfilling certain needs that we feel it could fulfill because we have observed the potential for it to fulfill those needs and have varying ideas for what is standing in the way of it doing so. As an addendum to that, we have surmised that these needs will not be fulfilled anywhere else in the foreseeable future.

    How is figuring out who to blame an effective tool in solving any of that? What do you envision will happen once we've all agreed on who is to blame?

    If the game is not fulfilling your its potential is because either something that was done or something that was not done. Either way, in order to achieve this goal it is important to look for the source of the problem, which includes the group of people involved.

    I am not sure which is your concern, the people who should take the most of the blame are, most likely, long gone from the game by now. Proper credit assignment is usually what professional companies' organization strive for, I don't understand why you are so reluctant about it.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Foxi how 'bout yew take a year off :D
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • tfavsb10tfavsb10 Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I would go so far as to call it completely impossible, even given unlimited funding.

    Unlimited funding is a fantasy... Sure you could do anything with unlimited funding. But thats an impossibility too.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    gandales wrote: »
    If the game is not fulfilling your its potential is because either something that was done or something that was not done. Either way, in order to achieve this goal it is important to look for the source of the problem, which includes the group of people involved.

    For that to be important, you have to explain what happens when we figure out who we decide to blame. Anything? Does anything happen? Because I think the opposite will happen.. nothing.
    gandales wrote: »
    I am not sure which is your concern, the people who should take the most of the blame are, most likely, long gone from the game by now.

    So if the people to blame are gone... then what will pointing fingers at them do?
    gandales wrote: »
    Proper credit assignment is usually what professional companies' organization strive for, I don't understand why you are so reluctant about it.

    Oh, are you a Cryptic executive now?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    nepht wrote: »
    Foxi how 'bout yew take a year off :D

    Sure, I'll join you and Caliga.


    #CONQUERDEADSUPERGROUP
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    For sure not signed. The game needs money to stay alive. If you've got just a few people on your team and tight budgets then your options are:

    1. Do everything you can to make enough $ in the short-term to justify your continued existence from one quarter to the next.

    2. Do the above + address a few of the most critical long-term issues on an ongoing basis.

    3. Shut things down and move on.

    Most people do #3. We seem to be at #1 through the sheer will and effort of CN, for which I am very thankful. We'll hopefully make headway into #2, but it may take some time.

    Cash is the oxygen of a business. It has to be your first priority - then you can worry about longer term stuff like food and shelter. Given all the lockboxes coming out, it's pretty safe to say that no one can afford to take even a single quarter off of the current release cycle let alone a full year.
  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    For that to be important, you have to explain what happens when we figure out who we decide to blame. Anything? Does anything happen? Because I think the opposite will happen.. nothing.



    So if the people to blame are gone... then what will pointing fingers at them do?



    Oh, are you a Cryptic executive now?

    Not sure, how to answer this. It seems that you are taking Cryptic's defense too seriously.

    Fine, they can take your year off doing whatever they want, including playing dcuo.:biggrin:
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    kamokami wrote: »
    For sure not signed.

    Pssst, I'm not actually looking for signatures ~.^ a master troll like you should have spotted that right away :|
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    gandales wrote: »
    Not sure, how to answer this. It seems that you are taking Cryptic's defense too seriously.

    Fine, they can take your year off doing whatever they want, including playing dcuo.:biggrin:

    To correct you, you were taking the "find who to blame" thing too seriously, and I was tearing apart your entire logic for doing so... which was easy, because it was about as flimsy as a wet tissue.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Sure, I'll join you and Caliga.


    #CONQUERUNDEADSUPERGROUP

    You wont mind if I kick you then :3

    thats a JK btw :P
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    nepht wrote: »
    You wont mind if I kick you then :3

    thats a JK btw :P

    black text isn't even close to invisible tho, git gud :/
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    black text isn't even close to invisible tho, git gud :/

    Sorry my bad!
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yo but git gud tho.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=10949&d=1403788740

    Wuts this thread about again?

    blargyboo!
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    nepht wrote: »
    Wuts this thread about again?

    blargyboo!

    Nah, git gud.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Pssst, I'm not actually looking for signatures ~.^ a master troll like you should have spotted that right away :|

    It doesn't matter what you're looking for. Guess I'm not the master troll you think I am.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    kamokami wrote: »
    It doesn't matter what you're looking for. Guess I'm not the master troll you think I am.

    Fine u3u ur no TuffTeddy that's for sure.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Girls, girls.....you're both the prettiest trolls, okay?
    zrdRBy8.png
    Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Girls, girls.....you're both the prettiest trolls, okay?

    Original u3u
  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,409 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Y'all POSEURS!!

    It can be safely assumed that all the code-scanning and understanding stuff is being done as it comes along. So, while we keep getting odd new things, CN hopefully and slowly gets more skilled with the tools.
    How to block a user with μblock:
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  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Original u3u

    Thank u3u you u3u weeaboo u3u.
    zrdRBy8.png
    Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Girls, girls.....you're both the prettiest trolls, okay?

    On the internet, everyone is a girl. :>
This discussion has been closed.