test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Passives, Offense/Defense, Dodge/Crit, and balance.
bluhman
Posts: 2,410 Arc User
If you do any build-making in this game, you quickly realize that Crit and Dodge are the end-all be-alls: Crits can instantly add a huge boost to any of your attacks or heals, and while the chances start low, they're extremely easy to boost, and the benefits are immediately apparent when crit chance is above 40-50%. Meanwhile, with offense, having around 600 in this stat only grants each of your attacks about 40% more base damage - or in practical terms, like 30 more damage per tap attack or maintain tick.
Defense and Dodge are a different story, in that they're both good to have - they stack worthily, and both work in tandem to make for a character that can be very hard to put down. The problem, however, is that, of the two, Dodge takes complete precedence in all cases - it has a heal that synnergizes with its chances, can be directly boosted by using moves like Evasive Maneuvers or Parry, and as a result, it becomes extremely easy to cut the damage of above 50% of attacks to much lower levels if built to dodge - and that all happens on top of cutting damage by about 25% (50% damage reduction) from defense.
Critical hits and dodges, basically, are way too powerful. But we don't want just a flat nerf; characters should still retain their same level of effectiveness, while perhaps being more geared to do things more consistently - or not, depending on what passive they take.
So the idea behind this is that all passives get divided up into sub-types: Power Passives, and Finesse Passives. Depending on which sub-type they fall under, they will do one of two things:
Finesse Passives work under the current game's stat scaling - they will gain high benefit from having equipment that boosts crit chance and dodge, but only gain small benefits from having offense and defense. Depending on whether the passive is offense, defense, or support, the stats that get the largest benefits will be altered.
Power passives, on the other hand, get things flipped around. Characters using Power Passives (or no passive, for that matter) will be lucky if they ever get a critical chance above 20-30%. Dodge chance is likewise. On the other hand, their usage of Offense, Defense, and Heal Strength becomes much more sizable - to the point that they operate just as well as chance-crazy finesse characters, just more consistent. Much like Finesse, the type of passive it is (offense, defense, support) modifies what largest bonuses are offered.
As for what exactly falls under these categories:
Power:
Finesse:
In general, the best way to build will still likely focus upon stacking crits and dodges on top of offense/defense. Just that the final playstyle flavor that results out of the combination gets shifted in the direction of either chance or consistency. The balance between the chance stats and flat buff stats, though, becomes a lot more even by default, with the baseline of Offense/Defense being a bit more powerful (or in Offense's case, a LOT more powerful) and Crit/Dodge being a bit less effective.. yup.
Defense and Dodge are a different story, in that they're both good to have - they stack worthily, and both work in tandem to make for a character that can be very hard to put down. The problem, however, is that, of the two, Dodge takes complete precedence in all cases - it has a heal that synnergizes with its chances, can be directly boosted by using moves like Evasive Maneuvers or Parry, and as a result, it becomes extremely easy to cut the damage of above 50% of attacks to much lower levels if built to dodge - and that all happens on top of cutting damage by about 25% (50% damage reduction) from defense.
Critical hits and dodges, basically, are way too powerful. But we don't want just a flat nerf; characters should still retain their same level of effectiveness, while perhaps being more geared to do things more consistently - or not, depending on what passive they take.
So the idea behind this is that all passives get divided up into sub-types: Power Passives, and Finesse Passives. Depending on which sub-type they fall under, they will do one of two things:
Finesse Passives work under the current game's stat scaling - they will gain high benefit from having equipment that boosts crit chance and dodge, but only gain small benefits from having offense and defense. Depending on whether the passive is offense, defense, or support, the stats that get the largest benefits will be altered.
- Offense gets slightly higher benefits from Crit Chance gearing, and a small bonus to Crit Severity as well.
- Defense gets a boost to Dodge Chance gearing, and a small perk to Avoidance.
- Support gets an extra boost to Recharge gearing, and a smaller bonus to Critical chance for heals
Power passives, on the other hand, get things flipped around. Characters using Power Passives (or no passive, for that matter) will be lucky if they ever get a critical chance above 20-30%. Dodge chance is likewise. On the other hand, their usage of Offense, Defense, and Heal Strength becomes much more sizable - to the point that they operate just as well as chance-crazy finesse characters, just more consistent. Much like Finesse, the type of passive it is (offense, defense, support) modifies what largest bonuses are offered.
- Offense gets a higher... Well, offense rating, as well as a bonus to defense ignore
- Defense gets a boost to defense, and a perk to health recovery/effectiveness of heals on self
- Utility gets a boost to heal strength, and a small bonus to Recharge gearing
As for what exactly falls under these categories:
Power:
- All energy forms
- Personal Force Field
- Medical Nanites
- Invulnerability
- Unstoppable
- Defiance
- Regeneration
Finesse:
- Targetting Computer
- Quarry
- Way of the Warrior
- Lightning Reflexes
- Shadow Warrior
- Sorcery Auras
In general, the best way to build will still likely focus upon stacking crits and dodges on top of offense/defense. Just that the final playstyle flavor that results out of the combination gets shifted in the direction of either chance or consistency. The balance between the chance stats and flat buff stats, though, becomes a lot more even by default, with the baseline of Offense/Defense being a bit more powerful (or in Offense's case, a LOT more powerful) and Crit/Dodge being a bit less effective.. yup.
How to block a user with μblock:
forum.arcgames.com##.Comment:has(.CommentHeader:has-text(username))
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Of course these'd be pretty sweeping changes. Actually, heck, I'd first implement the offense buff and crit debuff and see how much that might change things.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=205241
Was one attempt to put other special ways to give other playstyles. Absorption Shield is another way to play.
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
So NO.
The game may well need fixes, but it certainly does not need any more fixes that limit build creativity.
I don't see how making more uncommon builds and increasing the number of viable options when making a character is a limitation.
Allowing more people that don't go for the (current)best things but can still be viable despite not selecting a certain set of stats to utilize is something I fully support.
Deliciously nutritious!
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
That's all you had to say.
By level 40, this should not be an issue. I've been using equipment that I find from fighting baddies here and there. My critical rates are sub par on a few of my heroes, because I've dedicated my talents to other statistics. My dedication to other stats does not make them any less in the teames I've been on.
This type of change would likely drive me further away from my "speedster", who relies on dodging and criticals in melee combat. His highest critical is a slow-charging kick for around 1.2 - 1.9k at level 40, against tough foes. The idea behind this character is to not get hit at all.
In a game where players are Super Heroes, you'll never find balance. The point of the game is to be "over the top". It has changed a lot, but I think this has been the backbone of the experience since beta.
There's a thread about nerfs in the general section. I suggest reading Auldwolf's comment.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3304411
Also damage absorption is another defense that could be easily stacked by mods to give more options on what you use for defense.
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
It would be interesting if they changed the +offense mods so that instead of just adding offense rating, they instead increase your current damage bonus from offense by a percent.
i.e.
Say you currently have X Offense Rating, which gives you a damage bonus of 40%. If you now slot a +Offense Rating mod, that damage bonus might increase to 41%, but probably not, since currently that extra offense rating is a small drop in a large, already very full bucket.
So instead...
When you slot that +Offense Rating mod, it increases your damage bonus by 20%(value dependent on rank of mod), or .40+(.40*.20), giving you a damage bonus of 48%.
This could be extended to offense gear in the primary and secondary slot, such that the piece in the primary slot gives a bonus of 40%, and the secondary another 20%.
This means that if you have equipped primary and secondary +offense pieces, and have a +offense mod in the primary, your damage bonus becomes
.40 + ( .40 * .80 ) <--- as you can see, the offense bonuses are all added together
or 72% bonus damage, after diminishing returns.
This gives players a choice:
-equip crit gear and mods for the current damage potential
-equip offense gear to deal an additional 32% damage all the time, but give up frequent/large crits
-or do a mix of the two for a middle ground.
In addition:
I would like to see them change the talent in Strength spec that gives +crit chance, into one that gives a % bonus to offense as outlined above.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
There goes my Might and Heavy Weapon Builds, which were all about raw damage, now I've got to add crits to avoid looking like a chihuahua next to some sword wielding chick.
When and why did they do this?
20+% of spec trees are now useless. 200 pnts of offense was about +30% dam strength and 300 pnts was about +36%, now 300 pnts is only worth about 10% and 200 pnts is worth about 7%.
Yipppeeeee. not
Well on the bonus side, I've got another retcon per character, but I'm almost like why bother, they're just going to change it again. So I've still got my Gold Account until they fix the game or it goes the way of City of Heroes.
Here is a table I constructed of Off to Dam Strength about 10 months ago:
Off Dam Strength
622 +45%
526 +43%
495 +43%
474 +42%
437 +41%
343 +38%
323 +37%
284 +35%
207 +31%
Today I get the following:
324 +11%
237 + 8.5%
So at 323/324 that's a reduction of 26% Damage Strength, not an increase.
Please post whatever Damage Strengths you're getting for different offense levels now, if they'
re different than me.
Respectfully yours,
B
Offense is now a multiplicative damage buff. The numbers you get today will (for most builds) actually produce more of a damage increase than the additive buff numbers you had before.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
At around 300 OFF? Before the changes, that 37% increase to your damage power was applied before any other buff was. That is to say, before your specs, actives, passives, stacks, and so forth. This seems fair until you consider just how much sheer power all of those elements combined give your character: Many Offense Passives, for example, can give you up to 70-100% damage boosts multiplicatively. Then there's also superstat boosts, role boosts, and all other kinds of nickling and diming buffs that make your final damage number much much higher than the recorded base damage of a power.
But today, with around 300 OFF, Your 11% damage bonus is actually 11%: Applied on top of the final product. Let's take the example of Two-Gun Mojo. What's better: 37% of 201 (the damage it does per-tick on a character with no superstats or buffs of any kind), or 11% of 1453?
So in short, the new system bases its percentages off of final products, instead of base numbers of powers that you barely ever see due to how many bonuses you build up over time. Theoretically, this means the system benefits people who already have very high damage buffs to begin with (DPS) and comes at the detriment of those with less (Tanks, Healers), but the stacked benefits that all characters use mean that it's likely that just everyone came out more powerful, and definitely given a much better gauge of character power.
Also that was a bump. I probably should just lock this stuff since this is like actually one of the few suggestion threads that actually got its goal carried out in a sense! I guess I like explaining power mechanics too much.