So with steel crusade on PTS, where we see friendly NPCs turn hostile, (and for a short while a glitch where hostiles turned friendly) I was wondering if this might mean there actually is a possibility of getting faction conversion mind control powers added to telepathy and perhaps sorcery.
Allowing players to take control of a limited amount of NPC mobs (henchman to enforcer, number probably dependent on power rank) probably wouldn't be too unbalancing if implemented right, and would add that classic feel to telepathy/mind controller toons.
Obviously this would only allow players to take control of NPC mobs, NOT other players, perhaps it could place a large damage debuff on players in pvp instead.
Supervillain and up would not be affected by this power, and using this power on mission objective mobs would flag them as defeated as long as they remain under player control.
(length of the control effect would likely scale with hold duration, so manipulator, high PRE or INT would be helpful)
I still don't know if this is at all plausible, but it's something I feel would really make telepathy (and sorcery even) builds a lot more interesting to play.
So with steel crusade on PTS, where we see friendly NPCs turn hostile, (and for a short while a glitch where hostiles turned friendly) I was wondering if this might mean there actually is a possibility of getting faction conversion mind control powers added to telepathy and perhaps sorcery.
Allowing players to take control of a limited amount of NPC mobs (henchman to enforcer, number probably dependent on power rank) probably wouldn't be too unbalancing if implemented right, and would add that classic feel to telepathy/mind controller toons.
Obviously this would only allow players to take control of NPC mobs, NOT other players, perhaps it could place a large damage debuff on players in pvp instead.
Supervillain and up would not be affected by this power, and using this power on mission objective mobs would flag them as defeated as long as they remain under player control.
I still don't know if this is at all plausible, but it's something I feel would really make telepathy (and sorcery even) builds a lot more interesting to play.
This is what telepathy should have been from the get go.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
actually there is. Cap the number of enemies you can control at once, possibly add a time limit to the control, have it not work on SVs and bosses or players.
Quite simple.
Right, what was I thinking. You're controlling CO npcs... it's guaranteed to be gimp as **** no matter what you do.
So basically a better/advanced version of the Confuse effect, which makes enemies start attacking other enemies but has never really lasted long enough or been useful enough for anyone to use longterm except for some sideeffect of the respective power?
I could dig that. Befuddling others to do your bidding is so good for so many concepts, from mental powered alien from worlds beyond that which can be known all the way to seductive sorceress from a time forgotten by mortal man's ken.
/signed
This has been brought up before and discussed so many times.
The main issue with this idea is that there are many missions in CO which require you to clear out/kill mobs to complete the mission.
Allowing players to assume direct control of an NPC in Alerts, Open World and Instanced missions can screw with progression, assuming there is a set number of minions to take out to complete a mission objective.
It is also an issue if and when we get large scale events where Mob adds are present.
If Player X is able to control a maximum of eight targets at anyone time using Mind Control/A Faction Conversion Spell etc then multiply that by a potential 5 for Alerts, 10 for Instanced missions and even more for Open World Events where adds are present like the Mega Destroid Event both normal one in Downtown and the level 60 Cosmics (coming up soon).
It can quickly get out of hand especially when there are different and effective ways to heal, protect and shield allies, which for all intents and purposes controlled mobs will be classed as.
So aside from messing up a sizeable number of missions or open world events with faction conversion...what else could be an issue?
Well this could easily become a power that is a go to for PvE with pet builds. Run in with all your pets and device pets PLUS an army of eight minions from a mission/instance/open world. All with your various buffs, heals and protective powers to keep them alive.
Also it may interact weirdly with the Pet system, making your pets attack converted minions or simply stop them from attacking altogether because every henchmen to Enforcer is a potential ally.
As it's been stated multiple times, the solution to those wanting some sort of faction conversion is to either:
- Farm and use the "Faction Conversion" Devices such as : Call Up a Dogz Gang or A Gang of Black Aces etc. (Not real faction conversion but allows you to run around with a summoned group of minions)
- Ask for Confuse Mechanics to be fixed.
Confuse Mechanics should confuse the enemy so that they fight their allies for the duration and nothing else. It should placate your presence to them until the confuse is over. If they defeat their targets they should run around looking for new targets until the confuse wears off.
As it stands now, Confused targets and the Confuse Mechanic allow confused targets to still attack you (around two out of a group of 5+ can attack you still despite being confused.) Also the Confuse powers in CO need to have some form of AoE advantage (as has been suggested ages ago if anyone bothers to trawl through the Suggestions Forums about Crowd Control etc).
So the long and short of it is...there would have to be many things taken into consideration to make sure this does not break things or at least a viable work around which do not mess up instances and missions.
But yes, whilst this is a nice idea, with the current access we have to buffs and healing and protection...it'd be stupidly broken. I say that as someone who truly loves Crowd Control and telepathy and the idea of Mind Control. It just isn't worth it in CO anyway. Most mobs die within the space of 5 seconds when facing you. So there'd be little point to controlling them. If they didn't benefit from the buffs we have in place they'd be cannon fodder and people would not use the power. If they did fully benefit (or even partially) there could be problems.
A number of good points have been made, none of which I can't see resolvable.
I of course don't expect such a power to come out in the near future given how complicated it would be to make work.
For now, I'm sure a lot of us would be very happy if they made Mind lock an aoe like alien crystal, and made it actually good again, so it's not a useless AoE.
Maybe in the future if game mechanics and the entire missions system was updated/changed in some aspects.
But if that was only to be done for one new mechanic which is linked to one power...that will not fly with anyone.
It would be a waste of time and resources to implement faction conversion since it would take so much work to do.
Also they'd need to review what buffs converted NPCs get. Because if you shield everything with a 6k bubble...and then your conversion runs out or times out etc you'll be faced with (for the sake of argument) eight Enforcers with 6k Shields looking at you.
Also with such a mechanic there would be the resistances that come along with it, also in PvP if it were used, would it be fair to recruit another players pets? Device or actual power? Don't think so.
Right now in CO a faction conversion power, much like adding any more Crowd Control to the game would just be adding to the hot mess which is CC in Champions Online.
What they need to do revise Crowd Control in Champions Online. First order of business is to balance out the godawful Stunlock building that players are able to accomplish. Stuns, as they were originally designed should never exceed 3 seconds. Since the whole "Z-mashing" doesn't affect them perk was because they were so short. So that's an oversight which needs to be corrected right off the bat, then look at the rest of the system.
As I've said before, Confuses need to get off the +2 System and revert it back but restrict it from affecting established NPCs like Drifter. Remove the cool down OR the charge bar from the power. Redefine it to only attack enemies and then they can add in a 2 point advantage to make it an AoE affect.
Due to the way Crowd Control is in CO and the action/fast paced way CO is played...faction conversion is unlikely to be implemented. The closest we will get is a Confuse power.
Then again you could go down the placate spam route and waltz through that concept that way.
Faction Conversion would be a form of Crowd Control. Since you are controlling a crowd of people, whether this is by forcing them to sleep, paralyzing them, stunning them or what ever.
Adding more Crowd Control to the hot mess which is Crowd Control in CO is not a good solution.
With mechanic changes, I'd like to think it'd be done in steps.
The reason why Stuns should be the first to go is that, if they decided to bring back Hold HP (highly unlikely but who knows) if they allowed Manipulator to increase Hold HP and didn't tackle stuns, there would be a stupid increase in the amount of power stuns have in addition to their current power levels in terms of duration and prevalence. (Its unlikely they'd do a change like this in one go which is why I suggest this.)
Back when I suggested Hold HP to be increasable via Manipulator, I did state that stuns would need to be taken care of FIRST. Stuns are classed as holds. They were just never meant to be long duration like they are now. Which is why they have various exceptions when compared to conventional CC methods.
This is to avoid the aforementioned problem. So that they can strip away other issues like how strong stuns are and get a decent enough foundation to build on properly.
Right now, Hold HP is static so for all intents and purposes it doesn't actually exist. which is why Sentinel Brooches and Crowd Control increases don't work in the way people think they do. (Not going to explain that again, already peppered these forums with explanations of how that works before).
If someone relies on stun based CC solely to provide Crowd Control, that's perpetuating the problem. Because stuns are "quick and dirty" that's why they are used so much.
Then again, there isn't exactly a massive uproar or calling for Stuns and Manipulator to be looked at. Likely because stuns are quick, this game's action is fast paced so there really isn't time for "conventional CC".
There's many things to be taken into consideration when touching Crowd Control powers, because unlike other powers which either cause you to damage your targets or heal yourself, Crowd Control in larger groups doesn't work well unless they are co-ordinated (Had the pleasure of running something like this once, it was glorious.) OR using stunlocks and has a variety of possible outcomes, whereas with damage it's Dead or Alive. Healing is Healed or Not Healed.
In an ideal world, every playstyle would be feasible in teams and working the way they were intended. But that's easier said than done, a lot easier.
It's part of the reason why I've stopped pushing so hard for Crowd Control as of late, it'll get there in time.
Eventually some crowd control abilities will be added and there'll be an issue with making it less "OP" and then people will once again start to realise the mechanic is a hot mess, not the singular power.
I don't see crowd control as a hot mess however, and I don't see it as needing a coordinated team of crowd controllers to effectively lock down mob groups dangerous to teammates.
Outside of stunlock "crowd control", CC is generally a hot mess in a team environment where DPS is moderate to high.
As long as someone runs into and alert, stunlocks large groups of enemies that helps. If someone alpha strikes a bunch of enemies and they all die, that also helps.
If you compare how accessible Stuns are in comparison to other CC, you'll understand that they were designed for short duration CC. Technically since it's not working as intended...well...
(The situation with CCing I spoke about was me + 4 other people who knew how to CC around other CCers. Not necessary for teams but it can be a good experience)
I'm not talking about players who min max to get the best out of Crowd Control. In comparison to other play styles Crowd Control is not consistent nor does it translate well to high end content.
If it is the case that more content in the future will be focused on more challenging stuff OR enemies (like Shamballah Vampires) who for some reason are highly resistant to CC, it will show a clear divide in what you should -need- to be to participate.
Note, I am not saying that you should be able to CC the hell out of bosses as some have the custom to suggest. But they should have an impact aside from secondary debuffs.
CoH managed it (IIRC) but it would require a number of changes to work here (like severely reducing the amount of powers which use CC)
I view it as a system hurt a great deal by a smaller number of issues which plague it.
That's a nice way to look at it. I think that depends on your opinions. A System that has been impacted by a number of smaller things would be, IMO, Damage.
But the fact of the matter is that CC was changed and not exactly for the better, parts of it were nerfed to the point they cannot even work reliably anymore. It wasn't particularly looked into to make sure the issue with Stuns did not hit LIVE and also there are powers which still don't work with Manipulator. The number of issues like Mob AI only serve to reinforce the issue.
I've been in many situations where I've literally saved teammates by holding mobs.
however, the current lack of advanced combat mechanics with many enemy groups make this almost never the case in a good team.
Anyone who uses Crowd Control via Stuns or Paralyzes or even Sleeps can save team mates, just like anyone who heals/shields or kills enemies before they can kill their allies. Or they can save themselves via healing and blocking or simply moving out of LoS...
The CC System is dependent on the actual power of the holds and the incoming damage and resistances a target may or may not have.
Once Mob AI is looked at (if it is) I'd be interested to see if this prompts them to look at this mechanic.
I agree with pretty much everything except that. There's a difference between creating different levels of CC and reducing variety in CC altogether.
The only thing which can change how this mechanic interacts is:
- Reducing it to a small number of powers which can affect high level mobs for a certain period of time and having enemies (Cosmics) immune to all CC effects.
- Revamp Mob AI to allow for periods of time where CC can be used in higher level instances and bosses.
Or you could keep it them same as it is now and continue on as a glorified debuffer when it comes to non controllable bosses.
Why would someone who is enthusiastic about crowd control want to reduce the options available to do so, when as said person has mentioned before, there are different "levels" of holds?
...Seriously?
Okay then.
The levels of holds I spoke about are called categories of hold. They would still exist, just only a smaller pool of powers would have access to them. This would be necessary IF CC and Mob AI was altered to allow CC to have a significant impact on higher level bosses.
Personally, I think that since conventional CC requires much investment and sacrifice it should be rewarding. As opposed to the current quick fix to CC that is Stunlocking.
If the only way to make CC a viable option for rewarding team gameplay (outside of soloing or stunlocking or running ahead of teams or doing my own thing) is to reduce it's sources...then shouldn't this option be explored?
Why on earth should there be a situation where CC is fixed to work or affect high level instances and have everyone and their mother throwing CC around, nullifying boss fights or cancelling out dedicated users cc powers or something of that nature? The answer is, it isn't a necessary situation at all.
It really is all a discussion, I'm not suddenly expecting CC changes to appear on the PTS this year or even next year or for there to be a sudden surge in Crowd Control users calling for a review.
I'm sure in a few months you or someone else will come up with some way to beat this topic for conversation into the ground...again.
As for me, until there is a reason to believe that Crowd Control is going to be reviewed/looked into or what ever, there really isn't much more to disclose regarding CC except for linking what I've said before if an idea comes along which has flaws in it OR is a rehash of another idea stated sometime ago.
I don't really see a balance issue with a Confuse effect on a henchman turning it into a temporary pet, possibly even changing its allegiance so you don't accidentally blow it up in team content. It probably can't work on higher ranked opponents without causing balance issues, though maybe having a villain be vulnerable would be tolerable. Another possibility would be on-defeat powers -- you defeat the target by ego damage, and it respawns as a unit under your control, for some limited duration (this would also be interesting for zombies and the like).
A lot of the problem with control powers in CO is the unwillingness of the devs to look at control powers that only work on NPCs; Confuse vs PCs has a history of being very broken.
Well I don't believe its necessary to reduce the number of powers which apply CC in order to revamp hold categories to affect higher level enemies.Crowd control logically can and should come from a variety of sources, and I simply disagree with the approach you favor that is all.
You may not, I am not a fan of reducing the sources myself but if it is what needs to be done then it should be looked into at least.
I am a fan of making stuns fit their original purpose however.
I believe if the system is ever looked at anyway, there will be opportunity to explore less restricting methods of making crowd control work, and thereby leave more CC concepts viable.
Maybe, or there might be a restriction/watering down of CC abilities.
I don't really see a balance issue with a Confuse effect on a henchman turning it into a temporary pet, possibly even changing its allegiance so you don't accidentally blow it up in team content. It probably can't work on higher ranked opponents without causing balance issues, though maybe having a villain be vulnerable would be tolerable. Another possibility would be on-defeat powers -- you defeat the target by ego damage, and it respawns as a unit under your control, for some limited duration (this would also be interesting for zombies and the like).
A lot of the problem with control powers in CO is the unwillingness of the devs to look at control powers that only work on NPCs; Confuse vs PCs has a history of being very broken.
If you look back a few posts, I did say that if it were to work on certain foes then it'd be an undesirable function as they'd become cannon fodder. So it would likely have to be a large amount of people to confuse accurately.
If they respawned under your control...that would be interesting but it would probably be something akin to the Ressurection Serum Advantage but with a faction conversion power.
Unwillingness and Lack of time/resources are two different things but yes, both do factor into many issues in CO today.
Confuses at first worked pretty well, until Tailors went haywire and started killing players...but yeah. All that was needed in that instance was to stop NPC allies from being affected by confuse...but instead they beat it into the ground.
Isn't the point of mind control 'create cannon fodder'?
Depends on what your thoughts on that sort of power is. Due to how quickly you can summon and resummons pets, I'd say that's what pets are for. Enhanced Cannon Fodder.
Mind Control could also mean having an almost pet army of mind controlled minions to do your dirty work. Or a strong minion to have around you at all times, not just cannon fodder.
In fact if you really want the closest thing CO has to Mind Control/Faction Conversion...outside of Confuse mechanics...try this:
Take Resurrection Serum, get Rank 2 and Reanimator Advantage.
It allows for a maximum of three resurrected foes with you at a time. Each lasting for a maximum of one minute. (They come back as zombies granted but that literally is the closest we have)
Be sure to stat PRE.
Note: Don't get me wrong, If I thought there was a legit opportunity to have these powers in CO, I'd be all over it. Its just that I've seen how badly transitioned some ideas can be or the issues they can cause.
Well I cant say I have played alot of CC primary builds in various games, but two that spring to mind are ofcourse good ol gone but never forgotten CoH, and DDO
In CoH I only ever played one primary CC AT and that was a dom shortly after CoV came out. I only played it into the 30s, and my experience was that in ways a good strong aoe sleep was alot like having a classic jedi mind trick stealth approach. Id freuqently ghost entire missions sleeping my way past mobs to get to the final room. And abilities like Confusion where a must for large groups as it was never any funner for such a concept then floating silently above the mobs watching them tear each other apart while tossing down a little aoe to help speed things up.
I never really got into the master mind and their perma minions, but I dabbled abit, and had a friend who played a fairly well developed one, and while it seems ok I liked the turn enemies on each other approach far more.
My closest thing to a devoted CC was actually my blaster Bentley Berkeley of Virtue. He combined regular knock down juggling of mobs with psi tornado, with disorient effects from psi scream, and last but not least the oft hated upon for being useless but wasnt really World Of Confusion.
For most it was a throw away power not worth even a thought, few blasters with the mental manipulation 2ndary bothered to take it, and would complain about how gimp they where and how blasters needed major buffs.
Yet for me WoC was invaluable when added into an arsenal of soft CC on a high DPS AT like the blaster. Id 5 slot it with the purple lvl 50 IO set, including the confuse proc special, and although it wouldnt turn a foe for long, enough for maybe one attack, between the aura and the proc it was virtually impossible for anything short of a boss or above to stand in melee range with Ol Berk and not spend half their time throwing attacks at their own side.
In fact I loved WoC so much I kept it on even in RP moods and considered it a constant effect that only the strongest of wills could resist and not fall into a mindset of friendship and cooperation.
My other and probably best experience with CC effects comes from DDO, where being an enchant specialized wizard can make for some very fun times.
I recall a run of some lower level content there, called the tangle root run by players. a series of 7 missions which take you back over and over into the same dungeon going deeper each time.
During a run on a drow fighter wizard of mine, our team got steadily smaller as people had to go for various RL reasons. we where down to 3 men with no real healing powers, we had a rogue mainly there for trapping and flanking the fighters targets, the fighter, and myself a strange blend of melee dps, ranged dps, and alot of utility with a splash of rogue mixxed in for trap skills and evasion to avoid dmg abit better.
Things seemed very bleak for our run, when I being a good little old fashioned PnP wizard player, knew their best strength was in their spell book and ability to adjust what spells they wanted on the fly with a quick rest.
I swapped out a few DPS spells that where redundant for charm person and suggestion.
I began to charm as much as we came across, something rarely seen in DDO because most groups do tear apart mobs so fast keeping them preserved as cannon fodder is simply never done as an active practice. Even with the ability there to dismiss control of a mob if needed so the party can kill it for an objective etc.
now i enjoyed using it mainly when solo so I had some hand on how to do it right, and even had spent a feat on augment summoning giving very real buffing to the charmed minions as in across the board stat upgrades, chances to negate crit dmg, stronger saves etc.
So slowly the 3 of us made our way deeper into the dungeon, and finally we reached the final room with the big bad boss. we had exhausted our healing supplies, used up all the rest points in the dungeon, and things seemed like we may have to restart the thing after going back to town to resupply.
We chose our fall back point, our fighter when in on point to draw a few mobs back, and with my ever dwindling spell points charmed a few and we managed this tactic carefully until the boss and a few stronger minions where all that remianed.
We went in to finish them off, and things got bad fast. I had only the most minimal mana left, cast a haste on us all, and had literally enough mana left for a low level spell, saved for an emergency false life if anyone went down to try and get them up fast.
However things like I said went bad fast, too fast to get off that false life when the dwarf fighter got mauled in seconds, and the thief quick on his feat grabbed the soulstone and ran for the rez shrine.
I tried to draw them off but the brave rogues efforts to get the soul stone of our dwarven ally had caught him with aggro my meager magic missle wand could not pull off. So I drew my most deadly of blades, knowing it may well kill me, and charged into the shrine room after the following foes, just as the rogue was cut down by the boss and one of his 2 minions, the other came at me with a leaping blow I could see in my mind killing me, so I let fly my last charm person at the full lifed minion next to the boss, and fell beneath the sword of my attacker.
Now this would of been a certain party wipe, a boss in the rez shrine room, except amazing things unfolded before the eyes of our group.
The moment the charm landed, my newly turned ally followed my killers example and leapt attacked my killer from behind, laying him low in a single deadly rear attack.
Fresh still and ready for more, he turned on the boss, who had fortunately suffered some damage from the fighter and rogue in the initial charge. It was a hot half a minute as the two tore at each other , hobgoblin chief and his former body guard.
However the power of the augment summon feat proved a wise investment, and in the low lvl content the buffs it gave proved enough to let the mere minion slaughter his commander with no real effort, and once it was over we all rezzed, quickly surrounded the charmed foe, and went intoi blender mode so that the moment the charm dropped he was overhwlmed by a 3 way gang bang.
Now I know that doesnt really address any specific point of the topic, but it does touch upon it with several variant approaches used in other MMO.
Now personally I like things like confusion and charm, cannon fodder makers of my enemies likely more then any other kind. Sleeps maybe my next favorite as I like how it enhances solo play and loses alot of effect in a group if no one is working as a group.
In CO I really dont know if there could ever be a point to developing CC, as in co pve any build worth its cape is going to lay waste to all in its path. and ATs well who cares about ATs in a game built upon the foundation of free form freedom?
All I know is this, if a wizard or mind walker cant control the bodies of their foes, they are not really that powerful.
I mean I dont play CO to be the least powerful psion, and if you cant dominate some weak willed mortals whats the point of well even trying to play as such a character
I believe the issue behind this, aside from balance, might be technical in nature. The closest we get to something like this is the Resurrection Serum with Reanimator - You revive enemies to fight for you, except they always turn into big red male zombies, regardless of what their model was. Why not have the character come back as a glowy, bleeding version of themselves that attacks like a zombie instead? Perhaps it's a combination of the power being around for several years now, as well as the aforementioned tech limitations. All things considered, They're more a very strange pet gimmick instead of a legitimate 'turn this enemy into an ally' ability. Most of the faction-swapping effects also are very scripted, though they've been around for a while (other instances include: Macy in Resistance "I guess I'm not very hungry!", Bluejay in that one sewer mission that existed way before GRAB the heavy wallets, and that one VIPER jerk that you have the choice to team up with or kill instantly in that one nemesis mission: He's special because if you agree to help him, he starts out hostile, then becomes friendly, and after you finish the mission, becomes hostile again.)
There do exist some other balance issues: Consider that Villains have roughly the same amount of health as you do, and Master Villains have way more. The game's natural 'balance' between players and enemies is that the enemies have more health in general, but hit much more weakly than you do. Being able to instantly convert enemies to your side bypasses high enemy health, and further raises your damage. I could see it happening with some other tight restrictions (enemy must be below 50% health, while controlled target takes 25% more damage, etc) but with the possible catastrophic technical issues that could arise from this, I don't see it happening.
There do exist some other balance issues: Consider that Villains have roughly the same amount of health as you do
No reason to have control work fully on anything above a Henchman. Have it as 'henchmen controlled, villains confused, master villains placated' or something of the sort.
No reason to have control work fully on anything above a Henchman. Have it as 'henchmen controlled, villains confused, master villains placated' or something of the sort.
Whilst further invalidating Confuses and Placates?
I think aside from the balance issues I highlighted and the possible technical side to it bluhman pointed out, think of other players.
If someone has buffed themselves to use a charge attack on a group of enemies as an alpha strike and then suddenly you waltz in and steal the group...and this happens over and over again. You're either going to solo things or get mad or both. (Whilst you could go and get a PQ for alerts, the nature of them is to be PUG'd generally, so it would be a little unreasonable to do expect people to do this.)
On the other hand, people with epidemic or other hard hitting/fast ticking powers could wipe out your controlling population before you get round to converting them, since they are so easy to dispose of.
Whilst further invalidating Confuses and Placates?
There are all of two confuse powers and one placate power, and all three are pretty well useless. Turn the confuse powers into mind control powers, turn the placate into an AoE or some sort of thing.
If someone has buffed themselves to use a charge attack on a group of enemies as an alpha strike and then suddenly you waltz in and steal the group...and this happens over and over again.
How is this any worse than the issues with, say, paralyze powers?
I've met people who think CC still needs MORE nerfing, you one of em? :rolleyes:
My proposal is a buff, given that the powers I'm talking about are currently essentially useless. If you want, have it "behaves the way it does currently on V and above; dominates henchmen".
There are all of two confuse powers and one placate power, and all three are pretty well useless. Turn the confuse powers into mind control powers, turn the placate into an AoE or some sort of thing.
They are still mechanics in Champions Online, rendering them useless isn't what I'm after personally.
Confuses can be fun if you solo and pair Mind Lock with Alien Crystal and Urthona's Charm.
Placates aren't -that- useless vs Henchmen to Enforcer. Also the one placate in game (Ego Placate) can be very useful if used correctly.
Both also apply a -10% debuff to damage.
However, they need to be better.
A simple no hassle amendment would be, as I've said over and over;
- Take them off the +2 System. Revert them back to the old system, stop NPC allies from being affected and make sure that the confuse is definite. Either Confused to attack their allies OR not confused at all because of their rank resistance. Also kill the effect damage has on confused targets. We already don't gain XP (or shouldn't) for confused targets killing themselves.
Confuse powers are the ones which need to be AoE. Ego placate can be spammed, which is fine.
AoE Placates already exist in a sense. (Think threat wipes.)
With that change you could get confuses to simulate mind control for a duration. This would affect Henchmen to Enforcer like it does now, only it would be reliable and no drastic changes would need to happen.
Comments
There's no way to "do that right" without making it op or completely gimp.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This is what telepathy should have been from the get go.
@Chimerafreek
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Right, what was I thinking. You're controlling CO npcs... it's guaranteed to be gimp as **** no matter what you do.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Wait, is the OP implying LITERAL player type/pet Control or just Mass Ego Placate type control?
@Chimerafreek
the phrase "take control of" was used. I would assume the former.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I could dig that. Befuddling others to do your bidding is so good for so many concepts, from mental powered alien from worlds beyond that which can be known all the way to seductive sorceress from a time forgotten by mortal man's ken.
/signed
The main issue with this idea is that there are many missions in CO which require you to clear out/kill mobs to complete the mission.
Allowing players to assume direct control of an NPC in Alerts, Open World and Instanced missions can screw with progression, assuming there is a set number of minions to take out to complete a mission objective.
It is also an issue if and when we get large scale events where Mob adds are present.
If Player X is able to control a maximum of eight targets at anyone time using Mind Control/A Faction Conversion Spell etc then multiply that by a potential 5 for Alerts, 10 for Instanced missions and even more for Open World Events where adds are present like the Mega Destroid Event both normal one in Downtown and the level 60 Cosmics (coming up soon).
It can quickly get out of hand especially when there are different and effective ways to heal, protect and shield allies, which for all intents and purposes controlled mobs will be classed as.
So aside from messing up a sizeable number of missions or open world events with faction conversion...what else could be an issue?
Well this could easily become a power that is a go to for PvE with pet builds. Run in with all your pets and device pets PLUS an army of eight minions from a mission/instance/open world. All with your various buffs, heals and protective powers to keep them alive.
Also it may interact weirdly with the Pet system, making your pets attack converted minions or simply stop them from attacking altogether because every henchmen to Enforcer is a potential ally.
As it's been stated multiple times, the solution to those wanting some sort of faction conversion is to either:
- Farm and use the "Faction Conversion" Devices such as : Call Up a Dogz Gang or A Gang of Black Aces etc. (Not real faction conversion but allows you to run around with a summoned group of minions)
- Ask for Confuse Mechanics to be fixed.
Confuse Mechanics should confuse the enemy so that they fight their allies for the duration and nothing else. It should placate your presence to them until the confuse is over. If they defeat their targets they should run around looking for new targets until the confuse wears off.
As it stands now, Confused targets and the Confuse Mechanic allow confused targets to still attack you (around two out of a group of 5+ can attack you still despite being confused.) Also the Confuse powers in CO need to have some form of AoE advantage (as has been suggested ages ago if anyone bothers to trawl through the Suggestions Forums about Crowd Control etc).
So the long and short of it is...there would have to be many things taken into consideration to make sure this does not break things or at least a viable work around which do not mess up instances and missions.
But yes, whilst this is a nice idea, with the current access we have to buffs and healing and protection...it'd be stupidly broken. I say that as someone who truly loves Crowd Control and telepathy and the idea of Mind Control. It just isn't worth it in CO anyway. Most mobs die within the space of 5 seconds when facing you. So there'd be little point to controlling them. If they didn't benefit from the buffs we have in place they'd be cannon fodder and people would not use the power. If they did fully benefit (or even partially) there could be problems.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Maybe in the future if game mechanics and the entire missions system was updated/changed in some aspects.
But if that was only to be done for one new mechanic which is linked to one power...that will not fly with anyone.
It would be a waste of time and resources to implement faction conversion since it would take so much work to do.
Also they'd need to review what buffs converted NPCs get. Because if you shield everything with a 6k bubble...and then your conversion runs out or times out etc you'll be faced with (for the sake of argument) eight Enforcers with 6k Shields looking at you.
Also with such a mechanic there would be the resistances that come along with it, also in PvP if it were used, would it be fair to recruit another players pets? Device or actual power? Don't think so.
Right now in CO a faction conversion power, much like adding any more Crowd Control to the game would just be adding to the hot mess which is CC in Champions Online.
What they need to do revise Crowd Control in Champions Online. First order of business is to balance out the godawful Stunlock building that players are able to accomplish. Stuns, as they were originally designed should never exceed 3 seconds. Since the whole "Z-mashing" doesn't affect them perk was because they were so short. So that's an oversight which needs to be corrected right off the bat, then look at the rest of the system.
As I've said before, Confuses need to get off the +2 System and revert it back but restrict it from affecting established NPCs like Drifter. Remove the cool down OR the charge bar from the power. Redefine it to only attack enemies and then they can add in a 2 point advantage to make it an AoE affect.
Due to the way Crowd Control is in CO and the action/fast paced way CO is played...faction conversion is unlikely to be implemented. The closest we will get is a Confuse power.
Then again you could go down the placate spam route and waltz through that concept that way.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Adding more Crowd Control to the hot mess which is Crowd Control in CO is not a good solution.
With mechanic changes, I'd like to think it'd be done in steps.
The reason why Stuns should be the first to go is that, if they decided to bring back Hold HP (highly unlikely but who knows) if they allowed Manipulator to increase Hold HP and didn't tackle stuns, there would be a stupid increase in the amount of power stuns have in addition to their current power levels in terms of duration and prevalence. (Its unlikely they'd do a change like this in one go which is why I suggest this.)
Back when I suggested Hold HP to be increasable via Manipulator, I did state that stuns would need to be taken care of FIRST. Stuns are classed as holds. They were just never meant to be long duration like they are now. Which is why they have various exceptions when compared to conventional CC methods.
This is to avoid the aforementioned problem. So that they can strip away other issues like how strong stuns are and get a decent enough foundation to build on properly.
Right now, Hold HP is static so for all intents and purposes it doesn't actually exist. which is why Sentinel Brooches and Crowd Control increases don't work in the way people think they do. (Not going to explain that again, already peppered these forums with explanations of how that works before).
If someone relies on stun based CC solely to provide Crowd Control, that's perpetuating the problem. Because stuns are "quick and dirty" that's why they are used so much.
Then again, there isn't exactly a massive uproar or calling for Stuns and Manipulator to be looked at. Likely because stuns are quick, this game's action is fast paced so there really isn't time for "conventional CC".
There's many things to be taken into consideration when touching Crowd Control powers, because unlike other powers which either cause you to damage your targets or heal yourself, Crowd Control in larger groups doesn't work well unless they are co-ordinated (Had the pleasure of running something like this once, it was glorious.) OR using stunlocks and has a variety of possible outcomes, whereas with damage it's Dead or Alive. Healing is Healed or Not Healed.
In an ideal world, every playstyle would be feasible in teams and working the way they were intended. But that's easier said than done, a lot easier.
It's part of the reason why I've stopped pushing so hard for Crowd Control as of late, it'll get there in time.
Eventually some crowd control abilities will be added and there'll be an issue with making it less "OP" and then people will once again start to realise the mechanic is a hot mess, not the singular power.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Outside of stunlock "crowd control", CC is generally a hot mess in a team environment where DPS is moderate to high.
As long as someone runs into and alert, stunlocks large groups of enemies that helps. If someone alpha strikes a bunch of enemies and they all die, that also helps.
If you compare how accessible Stuns are in comparison to other CC, you'll understand that they were designed for short duration CC. Technically since it's not working as intended...well...
(The situation with CCing I spoke about was me + 4 other people who knew how to CC around other CCers. Not necessary for teams but it can be a good experience)
I'm not talking about players who min max to get the best out of Crowd Control. In comparison to other play styles Crowd Control is not consistent nor does it translate well to high end content.
If it is the case that more content in the future will be focused on more challenging stuff OR enemies (like Shamballah Vampires) who for some reason are highly resistant to CC, it will show a clear divide in what you should -need- to be to participate.
Note, I am not saying that you should be able to CC the hell out of bosses as some have the custom to suggest. But they should have an impact aside from secondary debuffs.
CoH managed it (IIRC) but it would require a number of changes to work here (like severely reducing the amount of powers which use CC)
That's a nice way to look at it. I think that depends on your opinions. A System that has been impacted by a number of smaller things would be, IMO, Damage.
But the fact of the matter is that CC was changed and not exactly for the better, parts of it were nerfed to the point they cannot even work reliably anymore. It wasn't particularly looked into to make sure the issue with Stuns did not hit LIVE and also there are powers which still don't work with Manipulator. The number of issues like Mob AI only serve to reinforce the issue.
Anyone who uses Crowd Control via Stuns or Paralyzes or even Sleeps can save team mates, just like anyone who heals/shields or kills enemies before they can kill their allies. Or they can save themselves via healing and blocking or simply moving out of LoS...
The CC System is dependent on the actual power of the holds and the incoming damage and resistances a target may or may not have.
Once Mob AI is looked at (if it is) I'd be interested to see if this prompts them to look at this mechanic.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
The only thing which can change how this mechanic interacts is:
- Reducing it to a small number of powers which can affect high level mobs for a certain period of time and having enemies (Cosmics) immune to all CC effects.
- Revamp Mob AI to allow for periods of time where CC can be used in higher level instances and bosses.
Or you could keep it them same as it is now and continue on as a glorified debuffer when it comes to non controllable bosses.
...Seriously?
Okay then.
The levels of holds I spoke about are called categories of hold. They would still exist, just only a smaller pool of powers would have access to them. This would be necessary IF CC and Mob AI was altered to allow CC to have a significant impact on higher level bosses.
Personally, I think that since conventional CC requires much investment and sacrifice it should be rewarding. As opposed to the current quick fix to CC that is Stunlocking.
If the only way to make CC a viable option for rewarding team gameplay (outside of soloing or stunlocking or running ahead of teams or doing my own thing) is to reduce it's sources...then shouldn't this option be explored?
Why on earth should there be a situation where CC is fixed to work or affect high level instances and have everyone and their mother throwing CC around, nullifying boss fights or cancelling out dedicated users cc powers or something of that nature? The answer is, it isn't a necessary situation at all.
It really is all a discussion, I'm not suddenly expecting CC changes to appear on the PTS this year or even next year or for there to be a sudden surge in Crowd Control users calling for a review.
I'm sure in a few months you or someone else will come up with some way to beat this topic for conversation into the ground...again.
As for me, until there is a reason to believe that Crowd Control is going to be reviewed/looked into or what ever, there really isn't much more to disclose regarding CC except for linking what I've said before if an idea comes along which has flaws in it OR is a rehash of another idea stated sometime ago.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
A lot of the problem with control powers in CO is the unwillingness of the devs to look at control powers that only work on NPCs; Confuse vs PCs has a history of being very broken.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
You may not, I am not a fan of reducing the sources myself but if it is what needs to be done then it should be looked into at least.
I am a fan of making stuns fit their original purpose however.
Maybe, or there might be a restriction/watering down of CC abilities.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
If you look back a few posts, I did say that if it were to work on certain foes then it'd be an undesirable function as they'd become cannon fodder. So it would likely have to be a large amount of people to confuse accurately.
If they respawned under your control...that would be interesting but it would probably be something akin to the Ressurection Serum Advantage but with a faction conversion power.
Unwillingness and Lack of time/resources are two different things but yes, both do factor into many issues in CO today.
Confuses at first worked pretty well, until Tailors went haywire and started killing players...but yeah. All that was needed in that instance was to stop NPC allies from being affected by confuse...but instead they beat it into the ground.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Depends on what your thoughts on that sort of power is. Due to how quickly you can summon and resummons pets, I'd say that's what pets are for. Enhanced Cannon Fodder.
Mind Control could also mean having an almost pet army of mind controlled minions to do your dirty work. Or a strong minion to have around you at all times, not just cannon fodder.
In fact if you really want the closest thing CO has to Mind Control/Faction Conversion...outside of Confuse mechanics...try this:
Take Resurrection Serum, get Rank 2 and Reanimator Advantage.
It allows for a maximum of three resurrected foes with you at a time. Each lasting for a maximum of one minute. (They come back as zombies granted but that literally is the closest we have)
Be sure to stat PRE.
Note: Don't get me wrong, If I thought there was a legit opportunity to have these powers in CO, I'd be all over it. Its just that I've seen how badly transitioned some ideas can be or the issues they can cause.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
In CoH I only ever played one primary CC AT and that was a dom shortly after CoV came out. I only played it into the 30s, and my experience was that in ways a good strong aoe sleep was alot like having a classic jedi mind trick stealth approach. Id freuqently ghost entire missions sleeping my way past mobs to get to the final room. And abilities like Confusion where a must for large groups as it was never any funner for such a concept then floating silently above the mobs watching them tear each other apart while tossing down a little aoe to help speed things up.
I never really got into the master mind and their perma minions, but I dabbled abit, and had a friend who played a fairly well developed one, and while it seems ok I liked the turn enemies on each other approach far more.
My closest thing to a devoted CC was actually my blaster Bentley Berkeley of Virtue. He combined regular knock down juggling of mobs with psi tornado, with disorient effects from psi scream, and last but not least the oft hated upon for being useless but wasnt really World Of Confusion.
For most it was a throw away power not worth even a thought, few blasters with the mental manipulation 2ndary bothered to take it, and would complain about how gimp they where and how blasters needed major buffs.
Yet for me WoC was invaluable when added into an arsenal of soft CC on a high DPS AT like the blaster. Id 5 slot it with the purple lvl 50 IO set, including the confuse proc special, and although it wouldnt turn a foe for long, enough for maybe one attack, between the aura and the proc it was virtually impossible for anything short of a boss or above to stand in melee range with Ol Berk and not spend half their time throwing attacks at their own side.
In fact I loved WoC so much I kept it on even in RP moods and considered it a constant effect that only the strongest of wills could resist and not fall into a mindset of friendship and cooperation.
My other and probably best experience with CC effects comes from DDO, where being an enchant specialized wizard can make for some very fun times.
I recall a run of some lower level content there, called the tangle root run by players. a series of 7 missions which take you back over and over into the same dungeon going deeper each time.
During a run on a drow fighter wizard of mine, our team got steadily smaller as people had to go for various RL reasons. we where down to 3 men with no real healing powers, we had a rogue mainly there for trapping and flanking the fighters targets, the fighter, and myself a strange blend of melee dps, ranged dps, and alot of utility with a splash of rogue mixxed in for trap skills and evasion to avoid dmg abit better.
Things seemed very bleak for our run, when I being a good little old fashioned PnP wizard player, knew their best strength was in their spell book and ability to adjust what spells they wanted on the fly with a quick rest.
I swapped out a few DPS spells that where redundant for charm person and suggestion.
I began to charm as much as we came across, something rarely seen in DDO because most groups do tear apart mobs so fast keeping them preserved as cannon fodder is simply never done as an active practice. Even with the ability there to dismiss control of a mob if needed so the party can kill it for an objective etc.
now i enjoyed using it mainly when solo so I had some hand on how to do it right, and even had spent a feat on augment summoning giving very real buffing to the charmed minions as in across the board stat upgrades, chances to negate crit dmg, stronger saves etc.
So slowly the 3 of us made our way deeper into the dungeon, and finally we reached the final room with the big bad boss. we had exhausted our healing supplies, used up all the rest points in the dungeon, and things seemed like we may have to restart the thing after going back to town to resupply.
We chose our fall back point, our fighter when in on point to draw a few mobs back, and with my ever dwindling spell points charmed a few and we managed this tactic carefully until the boss and a few stronger minions where all that remianed.
We went in to finish them off, and things got bad fast. I had only the most minimal mana left, cast a haste on us all, and had literally enough mana left for a low level spell, saved for an emergency false life if anyone went down to try and get them up fast.
However things like I said went bad fast, too fast to get off that false life when the dwarf fighter got mauled in seconds, and the thief quick on his feat grabbed the soulstone and ran for the rez shrine.
I tried to draw them off but the brave rogues efforts to get the soul stone of our dwarven ally had caught him with aggro my meager magic missle wand could not pull off. So I drew my most deadly of blades, knowing it may well kill me, and charged into the shrine room after the following foes, just as the rogue was cut down by the boss and one of his 2 minions, the other came at me with a leaping blow I could see in my mind killing me, so I let fly my last charm person at the full lifed minion next to the boss, and fell beneath the sword of my attacker.
Now this would of been a certain party wipe, a boss in the rez shrine room, except amazing things unfolded before the eyes of our group.
The moment the charm landed, my newly turned ally followed my killers example and leapt attacked my killer from behind, laying him low in a single deadly rear attack.
Fresh still and ready for more, he turned on the boss, who had fortunately suffered some damage from the fighter and rogue in the initial charge. It was a hot half a minute as the two tore at each other , hobgoblin chief and his former body guard.
However the power of the augment summon feat proved a wise investment, and in the low lvl content the buffs it gave proved enough to let the mere minion slaughter his commander with no real effort, and once it was over we all rezzed, quickly surrounded the charmed foe, and went intoi blender mode so that the moment the charm dropped he was overhwlmed by a 3 way gang bang.
Now I know that doesnt really address any specific point of the topic, but it does touch upon it with several variant approaches used in other MMO.
Now personally I like things like confusion and charm, cannon fodder makers of my enemies likely more then any other kind. Sleeps maybe my next favorite as I like how it enhances solo play and loses alot of effect in a group if no one is working as a group.
In CO I really dont know if there could ever be a point to developing CC, as in co pve any build worth its cape is going to lay waste to all in its path. and ATs well who cares about ATs in a game built upon the foundation of free form freedom?
All I know is this, if a wizard or mind walker cant control the bodies of their foes, they are not really that powerful.
I mean I dont play CO to be the least powerful psion, and if you cant dominate some weak willed mortals whats the point of well even trying to play as such a character
There do exist some other balance issues: Consider that Villains have roughly the same amount of health as you do, and Master Villains have way more. The game's natural 'balance' between players and enemies is that the enemies have more health in general, but hit much more weakly than you do. Being able to instantly convert enemies to your side bypasses high enemy health, and further raises your damage. I could see it happening with some other tight restrictions (enemy must be below 50% health, while controlled target takes 25% more damage, etc) but with the possible catastrophic technical issues that could arise from this, I don't see it happening.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Whilst further invalidating Confuses and Placates?
I think aside from the balance issues I highlighted and the possible technical side to it bluhman pointed out, think of other players.
If someone has buffed themselves to use a charge attack on a group of enemies as an alpha strike and then suddenly you waltz in and steal the group...and this happens over and over again. You're either going to solo things or get mad or both. (Whilst you could go and get a PQ for alerts, the nature of them is to be PUG'd generally, so it would be a little unreasonable to do expect people to do this.)
On the other hand, people with epidemic or other hard hitting/fast ticking powers could wipe out your controlling population before you get round to converting them, since they are so easy to dispose of.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
They are still mechanics in Champions Online, rendering them useless isn't what I'm after personally.
Confuses can be fun if you solo and pair Mind Lock with Alien Crystal and Urthona's Charm.
Placates aren't -that- useless vs Henchmen to Enforcer. Also the one placate in game (Ego Placate) can be very useful if used correctly.
Both also apply a -10% debuff to damage.
However, they need to be better.
A simple no hassle amendment would be, as I've said over and over;
- Take them off the +2 System. Revert them back to the old system, stop NPC allies from being affected and make sure that the confuse is definite. Either Confused to attack their allies OR not confused at all because of their rank resistance. Also kill the effect damage has on confused targets. We already don't gain XP (or shouldn't) for confused targets killing themselves.
Confuse powers are the ones which need to be AoE. Ego placate can be spammed, which is fine.
AoE Placates already exist in a sense. (Think threat wipes.)
With that change you could get confuses to simulate mind control for a duration. This would affect Henchmen to Enforcer like it does now, only it would be reliable and no drastic changes would need to happen.
Well...paralyzing a foe is not the same as faction conversion. In fact you are making killing them easier, which is the whole point.
Stealing away targets is different to locking them down to make it little more than a shooting gallery.
With charged powers in general you want to be focusing on someone with the biggest sack of HP, targeting minor adds is a waste of your time.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________