Because that is what they wanted their character to do well. Sometimes they do it because they want to be "most survivable tank in game" or "strongest healer in game". And that's where it ends; that was the end goal. You can tell because there are cases where them building that way slows down runs, and they are fully aware of this, and yet they continue to build that way because they set a very specific goal.
In other words, those players are going for emergent gameplay goals, kind of like the theme builders here.
You used very general statements where WoW was lumped in as one of "those" mmos. More specific examples would have helped. When you talk about "those" mmos, you're waving your hand at a very broad area.
In other words, I never called out WoW specifically. Okay, we can leave it at that
WoW is much more tightly balanced than those games then. There's a reason that those undergeared runs are considered an accomplishment, and it's because the vast majority of players will not be able to accomplish them; not only that, most players won't even bother attempting them because they know they'll fail.
In Champions Online, the same feat isn't an accomplishment close to that. It isn't an accomplishment at all. Here it's not "hey I ran a thing with gear thats a bit under the required ilvl" it's "I ran without any gear at all and we don't even know what that means because the concept of a required ilvl is fairly nebulous here".
No-gear runs of end-game content in WoW. Find me one of those. Well-geared tanks barely managed to survive same-tiered content when I played; a tank with no gear would drop from the first hit, then the rest of the ungeared raid would be dead a few seconds after that
So the basis of "tight balance" is how much items can contrbute to success. All I can say is that sounds like an unhealthy precedent which seems to have led to the current P2W plague in many games today.
Champions Online is another MMO right? Well, then I would like for you to explain how what is required of each player in the average wow raid is no different from what is required of a player running endgame content in CO. And make sure to cite specific fights and compare them to fights in CO, keeping in mind that the number of mechanics is important, as is the type of mechanics. If you like, you can simply answer "We don't have raids, so there's really no basis for comparison- what we consider difficult end game content is equivalent to what WoW players do in dungeons while leveling up".
Sure. Lets use the fight you cited as an example since, as I said, I only have what you're telling me to go by for WoW:
"Okay tank 1 you tank that guy over there, tank 2 you tank that guy over there, every twenty seconds bring your tanking targets close together so they debuff each other then seperate them again before they blow up."
So for this phase, the only thing the tanks do is walk between point A and point B every 20 seconds while tanking. In other words, dance. Tank mechanics: 1.
Ice mage, you kite that guy around the room, when you get the bomb debuff let the warlock aggro him and kite him the other way then you run away from the group so you don't blow anyone up.
For this phase, the only thing the ice mage and warlock do is kite around until they get a debuff. In other words, dance. In TSW we call this role the Rabbit, kind of like the one that leads Alice around, except 'Alice' is usually something big and ugly rather than a loli. So Rabbit: 1. Tank: 1
Okay when the boss freezes the room everyone remember to run behind the ice columns so he doesn't perma-freeze you
So Tank: 2, Rabbit: 2.
if anyone does get frozen everyone make sure to dps the ice to free them, but right before it bursts everyone but the tanks back off so you don't get hit by the aoe.
I take it this is only required of the DPS. So Tank: 2. Rabbit: 2. DPS: 2.
In the meantime the warlock is gonna spam hellfire while the paladin heals him to aggro the swarms of murlocks that keep running in, just let the warlock and the paladin handle them.
I'll just call them the off-team. So Tank: 2. Rabbit: 2. DPS: 2. Off-team: 2.
All right guys, phase 2 just started, now we're gonna..."
Since you only described phase 1 I'll just find a boss that has two mechanics for the player to handle in phase 1.
How about solo Elite Vikorin at ilvl? Where ilvl is defined as gear that was available at the time of the introduction of Andrith without running Andrith itself or newer Lairs like TT. Andrith is Recommended: 5 players not Required: 5 players so it can be considered solo endgame content.
So...
1. Stand on the stairs, and when you get hit by his AoE stun, duck down the stairs to LOS him.
2. When he charges Shadow Blast, block.
That's two mechanics. And then we go into Phase 2.
my record is changing my Level 7 primary utility at level 34.
I frequently have gear thats about 10 levels below my character. i only change if I start noticing a problem.
So the basis of "tight balance" is how much items can contrbute to success. All I can say is that sounds like an unhealthy precedent which seems to have led to the current P2W plague in many games today.
You asked me to explain the analogy I made, so I explained it. Why are you suddenly trying to debate whether gear gating is good or not? o3o
Sure. Lets use the fight you cited as an example since, as I said, I only have what you're telling me to go by for WoW:
So for this phase, the only thing the tanks do is walk between point A and point B every 20 seconds while tanking. In other words, dance. Tank mechanics: 1.
For this phase, the only thing the ice mage and warlock do is kite around until they get a debuff. In other words, dance. In TSW we call this role the Rabbit, kind of like the one that leads Alice around, except 'Alice' is usually something big and ugly rather than a loli. So Rabbit: 1. Tank: 1
So Tank: 2, Rabbit: 2.
I take it this is only required of the DPS. So Tank: 2. Rabbit: 2. DPS: 2.
I'll just call them the off-team. So Tank: 2. Rabbit: 2. DPS: 2. Off-team: 2.
Since you only described phase 1 I'll just find a boss that has two mechanics for the player to handle in phase 1.
How about solo Elite Vikorin at ilvl?
Coordinating with a group is a part of what is required of the players in those raids in WoW, so a Solo run doesn't do very well to make a comparison because it completely lacks that aspect. There's a reason nearly every boss fight in WoW is preceeded by a whole bunch of talking.
Where ilvl is defined as gear that was available at the time of the introduction of Andrith
We don't live in that time though, we live in now. If you were going to cite a different time to make the argument that the game isn't easy, you should have cited the time right after Beta when they suddenly raised the difficulty. If you're going to use Andrith as an example, you have to use it as it stands currently, because that is the state of the game that we are discussing.
Andrith requires no coordination. 5 players running it together can do so silently without ever talking to one another, even if it's the first time those 5 players have run together. Everyone deals with the same 2 mechanics the entire fight (barely), and the whole thing can be done solo.
That is in no way equivalent to a WoW raid. Don't worry, I knew I was giving you an impossible task: CO doesn't actually have any content that anyone could equate with a wow raid, or really anything more complex than any shovelware MMO provides. Fire and Ice is about as close as we come, and that would barely pass as the first boss fight in the lowest tier raid since it's basically a tank-n-spank that has a few brief "don't stand in the fire" phases.
So then you're admitting you were wrong to say that the end goal is the same for all builds, yes?
I'm saying what you described can only come after the basic success condition is met, so efficiency comes first. If, for example, the boss enrages because the party's DPS was 1% short because the tank refused to get more DPS and there were no real survivability issues, would that not be inefficient and would they not be slowing the run down?
You asked me to explain the analogy I made, so I explained it. Why are you suddenly trying to debate whether gear gating is good or not? o3o
Because the root of the issue is, as quoted, "someone revealing 'We'll be able to do all the end game in the new content wearing the gear we were grinding last year, and using tactics we used to beat the tutorial area'".
So I'm saying, it has a gear gate, but that doesn't have as much to do with difficulty as it does to do with the game's design.
Coordinating with a group is a part of what is required of the players in those raids in WoW, so a Solo run doesn't do very well to make a comparison because it completely lacks that aspect. There's a reason nearly every boss fight in WoW is preceeded by a whole bunch of talking.
Coordinating a group to use the same tactics they used in an average MMO's tutorial, in a specific way. My point wasn't that coordination exists in CO, it's whether the tactics used is the same as the tutorial.
So going back to the heart of the issue, your definition of difficulty would be content that requires a gear gate and coordination? If not, then what is difficulty? We can agree that CO is easy but it is the definition of what would be difficult that we seem to differ on.
Maybe you read some of the things that I typed wrong. You quoted those too and then typed stuff under the quote
But fine, I will accept your stance of "End game is only stuff you have to be max level to do because I say so". u3u
I listed pretty solid requirements as to what I think endgame content is. And I don't know if you've provided any other proof that doesn't fall under the "because I say so" umbrella. But feel free to keep being obtuse about it, I'm done discussing it.
You're gonna make me wanna do another video for the fist with no gear now aren't you. <_< I actually know how to play the fist a bit better too.
As to morigosa I'm not saying the game at lower levels is too easy because frankly I don't believe it is. I'm talking about level 40 end game stuff playing the game on harder modes and stuff like that. I find that until you get all the stupidly power creeped gear and stats (oh and specs, I keep forgetting they weren't in the game and were part of the power creep) the game is just as hard as it was back in 2009. CO is such an odd game in the fact it seems to get easier as you go on opposed to being harder. But that's just power creep for you.
I've always found that a rather odd thing. Normally any game bar the Demon's/Dark Souls series will start out easy and gradually increase in difficulty.
However the Demon's/Dark Souls series has a reason why its harder when you very first start the game (with no prior knowledge, i.e. a complete newbie) is because the games will throw scenarios at you and go "right, remember this, learn from it, you WILL die this time but next time a similar situation crops up, you'll know what to do".
You have no idea what to expect bt the game will give you hints ("if you'd taken the time to observe your surroundings you would have realised there's a pressure plate on the floor and an arrow trap right down that corridor but instead you charged forward without thinking...")
The games teach through failure, you're failure. Eventually you learn that running straight at every enemy you see is only going to get you killed, you begin keeping your shield raised, using the third person view to look around corners and taking in your surroundings.
For example in Dark Souls 1 there's a moment where you spot an enemy down a corridor, who sees you and runs for it. Now naturally you want to give chase but what you don't see are the two enemies either side of the end of the tunnel who will happily stab you in the buttcheeks because you rushed to kill a guy.
That's difficulty done right, that's difficulty that punishes hubris, it isn't unfair, it doesn't suffer fools. It is a difficulty that can be overcome through experience until you can speed run the game, which took you 30-40 hours first time through, in under 4 hours.
This is where the self imposed challenge runs come into play, level 1 runs, dual fist weapon only (you learn to parry incredibly quickly when you can't block anything), whip only etc. All this knowledge you've learned over the hours you've sunk into Dark souls ends in something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13q8TDpRCrA.
This guy is doing it at the lowest level, with the worst possible weapons in the game, with no shield and in a state where he will do more damage (thanks to a ring that boosts damage when you're close to death) but the boss will kill him in one hit. This is a boss that is tough for level appropriate characters. This is emergent gameplay and self imposed challenge at its finest in games.
Meanwhile CO has a strange difficulty curve that comes not from any genuine sense of toughness or lack of personal skill but because you lack a heal at the start or your lack damage abilities at the start. Once you pass a certain threshold, the game becomes so absurdly easy as to be a joke.
my record is changing my Level 7 primary utility at level 34.
I frequently have gear thats about 10 levels below my character. i only change if I start noticing a problem.
I've changed from the level 6 items you are given at the start into level 40 legions on my fist AT...
... But that was when I was farming mega-D's to level.
Meanwhile CO has a strange difficulty curve that comes not from any genuine sense of toughness or lack of personal skill but because you lack a heal at the start or your lack damage abilities at the start. Once you pass a certain threshold, the game becomes so absurdly easy as to be a joke.
Exactly.
Oddly enough because of this regen seems like god mode if you get it at lower levels but at 40 compared to other healing options you can just plonk onto any build it isn't really the same.
Thing is that the NPC's dont' really get harder. The NPC's you'll have to beat up in 40 content are pretty much just as easy as the purple gang members. As you get higher levels NPC's should have had more things they can do to counter your new found power but other than basic stats increasing they can't do anything against a player who has a heal with basic defenses.
Character progression is slightly different in Cryptic's other game Neverwinter where once you hit 60 (max level) it ends up being all about getting gear and progressing your character that way. Every piece of gear you get which makes you more powerful allows you to get more powerful gear. The problem is that every time they add a new update they keep adding another layer. Because of how Cryptic stats work it pretty much is currently at the point of a Wizard being able to get to 50k hp (base is 20k) every stat which has a soft cap up to that soft cap and stack loads of power. (power has no diminishing returns and just increases damage by a flat %)
You see it especially in PVP, it is the cause of all the unbalance issues in the game. Although they did try to help counter it by adding harder NPC's in some areas and they add harder dungeons each time but if you are competent it isn't that hard still if you take off all your gear as long as you can dodge out of the way of things.
Comments
Logical, yeah?
That button is broken on your system.
Ouch.
Yeah I'm not even gonna attempt to read through all that. :>
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
In other words, those players are going for emergent gameplay goals, kind of like the theme builders here.
In other words, I never called out WoW specifically. Okay, we can leave it at that
So the basis of "tight balance" is how much items can contrbute to success. All I can say is that sounds like an unhealthy precedent which seems to have led to the current P2W plague in many games today.
Sure. Lets use the fight you cited as an example since, as I said, I only have what you're telling me to go by for WoW:
So for this phase, the only thing the tanks do is walk between point A and point B every 20 seconds while tanking. In other words, dance. Tank mechanics: 1.
For this phase, the only thing the ice mage and warlock do is kite around until they get a debuff. In other words, dance. In TSW we call this role the Rabbit, kind of like the one that leads Alice around, except 'Alice' is usually something big and ugly rather than a loli. So Rabbit: 1. Tank: 1
So Tank: 2, Rabbit: 2.
I take it this is only required of the DPS. So Tank: 2. Rabbit: 2. DPS: 2.
I'll just call them the off-team. So Tank: 2. Rabbit: 2. DPS: 2. Off-team: 2.
Since you only described phase 1 I'll just find a boss that has two mechanics for the player to handle in phase 1.
How about solo Elite Vikorin at ilvl? Where ilvl is defined as gear that was available at the time of the introduction of Andrith without running Andrith itself or newer Lairs like TT. Andrith is Recommended: 5 players not Required: 5 players so it can be considered solo endgame content.
So...
2. When he charges Shadow Blast, block.
That's two mechanics. And then we go into Phase 2.
Tada! :biggrin:
I frequently have gear thats about 10 levels below my character. i only change if I start noticing a problem.
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So then you're admitting you were wrong to say that the end goal is the same for all builds, yes?
You asked me to explain the analogy I made, so I explained it. Why are you suddenly trying to debate whether gear gating is good or not? o3o
Coordinating with a group is a part of what is required of the players in those raids in WoW, so a Solo run doesn't do very well to make a comparison because it completely lacks that aspect. There's a reason nearly every boss fight in WoW is preceeded by a whole bunch of talking.
We don't live in that time though, we live in now. If you were going to cite a different time to make the argument that the game isn't easy, you should have cited the time right after Beta when they suddenly raised the difficulty. If you're going to use Andrith as an example, you have to use it as it stands currently, because that is the state of the game that we are discussing.
Andrith requires no coordination. 5 players running it together can do so silently without ever talking to one another, even if it's the first time those 5 players have run together. Everyone deals with the same 2 mechanics the entire fight (barely), and the whole thing can be done solo.
That is in no way equivalent to a WoW raid. Don't worry, I knew I was giving you an impossible task: CO doesn't actually have any content that anyone could equate with a wow raid, or really anything more complex than any shovelware MMO provides. Fire and Ice is about as close as we come, and that would barely pass as the first boss fight in the lowest tier raid since it's basically a tank-n-spank that has a few brief "don't stand in the fire" phases.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Maybe you read some of the things that I typed wrong. You quoted those too and then typed stuff under the quote
But fine, I will accept your stance of "End game is only stuff you have to be max level to do because I say so". u3u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'm saying what you described can only come after the basic success condition is met, so efficiency comes first. If, for example, the boss enrages because the party's DPS was 1% short because the tank refused to get more DPS and there were no real survivability issues, would that not be inefficient and would they not be slowing the run down?
Because the root of the issue is, as quoted, "someone revealing 'We'll be able to do all the end game in the new content wearing the gear we were grinding last year, and using tactics we used to beat the tutorial area'".
So I'm saying, it has a gear gate, but that doesn't have as much to do with difficulty as it does to do with the game's design.
Coordinating a group to use the same tactics they used in an average MMO's tutorial, in a specific way. My point wasn't that coordination exists in CO, it's whether the tactics used is the same as the tutorial.
So going back to the heart of the issue, your definition of difficulty would be content that requires a gear gate and coordination? If not, then what is difficulty? We can agree that CO is easy but it is the definition of what would be difficult that we seem to differ on.
I listed pretty solid requirements as to what I think endgame content is. And I don't know if you've provided any other proof that doesn't fall under the "because I say so" umbrella. But feel free to keep being obtuse about it, I'm done discussing it.
I've always found that a rather odd thing. Normally any game bar the Demon's/Dark Souls series will start out easy and gradually increase in difficulty.
However the Demon's/Dark Souls series has a reason why its harder when you very first start the game (with no prior knowledge, i.e. a complete newbie) is because the games will throw scenarios at you and go "right, remember this, learn from it, you WILL die this time but next time a similar situation crops up, you'll know what to do".
You have no idea what to expect bt the game will give you hints ("if you'd taken the time to observe your surroundings you would have realised there's a pressure plate on the floor and an arrow trap right down that corridor but instead you charged forward without thinking...")
The games teach through failure, you're failure. Eventually you learn that running straight at every enemy you see is only going to get you killed, you begin keeping your shield raised, using the third person view to look around corners and taking in your surroundings.
For example in Dark Souls 1 there's a moment where you spot an enemy down a corridor, who sees you and runs for it. Now naturally you want to give chase but what you don't see are the two enemies either side of the end of the tunnel who will happily stab you in the buttcheeks because you rushed to kill a guy.
That's difficulty done right, that's difficulty that punishes hubris, it isn't unfair, it doesn't suffer fools. It is a difficulty that can be overcome through experience until you can speed run the game, which took you 30-40 hours first time through, in under 4 hours.
This is where the self imposed challenge runs come into play, level 1 runs, dual fist weapon only (you learn to parry incredibly quickly when you can't block anything), whip only etc. All this knowledge you've learned over the hours you've sunk into Dark souls ends in something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13q8TDpRCrA.
This guy is doing it at the lowest level, with the worst possible weapons in the game, with no shield and in a state where he will do more damage (thanks to a ring that boosts damage when you're close to death) but the boss will kill him in one hit. This is a boss that is tough for level appropriate characters. This is emergent gameplay and self imposed challenge at its finest in games.
Meanwhile CO has a strange difficulty curve that comes not from any genuine sense of toughness or lack of personal skill but because you lack a heal at the start or your lack damage abilities at the start. Once you pass a certain threshold, the game becomes so absurdly easy as to be a joke.
I've changed from the level 6 items you are given at the start into level 40 legions on my fist AT...
... But that was when I was farming mega-D's to level.
Exactly.
Oddly enough because of this regen seems like god mode if you get it at lower levels but at 40 compared to other healing options you can just plonk onto any build it isn't really the same.
Thing is that the NPC's dont' really get harder. The NPC's you'll have to beat up in 40 content are pretty much just as easy as the purple gang members. As you get higher levels NPC's should have had more things they can do to counter your new found power but other than basic stats increasing they can't do anything against a player who has a heal with basic defenses.
Character progression is slightly different in Cryptic's other game Neverwinter where once you hit 60 (max level) it ends up being all about getting gear and progressing your character that way. Every piece of gear you get which makes you more powerful allows you to get more powerful gear. The problem is that every time they add a new update they keep adding another layer. Because of how Cryptic stats work it pretty much is currently at the point of a Wizard being able to get to 50k hp (base is 20k) every stat which has a soft cap up to that soft cap and stack loads of power. (power has no diminishing returns and just increases damage by a flat %)
You see it especially in PVP, it is the cause of all the unbalance issues in the game. Although they did try to help counter it by adding harder NPC's in some areas and they add harder dungeons each time but if you are competent it isn't that hard still if you take off all your gear as long as you can dodge out of the way of things.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)