Support Stuns

jairevans · June 2014

In continuing in my recent streak of knowing nothing (Jon Snow), I wanted to try a support role character. I've noticed that some of my alerts go much smoother and it's typically the ones with glowing angels flapping their wings around adding 30 buff icons to their team and dropping colored lights everywhere. Then I saw Flowcyto's post on cyclone grouping/thunderclapping and being a big proponent of forced movement in tabletop gaming I really love the indirect teamwork of grouping everything in a big knot to be AoE'd down. Thunderclap seems really intermittent when I try to stun with it so I thought I'd try Telekinetic Maelstrom instead and while I'm throwing rocks at people to stun them, Cave In seemed a good idea too for single target. It doesn't seem all that bad for DPS either.

However I know absolutely nothing about playing a support role so feel free to point out the lunacy of some of my build decisions below.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Grimoire
Level 6: Diplomatic
Level 9: Shrug It Off
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Ascetic
Level 18: Showmanship
Level 21: Academics

Powers:
Level 1: Psi Lash
Level 1: Ego Sprites (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Telepathic Reverberation
Level 8: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Vicious Cyclone (Rank 2, Vortex Technique)
Level 14: Cave In (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Manipulator
Level 20: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Psionic Healing (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge
Level 29: Sigils of Ebon Weakness (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Ebon Void (Rank 2, Voracious Darkness)
Level 35: Palliate (Absolve)
Level 38: Divine Renewal

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Displacement Acrobatics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Mystic Flight

Specializations:
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Grandeur (3/3)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Caregiver (3/3)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

Unknown · June 2014

This content has been removed.

flowcyto · June 2014

Yup, stuns really are the only potential strong CC when in groups- since they actually hold up to any damage you throw at them. Even AoE holds like Ego Storm still aren't quite as efficient in a group setting.

Anyways, since I think you were citing my chains n stun build (that grew more into how to stack bleeds w/ the lariats, w/ good reasons- its stylish and decent dps for a chain build) I'm obliged to follow up here. For my build I wasn't actually running Support, but Hybrid role, even w/ that and r2 TC I could still stun groups for 4-5 sec by lvl 40. Its not as crazy as it could get, but its enough considering TC's cd- and combo'd w/ vortex cyclone that meant groups of mobs in Alerts were often rendered almost completely impotent.

One key to getting decent dmg from that build (since CC builds usually lack in dps) was using AoED as the passive and running decent crit for Ebon Lightning procs, as well as adding Eldritch Blast w/ Sorc's Whim taps- on stunned enemies a crit + the blast proc gives a nice burst of dmg ya can pummel the enemy w/ while they can't respond.

Unfortunately, ya still won't stun/CC bosses for any considerable length, so you'll want a decent single-target dps spell ya can spam vs. bosses. Since you have TK Reverb as the EU here and Pres PSS, that means ya can use Ego Blast w/ Mind Opener taps- Ego Sprites and the blast's disorient can help trigger TK Reverb (iirc).

Although I went the hybrid/dps route w/ mine, if you wanted more support style (seem to be going for that here) here's how I'd modify the build:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Grimoire
Level 6: Diplomatic
Level 9: Shrug It Off
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Ascetic
Level 18: Showmanship
Level 21: Academics

Powers:
Level 1: Eldritch Bolts (Accelerated Metabolism)
Level 1: Eldritch Blast (Rank 2, Sorcerer's Whim)
Level 6: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Manipulator
Level 11: Iron Cyclone (Rank 2, Vortex Technique)
Level 14: Ego Blast (Rank 2, Mind Opener)
Level 17: Telepathic Reverberation
Level 20: Thunderclap (Rank 2, Collateral Damage)
Level 23: Arcane Vitality (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Ego Sleep (Plagued by Nightmares)
Level 29: Divine Renewal
Level 32: Ebon Void (Rank 2, Voracious Darkness)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 38: Sigils of Ebon Weakness (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Displacement Acrobatics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Mystic Flight

Specializations:
Presence: Selfless Ally (2/2)
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Grandeur (1/3)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Caregiver (3/3)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Overseer: Administer (3/3)
Overseer: Ruthless (2/2)
Overseer: Honor (2/2)
Overseer: Trapped (3/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

I traded TK Maelstrom for TC just cause ya can use TC more frequently (ya can change it back to TK Maelstrom if ya want, though- its a good spell). For this build, TC + Eldritch taps becomes ur trash cleanup (vortex Cyclone if you need to clump mobs- I only chose the Iron version cause it has a 10% higher chance to knock), and Ego Sleep + Ego Blast taps become ur boss attacks. I chose ego sleep over sprites just cause it can trigger wither, manip, and sentinel mastery while still fueling TK Reverb w/ the Fear effect (since ego blast can't trigger manip, unlike eldritch blast). For debuffs ya got wither, trapped, sigils, fear, sentinel mastery, and disorient to juggle between- plenty of support there (could also get Impact over Honor in Overseer if ya wanted).

Arcane Vit is just an all-purpose (AoE) heal. If ya having trouble w/ spike dmg ya can always stick mindful reinforcement or protection field in there over MD- shields give ya an instant extra buffer for health (protection field lasts longer, but MF can double as a heal when it expires).

If energy is not an issue in the Hybrid role, ya may want to run in it when solo- but Support role for groups if ya wanna commit to that role.

I am unsure if Torment in Sentinel affects Stun duration- in case it doesn't, ya can get Moment of need or Eternal spring instead.

jairevans · June 2014

I'll give that a shot, thanks Flowcyto!

flowcyto · June 2014

Anytime. I've played similar builds (including the Mind AT) to good effect, but not one quite like that- so hope it works out for ya. If there's any concerns or issues, just let us/me know.

jairevans · June 2014

And just as an exercise in theorycrafting, here's a more thematic approach I was pondering while I should be working.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Ego (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Grimoire
Level 6: Showmanship
Level 9: Command Training
Level 12: Academics
Level 15: Diplomatic
Level 18: Shrug It Off
Level 21: Ascetic

Powers:
Level 1: Kinetic Darts
Level 1: Telekinetic Assault (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Ego Reverberation
Level 8: Telekinetic Burst (Sudden Impact)
Level 11: Manipulator
Level 14: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Expansive Intellect)
Level 17: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Ego Sprites (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Psionic Healing (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Telekinetic Lance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Telekinetic Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Palliate (Absolve)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 38: Rebirth

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Phoenix Flight (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Athletics (Versatility)

Specializations:
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Grandeur (3/3)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentinel: Caregiver (3/3)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (2/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

Probably should have done Overseer at the end there.

flowcyto · June 2014

I don't think Sudden Impact procs Manip, since its a KD (knocks don't typically work w/ the toggle). Also, ur main attacks (TKA & TKL) won't stack Manip. That build would prob be better as a standard Ranged dps using Concentration (and adding Mental Storm- which can replace ego sprites) and a dps-oriented SS setup (which means Ego or Dex PSS over Pres).

I'd also prob take r3 over Expansive Int on TK Maelstrom- it already has a wide reach as is; mine as well up the burst dmg and stun duration on it.

Also, Overseer won't be as good w/o a Blast power and/or something that can trigger Trapped- I'd skip the spec w/o those factors.

jairevans · June 2014

Drat. I was hoping Sudden Impact would let me quickly stack manipulator and ego leech for tk maelstrom. I wish they'd hurry up and get the wiki up and running.

jairevans · June 2014

Another variant based on how he's actually playing out in game.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Ego (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Grimoire
Level 6: Showmanship
Level 9: Diplomatic
Level 12: Academics
Level 15: Command Training
Level 18: Discipline Training
Level 21: Jack of All Trades

Powers:
Level 1: Eldritch Bolts
Level 1: Eldritch Blast (Rank 2, Sorcerer's Whim, Accelerated Metabolism)
Level 6: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Manipulator
Level 11: Iron Cyclone (Rank 2, Vortex Technique)
Level 14: Dragon Kick (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Arcane Vitality (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Ebon Void (Rank 2, Rank 3, Voracious Darkness)
Level 26: Sigils of Ebon Weakness (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Masterful Dodge
Level 32: Protection Field
Level 35: Divine Renewal
Level 38: Circle of Arcane Power

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Millennial Flight

Specializations:
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Grandeur (3/3)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Sentry: Precise (2/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (3/3)
Sentry: Stalling Tactics (3/3)
Sentry: Reinforce (2/2)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

flowcyto · June 2014

The combo of vortex cyclone and DK sounds nice- clump em up and go all Jet Li.. will give ya another stun option when TK Maelstrom is on cd.

(aannnd now: Super Stats! w/ your host: Flow)

The SS setup for this version could be more efficient. Having both Int and Ego 2ndary is somewhat of a waste for most builds. Normally you use either Ego or Int to fuel Concentration for ranged dps- favoring Int if the EU is MSA and Ego if the EU is KI/HI/Ego Reverb.

Int can be fine as a 2ndary SS, but outside of using the Ego-scaling EUs (or if you just want a really stupid ranged-knock distance), Ego is usually a waste as a 2ndary SS. This is mainly due to its additive ranged dmg soft-capping at 70 (or ~20% bonus- which ya can gear to w/o SSing it).

For Manipulator builds w/o an Ego-scaling EU, Int or Pres can do all/most of the work, and Ego 2ndary is thus also a waste. Further, AoPM by itself can get you to (or past) the Ego/Str/Pres additive dmg_heal bonus soft-caps by lvl 40; AoPM basically negates the need to gear those stats if ur only after the additive bonus and using that passive.

This means ya want ur SS's to be fueling something w/ higher return like the toggle (Manip) or any EU (here CoAP replaces an EU's effects- it scales w/ Rec, but there's no real need to gear for Rec further w/ AoPM), or providing a benefit that doesn't diminish as harshly (Con's extra max health, Dex's crit rate upto ~34% listed, Int's CDR, End's max energy, Rec's energy stats, Str's knock resist, etc). This is mainly why Con, Dex, and Int appear pretty often as 2ndary SS suggestions from my builds.

Anyways, I am unsure again if this build is going for healing support or not, so I'll just give some SS options, as they can change depending on ur goals:

Using the Support Role (emphasis on stating Pres for healing, manip, sigils, CC strength, and the aura effects on allies):
- PRES/Con/Dex - recommended setup if keeping Pres as the SS; good all-rounder
- PRES/Int/Dex - like above, but trading higher health for shorter cd timers
- DEX/Pres/Con - (still gearing mostly for Pres) dps/crit-oriented option that maintains some support
- INT/Pres/Con - great all-rounder option; INT PSS works well w/ AoPM
- INT/Pres/Dex - same as above, but more dps/healing for being squishier

If using the Hybrid role and emphasizing more of ur own performance over others (spot healing w/ some dps/debuffs), some other SS setups open up in addition to the above ones:

- INT/Con/Dex - a typical SS setup that works well w/ AoPM builds; great for hybrid/dps play, but weaker for support
- DEX/Int/Con - like DEX/Pres/Con, but weaker support/CC for shorter cd timers

oh, and there's one other good possible setup I forgot: STR/Pres/Con.
Str's PSS tree is notable for Brutality and Juggernaut, and that you can get much from it w/o stating much Str or even being melee (which is counter-intuitive, but w/e; Dex PSS is kinda like that too). Str PSS is best paired w/ Warden_Guardian + Vindicator for the high defense/offense loop that Juggernaut + Con feeds into, and you'll have better knock resist to boot (lower crit%, though).

(and that was: Super Stats! w/ Flow *cue kids cheering*)

Ur current spec trees are good as is for a mix of support w/ CC/hold strength, but will be lower on dps. Like the SS's, ya can change them around depending on ur goals. Other spec trees that could work for the build are Guardian (ranged dps option w/ good defense), Vindicator (crit/dps option- more for attacks than healing), Warden (like Guardian, but trading Find the Mark for Elusive), and Overseer (hybrid dps/heal tree, w/ an extra boost to blasts).

Lastly, ya may want to consider ranking up Protection Field if you plan on using it frequently- can take ranks from sigils, DK, or the block for it.
The build looks pretty good overall (though needing extra energy from CoAP will mean you have to stay in or near it; MSA could work w/ the build if ya found a way to put a shorter-cd power in there).

jairevans · June 2014

I don't know why it says Ego up there, I'm using PRE/int/con as like you said, AoPM is giving me plenty of Ego all by itself.

I've got plenty of cooldowns to power MSA and I've got a lot of Ego Leech stacks from TK Maelstrom if I wanted to go with the TK energy unlock. But I'm running in Support stance and have no energy issues. The circle at the end is completely superfluous.

Right now the TK maelstrom is a 8 second cooldown with a 10 second stun. It's ridiculous fun in alerts to stunlock entire swarms. I trade back and forth between teleporting in and stunning groups and playing straight healer with arcane vitality depending on what makes the alert go smoothest.

Off on my own TK maelstrom kills the henchmen and stuns the villain/master villain while Dragon Kick keeps him stunlocked for the cooldown until the next TK explosion. As I get more powers I may change that as manipulator stacks seem to last forever and the radius on TK maelstrom is so huge that I don't seem to be running around DK stunning outliers anymore.

So far this has been a lot of fun to play.

I might switch to PRE/dex/con as I'm not having any energy problems but I'm not sure how much that will affect the CD on TK maelstrom. As it is I've got 20% character sheet crit from AoPM dex and the PRE specialization that adds crit chance. And I'm just used to support/mages being INT/PRE from before On Alert. Dumb reason, but they may be pretty comparable.

flowcyto · June 2014

Alrighty- didn't know ya corrected the SS setup, but hey maybe someone else will find that mini-guide useful

But glad the build is proving adept at what you initially wanted to do.

Yeah, the cd powers will become dramatically shorter as you get better gear w/ levels- at lvl 40 ya may not really need Int for CDR since utility gear can have lotsa CDR already (and ya have a bit of Int naturally w/ AoPM anyways). Ya can prob go ahead and trade Int SS for Dex if ya want more dps and healing output- or at least as you get high level.

I wasn't sure if you were running in Support or not, but yeah that role tends to solve its own energy issues pretty easily and quickly and it allows CC durations to become crazy. In the end, it just means more power slots left open for you to pick from. One circle power that may still be useful at lvl 40 is CoPD if ur going up against Gravi- but not if ya have to run around healing everyone. CoRG can also be handy vs. F&I (as can Rebirth- one or the other).

kallethen · June 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

Yup, stuns really are the only potential strong CC when in groups- since they actually hold up to any damage you throw at them. Even AoE holds like Ego Storm still aren't quite as efficient in a group setting.

AoE holds are even LESS efficient in a group setting, IMO, because all it takes is one foe breaking free to end it... and a foe dying COUNTS AS BREAKING FREE.

Sooooo much hate for what On Alert did to Crowd Control...

flowcyto · June 2014

The forced cancellation of hold channels for reasons like that is annoying, I have to admit. Even if the whole CC system wasn't designed too well, at least we still have Manip and stuns

tdits · June 2014

kallethen wrote: »

AoE holds are even LESS efficient in a group setting, IMO, because all it takes is one foe breaking free to end it... and a foe dying COUNTS AS BREAKING FREE.

Sooooo much hate for what On Alert did to Crowd Control...

flowcyto wrote: »

The forced cancellation of hold channels for reasons like that is annoying, I have to admit. Even if the whole CC system wasn't designed too well, at least we still have Manip and stuns

So, if the ends on breakfree we're removed from AoE holds and Manipulator were changed to boost Hold HP instead of or in addition to hold duration, how far would that go towards making non-stun Crowd Control useful again?

flowcyto · June 2014

tdits wrote: »

So, if the ends on breakfree we're removed from AoE holds and Manipulator were changed to boost Hold HP instead of or in addition to hold duration, how far would that go towards making non-stun Crowd Control useful again?

It'd be decent for group pve if it also boosted hold health for ex, but it may also break CC for pvp again. Touchy issue- best solution lies in fully separating pve from pvp mechanics here, imo.

tdits · June 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

It'd be decent for group pve if it also boosted hold health for ex, but it may also break CC for pvp again. Touchy issue- best solution lies in fully separating pve from pvp mechanics here, imo.

This should have been the solution from the start. Everyone should have had a free seperate build with it's own power and advantage choices only for PvP and the powers and advantages should have worked differently for PvP.

jairevans · August 2014

Reworked it some. Was using the advantage on Energy Wave to pull things in, but I got frustrated with grouping people only to have them immediately Force Detonated, Chest Beamed, or Shotgun Blasted apart. Stuns work incredibly well and the presence in support role with ranked heals makes the team pretty much invincible in most alerts. Very different playstyle than my other characters.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Glacier
Level 6: Shrug It Off
Level 9: Diplomatic
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Survival Training
Level 18: Field Ops Training
Level 21: Jack of All Trades

Powers:
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 6: Sonic Device (Deafening Dissolution)
Level 8: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Manipulator
Level 14: Dragon Kick (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Arcane Vitality (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Laser Sword (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Particle Smash (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Sigils of Ebon Weakness (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Protection Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Divine Renewal
Level 38: Circle of Arcane Power

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Millennial Flight

Specializations:
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Grandeur (3/3)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentry: Precise (2/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (3/3)
Sentry: Stalling Tactics (3/3)
Sentry: Reinforce (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

pantagruel01 · August 2014

The big problem with CC in CO has always been the fact that it works better on PCs than NPCs -- PCs have the same inherent resistance level as Villains, MVs and Enforcers are more resistant, SV and above are totally immune. In addition, critter damage is low enough that they don't actually instantly blow off holds. As long as that's true, any level that makes CC useful against critters will be massively obnoxious against PCs.

Doubling hold health against NPCs might be a reasonable option.

Unknown · August 2014

This content has been removed.

jairevans · August 2014

Yeah. CC bad, stuns good. Run in, tap TK Maelstrom to stun everything in 25' for 10 seconds. Sonic Device, Particle Smash to biggest group, Laser Sword what's left. If stun wears off, TK maelstrom again.

On bosses play whackamole with your cooldowns and spam Laser Sword in between. If the tank needs help or the DPS is hurt you've got incredible presence and specialization boosted heals and shields to help out. If everyone is fine, you've got Laser Sword DPS speeding up the boss fight.

It's not amazing DPS for a healer but it works. And the utter locking down of all the master villains and enforcers on the way to the boss can make sometimes horrid teams in alerts actually live long enough to get the objective complete.

Support Stuns

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