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WotW vs LR for Unarmed
merlinmonroe
Posts: 40 Arc User
I want to PVE and mostly solo, with some alerts.
I'm mostly looking for a surviveable character.
I've used LR for a while and found it to be very surviveable. I've always played it as a hybrid, because I don't like tanking.
I just tried a low level toon with WotW. It definitely does more damage. It is pretty surviveable. I think it is a little less surviveable than LR.
Does anyone have a preference? I'm guessing that WotW would be better, because fights would be over quicker and it would be better for alerts and other group situations.
I'm mostly looking for a surviveable character.
I've used LR for a while and found it to be very surviveable. I've always played it as a hybrid, because I don't like tanking.
I just tried a low level toon with WotW. It definitely does more damage. It is pretty surviveable. I think it is a little less surviveable than LR.
Does anyone have a preference? I'm guessing that WotW would be better, because fights would be over quicker and it would be better for alerts and other group situations.
Post edited by merlinmonroe on
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WotW kinda gets around it because it gives a decent defensive boost while being an offensive passive, meaning you intend on taking damage sometimes...but usually at "just the right time" you will dodge a crucial ability...that's really all you can ask from WotW.
I prefer WotW due to not wanting to completely dedicate a build to dodge. I like hitting hard, especially if I'm melee. I would much rather take my chances as dps, even moreso while leveling...you just kill things so much faster.
Furthermore, I prefer to take Con as a secondary superstat a lot more now...since it is amazing, that I usually don't need the "extra" defense that LR would provide, WotW gives enough to make the fights quick, and me take a bit less damage, almost to the point that a defensive passive would just be unnecessary to level with. You could probably substitute any offensive passive for WotW for context here.
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WotW is one of the most versatile offensive passives. Although it is better when built around dodge, even just nabbing BCR/RR and MD can be 'enough' for it on non-tanky toons that don't plan on taking too many heavy hits or for too often.
LR is decent as is for a defensive passive, and it can somewhat easily become the most broken one when combined w/ enough dodge-increasing abilities- but that will restrict ur power selection a bit and require some extra maintenance.
Taking LR and giving up an offensive passives and the dps role will be a very considerable hit to your dps, though. Again, the two passive are somewhat aimed at different playing prefs- which one you like kinda just depends on ur tolerance for risk and/or how patient you are.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
However, it's not on its own enough that you can just do what you like - especially in alerts, if you're relying on just Way of the Warrior to keep you alive, you're going to faceplant quite a bit. It needs to be paired up with additional defensive boosts (gearing for some amount of dodge / avoidance, picking up a good self-heal, taking and ranking up a block, or preferably all of the above).
If your goal is high survivability - something that can solo alerts and lairs without ridiculous top-end gear - you're going to need a defensive passive. LR works just fine, but for a super-durable melee, I'd actually recommend defiance; it scales with con, which works really well with strength as your primary super stat, specced into con granting extra defense, and then a wardicator offence-defense feedback loop. (And con as a secondary super stat, of course.)
Invulnerability or LR or regeneration work too, but defiance has the very nice advantage of also giving you a strong energy return.
(As an aside: My heavy weapons character, with melee role and Night Warrior - which is a bit weaker defensively than Way of the Warrior - was able to start soloing alerts around level 32-ish, using a combination of conviction, ascension, masterful dodge, and ebon void - MD I left unranked, but the rest I maxed. Edit: and this was with int as a superstat; I can't cycle directly from MD to ascension and back, but they come up fast enough to ride through the gaps with just conviction and sometimes blocking. Unfortunately, she just folds over and dies if I try to take her through any of the level 35+ lairs - so if you're okay with needing a group for those, go for WotW over a defensive passive.)
Also note that you can, if you've got the powers to spare, pick up both an offensive passive and a defensive passive, and swap between them as needed. Defiance works particularly well for this purpose, since you don't need to rank it up.
Ajanus: I disagree on going completely for dodge or not at all. I've run the math, and even now, I get a better time-to-live by adding a bit of dodge to an otherwise dodge-free character than I get out of going pure defense. It doesn't help effective health, of course, so you don't want to rely on it against burst damage, but having, say, 30% dodge chance and 40% avoidance is still, on average, reducing damage by 12%. Over a long fight - soloing a lair boss, for example - that adds up.
For LR I find myself gearing for defense w/LK also unless I want to reach 100% dodge. Its too risky to gear for all dodge but not reach 100% as one undodged hit could be devastating, i.e. Frosticus
It appears that the consensus is that WotW is better in general.
What is the best self heal for WotW? For LR, it is definitely BCR/RR. Is that true of WotW? Are other heals better, or is BCR better with a rank 3?
If the above elements are not present to make the case for Conviction then there's nothing wrong with BCR which is a fine low energy heal.
Reiki's proc is the same amount as the tick at rank2, sooo.. using some sample #s (129 = r2_RR amount, 155 = r3):
129 + 129x = 155
x = 0.202 (ie, same as the diff in one rank)
In order to get same ~total healing from rank3 vs. rank2+RR, you'd need at least 1/5th an RR proc every tick interval (ie. 2 sec).. or one dodge every 10 sec on average. If something hits every 2 sec (say a slower boss) that would mean a ~20% avg dodge rate. If getting attacked every 0.5 sec (0.5 sec is the ICD for for RR procs) that'd only require a ~5% dodge rate (base is 10%) to even RR+rank2 w/ rank3.
IOW, although it depends on the frequency of (dodge-able) attacks inc, its likely that RR+rank2 is better for total healing than rank3. A 'safe' cutoff in most cases would prob be at about 20-25% dodge, imo. Do note that rank3 will do more healing when not getting hit at all, however, and I'm not really counting the initial application of BCR giving 2 ticks w/in a sec.. which slightly favors rank3's numbers in total.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I would not say that. It completely depends on what kind of build you want to play.
Conviction heals more, but requires a little bit more paying attention. With the 10% damage debuff on BCR I would only take BCR for builds that dodge pretty much every hit, and even then not on dps builds.
You can tank Gravitar on WotW but not Frosticus. You'll die in 2 seconds on a Mega Destroid Terminator with WotW but you can survive the eyebeams with a 100% Dodge LR tank. It all depends on what you want to do with your hero.
I tried tanking on WoW several years ago. I failed my first try and didn't try again. Everyone expected me to run around and get every aggro. I've been afraid to try tanking since then.
Is tanking with LR really complicated? Since it appears that tank role attracts aggro, would I have to run around a lot?
Most mobs die too fast to even really worry over threat wise, and on bosses..anyone who doesn't want threat..won't get threat, so really with a good build Tanking is fairly simple in most cases.
That being said...I don't think LR is the best passive for a first try at Tanking really. It has afew short term buff to maintain and can be tricky for leveling/low gear. LR really shines in the best gear with 100% chance to dodge attacks.
Personally...I would go with Invulnerability, it is a strong passive and would allow you to get the hang for tanking before trying out more difficult ideas, that being Said..if you do go for LR there is a good guide for it here in the Forums.
Alexandra.
As far as getting aggro as a tank, much of it lies in picking up the CC/CS advs on regular powers. You want one staple attack w/ CripC, and one staple AoE move w/ CS. You still need to do decent enough dmg to continue to hold threat, and due to the nature of balance in this game it isn't likely ya can always hold threat- but if you build cohesively then most of the times you can.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I narrowed it down to WotW and LR because they are MA passives. I want an agile type MA. I don't think that many other passives fit within the MA conception.
There have been some MA movies in which there was an invulnerable MA, but I don't want that in my concept.
Alternatively, any of the defensive passives can be justified as martial arts concepts:
Regeneration might be ki focusing techniques to keep your lifeforce strong (much like Conviction or BCR, just, all the time).
Or Invulnerability / Defiance might be explained as special techniques for deflecting incoming attacks - which, really, is exactly the same as what LR does for you anyway; it's not like you can actually dodge attacks in this game. It's just damage reduction, not making things actually miss.
You can still solo Gravitar with Regen and Heroic Gear with Rank 5s.
I made some new toons and tried each. At low level, Regen was definitely the most surviveable.
I then used my lvl 31 toon and used each in the holo combat simulation in the powerhouse. I had mostly the same results, except that WotW killed them faster.
The one problem with regen is that it won't pair well with Form of the Master since it doesn't help dodge. This would reduce damage with unarmed.
Regen would be much better with a different MA form, such as SB, DB or claws.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
The adv work different? The adv on FotMaster is really nice to get tripple BCR stacks.
Earlier, I used the Holo combat sim in the Powerhouse. I used Hard opponents in 2 groups. Each time, I lost the fight and had 2 opponents remaining.
When I fought opponents in 1 group, I won the fight using each of the three compared abilities.
I just tried again using Normal opponents in 2 groups. WotW and LR combined with BCR lost the fights in both attempts.
Regen won both fights and I didn't use BCR.
I plan to make a new Unarmed MA using Regen.
Especially since it's debuff stopped stacking.
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Storm's Eye? Yeah its good, but I found it not needed most of the time. At lvl 40 ya can get lotsa CDR gear to have a short BCR cd already. Its a good adv, but its costly and locks you into a form that makes you dodge-reliant.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
It did?! Well FotM sounds promising for going up against an MD-Terminator ;-)
Yeah, the debuff stopped stacking at about the same time that all the 10% buff/debuff numbers became 9.5%
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Yup, or tank frosticus with only BCR for a heal.