Buff Melee Damage

rtma · June 2014

Fleeting Suggestion but considering the Brick Melee for example should be doing alot more considering they should be devastating for their relatively slower speed while Ranged has the luxury of sitting back and dumping damage, Melee has to play catch up, need to make it more appealing, AT's don't count cause DR don't affect them so much.

championshewolf · June 2014

Wut?

Seriously wut?

Melee is the top damage dealers at the moment.

rtma · June 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

Wut?

Seriously wut?

Melee is the top damage dealers at the moment.

Doesn't feel that way with me, if you can land a hit that is, got someone constantly moving and your boned, Spiking ones like Haymaker or Dragon's Wrath shouldn't define overall efficiency, you tried dominating with Heavy Weapons/Unstoppable? seems lacking, even better, Earth Melee, I don't see anyone use it.

bluhman · June 2014

Melee's all about Boss killing. And it does that extremely well, so long as it isn't an enemy that constantly explodes.

Might also isn't quite as underperforming as the DPS charts might make it out to be. Full-charged Haymakers do a ridiculous amount of damage, due to stacking knock-resist damage multipliers. A full-charge Haymaker is probably only second to a single-blade Rupture in terms of DPS - perhaps even better, considering Haymaker has no requirement for a setup.

I kind of wish I could say the same for Heavy Weapons.

Also Earth doesn't count as a Melee Set. It also doesn't count as a Ranged Set. It doesn't count as a Set. It counts as a lump.

tdits · June 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

Wut?

Seriously wut?

Melee is the top damage dealers at the moment.

It sounds more like he wants Brick buffed than for melee to be buffed generally. And Brick does need a little love: mostly Earth & HW. Haymaker is just about perfect though.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

bluhman · June 2014

rtma wrote: »

...you tried dominating with Heavy Weapons/Unstoppable? seems lacking, even better, Earth Melee, I don't see anyone use it.

While I'm at it, Unstoppable is almost a completely different issue altogether - not because Melee is underpowered in of itself, but because it's an outright inferior passive to Way of the Warrior. It's just WotW without defense and some energy generation gimmick that Enrage already offers. It should just be retooled into something like:

Same damage boosts as before (which are the same as WotW)
Moderate damage resistance boost (~25%), alongside other past defensive perks (increased knock resistance, and a very small flat subtraction factor.)
Even higher resistance to damage and knock offered when charging Melee Charge attacks, encouraging the use of 'risky' and lengthy smashes - think like Focus Attacks from Street Fighter.
Lose the energy return.

flowcyto · June 2014

bluhman wrote: »

While I'm at it, Unstoppable is almost a completely different issue altogether - not because Melee is underpowered in of itself, but because it's an outright inferior passive to Way of the Warrior. It's just WotW without defense and some energy generation gimmick that Enrage already offers. It should just be retooled into something like:

[*]Same damage boosts as before (which are the same as WotW)

[*]Moderate damage resistance boost (~25%), alongside other past defensive perks (increased knock resistance, and a very small flat subtraction factor.)

[*]Even higher resistance to damage and knock offered when charging Melee Charge attacks, encouraging the use of 'risky' and lengthy smashes - think like Focus Attacks from Street Fighter.

[*]Lose the energy return.

I would tend to agree, but some builds actually do make use of Unstoppable's energy proc atm. Maybe if they also introduced a melee-specific EU..

Melee in general is fine, DPS-wise- its dps values aren't nearly as wide and variant as Ranged dmg powers, but they can def be very high.

Main issue is more that they have to rely on 'gimmicks' for energy gen that dun really suit the melee theme (Int + MSA) or have significant downside's (Unstoppable's low defenses, being forced to take a Rush move w/ Focus, Rec SS, being forced to knock or bleed for Enrage, etc). Another main issue is this game's fights generally hate melee- they are just subject to more splash dmg and effects than Ranged ever will be- sometimes to a silly extent (Gravi). And finally melee AoE as a whole either sucks to AoE with (120d cones) or is too limited in options and reach compared to Ranged AoE (I mean it is a given that should be true, but not to the extent it is now, imo).

notyuu · June 2014

Melee overall is fine, sure most of the powers are meh in damage output but are usually eaither fast on the charge and root you while you do, or are click powers, on top of that most melee sets have some amazingly hard hitting powers which are much slower on the draw but can usually crush most enemies, the only real melee set that needs a boost is Heavy Weapons, because OMFG they are weak, costly and the hardest hitting attack it has self roots and does SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than the other hard hitters and in some cases even less than some of the weaker attacks.

so to boil it all down, HW needs a buff like a starving man needs food, but the rest of melee is fine as is.

tdits · June 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

I would tend to agree, but some builds actually do make use of Unstoppable's energy proc atm. Maybe if they also introduced a melee-specific EU...

<_< The Force EU I suggested would also work nicely as a replacement (or supplement) for Unstoppable's energy proc. Anyone taking Unstoppable for its energy is going to be knocking rather consistently anyway. And melee toons tend to suffer knock attempts a little more often than ranged toons as well.

championshewolf · June 2014

notyuu wrote: »

Melee overall is fine, sure most of the powers are meh in damage output but are usually eaither fast on the charge and root you while you do, or are click powers, on top of that most melee sets have some amazingly hard hitting powers which are much slower on the draw but can usually crush most enemies, the only real melee set that needs a boost is Heavy Weapons, because OMFG they are weak, costly and the hardest hitting attack it has self roots and does SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than the other hard hitters and in some cases even less than some of the weaker attacks.

so to boil it all down, HW needs a buff like a starving man needs food, but the rest of melee is fine as is.

Actually very few if any melee powers root you. Even haymaker you can charge while moving.

tdits · June 2014

gradii wrote: »

I think he's talking about heavy weapons. lackluster damage, AND a lot of rooting powers.

I think they should just replace the self roots on Heavy Weapons powers with a self snare, like whatever that Munitions power (Assault Rifle? Submachine Gun Burst?) has. They should do the same to Gatling Gun as well.

flowcyto · June 2014

gradii wrote: »

I think he's talking about heavy weapons. lackluster damage, AND a lot of rooting powers.

Brimstone iz gud for a melee 10ft spehere AoE. I can understand why its stationary. Havoc Stomp on the other hand..

Skewer could stand to not lockdown. Annihilate I dun mind rooting if they made it an appropriately huge-hitting attack. Right now its just not that w/ Haymaker around, and is actually better dps to tap-spam due to how its knock immune bonus works.. which is kinda silly given the slow and weighty theme of HW.

wrathsoul1 · June 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

Brimstone iz gud for a melee 10ft spehere AoE. I can understand why its stationary. Havoc Stomp on the other hand..

Skewer could stand to not lockdown. Annihilate I dun mind rooting if they made it an appropriately huge-hitting attack. Right now its just not that w/ Haymaker around, and is actually better dps to tap-spam due to how its knock immune bonus works.. which is kinda silly given the slow and weighty theme of HW.

Or Skewer can be made as a thrusting lunge.

sinistro1978 · June 2014

notyuu wrote: »

Melee overall is fine, sure most of the powers are meh in damage output but are usually eaither fast on the charge and root you while you do, or are click powers, on top of that most melee sets have some amazingly hard hitting powers which are much slower on the draw but can usually crush most enemies, the only real melee set that needs a boost is Heavy Weapons, because OMFG they are weak, costly and the hardest hitting attack it has self roots and does SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than the other hard hitters and in some cases even less than some of the weaker attacks.

so to boil it all down, HW needs a buff like a starving man needs food, but the rest of melee is fine as is.

Agreed. HW has been in a pretty bad place since Aggressor was changed to an active offense. The Devastator's damage was originally based on Enrage/Aggressor double stacking. We're still waiting for compensation.

Although HW is the only melee framework that truly needs a buff, some of the other melee frameworks still need some love. Like claws getting a decent AoE, for example.

championshewolf · June 2014

sinistro1978 wrote: »

Agreed. HW has been in a pretty bad place since Aggressor was changed to an active offense. The Devastator's damage was originally based on Enrage/Aggressor double stacking. We're still waiting for compensation.

Although HW is the only melee framework that truly needs a buff, some of the other melee frameworks still need some love. Like claws getting a decent AoE, for example.

I strongly disagree with this. HW isn't that bad off and really isn't lagging at all behind anything else melee wise. It feels slow so many people interpret it as being weaker. It's also an AE set, versus a single target set. And as an AE set hits still impressively hard.

championshewolf · June 2014

gradii wrote: »

there's still some god why so weak powers. Annihilate roots. sure it has a faster charge, but for a power that roots?

if it roots, put it on par with haymaker (which does NOT root). or lose the root. one of the two.

Annihilate gives a debuff. In fact comparing their DPS annihilate comes out ahead. The only thing that makes Haymaker good is the knock value. Take out that knock value Haymaker would actually be the weaker power, substantially.

Personally, the knock damage bonus needs to be removed. Damage values have been ridiculous because of it and no one really cares about fall damage anymore.

wrathsoul1 · June 2014

Hell, is there even any incentive to go melee? After all, with people like Warlord that can simply shoot near his foot with inextinguishable napalm rounds, thus making melee attacks out of the question...

championshewolf · June 2014

wrathsoul1 wrote: »

Hell, is there even any incentive to go melee? After all, with people like Warlord that can simply shoot near his foot with inextinguishable napalm rounds, thus making melee attacks out of the question...

He's beena round how long and no one has figured out how that works? No wonder people think things are hard.

Hint;

If you are at range of him and you have aggro he fires napalm. If you got knocked, wait a few seconds to see if he fires napalm before charging back into melee. It's not that hard to figure these patterns out.

Seriously more than likely if you find melee "has it hard" it's probably because of your play style or ineffective way you are playing, not the fact things are underpowered.

wrathsoul1 · June 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

He's beena round how long and no one has figured out how that works? No wonder people think things are hard.

Hint;

If you are at range of him and you have aggro he fires napalm. If you got knocked, wait a few seconds to see if he fires napalm before charging back into melee. It's not that hard to figure these patterns out.

Seriously more than likely if you find melee "has it hard" it's probably because of your play style or ineffective way you are playing, not the fact things are underpowered.

Then again, I only fought him with ranged characters, so I simply camped on the balcony, in range for the AR and the Gatling Gun and mow him down.

championshewolf · June 2014

gradii wrote: »

only problem with that statement is Annihilate does not give a debuff. that's another power you're thinking of.

*shrugs* Still does more damage, and substantially so. Knock bonus damage just needs to be removed, all power damage is pretty much baseline now, and the powers with bonus damage from knock are just ridiculous right now because of it. No one cares about fall damage anymore, and this would give back a reason to turn ragdoll back on if this component wasn't even needed anymore.

tdits · June 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

*shrugs* Still does more damage, and substantially so. Knock bonus damage just needs to be removed, all power damage is pretty much baseline now, and the powers with bonus damage from knock are just ridiculous right now because of it. No one cares about fall damage anymore, and this would give back a reason to turn ragdoll back on if this component wasn't even needed anymore.

How does Annihilate do substantially more damage than Haymaker? Are you adding up the damage to all targets, Because it's rather hard to line up and you can't move while you're charging it.

flowcyto · June 2014

Just to put base dmg numbers behind it:

Annihilate tap dps: ~370, knock immune: ~460
Annihilate charge dps: ~365, knock immune: ~400

Haymaker tap dps: ~440, knock immune: same
Haymaker charge dps: ~420, knock immune: ~630

Basically Haymaker would be okay in comparison to Annihilate if it weren't for the big discrepancy in knock immune bonus (50% charged vs. 25% tapped or 5-10% charged for Annihilate). Haymaker is standout because of that huge 50% bonus; w/o the bonus its still really good, but nothing special. If they were more even, Haymaker would sitll need to avg higher dps, imo, just cause the charge time is much longer. Haymaker's current downfall is that interrupts in the charge can drastically affect the knock immune bonus you get.

Funnily enough, the Devastator, though lacking in Annihilate, does good dps thanks to the lighter DR and Aggressor. Can get 10k or so crits on Skewer or Skullcrusher charges when everything gets going- and that's good for a 1.5 sec cast power and not top-of-the-line gear.

Oh, and just for lulz:

Upheaval tap dps ~265, knock immune: ~370 (3x Stagger: ~425)
Upheaval charge dps ~250, knock immune: ~290

Add in Stagger and Upheaval taps can actually be pretty good for Melee/Str Earth, but only against knock-immune targets. Considering stagger doesn't get refreshed when stacking and doesn't last that long, there's not much reason to charge it.

W/o a knock immune bonus, the move is just crap.

How does Annihilate do substantially more damage than Haymaker? Are you adding up the damage to all targets, Because it's rather hard to line up and you can't move while you're charging it.

I think ur confusing Annihilate w/ Arc of Ruin or Skewer or Skullcrusher. Annihilate doesn't have an AoE component.

tdits · June 2014

Oh, I was confusing it was Skewer. Derp.

rtma · June 2014

wrathsoul1 wrote: »

Hell, is there even any incentive to go melee?

My point exactly, considering their general harder disposition and short of a power balance overhaul, I'm suggesting to give Brick Melee the 20% damage lost and perhaps another 10-20% on top of that for all melee would make it more, viable and enticing then a disadvantage as it is today, buff the fall damage back as well? while removing the Knock Immune damage increase they did as a band-aid buff.

Lemme ask you something, when was the last time you had a full team of Melee oriented builds? exactly..

championshewolf · June 2014

rtma wrote: »

My point exactly, considering their general harder disposition and short of a power balance overhaul, I'm suggesting to give Brick Melee the 20% damage lost and perhaps another 10-20% on top of that for all melee would make it more, viable and enticing then a disadvantage as it is today, buff the fall damage back as well? while removing the Knock Immune damage increase they did as a band-aid buff.

Lemme ask you something, when was the last time you had a full team of Melee oriented builds? exactly..

Why would you want a team full of melee oriented builds? My build is full melee oriented. Seriously, you are trying way too hard to make it sound like melee is in a super desperate spot when melee is actually the king of the crop. If your measuring stick is all melee team (which I've been in even today) then that seems a tad arbitrary and not exactly a good measuring stick since people want to build the hero they want not make a hero based around what stat is the best.

rtma · June 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

Why would you want a team full of melee oriented builds? My build is full melee oriented. Seriously, you are trying way too hard to make it sound like melee is in a super desperate spot when melee is actually the king of the crop. If your measuring stick is all melee team (which I've been in even today) then that seems a tad arbitrary and not exactly a good measuring stick since people want to build the hero they want not make a hero based around what stat is the best.

And from my Experience 8.5/10 times everyone using ranged powers because it's easier and more versatile, not that I've asked why but I assume it's because they'd have to work harder to achieve the same result, rather then getting in their face they'd rather keep it safe at range, now why do that when it has that advantage over Melee?

crypticbuxom · June 2014

Not many dps charts out there comparing pvp damage output. I'm willing to bet that range outdoes melee damage by many, many, many times. Convenience has to always be considered in damage balance.

chalupaoffury · June 2014

Comparing pvp to pve in terms of efficacy is like comparing which bicycle would be best to use in a monster truck rally. Only an idiot takes hw into pvp, but for pve it's pretty high tier when used correctly and built properly.

HW is underpowered? Let's look at what it does have.

1: The strongest aoe of any of the melee sets. Cleave hits like a bag of hammers if you're built for it, using combo specs and the occasional Arc of Ruin makes for some hilarious damage. Combo specs set up extra dps for the Arc, which debuffs and sets even higher dps for the Cleave... You see where I'm going with this.

2: versatility. *2* lunges, one of which actually does good dps. It's mobile, mine skitters around the battlefield like a pinball machine. It also has a knock to, a good HW player never has a lack of stuff in front of it to murder. Skewer has a 1 point advantage that lets you pick if you're a full charge player or a tapper. It's offensive but the bread and butter attack (cleave) also grants defiance so you can hold down the trash mobs. It's got the same debuffing abilities as might (DR reduction and trauma) but in one case on an AOE (which is far superior imo, debuffing crowds is tasty), and on the other case in a fast clicky.

3: some of the fastest enrage building in the game. eruption is a really quick pop that does decent damage, and cleave'll fill you up in a matter of a few seconds. My HW builds enrage quicker than my flying brick with uppercut/haymaker.

4: IT DOESN'T KNOCK EVERY MOB HALFWAY ACROSS THE MAP FOR NO GOOD REASON. Boldcapunderline for emphasis, if you're chasing it you're not hurting it.

That all pretty much adds up to an aoe nightmare. Thing is, though, it's not as efficient when used with the passive that came with it. WotW with elusive monk/some dodge stuff turns it into a pretty solid off-tank that chews on alert mobs. IMO, unstoppable isn't really very good for much of anything, although I'm getting pretty decent mileage out of it on my flying brick, but that might be more because of the 540 str. The damage reduction could use a tweak, at the least.

What's dangerous here when we're considering HW is that we're comparing it to Brick. Brick is OP, full stop. It hits like a truck, hits quickly (mostly), and defiance is far and away one of the best passives we have access to. That dps bonus against unknockable mobs is flat out insane, broken, and wrong. It's also why hw lags behind.

Sidenote: god. The set has style. It feels slow, which leads to the impression people have that it's weak, but the slowness just feels more natural. I'd actually put it far above brick in that regard, holding your hand back for a second and a half to swing at someone is just silly. Dragging your weapon behind your head so you can drop it on someone's face is a lot more natural. Also, if I ever saw one of my students throw a punch like haymaker does, I'd smack em on the back of the head with a shinai and tell them never to do it again. I swear that set was animated by someone who's never even seen a fistfight.

flowcyto · June 2014

HW's incidental/short range AoE is prob is strongest practical aspect.

I think people get hung up about it *seemingly* not having a standout boss-dps move. Most other melee powersets have at least one strong option there:

Laser Sword: the basic combo, cauterize
Dual Blade: DW
Single Blade: bleed+rupture
Fighting Claws: DC, shredded + TB
Unarmed: 100Hands w/ GS, BCF, DU
Bestial SN: Shred + Massacre, DE
TK Blades: EBA/EBB
Melee Earth: lol
Might: Demolish/BtB + Haymaker
(non-melee trees: Bullet Ballet and Gauntlet Chainsaw)

For HW its best option there is Annihilate taps- which are good and easily competitive on knock immune targets vs. the above moves, but has a forced KB on CC-able mobs and roots you (none of the moves I listed above have any lockdown, sans plasma cutter). Most players prob dun realize that the knock immune bonus ramps down for the power, so they try out charged Annihilate (cause hey why not? HW is about the slow, heavy attacks, and Haymaker works best when charged) and see its not as good. If you want the best boss dps outta HW ya gotta keep doing that spinny backhand uppercut anim like a looney (w/ Arc's debuff, ofc) and settle on smaller, more rapid-fire numbers.

Skewer and charged Skullcrusher (both are about the same base dps at r3 + their 1pt special advs, assuming Disorient w/ Skullcrusher; tapped Skullcrusher is weaker) are only mediocre for single-target. Eruption is good on disoriented targets, but on a cd. Arc's dps isn't competitive in itself, but the adv debuff and guaranteed disorient on full-charge make it worthwhile to have around.

That said, if HW is UP then I dun wanna know what melee Earth is.

tdits · June 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

That said, if HW is UP then I dun wanna know what melee Earth is.

A cruel joke meant to torture anyone who might want to use it.

flowcyto · June 2014

tdits wrote: »

A cruel joke meant to torture anyone who might want to use it.

I'm inspired to make a melee-Earth tank my next FF :X I wanna use Onslaught, even if its meh. Boulder jamboree ftw

tdits · June 2014

gradii wrote: »

what's funny is annihilate is single target.

As I mentioned, I was thinking of Skewer there. Derp. :P

kaiserin · June 2014

What you are witnessing is power creep. Melee was respectable back in the day, but thanks to various buffs range now reigns supreme.

Most melee sets (in terms of dps) are on the same playing field. Exceptions are Haymaker, Devour Essence, Laser Sword and Massacre who are above average. Laser Sword and Haymaker being way above average in output.

Buffing is not the answer, buffing lead to the problems we are facing today. Various ranged abilities need to be toned down.

rugrothrumbor · June 2014

There should be one thing to try. Making all melee charge up attacks be charged up while being several feet distance away from the target. Maybe something like the Power Armor ranged attack distance.

And it's not like ranged was terrible when melee had those buffs. I would say giving martial arts melee attacks a 10% damage boost, and 20% for brick/feral attacks could help as well.

rtma · June 2014

kaizerin wrote: »

What you are witnessing is power creep. Melee was respectable back in the day, but thanks to various buffs range now reigns supreme.

Most melee sets (in terms of dps) are on the same playing field. Exceptions are Haymaker, Devour Essence, Laser Sword and Massacre who are above average. Laser Sword and Haymaker being way above average in output.

Buffing is not the answer, buffing lead to the problems we are facing today. Various ranged abilities need to be toned down.

Well considering their isn't much of the way of a Form/Passive tailored to Laser Sword and Haymaker is just silly with the bloated Knock Immune damage bonus, would like to see Brick Melee get their 20% damage back (Remove a portion of KIDB as a result), revert their fall damage inducing and toning down certain ranged powers could also work, but in the end a Overall Power Balance would be nice to.

kaiserin · June 2014

Night Warrior/Electric form/Quarry works fine for Laser Sword.
Brick/Bestial/Infernal did not lose 20% damage. The old forms existed to replicate having critiical attack chance without having to invest in dexterity. This was removed when mods were introduced as one could acquire large amounts of crit without investing in dex.

Range is overtuned at the moment. On Alert introduced way too many buffs towards it and various power buffs made it way too potent. Melee has some outliers but isn't completely out of whack. Range needs to be adjusted.

rtma · June 2014

kaizerin wrote: »

Night Warrior/Electric form/Quarry works fine for Laser Sword.
Brick/Bestial/Infernal did not lose 20% damage. The old forms existed to replicate having critiical attack chance without having to invest in dexterity. This was removed when mods were introduced as one could acquire large amounts of crit without investing in dex.

Fascinating, I meant from when Aggressor was a toggle they reduced the damage on Brick Melee and never buffed it back up is what I meant to return the 20% damage to. -.=.-

alexandrafreya · June 2014

Anatha@aqa is a HW build that actually does amazing well in PvP?

That asides and Personally I put alot of that down to Aqa just being really good at CO combat, HW damage is heavily lacking I think...not Earth lacking true, but much behind other powersets in terms of DPS use)

At least from the uses I have seen of it, Maybe I'm wrong or building things wrong...but I can barely get 3.2k DPS on out HW (compared with 5-7K DPS from other Melee builds)

Honestly and chances are I am wrong...Both Haymaker and Annihilate struggle DPS wise but seem to give little differences when used as tanks powers..I've always thought the knockback bonus is somehow just working out better when used for tanking then for DPS...Maybe it's A DR thing..I don't know..but it always seemed that way to me.

Sorry I got anything wrong...I'm not great on the small details.

Alexandra.

lovehammer1 · June 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this. HW isn't that bad off and really isn't lagging at all behind anything else melee wise. It feels slow so many people interpret it as being weaker. It's also an AE set, versus a single target set. And as an AE set hits still impressively hard.

Sorry. But i laughed really hard when i saw this quote.
Umm..no. The HW set is not interpreted as being weaker... it is weaker!
And yes. It is that bad off. Annihilate is a joke as a heavy hitting power. And, it roots on top of that. Do you think all of these people, for basically as long as the set has been around don't know the difference between heavy hitting and "What?" "Is that it?" Please...

It needs a damage boost in a big way. It is certainly not worthy of the title "HEAVY WEAPONS".
Nowhere close. And Earth? Well... that set needs even more help. You might even think that set is fine too, huh.

Melee needs some help. It is not in a good place at the moment, IMHO.

aiqa · June 2014

lovehammer1 wrote: »

Sorry. But i laughed really hard when i saw this quote.
Umm..no. The HW set is not interpreted as being weaker... it is weaker!
And yes. It is that bad off. Annihilate is a joke as a heavy hitting power. And, it roots on top of that. Do you think all of these people, for basically as long as the set has been around don't know the difference between heavy hitting and "What?" "Is that it?" Please...

It needs a damage boost in a big way. It is certainly not worthy of the title "HEAVY WEAPONS".
Nowhere close. And Earth? Well... that set needs even more help. You might even think that set is fine too, huh.

Melee needs some help. It is not in a good place at the moment, IMHO.

Have to agree here. And there is no such thing as a "AOE set", in a freeform game ALL powers need to be balanced, you can't do things like making AOE classes like in a class based game unless you intend to have people just cherry pick AOE powers from "AOE sets" and single target powers from "singel target sets".

Since the agressor/enrage changes I have never seen any hard numbers suggesting HW is well of dps wise, only people saying that is fine, while I did post my finding showing it lags behind. So if anyone wants to prove differently.. good luck with that.

And yes earth is even worse of.

gradii wrote: »

Anatha uses that crazy stun from HW, its kind of a game breaker when melee vs melee.

I do fine in pvp with my heavy weapons toon as well, but the damage is still very lacking.

Since when is a short duration click stun crazy and game breaking, there are lots of other powers that do that. You probably mean "uses trauma", which is true, but also certainly not a unique effect.

kaiserin · June 2014

rtma wrote: »

Fascinating, I meant from when Aggressor was a toggle they reduced the damage on Brick Melee and never buffed it back up is what I meant to return the 20% damage to. -.=.-

That is what I am referring to.
Aggressor, Aspect of the Bestial, Aspect of the Infernal, and Mental Discipline were forms that were placed in to replicate critical chance. These forms acted very differently than the MA forms as MA was expected to have Dex.

Come on alert these forms (with the exception of Mental Discipline) were changed because of the introduction of crit mods. Since anyone could have high crit chance without investing in dex, those forms were changed to be in line with the MA forms.

rugrothrumbor · June 2014

kaizerin wrote: »

Night Warrior/Electric form/Quarry works fine for Laser Sword.
Brick/Bestial/Infernal did not lose 20% damage. The old forms existed to replicate having critiical attack chance without having to invest in dexterity. This was removed when mods were introduced as one could acquire large amounts of crit without investing in dex.

Range is overtuned at the moment. On Alert introduced way too many buffs towards it and various power buffs made it way too potent. Melee has some outliers but isn't completely out of whack. Range needs to be adjusted.

It would be nice to make Brick have an option to make a non-crit high damage build again. Right now we have to conform to this crit build. An alternative Enrage toggle that can boost damage but drop crit chance down to 0% or something.

aiqa · June 2014

kaizerin wrote: »

What you are witnessing is power creep. Melee was respectable back in the day, but thanks to various buffs range now reigns supreme.

That is only true for very specific builds, and even so there are very specific melee builds that compete strongly.

kaizerin wrote: »

Most melee sets (in terms of dps) are on the same playing field. Exceptions are Haymaker, Devour Essence, Laser Sword and Massacre who are above average. Laser Sword and Haymaker being way above average in output.

That is almost half of the melee sets that have overperforming powers? And with the advantages you get out of MA (rush/high dodge potential), I think it is pretty fair it is not a top contender for dps, even though it kind of is for certain setups. Ego blades does not have a single high damage power but with ego weaponry/ego annihilation/mental storm (yes I know... not a melee power) you can get very good dps too, between 6 and 7k is very much possible without using things like dark transfusion. Leaving not that many sets that are underperforming? All in all I can only think of only one set that in any form is not going to be a close to competitive choice for single target melee attacks.

kaizerin wrote: »

Buffing is not the answer, buffing lead to the problems we are facing today. Various ranged abilities need to be toned down.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean here, but I'll respond to how it looks to me.

There just needs to be some decision about how much dps is normal on what types of builds, and made sure there are not options to get a lot more. I disagree buffing powers is the cause of how things are today, the only power that was really overbuffed is tgm, the rest were new powers like concentration, mental storm, straving run and rimfire. Ice blast or lightning arc or tk assault was not buffed.

When looking at actual dps numbers, for most "normal" themed ranged dps build, getting significantly more than 5k dps is hard or even impossible, and requires very very good gear. And to compare there are (fully theme) melee tanks that do >4k dps (like you well know), and if you count Shred>ReapersEmbrace>Tigersbite builds that goes a lot higher still.
So how would that look when the ranged powers I have seen you talking about before got toned down? That would just end up with the better performing melee tanks doing more dps than all but the optimal cherrypicked fotm ranged dps builds, like they did in the past. I don't want to go back to that, when I make a ranged dps build I expect to do well more damage than any melee tank.

The way to handle this is not to tone down the normal ranged attack powers, it is to look at how a build can go so far beyond the damage you'd get out of only iceblast/tgm/la/etc. And that are well performing DoT/debuff, low cooldown high damage spike attacks, a single AO that completely overshadows all others, and to some extend chaining of AOs.

kaizerin wrote: »

That is what I am referring to.
Aggressor, Aspect of the Bestial, Aspect of the Infernal, and Mental Discipline were forms that were placed in to replicate critical chance. These forms acted very differently than the MA forms as MA was expected to have Dex.

Come on alert these forms (with the exception of Mental Discipline) were changed because of the introduction of crit mods. Since anyone could have high crit chance without investing in dex, those forms were changed to be in line with the MA forms.

That is not what cryptic said.

kaiserin · June 2014

aiqa wrote: »

That is only true for very specific builds, and even so there are very specific melee builds that compete strongly...

I link this a lot: http://www.jackalgallery.com/co_images/mdpstest.jpg

I never said melee was underperforming, I believe range is overperforming. The only powers that are behind are TK Blades and Dragons Wrath (if you're facing down a regular target). This is only from a single target perspective, I do believe most melee aoe is questionable compared to range aoe.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean here, but I'll respond to how it looks to me...

Prior to on alert the only range form were Aspect of the Infernal and Mental Discipline. The best you could do with the other ranged sets was try and maintain enrage, but that meant investing in strength, which wasn't always the optimal choice. On Alert gave range a global buff with the introduction of Concentration. Ego scaling range damage was also introduced, another global buff. then there was the T0-T1 power buffs, that brought on TGM/Ice Blast/etc silliness. Ranged has been getting buffs time and time again, leaving melee in the dust.

Range should not be able to match melee DPS, or come anywhere close to it due to how the game punishes players (takes vastly more damage) for being in melee and rewards them for range. I believe you saw my post regarding how unfair it is in Gravitar, the majority of the game acts like this.

I'm not sure why you mentioned melee tanks, ranged tanks exist too and can put out just as much hurt.

That is not what cryptic said.

I'm not sure if you were around during that time to take part in those discussions, but that was indeed the case for the melee/hybrid forms. The entire explanation is not present in that log, pity.

flowcyto · June 2014

alexandrafreya wrote: »

Anatha@aqa is a HW build that actually does amazing well in PvP?

That asides and Personally I put alot of that down to Aqa just being really good at CO combat, HW damage is heavily lacking I think...not Earth lacking true, but much behind other powersets in terms of DPS use)

At least from the uses I have seen of it, Maybe I'm wrong or building things wrong...but I can barely get 3.2k DPS on out HW (compared with 5-7K DPS from other Melee builds)

Honestly and chances are I am wrong...Both Haymaker and Annihilate struggle DPS wise but seem to give little differences when used as tanks powers..I've always thought the knockback bonus is somehow just working out better when used for tanking then for DPS...Maybe it's A DR thing..I don't know..but it always seemed that way to me.

Again, I think its just the common perception that HW = slow, heavy attacks (which ofc is not a bad assumption at all, right?), and the thought that Annihilate should hit hard like Haymaker does against knock immune targets (though I admit it is hard to defend a 50% final dmg boost on.. well, any power atm... sans maybe some of the basic blasts that lack good special advs :X ).

The truth is somewhat counter-intuitive. Annihilate is actually quite better when tap-spammed on knock-immune targets since its bonus ramps down- not up. When done this way its base dps rises to the lvl of TGM, DE, and FC-tap (400-460 range), w/o counting other spells or debuffs.

Problems: a) the spell still roots you, b) still forces a KB on CC-able targets, c) looks silly when tap-spammed and even obscures other HW anims going off (like Eruption), and d) is tough to afford w/o using Unstoppable + Rec (a passive no one wants to use w/ a stat no DPS wants to have to gear for) .. or Defiance (which simply isn't for pure dps).

I can understand why people do want HW to get more love, but I think it just goes into a more basic issue of a number of melee builds needing to do weird, limiting, or not desirable things for proper energy management. Not that ranged builds can't have this problem (they def can), but it seems to be more abundant w/ melee builds. As far as lockdown, it does seem HW was singled out too much on that front. I actually expected most melee charge moves to have a lockdown or snare, and was surprised to find the contrary in this game. Not that I mind, ofc- melee wouldn't need that as a whole, but that does mean at least one self-rooting power in HW should be set free... to run in the wild (or through a big baddie, w/e).

As far as pvp, I'll admit there's prob even bigger discrepancies there, but that's not my area to really comment on.

Buff Melee Damage

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