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Offensive passives and their....issue
notyuu
Posts: 1,121 Arc User
After more than a little testing it's come to my attention that offensive passives are somewhat..completely hindered.
to iterate further, when you take an offensive passive you're going to be using a DPS build (unless you don't have a clue what you are doing) as a result you'll have statted yourself to the point that the form you pick gives a substantial boost to damage output per stack (11-13% for the damage type in question) meaning that once you get full stacks of that form your damage boost % is pushed up by 88-104% depending on stats...which is just a little less than the offensive passive. and here is where the issue comes in, the damage boost from the offensive passive starts off at such a high point that it gets diminished by the diminishing returns to the point of hardly adding on more than 1-2K damage, meaning said build can just take a defensive passive and still do about the same level of damage (i know there are a very few select cases where this doesn't apply) and as a result, for the most part an offensive passive is rather...redundant.
for example, i was messing about in the power house with unstoppable and enraged and haymakers.
with just enraged on i was hitting about 10K on crit
with just unstoppable on I was yet again hitting about 10K on crit
when i put both of them on I was doing 12K
bearing in mind my enraged was giving me 13% per stack and unstoppable was giving 119% in total i should be getting a 223% damage boost, but i was getting closer to
163% damage boost, which is a 60% loss in damage sue to diminishing returns.
so main way to fix this
Remove the diminishing returns from offensive passive, meaning a DPS build can hit much harder than a more defensive build.
or if you feel like being stupid you could reduce the effects forms have on damage boosting...but that would just make everyone hate you and gimp the community as a whole..which, need i remind you is a BAD thing.
also while you're poking around with the damage see if you can't make heavy weapons hit about 30% harder while costing 25% more energy.
to iterate further, when you take an offensive passive you're going to be using a DPS build (unless you don't have a clue what you are doing) as a result you'll have statted yourself to the point that the form you pick gives a substantial boost to damage output per stack (11-13% for the damage type in question) meaning that once you get full stacks of that form your damage boost % is pushed up by 88-104% depending on stats...which is just a little less than the offensive passive. and here is where the issue comes in, the damage boost from the offensive passive starts off at such a high point that it gets diminished by the diminishing returns to the point of hardly adding on more than 1-2K damage, meaning said build can just take a defensive passive and still do about the same level of damage (i know there are a very few select cases where this doesn't apply) and as a result, for the most part an offensive passive is rather...redundant.
for example, i was messing about in the power house with unstoppable and enraged and haymakers.
with just enraged on i was hitting about 10K on crit
with just unstoppable on I was yet again hitting about 10K on crit
when i put both of them on I was doing 12K
bearing in mind my enraged was giving me 13% per stack and unstoppable was giving 119% in total i should be getting a 223% damage boost, but i was getting closer to
163% damage boost, which is a 60% loss in damage sue to diminishing returns.
so main way to fix this
Remove the diminishing returns from offensive passive, meaning a DPS build can hit much harder than a more defensive build.
or if you feel like being stupid you could reduce the effects forms have on damage boosting...but that would just make everyone hate you and gimp the community as a whole..which, need i remind you is a BAD thing.
also while you're poking around with the damage see if you can't make heavy weapons hit about 30% harder while costing 25% more energy.
In all things, a calm heart must prevail.
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Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
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That or keep the roots and make them some of the heaviest hitters in the game. I'm fine with the slow/clunky playstyle of HW. It's supposed to be that way because you're wielding a giant weapon. The problem is the damage comes across like you're using a wet noodle. That's what happens when an AT is created and balanced around stacking two forms (back when Aggressor was a form), and one of the two is taken away with no compensation. I was pretty amazed the devs ignored the impact the Aggressor change had on HW, seeing how they designed the AT and all.
I'm too used to Berserk. Lol.
LOL this is nothing new. I was talking about this a year ago or so. The thing is that with an Offensive Passive the moment you slot it you are in DR with the dmg bonus. As such, any other dmg bonus coming from Conviction, Enrage, Active Offenses etc... will net you less and less bonuses.
The issues with Offensive Passives is more complex than you think. For starters there is an issue with it's scalability vs Defensive Passives. With an Offensive Passive when you fight enemy X and do Y dmg you do the same amount of dmg to ANY enemy you fight. On the other hand with a Defensive Passive you get a % reduction in dmg which means that the more dmg you take (higher lvl bosses etc..) the more a Defensive Passive benefits you.
Another issues is that with an Offensive Passive you have obviously less mitigation than with a Defensive Passive. As such, you will have to heal more which => drop in DPS.
Furthermore, another problem is that the DMG role has the 20-25% dmg bonus tied to the ROLE and not to the Passive unlike Defensive Passives. This means that you can be in Hybrid with a Defensive Passive and reap all the benefits of a Defensive Passive. YOU CAN"T do that with an Offensive Passive since the actual boost in dmg does not come from the passive but from the ROLE!!!
IMO Offensive Passives are only good if you PvP and look for the 1 shot cheese build or want to see how high you want to get a spike to. In PvE Defensive Passives are vastly superior. Even in PvP if you can't be killed or take too long to be killed ppl tend to avoid you.
also I "love" how almost everyone is missing the main issue here...you know, the offensive passives getting rendered useless by the damage % boost on forms due to diminishing returns being stupid.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
I support this. I like the idea of being able to one-shot even more enemies, and burn down alert bosses in five seconds
Currently, between DPS role and Offensive Passive, the average increase in damage output over a tank build in hybrid role is 40% (with both having a form). How much higher should that be?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Stupidly smart idea right here.
Deliciously nutritious!
well foxi, you say it's 40% but me and flare have been running the maths and it's closer to the 15-20% damage increase range depending on stats and specs, meaning overall it's not overly work taking as a build with an offensive passive is not gaining much in the way of damage as one with a defensive build will still be coming "uncomfortably" close to the damage levels that you would get from taking an offensive passive, resulting in more than a few people choosing to lose that extra 1-2 K damage in exchange for being able to take a lot more punishment before they go down.
that...just might work...if the devs can bother to add new powers.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Although I dislike the implementation of the FF dps dmg DR, it mainly stems from devaluing things like AOs for dps too much, while there's no great penalty for rolling AOs/ADs, stacking CDR, stacking heal cds, or stacking Con/HP. The passive dmg DR itself is necessary to make sure committed dps builds aren't going even more over the top. Problem is other areas of building and gearing are not being fairly balanced along w/ it.
That's the main reason I'd be against a defensive form at this time- there aren't enough checks and balances w/ regards to defenses as there is already in place for passive dmg boosts. Sure, DPS could take it to get more survival, but so could tanks or hybrids to become even more un-killable. And if we restrict defensive forms to DPS roles, then we're just further homogenizing everyone, and I dun really see the point in all that.
Whoever designed the ATs in general pretty much had no idea what they were doing
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
I'm not opposed to the general idea, and yea it'd have to work w/ the same DR efficiency as the passive dmg boosts do for DPS, but to me the game just has to be better balanced before its implemented. Defenses and heals in general don't have a strict imposed 'DR' like passive dmg does. There are some natural/decaying DRs, but its implementation is spotty and not to the same extent.
One thing they did introduce w/ CoS was a 'hybrid' passive.. though CoS is very niche in what it does. Something that could work w/ the current system is just introducing more true hybrid passives- kinda like AoPM but avail for all roles. Just as rough examples of what I mean:
Hybrid Passive A: 25-30% all dmg resist, 30-35% all dmg boost
Hybrid Passive B: 35% dodge/avoid, 15% all dmg boost and 8% +crit/severity
Hybrid Passive C: 40% of Regen's healing, 40% of AoPM's stat boost (both self-only)
etc
Only reason I'd suggest that over defensive toggles atm is cause passives can cover more area and already have better established checks and balances in place. I'm not really sure they'd be necessary, but if ya want to expand options in each role a bit, they couldn't hurt I guess.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
first up you've kinda missed the problem by a long shot, the main problem is that the DPSs atm feel less like dps and more like a slightly harder hitting, but much squisher tank...as the aggro reduction don't do jack, unless there are uber tanks on the team.
and secondly, no matter what you do no DPS will be as restaint as a tank, meaning you can cherry pick all you want but you'll never beat the outright durabaility of a tank, which just so happens to be hitting just a tiny bit less than you are despite them being at the very least twice, if not three times harder to kill than you are, which raises the question as to why you would use an offesive passive and make a specilised build so that you don't get crushed in 0.3 seconds by the boss when you can make a tank build that hits just a little less than the "dps" but can take a lot more punishment from all sources before going down.
so to summerise, the aggro reduction on the ranged damge forms don't do jack and "jack of all trades" tank build will do nearly the same damage but have much higher durabaility than a custom tailored DPS build. this is kinda what needs fixing....like...badly.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
And by the same note, would it not be true that tanks are just DPS with slightly more survivability and less damage as non-CC aggro don't do jack? Unless you can bring in real numbers, we'll just be playing back and forth with semantics.
Bringing in some of Kaiserin's numbers, her tank clocks in at 4.5k DPS, while her Ranged DPS does 7.8k, so the DPS character does about 73% more DPS, which is, I think, a far cry from "slightly more"
And you can also do survivability-oriented offensive passive builds. I'll also cite my own examples of offensive passives tanking or soloing just fine here in Gravitar and here in Andrith.
In these cases, what would be the benefit of going with a defensive passive when I can do it faster with an offensive passive? If survivability is already no issue, adding more survivability would just be a waste - there's no point in having twice the EHP if you never drop below 50%. It just means 50% of your EHP is never going to be used and you'd have been better off getting more damage. Especially if the gain is up to 73% more.
Its not that Offensive Passive aren't performing good enough, its that using a support and tank passive can do just as much damage since the damage buffs they use from other powers push their damage up to an offensive passive's damage level. All thanks to the Offense/Defense loop.
The only builds that don't suffer from this are ATs because that wall is higher for them.
With Justice gear all you really need to power the Off/Def loop into DRs is the Justice gear itself.
AoPM will end up pretty far behind for DPS. To stack Con for X-icator, you'll end up sacrificing additive bonus from your Form so it'll end up close to the typical bonus for an offensive passive character. With Justice Gear taking the average character to 400+ Offense already, using Juggernaut and Con stacking to boost it to 800+ with Juggernaut is only a gain of ~8% on the Offense/Severity layer.
Assuming equal Strength and a melee Form, you're behind by ~120% additive damage compared to an Offensive passive, which works out to a loss of around 12% real damage, so AoPM is already slightly behind an offensive passive. Then throw in the multiplicative 25% bonus and the offensive passive pulls further ahead.
AoPM with Juggernaut or Force of Will + 6th Sense is great for a balance of survivability and damage though. The main benefit is really PvP, where you gain a lot of survivability without sacrificing too much damage.
And where did you get these numbers from? you just taking a stab in the dark at the DPSes or did you actually sit down and work em out..or do you have a paraser or something?
Well my "tank" (they are a tank in every sence of word but role) usually pulls the aggro through raw DPS, only losing it to a player in tank role that is half decent or a high end DPS, the fact that i'm out DPSing most peoples DPS as a tank is not a good sign for the offensive passive capabalties.
Well i'm gonna see if i can't dig up a DPS calculator or plugin or something so I can get more precise than the rough guesses, I'll get back to you if i ever find something or do the maths and get more precise numbers.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
from this thread: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=228351&page=4
Kaiz has a parsing program
The 4.5k is using a very strong single target build (shredded + massacre spam). The 7.8k figure I think comes from a Ice/Fire dps build that also uses Mental Storm, which when optimized is prob one of the most brokenly OP ones out there for dps. The same gear level using an optimized build that has a normal blast as its main attack, like Eldritch blast, would prob be closer to the 5-6k range- if ya wanted to ref an attack that's on the weaker end of the balancing spectrum.
I ended up tanking on my damn Grimoire when I was leveling in Alerts sometimes, just cause of primal sigils and the hybrid role's lack of -threat modifiers. Thankfully that's less an issue at lvl 40 vs. optimized players, but its not too hard to pull threat in this game w/o being in the tank role. Bulwark, CC/CS advs, picking powerful/OP dps moves, defense combo, and fighting alongside non-optimized or low lvl players can all get you there.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
That says little when there are dps builds in the same thread that do 5k and 6k dps. If we pick the 5k melee dps you could say the dps character does 11% more damage, which is very low.
I would like to see the DR be removed from all damage bonus myself, and lower the bonus from forms and maybe from passives.
having ALL the damage bonus DRs removed would be overkill, and honestly, make things worse, hence why I specified that they only be removed for offensive passives.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Well I've done the maths (it was annoying) on the results of 5 tests per char testing both my tank and DPS, each tests lasted 1 min, i then took the results from the 5 tests for that char and averaged out the numbers.
DPS results
Tank: 2765.71
DPS: 3826.01
as you can see, the difference is rather...small, which brings to light the issues of defensive passive vs offensive passive, the tank build has a total of 202% damage Resistance to all forms of damage from both def stat and passive, the DPS build has 74% total damage resistance, 174% electrical resistance and 100% resistance against energy damage, making them much easier to kill, despite only doing 1.1K more damage per second.
Both builds are outfitted with a DU core, r7 mods and legion gear (yes, i dusted off arona's legion gear and put it on for the test) but for even more solid data i'm gonna run the sames tests on the same char with the same gear and build, just going to be changing the passive and toggling the form, i'l update once done.
UPDATE
Testing done, same method as before, 5 tests with each config, and then averaging out the numbers, the build in question is a 389 STR 321 CON 73 REC might build.
Test results
unstoppable + enraged + melee role = 2771.15
unstoppable + enraged + brid role = 2375.74
Enraged + melee role = 2279.52
Enraged + brid role = 2372.01
Unstoppable + melee role = 2608.92
Unstoppable + brid role = 2029.82
Defaince + enraged + brid role = 2082.88
Defiance + enraged + tank role = 1966.57
Defiance + brid role = 2176.75
Defiance + tank role = 1686.98
From the results we can see that the maxium DPS configuration (blue) outputs less than 1K more than the tank configuration (yellow)
meaning offensive passive provide a moot benefit when it comes to doing damage, and unlike the last DPS comparasion this one didn't have a sapphire dragon eye to boost the DPS on the DPS build up a little, it only had the same stats, gear and specs as the defensive one.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Second, your Defiance without Enrage pulls bigger numbers than your Defiance with Enrage, so I think something is wrong there.
Third, from your own results, the DPS does 40.9% more DPS. The tank's 202% Damage Resist works out to 33% damage taken, while the DPS' 74% works out to 57% damage taken. 57% / 33% = 72% difference, and that's apparently using a non-Melee Form.
With a dedicated melee form like Id Mastery you'd get 74% + 25% = 99%, which works out to 50% damage taken, and 50/33 would be a 51% difference, and 51% vs 40.9% is close enough to balanced.
Now, since you're using Defiance's best-case performance, i.e. full stacks - a condition that cannot be assumed 100% of the time, I think it's fair enough to cherry-pick a scenario for the offensive form too. Supposing instead of Electric Form you use say, Ice Form and tank Frosty with Devour Essence, you'd be able to bring the offensive Form's full 174% to bear. That 174% would work out to 36.4% damage taken. Compared to your 202%, the defensive passive takes 10% more damage. And unlike Defiance, that's always-on defense, not susceptible to buildup issues. At the same time it will do around 40.9% more damage, based on your numbers. I think that's a very worthwhile tradeoff.
If you want to talk about unequitable, hop on PTS, replace your Vigi with Armadillo secs, change passive to AoPM and flip one Str mod over to Con, flip the Rec mod to Con too then look at the damage resistance your Defense gives you, and add 25% from Armadillo set. Assuming you have Juggernaut/Aggressive Stance/Best Defense of course. I would say that AoPM puts Defiance out of business long before it gives offensive passives a run for their money.
Finally, I am quite surprised that you accused me of "just taking a stab in the dark at the DPSes" when I linked the thread with screenshots of the actual parse to you :eek: I thought only politicians did that!
She actually has a DPS build that does 3.7k. Should I then say that DPS-oriented characters do less damage than tanks? If you're picking best case for one end of the comparison, you should pick best case for the other end as well.
If you look at other means of increasing dps beyond passive dmg%, they are more kept in-check: crit and severity have an imposed DR, -resist is harder to obtain and doesn;t apply evenly to all target types, offense doesn't multiply w/ severity and also has a DR.
Anyways, 1-min tests aren't very long; 5 mins total is also not too much. High variance could explain the Defiance w/ and w/o Enrage numbers, but it does seem off given that.
The Enrage + melee role avg is also lower than the Enrage + hybrid role avg, and there's a >30% diff between the hybrid and melee avg for Unstoppable alone. Yeah, the data is prob just in need of longer or more tests.
Well, technically you'd compare using the same build, so that Ice/CDR stacking spec as full dps vs. one w/ a defensive passive in tank role (lack of cold snap prob wouldn't matter much since its not charging ice blast). I wouldn't know the numbers on that, but it prob be a lil bit over the massacre one- in the 5.2-5.5k range if I had to guess (and for a tank, that'd be positively absurd).
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I noticed that too and ran the numbers on averaging again, it still came back higher, my guess would be a couple of lucky crits pushed it over.
First up the only time I don't have full stacks is when I'm not in combat, as they build rather quickly and stay up, and secondly the point isn't that DPS is squishy...they are always squishy unless you tailor them to fight one type of enemy, the point here is that the forms are pushing damage up so high that offensive passives are not adding very much to the overall damage, and as a result they feel like a squishier, slightly harder hitting tank
first up, I like to keep my builds simple, and themed, aka no franken builds, seocndly i use defaince becasue of the energy it gives me when i get hit, and thridi already tried AoPM and I found it rather.....distasteful.
well when I clicked the link I got a great big shiny 404.....hence why I accused you of taking a stab in the dark, I could not see your proof...and I tried again before making this reply and I still got a 404.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
I am pretty sure you don't start at full stacks when Frosty's first dagger hits.
They are actually not squishy in most encounters. What content in the game needs a tanky build? Gravi? Covered by Stormbringer. Frosty? Covered by Stormbringer. Andrith? Roughly 50-50 Lightning/Darkness, so covered by Stormbringer too. Open world bosses? Use a vehicle. Is there any other content in the game that can actually kill you?
And I'm not even going to talk about Dodge-oriented WotW builds, Defense-stacking Id Mastery builds and stealth-stacking Shadowform builds here.
The advantage of offensive passives is that they unlock the only multiplicative damage bonus in the game - the role bonus. The advantage of Forms is the second energy unlock. In that respect, they each have their purpose.
Of course, you could take an offensive passive and use Compassion form to get survivability via Devour Essence and double bubbles if the additive damage means so little.
The root of the problem here IMO is redundancy in role-defining mechanics. We have superstats giving an additive bonus due to role choice, we have the passive giving an additive bonus, we have forms and we have spec trees and we have AOs and other random stuff that no one cares about because they're additive, like Circle of Ebon Destruction. Trouble with that design is, every role wants to do damage, not just DPS.
So suppose you want high damage. You superstat Strength with Enrage and WotW. Your Strength gives additive bonus by itself. Then it gives additive bonus as a superstat. Then it gives additive bonus again for Enrage. And it gives more additive bonus with WotW. Your Strength is, in effect, quad-dipping. And if Cryptic doesn't rein that in, we will have people one-shotting Rampage bosses.
So they introduce a band-aid: Diminishing returns. But now the DPS don't have much of an advantage, so they put another band-aid: Multiplicative role bonus. But Offense still got diminished twice, so they put a band-aid on top of the band-aid by putting Offense in the crit severity layer. And that's where we're at today. Sitting on a pile of shaky foundations held together by band-aids.
The way the game is designed, damage comes from 6 sources: Role, Passive, Form, Superstat, Offense, Strength/Ego while resistance comes from 3: Passive, Defense and Role. So additive damage will always make a smaller contribution and they need the Damage role's 25% bonus band-aid
Might want to write a support ticket to PWE. It links to the same forums we are using for this very thread and works for me on both Windows and Android, and apparently everyone else on the forum so far too.
I'm suggesting taking the diminishing returns off offensive passives ONLY, if they took it off stats, form and role scaling it would be over powered as all hell, and no matter what way you cut it a tank will always be more durable than a DPS, but not always as tough, before you get finiky, durable has to be worn down slowly, tough can take a few hits, but if they break they are squishy underneath, unlike a durable one, which is solid all the way to the bottom...oh, also I managed to pull up the page on my 3DS...stupid toaster and it's stupid pickyness.
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Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
I'm really not sure about that. DPS-oriented AoPM builds with Devour Essence and ~700 Defense come out ahead in survivability due to their heals and Int bonus reducing cooldown on Unbreakable + MD phasing.
And you still haven't answered my question - twice now. What content in the game does so much damage to you that you need to sacrifice 40% of your DPS, i.e. 40% of your farming speed to slot a defensive passive for?
The way things are right now, the defensive passive build may or may not be more survivable, but if the supposed extra defense has no practical benefit, all you're doing is sacrificing content clearing speed for nothing. In that respect it doesn't matter how much more survivable the defensive passive is, you're still not getting much out of it. 40% more DPS based on your numbers is huge.
Rotating MD and Unbreakable near constantly is the cancer of CO..seriously it's stupid, also if you're a DPS then unbreakable won't do jack for you as your damage will rapidly diminish the amount of asorbation that gets restored when you take a hit, causes it to break rather quickly, also..eww AoPM
the only real content that needs that much defense is taking on bosses, because simply put not everyone can afford to stack a trillion and one con onto the str spec (doing so has the same result as a defensive passive) because their builds are more...finiky, requiring a very spefic setup to actually function to any significant level of effectiveness...trying to make energy sword work with LR was a nightmare.
also while i'm losing a little (<2 seconds) clearing speed per group farmed I am gaining overall long term speed as i don't have to stop attacking every few groups to heal up, as a result, with a defensive passive you end up equalizing out at about the same time as an offensive one, if not a little quicker in certain places, also being able to take more than 1-2 big hits before you fall over dead is rather nice, which once again is where the defensive passives come in.
but all in all, I think an offensive passive should double your damage output at the very least....or maybe, just maybe they make the aux effects on them stronger (increasing eleteric form energy gain, targeting computers crit boost....and so on)
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
i get as much as 30% per stack from the toggle.everyone should be building at the 16-20% range per stack thats 128%-160% at 8 stacks 240% on some of my concept toons.
i do however agree that the other offensive passives should all be as good as quarry maybe if they all boosted stats based on a second stat
its on my single statted INT toon
Ok then. Lets try this. Run Elite TT up to Valerian Scarlet, solo, with none of the things you mentioned - no Juggernaut in Str spec, no Unbreakable/MD rotation and while we're at it, how about no Legacy Devices like Necrullitic Elixir and Eruption too? Post a vid and and then we can analyze exactly how much faster Defensive passives are at soloing content.
Pre-crit and dodge nerf, a ranged DPS Quarry build would clear it in around 12m 30s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp-4FWeYNUs
If you're saying the speed is almost the same then the point about offensive passives needing a boost should be moot - they are almost as fast in solo and they do more DPS in a group. So why would they need to do more?
I'll take you're challenge right after i get a computer that doesn't have to use 97% of its processing power to run CO on minium (yay....11 year old computer), but more importantly what does that have to do with anything? sure the DPS can kill the individual mobs faster but the tank can survive attacking the group, and thusly kill it in one go, where as the DPS can not, so in a basically offensive passives are kinda useless where they stand atm when it comes to damage boosting terms.
The only real thing you gain out of them is their AUX effects, which, while nice are far from sufficent enough to make up for the lack of damage increase given by the offesnive passives.
so in a nutshell, eaither
A: Remove diminishing returns from offensive passives, thusly increasing their damage output to make up for the defense.
B: Make the aux effects on the offensive passive have a stronger effect to make up for the lack of high end damage increase and defense.
Also assuming that I would lower myself to use the MD/unbreakable rotation is just mean, on top of that also assuming that I use devices, which I don't, sure I've got them, but for the most part I sell em off or gift em to people, with the rest gathering dust or thrown out, for one very simple reason, if you're not an AT and you NEED a device for your build then there is something very, very wrong.
One last thing, you don't stack str and con on a DPS unless it's melee...but if it's melee it does barely more damage than the same build but with a defensive passive..usually gaining less than 1K in damage increases, and ranged isn't much better, but at least the aux effects on those ones are more...well...potent, but still far from sufficent.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
I think I addressed that already
Based on what you said, both offensive and defensive passives will clear content at the same speed solo, and we've established that offensive passives do 40% more DPS, so they would be more desirable in a party once tanking is covered. So that's balanced already is it not?
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There are only three things in this game that I team up for, and they are, TT, Nem con and alerts/rampages, and even in them the damage done by the DPS is barely noteworthy as the tank is doing roughly the same so tusly I usually end up doing not very much or brining my tank and forging ahead with little diffcuility, and yes, i'm aware that an offensive passive does 40% more damage, but 40% more just isn't cutting it, not even close to cutting it in the damage difference from a tank, it's like saying you can lose 4 stone by cutting your leg off, sure it'd be true, but it wouldn't be worth it the same can be said of offensive passives, you lose a massive chunk of suriveability in exchange for a meager increase in damage output in a small secondry effect which in most cases is barely noticeable, and in the few it is notable it's often rather trivial in nature.
Bottom line of the issue is, the offensive passives ask you to lose too much suriviability in exchange for too little of a damage boost.
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Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Hey! Stormbringer is actually very tanky against all three of its (very common) damage types. It's almost like a CoH Scrapper secondary in that respect.
In fact, quite a few offensive passives actually get enough of a defensive bonus for the needs of an offensive toon: Stormbringer, Quarry, Way of the Warrior, Id Form, to a lesser extent Night Warrior. Possibly Kinetic Manipulation and Earth Form as well. Targeting Computer is borderline as the lock on takes so long to activate.
All Unstoppable really needs an extra 25% damage resists thrown on, but I wouldn't object to that resist and the knock resist increasing while charging an attack ala Bluhman's suggestion.
I don't really know what to do with the other offensive passives though.
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I don't believe you. Post a parse.
Not going to address the rest of the post since it hinges on this one claim.
I'd go the opposite. There's simply not enough in this game dangerous enough to make dedicated tanks necessary, especially when almost all of the tanks in the game right now just don't do it right. That's not to say that when a proper tank is present it's not incredibly welcome, mind. However, considering most content in game is a dps race, I'd prefer if John Q Pugly had an offensive passive as a default, since at least then odds are good that he'll be contributing damage worth talking about. I know I can't count on him to tank.
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Tank A.K.A Arona
DPS A.K.A Tikaia
I censored the names of the other two that showed up with i was parsing due to respecting their privacy, and I didn't make it a fancy cropped one because i'm lazy
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Heh, those are just two toons on training dummies, not "TT, Nemcon, or a Rampage alert" where one of the toons is in a tanking role and the other DPS.
For what it's worth, I have a database of stats from over a hundred Fire & Ice runs, an encounter that requires a dedicated tank (including several with Arona), and the tanks don't do nearly as much damage as the DPS.
EDIT: Just because I kind of enjoy this kind of data mining sometimes, I did a query. Out of 147 Fire & Ice encounters I logged, the tank did 418DPS on average, the high player DPS for those encounters averaged was 1203. A pretty big difference. Here's a screen grab of the query.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Well i personaly find the parsing rather dull and more than a little tedious, so i just got the most basic one I could, hitting a regen dummy for 5 mins stright, plus they asked me to post a parse and I did...after bothering my self to actually do two.
and before you ask, no i don't really know why her DPS is so damn high for a defiance build, I think something might have broke, hell wouldn't surprise me given the state of the game.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Ofc, if you mean to highlight that worrying about survival greatly impacts dps in itself, well.. yes, yes it should! Not many PvE encounters in CO do that to tanks, though :X
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Yeah, it's one of the few encounters where you actually need a tank to tank. In that respect I think it's a good example of the difference in roles, or how a toon that actually specializes in being a good primary tank does have to sacrifice DPS.
If the question is whether an offensive passive vs a defensive passive can do comparable damage when they're just hitting dummies and/or neither is tanking, then yeah there's probably not going to be nearly as much difference.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming