From Punches To Armor (Dual Passive Build)

thearkady · April 2014

I've been trying to cook up a dual passive build for a character concept. Basically, a hero that starts out being a fairly straightforward beat the mooks into submission crimefighter, but who eventually decides they bloody well need a proper suit of indestructible power armor when facing the big guns.
(Yes, basically a character with a development that might be fun to RP taking forever to level through stupid missions, rather than shooting for fourty overnight in Alerts.)

Basically, the first passive needs to be offensive, as much a glass cannon as possible, and the build should remain kind of workable at level 40 (nobody wants to put on heavy armor just to beat up a couple of mooks in a UNITY daily).

The second passive will be defensive, trying to get a highly resilient character. The first should be melee ideally, the second use effin' big guns and ideally be able to tank at level 40.

Now, I have come up with a build that actually looks kind of not too shabby, except the PA survivability at 40 doesn't look quite as high as I'd like.

The basic approach:
DEX SS with defensive focus to up survivability with Dodge even in PA mode
All attacks feed Overdrive
Meant to use build-swapping between a MA and PA version, obviously

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: First Puinch, then Blast

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Unleashed
Level 6: Covert Ops Training
Level 9: Survival Training
Level 12: Acrobat
Level 15: Coordinated
Level 18: Shooter
Level 21: Academics

Powers:
Level 1: Vicious Strikes
Level 1: One Hundred Hands (Rank 2)
Level 6: Way of the Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Parry (The Elusive Monk)
Level 14: Shuriken Storm (Rank 2) (it feeds Overdrive... oh well, the stars of justice!)
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 20: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Micro Munitions (Rank 2, Challenging Strikes)
Level 26: Overdrive
Level 29: Shoulder Launcher (Rank 2)
Level 32: Concussor Beam (Rank 2)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 38: I would like an active offense, but I feel another heal may be called for

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flag Speed (Rank 2, Rank 3, Impact) (see Shuriken Storm)
Level 35: Jet Boots

Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Evasion (2/2) (focus of defense to complement the PA build)
Dexterity: Quick Reflexes (3/3)focus of defense to complement the PA build)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3) (most attacks are AoE... though I likely should drop 1-2 for Rush of Battle)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

Anyone have any thoughts on how to improve this? (Other than reversing Warden and Vindicator, whhich come to think about it seems like a good idea.)

EDIT: Oh, yes. I forgot, but odds are it's obvious anyways: gearing STR/EGO and actually using gear swapping by build is the plan here.

flowcyto · April 2014

So, just going back to the basics of the concept- a squishier MA dps for one part of the build, a tanky PA for the other part.

Oddly enough, you wanted a true glass cannon for the MA part, but ya chose the highest overall defensive template ya can get for a dps role (WotW + BCR/RR + Con SS). I mean, he's still no tank in MA form, but he's not really a glass cannon either (not that its a bad thing in terms of gameplay, there's honestly no good non-RP reason to make a glass cannon in CO when you have FF choices avail).

Unfortunately, neither of the dodge/avoid specs in Dex PSS are worth giving up Expose Weakness and Deadly Aim for. I'd also drop Modified Gear in Vindicator since Offense from gear tends to be pretty low regardless (def is outshone by that from The Best Defense).

One possibility ya might want to consider: making ur PA concept a laser sword build instead of a typical ranged PA build- then ya can get more overlap w/ the MA build since they're both melee (laser knight or elusive monk for both, Rush for both, lunge + MSA for both, etc).

Here's how I'd structure ur original build:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Unleashed
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Impresario
Level 12: Quick Recovery
Level 15: Relentless
Level 18: Physical Conditioning
Level 21: Martial Focus

Powers:
Level 1: Power Bolts
Level 1: Overdrive
Level 6: Concussor Beam (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Defiance
Level 11: Form of the Tempest
Level 14: Mini Gun (U-238 Rounds, Challenging Strikes)
Level 17: Micro Munitions (Rank 2)
Level 20: Masterful Dodge
Level 23: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 26: Way of the Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Dragon Uppercut (Rank 2)
Level 32: Shuriken Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3, Strong Arm)
Level 35: One Hundred Hands (Rank 2, Rank 3, Ghostly Strikes)
Level 38: Energy Shield (Phalanx Defense System)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flag Speed (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Jet Boots (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Specializations:
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Brush It Off (2/2)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

Defiance energy helps fuel PA toggles, while DU's Rush helps fuel MA's 100Hands- w/ OD ofc helping both. I made the block more relevant to PA since that's meant to be the tankier build.

Also gave ya a ranged end builder cause, from my experience w/ the Night Avenger AT, a melee end builder w/ a partial ranged build sucks butt to work with.

thearkady · April 2014

I think you didn't quite get the first paragraph of my original posting. In essence: the build is supposed to be levelable, starting out with the "squishy" melee build.

Your suggestion completely fails to even try and meet that criterium; it decidedly starts out as PA instead. So it's not really a viable alternative at all.

Said criterium explains a lot of the shortcomings of my original concept:
1. EB from MA. Otherwise, no One Hundred Hands at level 1.
2. WotW is the only passive that'll get it to Shuriken Storm at level 14. (No, hold on, Night Warrior should work, but I specifically don't want a stealthy character.)
3. Same goes for Parry, incidentally. Which sucks, because Elusive Monk doesn't help the PA build one bit.

The only alternative I see here is to change the MA build so it doesn't even feed Overdrive. Thundering Kicks + Dragon Kick open up the possibilty for a ranged EB; if I try to stay thematic and use an EB that's not way more PA than MA, I still don't see a way around WotW.

So basically, I'd get a build where I specifically ignore the reasons to take kicks in the first place (i.e. dodge/avoidance) to not go even more survivable. Main benefit: I can ditch the MA block for something that's still okay with the MA build and not completely stupid for the PA one. Like this:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Kick First, Blow Things Up Later

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Unleashed
Level 6: Covert Ops Training
Level 9: Acrobat
Level 12: Impresario
Level 15: Coordinated
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 21: Field Ops Training

Powers:
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Way of the Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 14: Dragon Kick (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Micro Munitions (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 23: Shoulder Launcher (Rank 2, Bunker Buster)
Level 26: Overdrive
Level 29: Retaliation (Punitive Pummeling)
Level 32: Concussor Beam (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 38: Lock N Load

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flag Speed (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Jet Boots (Rank 2)

Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Evasion (2/2)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (1/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

It's... hmm. Maybe I need to look at using Might instead of MA, but that set seems even less useful for trying to be squishy.

flowcyto · April 2014

thearkady wrote: »

I think you didn't quite get the first paragraph of my original posting. In essence: the build is supposed to be levelable, starting out with the "squishy" melee build.

Your suggestion completely fails to even try and meet that criterium; it decidedly starts out as PA instead. So it's not really a viable alternative at all.

Okay, but your wording in the first paragraph doesn't make clear that you literally mean progression of concept through level instead of general theme, since for RP reasons you could build that sort of concept in any situation (as most missions have you start out fighting henchies, later the big guys). I was going off the theme reasons- you start out as an MA, more regular hero, then later on face harder foes in w/e situation and decide to 'power up'.

Its also simply because leveling doesn't place any demand on having a tougher build later on (if anything leveling can get easier as you go), so its not natural/common to ask for this sort of thing.

Anyways its not that big a deal since most of the powers can be re-ordered. If ya want a unarmed basic attack that doesn't make you too tanky in MA form, ya can settle on Beatdown in Might instead of TK. You don't have any non-PA powers working w/ OD, though- so ya could replace LnL (not its position, just as a power slot) for 100Hands if you wanted to keep that concept going. Here's how the early powers could work based on what you chose:

Powers:
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Beatdown
Level 6: Retaliation
Level 8: Way of the Warrior
Level 11: Form of the Tempest

Also if you are keeping OD, I would consider changing Int SS for Rec SS- at least for the sake of the PA part of the build.

thearkady · April 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

Powers:
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Beatdown
Level 6: Retaliation
Level 8: Way of the Warrior
Level 11: Form of the Tempest

Hmm, there's a thought. That'd let me go Unstoppable for the offensive passive, and could use Uppercut at L14. Not bad, and it wouldn't completely break immersion to retcon the build order at high levels to get Dragon Uppercut instead.

Now that's worth taking a closer look at!

flowcyto · April 2014

Well, the other nice thing about Unstoppable (at least for your goals) is that it will help make the melee build squishy :X

It also means DU/Uppercut can give extra energy since Unstoppable synergizes w/ knocks- then ya may not need OD's energy. I know ya wanted OD to work w/ both concepts, but its not a crime if one part doesn't really need it as long as the other def does.

Hope it all works out for ya. Linking 2 disparate concepts (ranged tank & melee dps) into one FF template isn't easy, but I think ya can make it happen.

bravehoptoad · April 2014

I know you're not asking for costume advice, but I saw a costume somewhere on this forum that might fit your concept. I can't remember whose idea it was, but it looked something like this:

Costume_bravehoptoad_NoName_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_438073694_zpsdf09907d.jpg

Costume_bravehoptoad_NoName_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_438073694_zpsdf09907d.jpg

thearkady · April 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

Linking 2 disparate concepts (ranged tank & melee dps) into one FF template isn't easy, but I think ya can make it happen.

The funny thing is, I think the biggest problem is actually the super stats. CON is pretty essential for going with Invulnerability (which I prefer over Defiance concept-wise - armor doesn't get harder because people hit it more, after all), whereas if counteracts the idea of squishy melee. I suppose I could go for STR instead and heavily gear for CON in the PA build, but that'd further drag down the damage of the oh-so-big guns.

Beyond that, I think my trouble comes mostly from wanting a levelling build - with a build to retcon into at 40, I'm sure there'd be a lot more options.

thearkady · April 2014

I've gone back to the original build and thought about it a bit more. Some insights that went into the redesign:
1. I'm a dumbass, taking BCR earlier lets me switch out Parry for any other block.
2. Why did I bother with STR from talents? Better get EGO, it fuels all attacks except OHH.
3. I like INT SSS for thematic reasons (build a suit of PA and all), but definitely needed more REC.

The result is:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Punch First, Shoot Questions Later

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Soldier
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Coordinated
Level 12: Shooter
Level 15: Impresario
Level 18: Negotiator
Level 21: Wordly

This stacks enough EGO and REC that both should be about 70ish at level 40 using one secondary or mod slot. That's definitely fine for EGO... but is it enough for REC? If not, I'll have to do REC SSS after all.

Powers:
Level 1: Vicious Strikes
Level 1: One Hundred Hands (Rank 2, Rank 3, Ghostly Strikes)
Level 6: Way of the Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 14: Shuriken Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Micro Munitions (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Overdrive
Level 26: Retaliation (picked because it doesn't break theme on either build)
Level 29: Mini Gun (Rank 2, U-238 Rounds, Challenging Strikes) (it's this or Shoulder Launcher, hard choice for me)
Level 32: Concussor Beam (Rank 2)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 38: Lock N Load (or another heal?)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flag Speed (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Jet Boots (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Evasion (2/2)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2) (not sure about this, tooltip suggests the return is pretty decent)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (1/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

ajanus · April 2014

I wouldn't bother gearing outside your 3 superstats. Maybe a secondary Rec piece. Reason is, you really are only working with half a character in each aspect and any stat you choose to "add on" will take away from your superstat choices, which will limit each of your aspects even further...I might even SSS Rec over Int, for Overdrive and so I wouldn't have to gear outside my superstats.

thearkady · April 2014

Still playing around with ideas. I really hate how taking a ranged EB locks me into using either Thundering Kicks (which is really a dodge tank attack) or Beatdown (which looks too Hulk Smash for my tastes). It's particularly bad trying to get the melee build first...

It occured to me that Energy Shield may be the best block. It can be a wrist gadget for the melee build, and an even better energy shield on the PA thanks to an Advantage that makes it better for PA only.

Going REC SS eliminates the problem of lacking energy in the MA build and should make Overdrive work overtime. Get a bit of INT on the side for reduced costs/CD, too.

This way, I wind up with this:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Punch First, Shoot Questions Later

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Soldier
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Negotiator
Level 12: Coordinated
Level 15: Impresario
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 21: Healthy Mind

Powers:
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Rank 2)
Level 6: Way of the Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 14: Dragon Kick (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Micro Munitions (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 20: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Energy Shield (Phalanx Defense System)
Level 26: Mini Gun (Rank 2, U-238 Rounds, Challenging Strikes)
Level 29: Overdrive
Level 32: Concussor Beam (Rank 2)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 38: Lock N Load

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flag Speed (Rank 2)
Level 35: Jet Boots (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Evasion (2/2)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (1/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

I'm pretty sure that at high levels, the PA build should be fine drawing aggro with the two CS attacks - but I'm sceptical about whether it has enough defense/healing to survive it. It might be better to toss LNL for another heal - anyone have thoughts on that?

The MA build and level 40... I guess it will be able to do UNITY dailies, but I have my doubts about anything much beyond that. Like could it, for the sake of argument, even contribute meaningfully in a Smash alert.

Still, I'm at a complete loss how I could possibly improve the MA build without going back to a MA EB. Does anyone see any real option?

flowcyto · April 2014

Well, one option is to change the build mid-way, so you start leveling full MA, but at latter levels when you have room to start mixing in PA stuff you re-order everything to keep the same MA stuff, but a ranged EB.

Like, start out as this:

Powers:
Level 1: Righteous Fists
Level 1: One Hundred Hands
Level 6: Way of the Warrior
Level 8: Form of the Tempest
Level 11: Bountiful Chi Resurgence
Level 14: Overdrive
Level 17: Dragon Kick

then, at lvl 20 or a bit later, ya could change ur build to this as you go:

Powers:
Level 1: Power Bolts
Level 1: Energy Shield
Level 6: Overdrive
Level 8: Way of the Warrior
Level 11: Form of the Tempest
Level 14: One Hundred Hands
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence
Level 20: Dragon Kick
Level 23: Invulnerability
Level 26: Micro Munitions
Level 29: Concussor Beam
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Mini Gun
Level 38:

So upto the mid-20s, you'd still be mostly MA. This ofc would mean putting some PA stuff early on (here, it'd really just be the end builder and the shield), but at that point you've already leveled early as purely MA, so hopefully that would satisfy the concept you are going for.

Otherwise for a ranged EB ya dun have too much else to go on (save for getting weild earth + early earth powers, but its not likely that'd fit ur theme at all).

thearkady · April 2014

D'oh...

That does look perfect, could retcon into the hybrid build at level 20. Might be better to go with Wrist Bolter (I think the anim is a better fit for saying it's a gadget worn on the wrist while in MA), that and the shield could be "testing prototype components". And by level 26, the armor is ready for field testing.

You've really nailed it, thiat's how I should go about it!

Now the only question that remains is Dragon Kick or Dragon Uppercut, shouldn't actually matter if I've counted powers correctly.

flowcyto · April 2014

Well, cool- hope it works out well for ya in practice. The rebuild costs shouldn't be too bad at the mid levels.

As far as Dragon Kick vs. Uppercut- DU is a good bit better for single targets in terms of dmg, but DK looks cooler (imo) and can stun in an AoE if you manage to clump mobs up. Both have their merits, so its up to you what to prioritize.

helbjorn · April 2014

A neat trick to use with a build like this is to take advantage of the glitch that lets you use a non-PA maintain with Mini-gun (and debuff). Being able to One Hundred Hand a group of mobs while unloading your Mini-gun in their faces makes for some incredible DPS (if you have the energy to fully maintain them). I've not tried OHH personally to see if it's one of the powers that the graphics glitch on when doing this (like Chainsaw Gauntlet does), so it may not look as cool as you would expect.

Its an easy trick to pull off, particularly if you put the two powers on the bottom row of your tray. Push 2 or 3 to start your Mini-gun, then a split second later push and hold the other number for your non-PA maintain. You can also mouse click to pull this off, but it's a little trickier.

ajanus · April 2014

helbjorn wrote: »

A neat trick to use with a build like this is to take advantage of the glitch that lets you use a non-PA maintain with Mini-gun (and debuff). Being able to One Hundred Hand a group of mobs while unloading your Mini-gun in their faces makes for some incredible DPS (if you have the energy to fully maintain them). I've not tried OHH personally to see if it's one of the powers that the graphics glitch on when doing this (like Chainsaw Gauntlet does), so it may not look as cool as you would expect.

Its an easy trick to pull off, particularly if you put the two powers on the bottom row of your tray. Push 2 or 3 to start your Mini-gun, then a split second later push and hold the other number for your non-PA maintain. You can also mouse click to pull this off, but it's a little trickier.

Minigun isn't the only power you can do this with. I was testing this with Reconstructing Circuits and it also works...haven't tried the others, but I would assume you could do this with any of the toggles as long as your other power doesn't interrupt the actual animation. Concussor Beams or Plasma Beam might be a bit trickier to pull off, but you might could summon some sigils or something. Might be worth testing.

helbjorn · April 2014

ajanus wrote: »

Minigun isn't the only power you can do this with.

Correct, but it's probably the most beneficial to do it with. :cool:

flowcyto · April 2014

The non-PA maintain bug is pretty damn powerful and works w/ any of the PA toggles paired w/ any maintain, last I checked; one of my best dps toons exploits- er, utilizes it :X

ajanus · April 2014

I don't know that I would make a toon that relies on it...I would imagine it will get fixed...eventually lol...I would hate to lose 1 of my...10 retcons on a toon :biggrin:

flowcyto · April 2014

Eh, its less an issue w/ 35+ toons

If they do fix the bug, then that character's dps will simply go from 'absurd' to 'great' and I'd adapt it accordingly.

From Punches To Armor (Dual Passive Build)

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