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Would you play 'Dark Champions' if Cryptic made it?
cybersoldier1981
Posts: 2,501 Arc User
I was going through some stuff online, looking at Dark Champions. I like it.
Admittedly, for a long time... I thought Dark Champions was just a 'darker' version of the regular Champions universe that featured Hudson City. Come to find out... it's kind of... well, I liked something...
No superpowers. No magic. Something about that irked me at first... then made me smile.
Then I realized.. I wanted a 'Dark Champions' made like CO. Same engine. Different setting. Same customizable character options.
Gone would be the silliness. Gone would be the mysticism that permeates the game. Gone would be the impossible supertech.
The developers would have to make something that actually has some thought behind it, and not handwave events and the like. We might actually have to go through some wild, interesting, and brutal stories.
Even better? Imagine what it would do to roleplayers. Gone would be the 'magic wins'. Gone would be 'my tech is more advanced than yours'. Gone would be the 'I am a dark overlord from Hell'. Gone would be any delusions of black and white morality.
Roleplayers might actually have to make interesting characters, not just a stack of abilities and gear to be 'good characters'.
I'm no great writer myself. If I have to think of a 'powered villain' of some sort, they all come out as boring. Now, give me a chance to write a human being that has become something horrible? I can do that a dozen times over.
Imagine our 'power sets'- no magic, no super powers, no crazy tech. Guns. Bows. Martial arts. Melee weapons. Imagine if we took those categories and expanded them.
A power set that revolves around SMG's. A martial art similar to Krav Maga. Escrima stick-type melee combat. All of those power sets would be broadened greatly.
Would you play this... or are you too scared to bleed and die?
I would play it in a heartbeat.
Admittedly, for a long time... I thought Dark Champions was just a 'darker' version of the regular Champions universe that featured Hudson City. Come to find out... it's kind of... well, I liked something...
No superpowers. No magic. Something about that irked me at first... then made me smile.
Then I realized.. I wanted a 'Dark Champions' made like CO. Same engine. Different setting. Same customizable character options.
Gone would be the silliness. Gone would be the mysticism that permeates the game. Gone would be the impossible supertech.
The developers would have to make something that actually has some thought behind it, and not handwave events and the like. We might actually have to go through some wild, interesting, and brutal stories.
Even better? Imagine what it would do to roleplayers. Gone would be the 'magic wins'. Gone would be 'my tech is more advanced than yours'. Gone would be the 'I am a dark overlord from Hell'. Gone would be any delusions of black and white morality.
Roleplayers might actually have to make interesting characters, not just a stack of abilities and gear to be 'good characters'.
I'm no great writer myself. If I have to think of a 'powered villain' of some sort, they all come out as boring. Now, give me a chance to write a human being that has become something horrible? I can do that a dozen times over.
Imagine our 'power sets'- no magic, no super powers, no crazy tech. Guns. Bows. Martial arts. Melee weapons. Imagine if we took those categories and expanded them.
A power set that revolves around SMG's. A martial art similar to Krav Maga. Escrima stick-type melee combat. All of those power sets would be broadened greatly.
Would you play this... or are you too scared to bleed and die?
I would play it in a heartbeat.
Post edited by cybersoldier1981 on
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Someday some publisher is going to use this idea, and make bank. We'll all be 10 years older, and wish we could have shoehorned our characters into whatever universe that company chooses, original or otherwise.
OR, Cryptic could take a chance, stop playing it safe, and get to work.
Looking forward too it either way.
But...what would the catgirls do for kicks?
Em
Terrorists. Cannibals. Psychopaths. Sociopaths. Megalomaniacs. These things actually exist, and they can be just as terrifying- if not more- than fictional 'monsters' and 'villains'.
I like a bit of fantasy embellishment, so I think it'd probably allow some very 'Night Avenger' concepts. I see no reason why vigilantes can't be 'like Batman', or even 'like the Punisher'. Modern day ninjas, urban commandos, or just costumed 'Kickassers' could be an awesome change in the Superhero MMORPG genre. In Champions Online, we do have a lot of room to play concepts like these... but it seems that in a roleplaying environment, these types are overshadowed by those that can throw cars or summon hellfire.
The criminal underworld can be a very interesting place for villains as well. Criminal groups have their own 'cultures' and I think that exploring these concepts could be fun as well.
It could even allow 'investigations' and let players explore new lore. Vehicles could actually serve a purpose.
And... a knife powerset (throwing knives and fighting knives). Holy crap.
And for those people who want a 'villain side'? Well, there's no better place for a villain than Hudson City.
The engine would be better off in the hands of people who want to bring it to its fullest where monetization is an afterthought.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Then, sure! I'd love to play a game Cryptic actually actively supported.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Wouldn't enjoy it myself, but to each their own, right?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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That's how I feel. Seems like there's already a ton of games where you have guns and punching in a dark, gritty, bloody, edgy setting. Dark champions just sounds to me like a permutation of GTA where it's always nighttime.
Darkness!!!
No parents!!!
{ Points up } This.
If that's how you see a possible non-powered crime-fighting game turning out, then you've obviously never read any good comics, ever. I realize you have your own thing you like, but I'll take Dark Champions as a 'Comic Book Game' over CO's parody/blatant mockery of Comics.
There's a reason Batman's Rogues Gallery is so popular. Batman himself is carrying an absurd amount of popularity and contrary to what some believe, it isn't because he's Dark and Broody. The fans of these comics aren't self-cutting emo kids that get off on death.
It's probably because non-powered characters like him often have to have actual skill and intelligence to defeat their foes instead of flying at them with their fists out.
The non-powered hero setting could be wealthy with interesting characters, stories, and themes. While some people are more 'comfortable' in the 'Sunny Day Hero' concept, it gets tiresome. This sort of serial died for a reason, and it was because people grew up.
I personally would love to see this become a reality, because it would require people to actually put thought into characters and developers would have to put thought into the actual writing.
Underage boy sidekick!
Monetization should NEVER be an afterthought in a F2P MMO. That's how you screw up and doom a game.
First of all, it sounds like you need to stop RPing with people who don't understand the value of character flaws or know what it takes to make an interesting character. Don't RP with children. If you think Dark Champions is going to magically cure piss poor character creation, you are so very wrong. It has NOTHING to do with the game and everything to do with the player.
If you're talking about the bat-**** crazy power creep CO has, that is a design problem and having a new game is only a temporary solution to a long term problem that most MMOs have, especially ones that are not skill based.
I'm not saying Dark Champions would be good or bad, I'm saying it's not going to solve your problems with it's existence.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
No need to take offense to what I said. I'm just saying that the game you describe sounds to me like many other games that are already out there (not precisely MMOs). To me it just seems like making another fantasy MMO.
And it's got nothing to do with any comics I've read. None of the superhero MMOs I've ever played played out like any comics I've read, even Champions. I imagine this game would be similar. It seems like regardless of setting or theme, no MMO can get away from the "go kill 12 rats and collect 12 chickens" missions. Not even Guild Wars 2 and their "revolutionary" event system, which was just "go kill 12 rats and collect 12 chickens" with a shiny paint job.
You act like every comic about a superhero is Superman vs the Citizens.
It may be dead to you, but it's not dead.
Again, seems like it would just be too plain to me. Modern day, realistic, where's the hook? Is the hook that it's nothing special? You're just a dude with some guns and you know how to punch people better than other people? And you stop crime bosses or whatever, but you live by your own moral code? I just don't get it. Just seems too plain, like a GTA MMO. Have you played APB? Sounds like you'd like that (except their free-to-play model kinda sucks).
What, I can't have a character who studied 28 different forms of hand-to-hand combat and was a trained demolions expert, leader, saboteur, ninja, Navy SEAL, sharpshooter, all before he hit puberty?
You're too strict!
Well, that eliminates... a lot of roleplayers.
And I do generally avoid these types. I just think it'd be nice to play in a setting where players are actually using characters, and not just power sets. It's absurdly hard to find a good group dynamic that isn't all about people one-upping one another. Fortunately, I've found such a group and we work well together.
Even further complicating this is that there are many people who don't want a story/event that has actual real character villains. Most roleplayers want the short route- they want a hero and a villain, black and white morality. No one wants to face down a villain that is understandable. No one wants to deal with a problem that can't be beaten, blasted, or magic'd away.
It's a writing challenge, and I'm no 'great writer'... but a lot of players want an 'easy' situation.
Outside of Roleplaying, I'd like to see a world where I'm not smothered in absurd mysticism and super-tech.
Well, let's be fair- I was a competitive sharpshooter when I was 10.
And the 'multiple forms of hand-to-hand combat' is another thing that irks me. It takes a while to research, but knowing an absurd amount of martial arts just means the character is really bad at managing his time. You don't need that many, ever. It's redundant. Every martial art has a different purpose, and people fail to realize this. Some are more for disarming/disabling, some are for brutal strikes, some are defensive.... and the rest are for Hollywood movies and competitions. There's a reason why MMA fighters do what they do- it's practical. You don't see real fighters doing spin-kicks and flips- because that'll get you smashed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxRKGiXoMb4
Also, if you know 10 different kinds of Kung-Fu and have never taken a class on fighting with improvised weapons, knives, or even a handgun self-defense class (even if you don't use a gun, Batman knows how they work), you're an idiot.
Well, it might be better, but it might not be. You don't think that any lazy RP'ers would play that game? You don't think there's any way to screw up a dark or gritty character with ideas that are improbable or impossible?
You seem to be of the opinion that if this Dark Champions game were made, that it would suddenly fix a variety of problems that aren't necessarily related to theme. If you'd enjoy playing it, by all means encourage its development, but I don't see how it's going to immediately fix the problems that you are citing with CO, as these problems aren't necessarily related to the theme of the game.
Well of course they would. And this is a very likely possibility. I'm not even eliminating them. I'm just saying they'd be less credible there.
Generally, when there are some restrictions, you get better quality. When people are forced to think things through, the quality improves. You now need to quantify your abilities and skillset. And you can't 'but superpowers' or 'but magic' as an excuse for something that doesn't make any sense at all.
I always use the AOL Chat RP days as an example. In a setting where you had the freedom to be what you wanted, it was a clusterf**k. Eventually it degenerated into drivel, sort of like what happens on CO.
I kind of blame CO's lousy writing, awfully bad setting, and general lack of respect for actual comic books. That, and desperately trying to appease too many themes at once. These problems set the theme. Hence why I don't play too well with this 'theme'. I prefer not to be in a parody.
That and releasing an absurd amount of demon/dark costumes in the Cash shop didn't help.
Well, they're really not that credible here, either. And the setting doesn't prevent people from making characters that don't fit anyway. If you don't like "all powerful deity" characters, those really aren't allowed by the lore that I know of. Something about a mystic prohibition that keeps god power levels in line with other superhumans. So that sort of character isn't even allowed by the lore here in CO, but you see them all the time.
Isn't that backwards? The setting in Champions PnP isn't anything like the setting portrayed in CO, and this is because of bad writing. You yourself have twice said that CO is executed more like a mockery of earnest comic books. I agree, and will add that it seems to me that it's executed more like someone whose idea of the comic book genre is Sunday morning comic strips than anything else. A poorly-written Dark Champions game would be just as bad.
The Ban, or the Veil or something. I forget.
Like, I didn't even know the Van Helsing Act was a law until yesterday, I'd always been told it was omitted intentionally. Then I find out they put it in... but that's kind of weird considering that 'magic and monsters' aren't really an officially-acknowledged thing...
I can't get a straight answer. I've seen people argue over what is and what isn't for over an hour, and I'm not going to waste time.
It's not backwards. I believe that the setting sets the tone for what people create, to a degree.
CO's writing makes a blatant mockery of the book lore. And the book lore isn't my cup of tea, I still think it's a bit too cheesy (last I saw a book was 2002, so unless there have been major changes, I still hold that opinion). However, CO took the absolute worst parts of the book lore and then just made a joke out of the rest.
I shouldn't be slapping Viper soldiers around easily. I shouldn't be seeing demons in the street. I shouldn't be doing a LOT of these things, no character should. But this is how the original writers for CO chose to represent this lore, and in turn it has spawned nothing more than a tidal wave of players whose creativity revolves around this god-awful representation.
If you put me in a Game of Thrones MMORPG, I'd see players working within the boundaries of the lore with a few idiotic exceptions. Put me in an open Fantasy setting that makes fart jokes the norm, and I'll be encountering Lord Butts and his centurion, Phallus Maximus the demon ninja overlord of hell and all things ouchie.
And you're right, a poorly-written Dark Champions would be just as bad. Hence why I say that the first guy to say 'you know what would be funny?' should be fired, pelted with hammers, and forced to walk barefoot across Legos to his car.
Well, the backwards I was talking about was more about whether the setting permits bad writing or bad writing ruins a setting. You seemed to be saying that CO is silly as a setting, I was just suggesting that CO would be fine without the bad writing. A different setting would be just as vulnerable to the same problems.
Now, if you have other reasons for wanting a different set of themes in your hero game, I can get behind that. Myself, I wouldn't be interested on the RP level, because I like having more RP options available to me. This is why I'm not big on RP'ing in fantasy games. As far as whether the gameplay would interest me, that's a different issue altogether.
However, you will be bitterly disappointed if you think a Dark Champions game would be immune to the same problems of character and writing that plague this game. People would make characters that don't fit. Bad writers could ruin a serious setting with unnecessary camp or convoluted storylines.
Then let me elaborate... I dislike the setting. The writing is just plain awful. So, the way I see it... the setting is like a soda I don't like the taste of. The writing is that same soda, except someone peed in it.
Honestly? Just because I'd like a change. I'd like a setting to not be bogged down in mysticism and impossible super-tech. I'd like for villains to be scary because they're dangerous people, not just because they've got powers. I'd like to actually have a system that allows you to target certain criminal networks, work missions around those criminal networks, and even investigate crimes.
I'd even like one where instead of me 'arresting' some guy I could kill him. Yes, it sounds horrible. But the method you use to apprehend villains should affect the way you are treated and your options as you play the game. You could be 'Batman' and arrest the guy, and at worst be treated with suspicion. You could be the 'Punisher' and kill the guy out right- and be hunted by the police but feared by criminals.
You could even have the option to be a full-fledged criminal. Oh, boo-hoo, here comes someone saying 'it's Grand Theft Auto!'. No it isn't. You would have missions. You can't just go around killing everyone. There would be repercussions to that as well.
There's a lot of potential. A lot of reasons why it'd work, and I'd totally play it.
See, that's fine. The idea wouldn't appeal to everyone. A large problem is when something tries to appeal to everyone. I'll even voice my opinion here- our little contest? Someone's going to win, and that 'thing' chosen is going to piss a lot of people off, mark my words. I don't much care, unless we get something that is absolutely stupid. And yes, what is 'stupid' will be based entirely on my own opinion and others are welcome to disagree. I am also not out to appeal to everyone.
Chances are, the game would quickly made me bored with little character variety.
Also, being set in a more realistic world would not necessarily turn any game into something with better story and writing.
There are a lot of badly written realistic books and movies with dumb plots and shallow characters.
all powers must be purchased with points-
all gear must be purchased as powers
no restriction on stats- can sell gear to up stats
dark champions- skilled normals
skill based -
normal characteristic maxima - that is- max stats are 20, and you must have a very good reason for having any stat that high.- so expect to buy all your clothes, no ingame drops since gear is not going to be boosting stats.
gear- eg. torchs, are purchased with characters cash- insert cash shop here
oh yes, I can see PWE going,
"hey, look at ALL this stuff we can put in the cash shop. We can sell them everything."
" this game is skill based. They learn skill from backgrounds"
"we can sell them training modules plus we can find out which skills are needed most and put them in lockboxes."
well it does have great possibilities for PvP, zip for end game grind.
storylines- more likely to get same missions for everyone, after all it's quicker to write an "insert name her" mission than ones tailored to who has done what.
Yes I'm thinking about it and what it would be done as.
Neverwinter with guns,
I'll stick to playing this game.
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Again, grimdark and lighthearted are not the only two options in storytelling.
People that believe this are obviously not introduced into much outside of Cartoon Network.
I like a variety of comics. I do not like dark, angry, and grim comics. However, I do like good stories and a constant stream of armpit noise humor is not a good story for anyone over the age of 5.
CO is already borderline Spongebob.
Would I play Champions online with a villain based Dark Lore looking faction system and new maps to fit.....Yes.
Not a fan of moving to a new game based around a sequel sorta thing.
If I want to play an mmo based around being dark and gritty 24/7 I'd just play secret world.....which I do.
But a game based around "street level" type heroes would be awesome. Gritty crime bosses and urban combat... yes please.
Martial arts (more than one type), staff fighting, swords, knives, guns, bows, boomerangs, gadgets, etc.
Plenty to work with that doesn't involve 'real superpowers'.
Magic is the most lazy route for any unimaginative writer, especially since in superhero setting there are other ways for doing the same, like cosmic powers or insane ancient alien supertech warping reality (and making superpowers possible).
And that's only if you actually bother to explaining existence of supertech and superpowers, which isn't needed at all.
Enough with fantasy in tights.
also, is batman really unpowered? I know people like to hang onto that, but he has been hit with so much feature creep, i tend to find him more ridiculous that superman. supes at least make sense, hes not a human and lacks our frailties. bats is a super genius who has time to work out enough to keep his physique, master multiple martial art styles, both unarmed and armed, he keeps on top of new criminology technology, builds a number of his own gadgets, does investigative work, patrols for random crime AND maintains a fake social life of a playboy goofball. you can only not sleep for so long. yeah he has some cool elements, but thinking about him at all pancakes disbelief. mary sue characters clall bs on batman.
Except no one has said it needs to be ultra-realistic. Even if there's no 'powers', an overwhelming majority of what even superheroes do is completely invalidated by physics.
Yes, Batman has no powers. Is he 'realistic'? No. And at no point have I said the game should be 'realistic'. You can embellish some fantasy.
If I wanted 'realistic street combat', I'd move into my old apartment and sit on the front porch for 30 minutes in an LSU shirt.
First time I heard about a "Van Helsing Act" was here on the forums. Neither it nor the attitude behind it are in the books.
I absolutely agree that the writing on CO has often veered sharply from the tone of the books, and sometimes seemingly-arbitrarily changed details from them. I do like a few of the things Cryptic has done or added, but others make me grit my teeth.
You also have every right not to like what you've read about Champions. Personal taste is never a matter of wrong or right. Since 2002, though, there have been more than a couple dozen PnP books published expanding on the setting, by several authors. Some of its evolution might pleasantly surprise you.
That's an interesting point. CO is a lot like superhero comics in general, in that it's a catch-all for almost any type of character style and background. Perhaps something with a clearly darker and more realistic tone might encourage players to stream their PC choices more suitably.
But, I do like the Dark Champions setting. Keep in mind that the setting does not necessarily exclude superhuman capabilities or science, it just de-emphasizes them (as of the last time I read the setting).
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
With that being said, I'd much rather they focus on improving CO rather than waste resources on the equivalent to City of Villains which I never cared about.
if they messed it this up, i can't trust them with another franchise
The Nemesis system needs fixing and here's ideas:
A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business. Henry Ford
Figuring out how to monetize an excellent game rather than making a game based around monetization is the first step to making a great game. If its great, people would throw money at it because it is great.
Worry about how to make money off of it after the game is set up.
Every MMO I've played so far was created with the sole purpose of making money. And each one of those games is subpar because of it.
For powers, I'd see it going from Normal to at least Enhanced Human. To better fit with the street hero types such as Daredevil and Batman. The same with technology, more High Military Grade and less "Semi Future Tech". As for Cryptics' involvement, I dunno. They are not exactly stellar with the Champs IP, A Dark Campions MMO might end up with just as much reliance on magic as the rest of the CO Universe does, although to a darker degree.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Hope1 ingame. PRIMUS Database Characters
Every MMO ever was made for purpose of making money. Some are just made better than others.
Making f2p mmo with no care of monetization in mind can only end in underfinanced and underdeveloped game like... Weeelll... We're all playing a very good example, yes?
Though this one was not supposed to be f2p from the very beginning.
Game must be made with good though of how to make money out of it, otherwise it will be a terrible flop. Coding costs, art costs as well. Hiring and keeping talented people who can make a great game needs money.
You will not make an excellent game without having a good money plan for it.
If that style of play is all you are looking for, you would probably be better off just playing Secret World. That's as close as you are going to get for the time being.
Remember: Half the people you know are below average...
Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.
Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...
Handle @brayv
I wouldn't wish TSW on mu worst enemy, for this reason alone the WORLD needs a Dark Champions MMO >_>
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
With current manpower, we would all die of old age long before this game ever happened :cool:
However, TSW is active now and is similar to what the OP describes he wants in a video game. Yes, there is minor magic in it, but mostly guns...and swords....and nighttime.
Plus some of the yellow and green missions are pretty interesting with some decent stories behind them.
However, you have to play it solo to get the full effect. Which, I guess, is bad for a mmo in general. It's a nice weekend getaway sometimes.
Remember: Half the people you know are below average...
Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.
Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...
Handle @brayv
That's just me. I've tried a number of MMOs but this is the only one I've stayed with and love. Partly because of the sheer joy of flying, super jumping, super speed, and the multitude of other flashy, fun powers.
It's just the perfect sandbox for me. By comparison, Dark Champs seems a bit boring.
You're a lunatic with a mad man's dream of a milk proof robot!
___________________________________________________
Just a reminder that this thread, and the "Champions 2.0" thread that's also running right now, was started in part because Cryptic already has taken on another game. Dan Stahl was pulled from STO to manage it. They just haven't announced what it is yet, so we're all speculating in the hopes that Cryptic will remove their heads from their posteriors and remember what made them in the first place.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
I simply do not have faith that Cryptic can make a great game, be it by the past choices they have made, or the ones PWE has made. It would be just as half***ed as CO was/is.
I can see it now. The only zone is Hudson City, and all you get is alerts.
I would not have even tried out Champions if it didn't have superpowers based on sci-fi science, mutations, magic, and so forth.
No thanks.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.