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Would you play 'Dark Champions' if Cryptic made it?

cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
I was going through some stuff online, looking at Dark Champions. I like it.

Admittedly, for a long time... I thought Dark Champions was just a 'darker' version of the regular Champions universe that featured Hudson City. Come to find out... it's kind of... well, I liked something...

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No superpowers. No magic. Something about that irked me at first... then made me smile.

Then I realized.. I wanted a 'Dark Champions' made like CO. Same engine. Different setting. Same customizable character options.

Gone would be the silliness. Gone would be the mysticism that permeates the game. Gone would be the impossible supertech.

The developers would have to make something that actually has some thought behind it, and not handwave events and the like. We might actually have to go through some wild, interesting, and brutal stories.

Even better? Imagine what it would do to roleplayers. Gone would be the 'magic wins'. Gone would be 'my tech is more advanced than yours'. Gone would be the 'I am a dark overlord from Hell'. Gone would be any delusions of black and white morality.

Roleplayers might actually have to make interesting characters, not just a stack of abilities and gear to be 'good characters'.

I'm no great writer myself. If I have to think of a 'powered villain' of some sort, they all come out as boring. Now, give me a chance to write a human being that has become something horrible? I can do that a dozen times over.

Imagine our 'power sets'- no magic, no super powers, no crazy tech. Guns. Bows. Martial arts. Melee weapons. Imagine if we took those categories and expanded them.

A power set that revolves around SMG's. A martial art similar to Krav Maga. Escrima stick-type melee combat. All of those power sets would be broadened greatly.

Would you play this... or are you too scared to bleed and die?

I would play it in a heartbeat.
Post edited by cybersoldier1981 on
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Comments

  • lafury001200lafury001200 Posts: 567 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    /10 chars signed x 50. Want.

    Someday some publisher is going to use this idea, and make bank. We'll all be 10 years older, and wish we could have shoehorned our characters into whatever universe that company chooses, original or otherwise.

    OR, Cryptic could take a chance, stop playing it safe, and get to work.

    Looking forward too it either way.
  • kittyotixkittyotix Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I would soooo love this. As I already have stated in previous posts, i have a dislike of pointless god-uber characters and this would be pretty awesome. Love the idea of a Krav Maga style martial arts. What about a stealth assassin powerset, and instead of being invisible, you get bonus melee attack for approaching from behind, or staying in the shadow. You could have knives and garrote powers.
    But...what would the catgirls do for kicks? :)
    Em
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I personally think it'd be fun to play a hero in a setting with actual criminal-types. I'm a huge fan of Batman, and despite some of his enemies being somewhat superhuman... my favorites are the ones that are just sick and twisted. I always thought that what human beings are capable of is scarier than super-powered or supernatural monsters. Humans are completely capable of doing scary stuff.

    Terrorists. Cannibals. Psychopaths. Sociopaths. Megalomaniacs. These things actually exist, and they can be just as terrifying- if not more- than fictional 'monsters' and 'villains'.

    I like a bit of fantasy embellishment, so I think it'd probably allow some very 'Night Avenger' concepts. I see no reason why vigilantes can't be 'like Batman', or even 'like the Punisher'. Modern day ninjas, urban commandos, or just costumed 'Kickassers' could be an awesome change in the Superhero MMORPG genre. In Champions Online, we do have a lot of room to play concepts like these... but it seems that in a roleplaying environment, these types are overshadowed by those that can throw cars or summon hellfire.

    The criminal underworld can be a very interesting place for villains as well. Criminal groups have their own 'cultures' and I think that exploring these concepts could be fun as well.

    It could even allow 'investigations' and let players explore new lore. Vehicles could actually serve a purpose.

    And... a knife powerset (throwing knives and fighting knives). Holy crap.

    And for those people who want a 'villain side'? Well, there's no better place for a villain than Hudson City.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,993 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Only if it didn't take anything away from the small scale development in this game. Little enough as it is, so I don't want to see that go away.
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  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,443 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The problem with this is that the way things are now and Cryptic's place in PWE's hands, the game that would come of it would be heavily monetized on the character customization and we might not even see ability customization. A prime example and starting point of what Cryptic can do: Champions. What they instead do with it: Neverwinter. The fun factor of what an MMO should be has gotten worse with each game. I wouldn't be surprised if their next project would be a rail shooter where you only get to change the color of your UI (for a small fee of 3000 Zen per color).

    The engine would be better off in the hands of people who want to bring it to its fullest where monetization is an afterthought.
  • r9xchaosr9xchaos Posts: 533
    edited April 2014
    Only if they implement it into this server , ive spend to much money and work and i feel way to attached to my toon to just play something else.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    /signed . I would so play the snot outta that ._."
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  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Only if they gave any indication they'd actually support the stupid thing rather than abandoning it half-done like everything else.


    Then, sure! I'd love to play a game Cryptic actually actively supported.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I'd like to see it come to be for the benefit of those who want to play that game.

    Wouldn't enjoy it myself, but to each their own, right?
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited April 2014
    jonsills wrote: »

    Wouldn't enjoy it myself, but to each their own, right?

    That's how I feel. Seems like there's already a ton of games where you have guns and punching in a dark, gritty, bloody, edgy setting. Dark champions just sounds to me like a permutation of GTA where it's always nighttime.

    Darkness!!!

    No parents!!!
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  • zedbrightlander1zedbrightlander1 Posts: 3,797 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    I'd like to see it come to be for the benefit of those who want to play that game.

    Wouldn't enjoy it myself, but to each their own, right?

    { Points up } This.
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  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That's how I feel. Seems like there's already a ton of games where you have guns and punching in a dark, gritty, bloody, edgy setting. Dark champions just sounds to me like a permutation of GTA where it's always nighttime.

    If that's how you see a possible non-powered crime-fighting game turning out, then you've obviously never read any good comics, ever. I realize you have your own thing you like, but I'll take Dark Champions as a 'Comic Book Game' over CO's parody/blatant mockery of Comics.

    There's a reason Batman's Rogues Gallery is so popular. Batman himself is carrying an absurd amount of popularity and contrary to what some believe, it isn't because he's Dark and Broody. The fans of these comics aren't self-cutting emo kids that get off on death.

    It's probably because non-powered characters like him often have to have actual skill and intelligence to defeat their foes instead of flying at them with their fists out.

    The non-powered hero setting could be wealthy with interesting characters, stories, and themes. While some people are more 'comfortable' in the 'Sunny Day Hero' concept, it gets tiresome. This sort of serial died for a reason, and it was because people grew up.

    I personally would love to see this become a reality, because it would require people to actually put thought into characters and developers would have to put thought into the actual writing.
    Darkness!!!

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  • stellariodragonstellariodragon Posts: 588 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I have a little thank-you key bind that randomly says something along the lines of "Thank You Heros" about 1 in 20 times someone replies, "I'm not a Hero." So I think there's a desire for playing dark champions. Hehehe.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The engine would be better off in the hands of people who want to bring it to its fullest where monetization is an afterthought.

    Monetization should NEVER be an afterthought in a F2P MMO. That's how you screw up and doom a game.


    First of all, it sounds like you need to stop RPing with people who don't understand the value of character flaws or know what it takes to make an interesting character. Don't RP with children. If you think Dark Champions is going to magically cure piss poor character creation, you are so very wrong. It has NOTHING to do with the game and everything to do with the player.

    If you're talking about the bat-**** crazy power creep CO has, that is a design problem and having a new game is only a temporary solution to a long term problem that most MMOs have, especially ones that are not skill based.


    I'm not saying Dark Champions would be good or bad, I'm saying it's not going to solve your problems with it's existence.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited April 2014
    If that's how you see a possible non-powered crime-fighting game turning out, then you've obviously never read any good comics, ever. I realize you have your own thing you like, but I'll take Dark Champions as a 'Comic Book Game' over CO's parody/blatant mockery of Comics.

    No need to take offense to what I said. I'm just saying that the game you describe sounds to me like many other games that are already out there (not precisely MMOs). To me it just seems like making another fantasy MMO.

    And it's got nothing to do with any comics I've read. None of the superhero MMOs I've ever played played out like any comics I've read, even Champions. I imagine this game would be similar. It seems like regardless of setting or theme, no MMO can get away from the "go kill 12 rats and collect 12 chickens" missions. Not even Guild Wars 2 and their "revolutionary" event system, which was just "go kill 12 rats and collect 12 chickens" with a shiny paint job.
    It's probably because non-powered characters like him often have to have actual skill and intelligence to defeat their foes instead of flying at them with their fists out.

    You act like every comic about a superhero is Superman vs the Citizens.
    The non-powered hero setting could be wealthy with interesting characters, stories, and themes. While some people are more 'comfortable' in the 'Sunny Day Hero' concept, it gets tiresome. This sort of serial died for a reason, and it was because people grew up.

    It may be dead to you, but it's not dead.
    I personally would love to see this become a reality, because it would require people to actually put thought into characters and developers would have to put thought into the actual writing.

    Again, seems like it would just be too plain to me. Modern day, realistic, where's the hook? Is the hook that it's nothing special? You're just a dude with some guns and you know how to punch people better than other people? And you stop crime bosses or whatever, but you live by your own moral code? I just don't get it. Just seems too plain, like a GTA MMO. Have you played APB? Sounds like you'd like that (except their free-to-play model kinda sucks).
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited April 2014
    sterga wrote: »
    First of all, it sounds like you need to stop RPing with people who don't understand the value of character flaws or know what it takes to make an interesting character. Don't RP with children. If you think Dark Champions is going to magically cure piss poor character creation, you are so very wrong. It has NOTHING to do with the game and everything to do with the player.

    What, I can't have a character who studied 28 different forms of hand-to-hand combat and was a trained demolions expert, leader, saboteur, ninja, Navy SEAL, sharpshooter, all before he hit puberty?

    You're too strict!
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  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    sterga wrote: »
    First of all, it sounds like you need to stop RPing with people who don't understand the value of character flaws or know what it takes to make an interesting character. Don't RP with children. If you think Dark Champions is going to magically cure piss poor character creation, you are so very wrong. It has NOTHING to do with the game and everything to do with the player.

    Well, that eliminates... a lot of roleplayers.

    And I do generally avoid these types. I just think it'd be nice to play in a setting where players are actually using characters, and not just power sets. It's absurdly hard to find a good group dynamic that isn't all about people one-upping one another. Fortunately, I've found such a group and we work well together.

    Even further complicating this is that there are many people who don't want a story/event that has actual real character villains. Most roleplayers want the short route- they want a hero and a villain, black and white morality. No one wants to face down a villain that is understandable. No one wants to deal with a problem that can't be beaten, blasted, or magic'd away.

    It's a writing challenge, and I'm no 'great writer'... but a lot of players want an 'easy' situation.

    Outside of Roleplaying, I'd like to see a world where I'm not smothered in absurd mysticism and super-tech.
    What, I can't have a character who studied 28 different forms of hand-to-hand combat and was a trained demolions expert, leader, saboteur, ninja, Navy SEAL, sharpshooter, all before he hit puberty?

    You're too strict!

    Well, let's be fair- I was a competitive sharpshooter when I was 10.

    And the 'multiple forms of hand-to-hand combat' is another thing that irks me. It takes a while to research, but knowing an absurd amount of martial arts just means the character is really bad at managing his time. You don't need that many, ever. It's redundant. Every martial art has a different purpose, and people fail to realize this. Some are more for disarming/disabling, some are for brutal strikes, some are defensive.... and the rest are for Hollywood movies and competitions. There's a reason why MMA fighters do what they do- it's practical. You don't see real fighters doing spin-kicks and flips- because that'll get you smashed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxRKGiXoMb4

    Also, if you know 10 different kinds of Kung-Fu and have never taken a class on fighting with improvised weapons, knives, or even a handgun self-defense class (even if you don't use a gun, Batman knows how they work), you're an idiot.
  • jaybee37jaybee37 Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The non-powered hero setting could be wealthy with interesting characters, stories, and themes.
    ...

    I personally would love to see this become a reality, because it would require people to actually put thought into characters and developers would have to put thought into the actual writing.

    Well, it might be better, but it might not be. You don't think that any lazy RP'ers would play that game? You don't think there's any way to screw up a dark or gritty character with ideas that are improbable or impossible?

    You seem to be of the opinion that if this Dark Champions game were made, that it would suddenly fix a variety of problems that aren't necessarily related to theme. If you'd enjoy playing it, by all means encourage its development, but I don't see how it's going to immediately fix the problems that you are citing with CO, as these problems aren't necessarily related to the theme of the game.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jaybee37 wrote: »
    Well, it might be better, but it might not be. You don't think that any lazy RP'ers would play that game? You don't think there's any way to screw up a dark or gritty character with ideas that are improbable or impossible?

    Well of course they would. And this is a very likely possibility. I'm not even eliminating them. I'm just saying they'd be less credible there.

    Generally, when there are some restrictions, you get better quality. When people are forced to think things through, the quality improves. You now need to quantify your abilities and skillset. And you can't 'but superpowers' or 'but magic' as an excuse for something that doesn't make any sense at all.

    I always use the AOL Chat RP days as an example. In a setting where you had the freedom to be what you wanted, it was a clusterf**k. Eventually it degenerated into drivel, sort of like what happens on CO.
    jaybee37 wrote: »
    You seem to be of the opinion that if this Dark Champions game were made, that it would suddenly fix a variety of problems that aren't necessarily related to theme. If you'd enjoy playing it, by all means encourage its development, but I don't see how it's going to immediately fix the problems that you are citing with CO, as these problems aren't necessarily related to the theme of the game.

    I kind of blame CO's lousy writing, awfully bad setting, and general lack of respect for actual comic books. That, and desperately trying to appease too many themes at once. These problems set the theme. Hence why I don't play too well with this 'theme'. I prefer not to be in a parody.

    That and releasing an absurd amount of demon/dark costumes in the Cash shop didn't help.
  • jaybee37jaybee37 Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Well of course they would. And this is a very likely possibility. I'm not even eliminating them. I'm just saying they'd be less credible there.

    Generally, when there are some restrictions, you get better quality. When people are forced to think things through, the quality improves. You now need to quantify your abilities and skillset. And you can't 'but superpowers' or 'but magic' as an excuse for something that doesn't make any sense at all.

    I always use the AOL Chat RP days as an example. In a setting where you had the freedom to be what you wanted, it was a clusterf**k. Eventually it degenerated into drivel, sort of like what happens on CO.

    Well, they're really not that credible here, either. And the setting doesn't prevent people from making characters that don't fit anyway. If you don't like "all powerful deity" characters, those really aren't allowed by the lore that I know of. Something about a mystic prohibition that keeps god power levels in line with other superhumans. So that sort of character isn't even allowed by the lore here in CO, but you see them all the time.
    I kind of blame CO's lousy writing, awfully bad setting, and general lack of respect for actual comic books. That, and desperately trying to appease too many themes at once.

    Isn't that backwards? The setting in Champions PnP isn't anything like the setting portrayed in CO, and this is because of bad writing. You yourself have twice said that CO is executed more like a mockery of earnest comic books. I agree, and will add that it seems to me that it's executed more like someone whose idea of the comic book genre is Sunday morning comic strips than anything else. A poorly-written Dark Champions game would be just as bad.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jaybee37 wrote: »
    Well, they're really not that credible here, either. And the setting doesn't prevent people from making characters that don't fit anyway. If you don't like "all powerful deity" characters, those really aren't allowed by the lore that I know of. Something about a mystic prohibition that keeps god power levels in line with other superhumans. So that sort of character isn't even allowed by the lore here in CO, but you see them all the time.

    The Ban, or the Veil or something. I forget.

    Like, I didn't even know the Van Helsing Act was a law until yesterday, I'd always been told it was omitted intentionally. Then I find out they put it in... but that's kind of weird considering that 'magic and monsters' aren't really an officially-acknowledged thing...

    I can't get a straight answer. I've seen people argue over what is and what isn't for over an hour, and I'm not going to waste time.
    jaybee37 wrote: »
    Isn't that backwards? The setting in Champions PnP isn't anything like the setting portrayed in CO, and this is because of bad writing. You yourself have twice said that CO is executed more like a mockery of earnest comic books. I agree, and will add that it seems to me that it's executed more like someone whose idea of the comic book genre is Sunday morning comic strips than anything else. A poorly-written Dark Champions game would be just as bad.

    It's not backwards. I believe that the setting sets the tone for what people create, to a degree.

    CO's writing makes a blatant mockery of the book lore. And the book lore isn't my cup of tea, I still think it's a bit too cheesy (last I saw a book was 2002, so unless there have been major changes, I still hold that opinion). However, CO took the absolute worst parts of the book lore and then just made a joke out of the rest.

    I shouldn't be slapping Viper soldiers around easily. I shouldn't be seeing demons in the street. I shouldn't be doing a LOT of these things, no character should. But this is how the original writers for CO chose to represent this lore, and in turn it has spawned nothing more than a tidal wave of players whose creativity revolves around this god-awful representation.

    If you put me in a Game of Thrones MMORPG, I'd see players working within the boundaries of the lore with a few idiotic exceptions. Put me in an open Fantasy setting that makes fart jokes the norm, and I'll be encountering Lord Butts and his centurion, Phallus Maximus the demon ninja overlord of hell and all things ouchie.

    And you're right, a poorly-written Dark Champions would be just as bad. Hence why I say that the first guy to say 'you know what would be funny?' should be fired, pelted with hammers, and forced to walk barefoot across Legos to his car.
  • jaybee37jaybee37 Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It's not backwards. I believe that the setting sets the tone for what people create, to a degree.

    CO's writing makes a blatant mockery of the book lore.

    Well, the backwards I was talking about was more about whether the setting permits bad writing or bad writing ruins a setting. You seemed to be saying that CO is silly as a setting, I was just suggesting that CO would be fine without the bad writing. A different setting would be just as vulnerable to the same problems.

    Now, if you have other reasons for wanting a different set of themes in your hero game, I can get behind that. Myself, I wouldn't be interested on the RP level, because I like having more RP options available to me. This is why I'm not big on RP'ing in fantasy games. As far as whether the gameplay would interest me, that's a different issue altogether.

    However, you will be bitterly disappointed if you think a Dark Champions game would be immune to the same problems of character and writing that plague this game. People would make characters that don't fit. Bad writers could ruin a serious setting with unnecessary camp or convoluted storylines.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jaybee37 wrote: »
    It's odd that you disagree with me about setting versus writing, but also seem to agree with me. A different setting is just as vulnerable to the same problems.

    Then let me elaborate... I dislike the setting. The writing is just plain awful. So, the way I see it... the setting is like a soda I don't like the taste of. The writing is that same soda, except someone peed in it.
    jaybee37 wrote: »
    Now, if you have other reasons for wanting a different set of themes in your hero game, I can get behind that. I just believe that you will be bitterly disappointed if you think a Dark Champions game would be immune to the same problems of character and writing that plague this game.

    Honestly? Just because I'd like a change. I'd like a setting to not be bogged down in mysticism and impossible super-tech. I'd like for villains to be scary because they're dangerous people, not just because they've got powers. I'd like to actually have a system that allows you to target certain criminal networks, work missions around those criminal networks, and even investigate crimes.

    I'd even like one where instead of me 'arresting' some guy I could kill him. Yes, it sounds horrible. But the method you use to apprehend villains should affect the way you are treated and your options as you play the game. You could be 'Batman' and arrest the guy, and at worst be treated with suspicion. You could be the 'Punisher' and kill the guy out right- and be hunted by the police but feared by criminals.

    You could even have the option to be a full-fledged criminal. Oh, boo-hoo, here comes someone saying 'it's Grand Theft Auto!'. No it isn't. You would have missions. You can't just go around killing everyone. There would be repercussions to that as well.

    There's a lot of potential. A lot of reasons why it'd work, and I'd totally play it.
    jaybee37 wrote: »
    Myself, I wouldn't be interested on the RP level, because I like having more RP options available to me. This is why I'm not big on RP'ing in fantasy games.

    See, that's fine. The idea wouldn't appeal to everyone. A large problem is when something tries to appeal to everyone. I'll even voice my opinion here- our little contest? Someone's going to win, and that 'thing' chosen is going to piss a lot of people off, mark my words. I don't much care, unless we get something that is absolutely stupid. And yes, what is 'stupid' will be based entirely on my own opinion and others are welcome to disagree. I am also not out to appeal to everyone.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited April 2014
    I'd probably play it with my one and only gun-toting character from time to time, and totally ignore it otherwise, since I rather like superhero comic books and impossible sci-fi tech.

    Chances are, the game would quickly made me bored with little character variety.

    Also, being set in a more realistic world would not necessarily turn any game into something with better story and writing.
    There are a lot of badly written realistic books and movies with dumb plots and shallow characters.
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    champions high powered supers-
    all powers must be purchased with points-
    all gear must be purchased as powers
    no restriction on stats- can sell gear to up stats

    dark champions- skilled normals
    skill based -
    normal characteristic maxima - that is- max stats are 20, and you must have a very good reason for having any stat that high.- so expect to buy all your clothes, no ingame drops since gear is not going to be boosting stats.
    gear- eg. torchs, are purchased with characters cash- insert cash shop here


    oh yes, I can see PWE going,
    "hey, look at ALL this stuff we can put in the cash shop. We can sell them everything."
    " this game is skill based. They learn skill from backgrounds"
    "we can sell them training modules plus we can find out which skills are needed most and put them in lockboxes."
    well it does have great possibilities for PvP, zip for end game grind.
    storylines- more likely to get same missions for everyone, after all it's quicker to write an "insert name her" mission than ones tailored to who has done what.
    Yes I'm thinking about it and what it would be done as.
    Neverwinter with guns,

    I'll stick to playing this game.
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  • kemmicalskemmicals Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Don't think I'd touch it. I prefer more lighthearted stuff as opposed to grimdark crap that's already flooding the market. If it does have some degree of self awareness about it and often jokes about it, then I might.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    kemmicals wrote: »
    Don't think I'd touch it. I prefer more lighthearted stuff as opposed to grimdark crap that's already flooding the market. If it does have some degree of self awareness about it and often jokes about it, then I might.

    Again, grimdark and lighthearted are not the only two options in storytelling.

    People that believe this are obviously not introduced into much outside of Cartoon Network.

    I like a variety of comics. I do not like dark, angry, and grim comics. However, I do like good stories and a constant stream of armpit noise humor is not a good story for anyone over the age of 5.

    CO is already borderline Spongebob.
  • ariesmajorariesmajor Posts: 394 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Would I play Dark Champions based around dark heroes with no real super powers just guns and fists.....No.

    Would I play Champions online with a villain based Dark Lore looking faction system and new maps to fit.....Yes.

    Not a fan of moving to a new game based around a sequel sorta thing.

    If I want to play an mmo based around being dark and gritty 24/7 I'd just play secret world.....which I do.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    This is a type of MMO that could really tap into an audience. So far every superhero mmo there has been, ends up defaulting to "magic" as the explanation for everything. Which kills it for me. Not that I don't mind magic in a hero game, it's just magic ends up dominating everything. Mostly because it requires little or no explanation. *Surprise it's Magic*

    But a game based around "street level" type heroes would be awesome. Gritty crime bosses and urban combat... yes please.
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  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ariesmajor wrote: »
    Would I play Dark Champions based around dark heroes with no real super powers just guns and fists.....No.

    Martial arts (more than one type), staff fighting, swords, knives, guns, bows, boomerangs, gadgets, etc.

    Plenty to work with that doesn't involve 'real superpowers'.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited April 2014
    Honestly, I'd play superhero mmo where explanation for everything isn't cheap magic.
    Magic is the most lazy route for any unimaginative writer, especially since in superhero setting there are other ways for doing the same, like cosmic powers or insane ancient alien supertech warping reality (and making superpowers possible).

    And that's only if you actually bother to explaining existence of supertech and superpowers, which isn't needed at all.

    Enough with fantasy in tights.
  • rianfrostrianfrost Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Martial arts (more than one type), staff fighting, swords, knives, guns, bows, boomerangs, gadgets, etc.

    Plenty to work with that doesn't involve 'real superpowers'.
    Problem is that the more real a setting is, the more suspension of disbelief gets strained. The game would have to have drastically different mob spawning because while i'm the biggest martial arts nerd you are likely to meet, a guy is not going to survive too many frontal assaults against guys with guns. And even if you have guns, against several thugs who are supposed to have military training, guns are only going to get a single guy so far. its one reason that saints row had to go full goofy, and gta strikes me as stupid because hey try to play it straight. even a vest is going to keep you so safe, the impact still slams you, higher caliber stuff can go through armor and weak points exist. it would have to play a lot more with stealth and smaller numbers of guys.

    also, is batman really unpowered? I know people like to hang onto that, but he has been hit with so much feature creep, i tend to find him more ridiculous that superman. supes at least make sense, hes not a human and lacks our frailties. bats is a super genius who has time to work out enough to keep his physique, master multiple martial art styles, both unarmed and armed, he keeps on top of new criminology technology, builds a number of his own gadgets, does investigative work, patrols for random crime AND maintains a fake social life of a playboy goofball. you can only not sleep for so long. yeah he has some cool elements, but thinking about him at all pancakes disbelief. mary sue characters clall bs on batman.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    rianfrost wrote: »
    Problem is that the more real a setting is, the more suspension of disbelief gets strained. The game would have to have drastically different mob spawning because while i'm the biggest martial arts nerd you are likely to meet, a guy is not going to survive too many frontal assaults against guys with guns. And even if you have guns, against several thugs who are supposed to have military training, guns are only going to get a single guy so far. its one reason that saints row had to go full goofy, and gta strikes me as stupid because hey try to play it straight. even a vest is going to keep you so safe, the impact still slams you, higher caliber stuff can go through armor and weak points exist. it would have to play a lot more with stealth and smaller numbers of guys.

    Except no one has said it needs to be ultra-realistic. Even if there's no 'powers', an overwhelming majority of what even superheroes do is completely invalidated by physics.
    rianfrost wrote: »
    also, is batman really unpowered? I know people like to hang onto that, but he has been hit with so much feature creep, i tend to find him more ridiculous that superman. supes at least make sense, hes not a human and lacks our frailties. bats is a super genius who has time to work out enough to keep his physique, master multiple martial art styles, both unarmed and armed, he keeps on top of new criminology technology, builds a number of his own gadgets, does investigative work, patrols for random crime AND maintains a fake social life of a playboy goofball. you can only not sleep for so long. yeah he has some cool elements, but thinking about him at all pancakes disbelief. mary sue characters clall bs on batman.

    Yes, Batman has no powers. Is he 'realistic'? No. And at no point have I said the game should be 'realistic'. You can embellish some fantasy.

    If I wanted 'realistic street combat', I'd move into my old apartment and sit on the front porch for 30 minutes in an LSU shirt.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,210 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    There's a significant amount of PnP material already in the Dark Champions line -- protagonists, enemies, and a very richly detailed city setting -- to support a game in the style of Batman, Daredevil, or the Punisher, or just straight modern-day adventure. I have no idea whether there would be enough interest to support a MMO in that vein (not to my own taste), or whether Perfect World has or would commit the time and resources to develop it. Certainly that was part of the long-term Cryptic plan when they bought the IP, but now?
    Like, I didn't even know the Van Helsing Act was a law until yesterday, I'd always been told it was omitted intentionally. Then I find out they put it in... but that's kind of weird considering that 'magic and monsters' aren't really an officially-acknowledged thing...

    First time I heard about a "Van Helsing Act" was here on the forums. Neither it nor the attitude behind it are in the books.

    CO's writing makes a blatant mockery of the book lore. And the book lore isn't my cup of tea, I still think it's a bit too cheesy (last I saw a book was 2002, so unless there have been major changes, I still hold that opinion). However, CO took the absolute worst parts of the book lore and then just made a joke out of the rest.

    I absolutely agree that the writing on CO has often veered sharply from the tone of the books, and sometimes seemingly-arbitrarily changed details from them. I do like a few of the things Cryptic has done or added, but others make me grit my teeth.

    You also have every right not to like what you've read about Champions. Personal taste is never a matter of wrong or right. Since 2002, though, there have been more than a couple dozen PnP books published expanding on the setting, by several authors. Some of its evolution might pleasantly surprise you. :wink:
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,993 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Personally, I'd be happy if they created a new Zone that was more like Gotham City than the Metropolis feel of Millennium City. Maybe that would attack the environment would set the tone for the types of heroes?
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 2,210 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Personally, I'd be happy if they created a new Zone that was more like Gotham City than the Metropolis feel of Millennium City. Maybe that would attack the environment would set the tone for the types of heroes?

    That's an interesting point. CO is a lot like superhero comics in general, in that it's a catch-all for almost any type of character style and background. Perhaps something with a clearly darker and more realistic tone might encourage players to stream their PC choices more suitably.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I am not sure. It would take some real consideration for me to buy another Cryptic game. I would need to see that the source material was receiving a faithful treatment. I would also need convincing that the game was going to be supported by the studio. Hmm, and I would need assurance that the player chatban system was not included.

    But, I do like the Dark Champions setting. Keep in mind that the setting does not necessarily exclude superhuman capabilities or science, it just de-emphasizes them (as of the last time I read the setting).

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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You know what, at this point I'd rather be happy that someone else other than Cryptic have a go at any future MMO installments to do with Champions. Cryptic has had their chance. They haven't done a really stellar job. I'm not talking about the writing, the camp or whether or not its faithful to the PnP source. I could care less as long as the game plays solidly well and is managed well. CO has satisfied me in the former, but certainly not in the latter.

    With that being said, I'd much rather they focus on improving CO rather than waste resources on the equivalent to City of Villains which I never cared about.
  • dantheiceman1dantheiceman1 Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    no i will not touch another cryptic product again.

    if they messed it this up, i can't trust them with another franchise
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  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,443 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    sterga wrote: »
    Monetization should NEVER be an afterthought in a F2P MMO. That's how you screw up and doom a game.

    Figuring out how to monetize an excellent game rather than making a game based around monetization is the first step to making a great game. If its great, people would throw money at it because it is great.

    Worry about how to make money off of it after the game is set up.


    Every MMO I've played so far was created with the sole purpose of making money. And each one of those games is subpar because of it.
  • spiderdude4spiderdude4 Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The setting of Dark Champions looks very interesting, although I'd assume for the sake of an MMO the realism would be toned down somewhat. Personally I'd love to see an MMO on the level of (or around) the Nolan Batman Movies and the TV show "Arrow" which displays heroes on a more real level, or at least focuses less on powers and more on skill. Hell, a hero level around the Batman: Arkham game series might do well.

    For powers, I'd see it going from Normal to at least Enhanced Human. To better fit with the street hero types such as Daredevil and Batman. The same with technology, more High Military Grade and less "Semi Future Tech". As for Cryptics' involvement, I dunno. They are not exactly stellar with the Champs IP, A Dark Campions MMO might end up with just as much reliance on magic as the rest of the CO Universe does, although to a darker degree.

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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited April 2014
    Figuring out how to monetize an excellent game rather than making a game based around monetization is the first step to making a great game. If its great, people would throw money at it because it is great.

    Worry about how to make money off of it after the game is set up.


    Every MMO I've played so far was created with the sole purpose of making money. And each one of those games is subpar because of it.

    Every MMO ever was made for purpose of making money. Some are just made better than others.

    Making f2p mmo with no care of monetization in mind can only end in underfinanced and underdeveloped game like... Weeelll... We're all playing a very good example, yes?
    Though this one was not supposed to be f2p from the very beginning.

    Game must be made with good though of how to make money out of it, otherwise it will be a terrible flop. Coding costs, art costs as well. Hiring and keeping talented people who can make a great game needs money.

    You will not make an excellent game without having a good money plan for it.
  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Cryptic seems spread out thin enough as it is. Asking them to take on another game is just silly. I mean, maybe some aspects of Dark Champions would be cool, but you are probably going to get the same writers and graphic designers that Champions Online has, which will turn into basically Champions Online at nighttime with only Technology and Martial Arts powersets to pick from.

    If that style of play is all you are looking for, you would probably be better off just playing Secret World. That's as close as you are going to get for the time being.


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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ajanus wrote: »
    If that style of play is all you are looking for, you would probably be better off just playing Secret World. That's as close as you are going to get for the time being.

    I wouldn't wish TSW on mu worst enemy, for this reason alone the WORLD needs a Dark Champions MMO >_>
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  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    nepht wrote: »
    I wouldn't wish TSW on mu worst enemy, for this reason alone the WORLD needs a Dark Champions MMO >_>

    With current manpower, we would all die of old age long before this game ever happened :cool:

    However, TSW is active now and is similar to what the OP describes he wants in a video game. Yes, there is minor magic in it, but mostly guns...and swords....and nighttime.

    Plus some of the yellow and green missions are pretty interesting with some decent stories behind them.

    However, you have to play it solo to get the full effect. Which, I guess, is bad for a mmo in general. It's a nice weekend getaway sometimes.


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  • kharma23kharma23 Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    No super powers, no sale.

    That's just me. I've tried a number of MMOs but this is the only one I've stayed with and love. Partly because of the sheer joy of flying, super jumping, super speed, and the multitude of other flashy, fun powers.

    It's just the perfect sandbox for me. By comparison, Dark Champs seems a bit boring.
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  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ajanus wrote: »
    Cryptic seems spread out thin enough as it is. Asking them to take on another game is just silly.

    Just a reminder that this thread, and the "Champions 2.0" thread that's also running right now, was started in part because Cryptic already has taken on another game. Dan Stahl was pulled from STO to manage it. They just haven't announced what it is yet, so we're all speculating in the hopes that Cryptic will remove their heads from their posteriors and remember what made them in the first place.
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  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,770 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It would fall outside my interest. Good luck, though.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • bwdaresbwdares Posts: 1,517 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    If my LTS carried over, then yes. I would not pay a monthly charge for a cryptic game, and I would never play an AT.

    I simply do not have faith that Cryptic can make a great game, be it by the past choices they have made, or the ones PWE has made. It would be just as half***ed as CO was/is.

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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I have no interest in playing a non-super powered version of the game.
    I would not have even tried out Champions if it didn't have superpowers based on sci-fi science, mutations, magic, and so forth.

    No thanks.
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