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Why is there no Brick Specific Energy Unlock?

tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
edited April 2014 in Power Discussion
I spent about an hour going through all the energy unlocks looking for one suitable for my build.

When one rather curious fact leaped out at me.

All the other Frameworks have at least 1-3 energy unlocks, but when I was going through Heavy Weapons/Might/Earth, I could not see one specifically geared to their abilities.

I found this odd, that one framework should not have an energy unlock of it's own and have to insert one from another framework.

If I'd been the one designing this, I'd have made it to key off Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes, since most Brick frameworks use these advantages.
At least, mine does, I can't speak to others.

Something like every time you Cripple or Challenge an enemy, you get energy returned.



And please do not discuss other energy unlocks, I'm not interested in having that conversation.
Post edited by tilarta on

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Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
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Comments

  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,214 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Tying an EU to challenging advs wouldn't really be wise- since those are used to hold threat by tanks, and tanks already get energy from having to block (and/or Defiance, and/or Fuel my Fire). That wouldn't help any non-tanks using Brick stuff either.

    There is no Str or Dex scaling EU in the game. Closest thing is Rush, but that's not an EU per se, and is tied to some somewhat costly MA abilities, and only works w/ Focus toggles.

    For Bricks, the devs prob figured they'd take Unstoppable- problem is that passive is just inferior to WotW or NW in terms of defenses, and again that's not an actual EU (scales off Rec anyways, iirc).

    I'd be okay w/ a Str/Dex scaling EU, but they'd prob have to re-work Rush and Unstoppable.

    For now, best thing ya can do is pick up MSA, proc it w/ a lunge or something, and maybe pack some Int (or use Unstoppable w/ a knock build).
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  • pwcross2pwcross2 Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    None of the melee frameworks have energy unlocks, that doesn't just apply to HW/Might/Earth... but also Single/Dual Blades, Claws and Unarmed.

    Celestial and all of the Sorcery frameworks also don't have a dedicated energy unlock... just Darkness and Supernatural do, but of course, Sorcery has it's circle of arcane power... but that's an energy form, not an unlock.

    I agree it wouldn't be great attaching the unlocks to CC/CS... aside from reasons mentioned, it would still leave any build that's not a tank out in the cold (basically, everyone who could make better use of it).
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The OP isn't alone. I've often wondered why the Melee sets don't have an energy unlock. The Power Armor set has one (overdrive). But none of the other Tanking sets do. You would think there would be a power unlock tied to Knocks or critical hits.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    pwcross2 wrote: »
    None of the melee frameworks have energy unlocks, that doesn't just apply to HW/Might/Earth... but also Single/Dual Blades, Claws and Unarmed.

    Bestial has one, and MA has rush on a lot of its attacks, that is more or less the MA energy unlock.
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Some HW attacks have synergy with Thermal Reverb.

    Earth -might- be able to do something with Wind Reverb, not sure.

    Could always do Force Shield/Force Sheathe for a ghetto unlock.

    And as Flow said, MSA is always an option.

    Don't feel too bad, Ice, Force and Sorcery are also missing unlocks.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,695 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    pwcross2 wrote: »
    None of the melee frameworks have energy unlocks, that doesn't just apply to HW/Might/Earth... but also Single/Dual Blades, Claws and Unarmed.

    Celestial and all of the Sorcery frameworks also don't have a dedicated energy unlock... just Darkness and Supernatural do, but of course, Sorcery has it's circle of arcane power... but that's an energy form, not an unlock.

    Neither Force nor Ice have Energy Unlock as well :|

    I have to say, our powerframes are REALLY unfinished and really Few!

    I am actually sick and tired of Picking Molecular Self-Assembly every time because it's the only Flexible Unlock!
    Overdrive COULD be flexible as well, but it currently DOESN'T working with many powers and it still hasn't been fixed)

    We need more Energy Unlock, period! EACH for every powerframe
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,214 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    Earth -might- be able to do something with Wind Reverb, not sure.

    Could always do Force Shield/Force Sheathe for a ghetto unlock.

    Yeah Quicksand does work w/ Wind Reverb for Earth (same w/ Crushing Wave in Force- I know the response: "yay, that fixes everything!"). Unarmed can use Spirit Reverb on some of its attacks if it has access to Fear (same w/ Sorcery and Celestial). Ice is left out cold! (unless it wants to use flashfire+TR or MSA- which any build can)
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  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Well, back before On Alert, we only had 2 superstats. Some EUs had different stats tied to them than they do now. For instance, Fire's Thermal Reverb was tied to Pre...so many frameworks were tied to 2 stats already. For instance, Fire builds were usually DEX/PRE, neither an energy stat. Ice, however, was recommended DEX/END, which had a recommended energy stat, so it didn't get an EU within the set.

    Sorcery got all the Auras and circles, some of which alleviated energy issues all together, but one of the suggested stats was Int, an energy stat.

    I think that played a factor into what trees got EUs and what ones didn't.

    I also think the powers-that-be had specific character builds in mind when they designed each power set...similar to ATs now. However, they also wanted to make sure they gave room to cherry pick by not giving some power sets access to certain things like toggles or EUs.

    This leaves us with Might, one of the few that didn't have a lot at the beginning (aside from Uppercut spam). My only thought on this is because it had Enrage. At the time, Enrage was probably the most used and most powerful ability in the game. I think that was their justification for not giving Might an EU as well...however, now, a lot of people don't have the means to see how everything "used" to work.


    Remember: Half the people you know are below average...

    Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.

    Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...

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  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ajanus wrote: »
    *snip*

    The thing with how things used to work is those can change - and are supposed to change with the meta really. Power Armor was given Overdrive somewhere down the line for example.
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,443 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Molecular Self Assembly works well with a lot of sets outside of Tech. I guess the reason for Might not having an Energy Unlock is that the passive have energy return built into them and that back in the day it was one of the few sets that had a Form that gives energy.
  • oniganononiganon Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Probably they figured Bricks would be using Unstoppable or Defiance, both of which generate energy.

    SS Rec + Unstoppable generates upwards of 70 energy every 2s or so on knock. It's pretty substantial. Together with Enrage + SS Str, you can Haymaker forever.
  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    The thing with how things used to work is those can change - and are supposed to change with the meta really. Power Armor was given Overdrive somewhere down the line for example.

    I was just stating a justification. Might should definitely be given an overhaul, along with a few other sets...but as we all know, it is very easy for people to "forget" what needs to be worked on in this game.


    Remember: Half the people you know are below average...

    Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.

    Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...

    Handle @brayv
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    In might, if you use Defiance, energy simply isn't an issue at all.
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  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Okay, so let me see if I got this right.

    They didn't provide an energy unlock for Brick on the theory that everyone would be using Defiance.
    For the record, I am using Regeneration.
    So it looks like that doesn't help me at all.

    I don't use Heavy Weapons, so the Fire synergy energy unlock is out.
    I vaguely considered using Wind, but in the end decided it wouldn't work.


    I was just making up the CC/CS requirement for energy return up because I was told it's what every Brick based framework uses, something to do with breaking enemy blocks and taunting.
    Which is why I made sure to include it in my build.
    Additionally, it's the one thing you can use in all 3 Brick frameworks.

    So if that's not suitable, what would you suggest Brick energy return keys off instead?
    I couldn't think of anything that could be applied universally to Heavy Weapons/Might/Earth, as they all employ different combat mechanics.


    As an aside, I am disappointed the problem is more widespread then I thought.
    I was so busy looking at it from the Brick point of view, I didn't realize Melee Combat/Martial Arts, Force and Ice had no Energy Unlocks as well!

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I'm guessing that if it's ok to take Regeneration in a Might build, then it is also ok to take MSA as well :biggrin:


    Remember: Half the people you know are below average...

    Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.

    Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...

    Handle @brayv
  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I examined MSA very closely and realized why it was the first one I dismissed.

    According to the description in Powerhouse, it gives you energy back on cooldown timers expiring and the more timers expiring at once, the more energy you get back.

    On a build specifically designed not to have cooldown timers, that didn't seem terribly helpful.
    And I won't talk about my build, so please don't ask about that.


    Now let's not discuss MSA again please.
    As I mentioned in the initial post, I don't want to talk about existing Energy Unlocks.
    Thank you.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Well, stat up End and Rec. That's your only option left.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    I examined MSA very closely and realized why it was the first one I dismissed.

    According to the description in Powerhouse, it gives you energy back on cooldown timers expiring and the more timers expiring at once, the more energy you get back.

    On a build specifically designed not to have cooldown timers, that didn't seem terribly helpful.
    And I won't talk about my build, so please don't ask about that.


    Now let's not discuss MSA again please.
    As I mentioned in the initial post, I don't want to talk about existing Energy Unlocks.
    Thank you.

    That's not really how MSA works. If you just have 1 power with a 6sec cd or less, you can fuel it indefinitely. Conviction and Lunges are usually staples in just about every melee-based build. Since you said you were Might, I have to assume you are also melee.

    MSA doesn't "stack" like some others do. It is either "on" or "off" and all you have to do is lunge to keep it on forever.

    There are many other attacks/powers that allow it to stay up at all times, like Hurl, which could be one of your better options since it is Might, and if you aren't taking a lunge for some reason, is a great way to apply both Nailed to the Ground and Crippling Challenge.

    I know you don't want to hear about MSA anymore, but I think you were a bit misinformed on how it actually works and the simplicity of including it in your builds.


    Remember: Half the people you know are below average...

    Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.

    Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...

    Handle @brayv
  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I did try out MSA to see how it performed for my particular Brick build.
    And yes, there are Cooldown based powers, but only three of them.

    All it did was to take energy away, not return it.
    I was advised this is because if you don't spec into INT stat, it won't do anything.

    Since Brick Frameworks use CON and STR, that doesn't help a lot.
    And yes, there is a third stat, but that is currently in use (not for INT!).


    So, the original statement still stands, Brick needs an Energy Unlock of their own and should not rely on the unlock from another framework.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I have long-since stopped making Brick toons...mostly just cherry-pick from the sets time and again.

    Sadly, Might toons either take Defiance, be force-fed into MSA/Int, or just be energy-starved for the most part.

    To top that off, Shockwave isn't even boosted offensively by anything else in the Brick set. I love the animation of it, but I have to take...Electric Form? Night Warrior? AoPM? to boost it...good times. That and half of the damage from Earth Splitter and Brimstone are in the same situation as well.

    I would also love to see an EU for Brick, but those are just a couple of things that probably won't get any attention in the near future.


    Remember: Half the people you know are below average...

    Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.

    Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...

    Handle @brayv
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,199 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You don't really need one, because the powers associated take care of themselves, A typical Synergy is Str/Con/Rec, use this with Enrage + Defiant/Unstoppable, you get Energy from being damaged every few seconds with Defiant and being Knocked/Knocking with Unstoppable, most people don't bother cause they'll feel gimped (Considering the Brick power set needs it's 20% damage lost from When Aggressor was a toggle) most are melee and lack of their precious dodge, but the specific build type works. \o/
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  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So our only choice to gain Energy for Bricks is to be shoehorned into a specific setup with no consideration for the fact we may want to make a different kind of Brick?

    I'm not okay with that, not at all!

    I never liked Enrage, which is why I made a point of excluding it from my Brick builds.
    Defiant and Unstoppable are out of consideration, because I am using Regeneration.
    Additionally, these skills require you to spec more then one point into them (6 on total if you use both, from memory), whereas an Energy Unlock only requires one point to use.

    So this doesn't solve the problem, as the above solution is not a universal approach that can be applied independently to any type of Brick.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It's a normal day of crime-fightning for the Fantastic Four.

    Thing is zipping around with R3 Athletics snapping his fingers making fire patches everywhere...

    Richards: What are you doing?

    Thing: What's it look like? I'm gaining Energy...


    Remember: Half the people you know are below average...

    Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.

    Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...

    Handle @brayv
  • bravehoptoadbravehoptoad Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    I never liked Enrage, which is why I made a point of excluding it from my Brick builds.
    Defiant and Unstoppable are out of consideration, because I am using Regeneration.
    Additionally, these skills require you to spec more then one point into them (6 on total if you use both, from memory), whereas an Energy Unlock only requires one point to use.

    So this doesn't solve the problem, as the above solution is not a universal approach that can be applied independently to any type of Brick.

    Well...there's your problem. Brick passives provide energy, and you're just not using them.

    Seriously. If you're going outside of Brick for your form and your passive, why make such a big deal about leaving it for your energy? SMH.

    I mean, every source of energy forces constraints on you. That's not specific to the Brick set -- that's true for all of them. MSA needs a cooldown and INT. Overdrive means that you're using maintains. Rush means that you're using a Dragon move. Unstoppable means that you're using knocks. Supernatural means that you're stuck with the powers from one set. Thermal Reverb means that you're having to spread Clinging Flames, etc., etc., they all have limitations.
    tilarta wrote: »
    All it did was to take energy away, not return it.
    I was advised this is because if you don't spec into INT stat, it won't do anything.

    According to Mecha-Teddy stickied right at the top of this forum:

    Molecular Self-Assembly (+0.081 Energy every 3 seconds for 6 seconds per point of intelligence.)

    Molecular Self-Assembly (+0.017 Energy every 3 seconds for 6 seconds per point of recovery.)

    Easy enough to figure out how much energy you need and stat accordingly.
    ajanus wrote: »
    It's a normal day of crime-fightning for the Fantastic Four.

    Thing is zipping around with R3 Athletics snapping his fingers making fire patches everywhere...

    Richards: What are you doing?

    Thing: What's it look like? I'm gaining Energy...

    I lol'd.
  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Seriously. If you're going outside of Brick for your form and your passive, why make such a big deal about leaving it for your energy?

    There is no Form power in my build. How did you get the idea I had one?
    And why would a Brick build incorporate that anyway?
    According to Energy Form, it's more intended for Energy Projector, Telekinetic and Sorcery builds.

    The reason I chose Regeneration was I wanted a heal that didn't consume energy and would be constantly active that wasn't dependent on an external healing pet.


    And it's more a case of the fact that the current offering of energy unlocks do nothing whatsoever for a Brick build.
    I went through them all and they're all geared to work with an external factor in their respective framework.
    Case in point, what good does Killer Instinct do if you aren't using a Munitions power to fight?

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,770 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Not every power set or power build is required to have an energy unlock.

    As previously explained:

    Defiance: energy on taking damage.
    Unstoppable: energy on knock attacks.

    Baked into the passives.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,214 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »

    And it's more a case of the fact that the current offering of energy unlocks do nothing whatsoever for a Brick build.
    I went through them all and they're all geared to work with an external factor in their respective framework.
    Case in point, what good does Killer Instinct do if you aren't using a Munitions power to fight?

    Yeah, but as you've seen, that's not a Brick-specific issue, and some EUs are designed to be limited. We're kinda lucky we even have more universal ones like TR, OD, or MSA.

    It would be nice if they made an EU that was intuitive for each powerset and not tie it in to things like passives, but then things like Rush or Unstoppable/Defiant's energy return would prob have to go away for balance concerns. I don't think the devs are up for that sort of redesign at this point in the game.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • bravehoptoadbravehoptoad Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    There is no Form power in my build. How did you get the idea I had one?
    And why would a Brick build incorporate that anyway?

    You should probably get one. They make any build more powerful, Brick or otherwise. Most forms stack damage buffs. The form native to the Brick powerset is Enrage, based on STR, which you've stated that you don't like. Aspect of the Bestial also stacks Enrage--one is triggered by knocks and the other by bleeds. Then there are the forms that stack Focus: Form of the Tempest/Warrior/Tiger/Master, which are based on DEX. Then a couple forms that stack Concentration, for ranged damage, and then some narrower ones like Manipulator and Compassion.

    Here's a good place to start: http://web.archive.org/web/20130819145247/http://champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/Form

    Honestly, it sounds like you need build advice more than a new Energy Unlock. Why not post your build? I'm no expert, but there are some really good build gurus on here that help all comers.
  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I don't wish to discuss my Brick build.
    I know from experience that each modification I make to it will cost me an offensive ability and that's what this build is geared towards, inflicting damage in as many ways as possible within the constraints of the Earth/Might frameworks.
    So there's no build advice that can be offered to make my build better within that specification.


    If I chose to use one of those "standard" Brick passives, I'd be giving up my ability to self heal, which is mostly dependent on Regeneration.
    So saying I should be using those passives is irrevalent, as I can't do it even if I wanted to.

    I also don't believe all Bricks use those passives, I knew at least one player who used Invulnerability on their Brick for damage reduction.


    All of the above reasons are why I believe the only solution here is for Cryptic to provide a Brick appropriate Energy Unlock.


    As an aside, I just remembered that the Earth framework initially had a unique Passive of it's own, but it mysteriously vanished during the testing phase.
    I wonder why that was?

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    If you want to suggest a brick Unlock, your best bet would be the Suggestions forum. Keep in mind that even in the Suggestions forum the odds are low though.
  • rugrothrumborrugrothrumbor Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    From the looks of it Energy Unlocks was what ranged power sets used to have and melee power sets had toggles. Now that ranged powers got toggles, it's only fair that melee power sets get energy unlocks. Feral was the only exception.

    Martial Arts EU: Every time you land a critical hit with a martial arts power you gain energy. Energy gained is based on Dexterity and Recovery.

    Might EU: Every time you perform a Brick power you gain energy. Energy gained is based on Constitution and Recovery.

    Heavy Weapons EU: Every time you perform a Brick power you gain energy. Energy gained is based on Strength and Recovery.
  • taintedmesstaintedmess Posts: 446 Arc User
    edited April 2014

    Might EU: Every time you perform a Brick power you gain energy. Energy gained is based on Constitution and Recovery.

    Heavy Weapons EU: Every time you perform a Brick power you gain energy. Energy gained is based on Strength and Recovery.

    Probably way to OP unless the energy provided was very small also boringly specific to the brick sets.

    Hows about it giving energy on knock instead of course there's those that roll no knock builds so for them hows about modifying the heavy weapons one to.

    energy provided on charge of power (probably must be charged at least half way)

    So that way there would be 3 new EU useful to melee sets but also useful to other builds as well
  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,770 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    I don't wish to discuss my Brick build.
    I know from experience that each modification I make to it will cost me an offensive ability and that's what this build is geared towards, inflicting damage in as many ways as possible within the constraints of the Earth/Might frameworks.
    So there's no build advice that can be offered to make my build better within that specification.


    If I chose to use one of those "standard" Brick passives, I'd be giving up my ability to self heal, which is mostly dependent on Regeneration.
    So saying I should be using those passives is irrevalent, as I can't do it even if I wanted to.

    I also don't believe all Bricks use those passives, I knew at least one player who used Invulnerability on their Brick for damage reduction.


    All of the above reasons are why I believe the only solution here is for Cryptic to provide a Brick appropriate Energy Unlock.


    As an aside, I just remembered that the Earth framework initially had a unique Passive of it's own, but it mysteriously vanished during the testing phase.
    I wonder why that was?

    Oook.

    Has it occurred to you that maybe your build just doesn't work?
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • bravehoptoadbravehoptoad Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    I know from experience that each modification I make to it will cost me an offensive ability and that's what this build is geared towards, inflicting damage in as many ways as possible within the constraints of the Earth/Might frameworks.

    So there's no build advice that can be offered to make my build better within that specification.

    What makes you so sure of that? Why not post your build and see what people come up with?

    I bet you $1 that someone will have ideas that will make your build better. I've already had one -- you need to get a Form that stacks a damage buff -- Enrage or Focus or Concentration or whatever. It will make ALL your attacks more effective.
  • silvergryphsilvergryph Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    I don't wish to discuss my Brick build.
    I know from experience that each modification I make to it will cost me an offensive ability and that's what this build is geared towards, inflicting damage in as many ways as possible within the constraints of the Earth/Might frameworks.
    So there's no build advice that can be offered to make my build better within that specification.


    If I chose to use one of those "standard" Brick passives, I'd be giving up my ability to self heal, which is mostly dependent on Regeneration.
    So saying I should be using those passives is irrevalent, as I can't do it even if I wanted to.

    I also don't believe all Bricks use those passives, I knew at least one player who used Invulnerability on their Brick for damage reduction.


    All of the above reasons are why I believe the only solution here is for Cryptic to provide a Brick appropriate Energy Unlock.


    As an aside, I just remembered that the Earth framework initially had a unique Passive of it's own, but it mysteriously vanished during the testing phase.
    I wonder why that was?

    I am all for adding an EU to more sets. I am going to post in your suggestion thread. However, I would like to make a recommendation that may do what you need if you don't mind running with an offensive passive. It should eliminate the need for an Energy Unlock, provide you with hands-free healing, and increase your DPS in the process.

    Try Quarry with the Fair Game advantage. Quarry increases all physical damage, and non-physical to a lesser extent. It gives you stacks of bonus Intelligence that can bring it almost to the level of a secondary Superstat. This will reduce your energy costs significantly, effectively replacing an Energy Unlock. It also gives you stacks of Ego that boost your Hold Resistance.

    The Fair Game advantage gives you health with nothing extra to click on every time you defeat your target. And the healing scales with your CON. Quarry also provides you with Dodge and Avoidance. I think you will find that combined with the healing from Fair Game this makes you at least as survivable as Regeneration. Maybe more so.
  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    What makes you so sure of that?

    Field test results.
    This is actually my second Brick and the first one (a variation of the standard Brick build) was a failure.
    When the Earth framework was released, I analyzed the flaws from the first Brick and fixed them.
    That is why I am so certain there is point in trying to improve it further.

    And I'm not interested in Enrage (or forms), so please stop discussing them.



    I did try a Dodge Avoidance Build at once point, though I was using Lightning Reflexes instead of Quarry.
    And judging from the description, Quarry/Fair Game only works if you're killing enemies.
    My Brick currently is frequently in the situation where there's only one enemy (because they've killed all the others!) and they're facepunching a boss level enemy. And since the boss is not dead (yet!), you're not going to get health returned while fighting them.
    Hence the use of Regeneration, a constant source of healing not dependent on external factors.

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  • rugrothrumborrugrothrumbor Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Probably way to OP unless the energy provided was very small also boringly specific to the brick sets.

    Hows about it giving energy on knock instead of course there's those that roll no knock builds so for them hows about modifying the heavy weapons one to.

    energy provided on charge of power (probably must be charged at least half way)

    So that way there would be 3 new EU useful to melee sets but also useful to other builds as well

    I was thinking more the lines of something like this: http://web.archive.org/web/20130902172346/http://champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/Supernatural_Power

    Just the Brick versions.
  • bravehoptoadbravehoptoad Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    That is why I am so certain there is point in trying to improve it further.

    Then post it for all of us so that we can learn! It's a rare build that is impossible to improve on.
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Without knowing how much you are limiting yourself on what powers to choose, I was thinking and thought of something. My bet is that it's out of your theme and you won't like it but...

    Considering you have PRE as a superstat, have you considered taking Protection Field? It'd provide a defensive layer on you, which also gives you energy as it's damaged.

    Along those lines, have you also considered taking Force Field as a block power? If you take it's advantage, the force field will linger for a short time after you stop blocking providing some defense as well as returning energy to you while it lasts.
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  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,443 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Might EU: Every time you perform a Brick power you gain energy. Energy gained is based on Constitution and Recovery.

    Heavy Weapons EU: Every time you perform a Brick power you gain energy. Energy gained is based on Strength and Recovery.

    We should never EVER get more powers that scale with Con. Con is usable to the point where you should never choose anything but. And we don't want Strength ending up the same way. Base them solely on Recovery, which is a stat you should choose as a secondary when using these powers anyways.
  • cptmillenniumcptmillennium Posts: 447 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    We should never EVER get more powers that scale with Con. Con is usable to the point where you should never choose anything but. And we don't want Strength ending up the same way. Base them solely on Recovery, which is a stat you should choose as a secondary when using these powers anyways.

    I agree scaling the EU off CON would be a problem. Having it scale off STR gives more reason to balance your stats between the two though.

    I'd be against having it scale solely off REC because I think we need parity with ranged sets. Killer Instinct, MSA, the Archery unlock nobody takes…don't they all scale off INT (or EGO in some cases), which also fuels Quarry and Concentration, making it a one-stop-shop for all your offensive needs?

    Forcing melees to invest heavily into REC, a non-offensive stat just worsens their situation it would seem.
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  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Then post it for all of us so that we can learn!
    Check your private messages via Control Panel and you'll learn the reason why I am not posting it.
    kallethen wrote: »
    Without knowing how much you are limiting yourself on what powers to choose, I was thinking and thought of something.

    Considering you have PRE as a superstat, have you considered taking Protection Field? It'd provide a defensive layer on you, which also gives you energy as it's damaged.

    Along those lines, have you also considered taking Force Field as a block power?

    The specification is to choose any Earth (primarily) or Might powers that don't have Cooldowns with no powers from the Heavy Weapons framework allowed.
    A secondary specification is that all passives have to be constantly on without using a click command.
    The idea is to have a character who is ready to fight with no warning whatsoever.


    I tried Protection Field, but it only lasts for 20 seconds and then has to be set again.
    Which breaks the secondary specification rule above.
    And it ate a lot of energy, so reward outweighs cost of use.
    Also, it requires an investiture of 3 points to maximise potential and I only have 1 left.


    The Block Power is a sensitive topic to address on this character.
    Short version, Cryptic promised a specific Block that was never delivered and as a result, I don't have a Block.
    I want a Corporeal Shield (not Energy!) and that disqualifies Force Field.
    Also, when you're facepunching nonstop, I don't think you have the time to actually stop and block.
    It might be different if Force Field had an advantage like Laser Knight, which would keep it operational while I was facepunching.
    I'm assuming theorectically, you'd be gaining energy while facepunching under those conditions.
    But I don't see such a thing happening.

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  • rugrothrumborrugrothrumbor Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    We should never EVER get more powers that scale with Con. Con is usable to the point where you should never choose anything but. And we don't want Strength ending up the same way. Base them solely on Recovery, which is a stat you should choose as a secondary when using these powers anyways.

    How is that an argument. Spirit Reverberation does scale off of Constitution but it's specific for Darkness powers which is also ranged. Just keep giving stuff for ranged?
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,443 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    How is that an argument. Spirit Reverberation does scale off of Constitution but it's specific for Darkness powers which is also ranged. Just keep giving stuff for ranged?

    How is THIS even an argument? Con is a set focused stat for Brick. Con isn't a set focused stat for Darkness.

    Energy unlock powers should just be based on Recovery, Endurance and maybe Intelligence. At the most, based on stats that aren't focused stats in the set.

    You need to stop making suggestions that seem heavily biased to making your builds more viable while leaving others behind.


    In general, if you have energy problems in your build than get a power that offers energy. If you have energy problems get a Form or a Passive that helps it. If you don't want to get those get more Rec, Int or End. If you can't do THAT rank up your Energy Builder.

    If you can't even do that than your build doesn't work.
  • ajanusajanus Posts: 501 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    How is THIS even an argument? Con is a set focused stat for Brick. Con isn't a set focused stat for Darkness.

    Energy unlock powers should just be based on Recovery, Endurance and maybe Intelligence. At the most, based on stats that aren't focused stats in the set.

    You need to stop making suggestions that seem heavily biased to making your builds more viable while leaving others behind.


    In general, if you have energy problems in your build than get a power that offers energy. If you have energy problems get a Form or a Passive that helps it. If you don't want to get those get more Rec, Int or End. If you can't do THAT rank up your Energy Builder.

    If you can't even do that than your build doesn't work.

    Con IS a stat focused on Darkness. Before On Alert, the chosen superstats of the Darkness set were Con/End. This was to let you make full use of Dark Transfusion...and use Spirit Reverberation. Keep in mind that we didn't used to have 100000% cost reduction like we do now. Those high cost Darkness powers really were "high" costing powers. To make it work, you had to run Dark Transfusion, which made Con that much more important. Also keep in mind that not everything had a smooth transition into the On Alert/3 superstat era. This would explain how some people forgot how important some 'now less used' powers were at the time.


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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,214 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I agree scaling the EU off CON would be a problem. Having it scale off STR gives more reason to balance your stats between the two though.

    I'd be against having it scale solely off REC because I think we need parity with ranged sets. Killer Instinct, MSA, the Archery unlock nobody takes…don't they all scale off INT (or EGO in some cases), which also fuels Quarry and Concentration, making it a one-stop-shop for all your offensive needs?

    Forcing melees to invest heavily into REC, a non-offensive stat just worsens their situation it would seem.

    An EU for charging a melee power or finishing a combo that scales off Str or Dex would prob be enough. If they did this, I would prefer they also revamp Rush and Unstoppable to give benefits different than energy return.

    Not all ranged specs use the Con + MSA + Quarry Int synergy, though, and it prob wouldn't be as powerful if MSA scaled from End like some of the other EUs.
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  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Don't most (if not all) Energy Unlocks scale already scale on Rec in addition to one other superstat? Granted in most cases, Rec's scaling is secondary to the other stat (Overdrive is the one EU that seems to scale more on Rec than it's other stat).
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  • tilartatilarta Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Yeah, I'm not okay with basing an Energy Unlock intended for Brick off Recovery.
    From my point of view, Recovery is the overused stat in the game, which is one of the reasons I wanted to do something different this time, just for a variation.

    But I would think any melee build (including Martial Arts) would be using STR anyway.
    So both Brick and Martial Arts benefit from STR based Energy Unlocks.
    Heck, even my Power Armor characters spec STR, because Laser Sword is a Melee Weapon!

    Also, given my analysis of this problem, the majority of the issue is that it's been made difficult by forcing Brick to be subordinate to some other framework.
    So it would just compound the error by making Brick's Energy Unlock truly universal.


    If you want more Energy Unlocks specific to some build you have in mind, just follow selphea's idea and go to the Suggestion Box to make a thread detailing what you want.

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  • rugrothrumborrugrothrumbor Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    How is THIS even an argument? Con is a set focused stat for Brick. Con isn't a set focused stat for Darkness.

    Energy unlock powers should just be based on Recovery, Endurance and maybe Intelligence. At the most, based on stats that aren't focused stats in the set.

    You need to stop making suggestions that seem heavily biased to making your builds more viable while leaving others behind.


    In general, if you have energy problems in your build than get a power that offers energy. If you have energy problems get a Form or a Passive that helps it. If you don't want to get those get more Rec, Int or End. If you can't do THAT rank up your Energy Builder.

    If you can't even do that than your build doesn't work.

    Explain what is the problem? Except energy unlock powers are not based on Rec, End and Int, there's Spirit Reverberation (Con), Killer Instinct (Ego), Hunter's Instinct (Ego). Before there was Concentration I could easily have said toggle powers should be based on Dex and Str, but here we have Concentration as well. MSA scales on Int which is a focused stat for Gadgeteering. Overdrive scales on Int which is a focused stat for Power Armor. Killer Instinct scales by Ego a focused stat for Munitions, Hunter's Instinct scales by Ego a focused stat for Archery. Also who says Con can't become a focused stat for Darkness?

    I repeat how is your argument that there are other powers that scale on Con in anyway an argument? What are these powers, Ego Surge (Nimble Mind), Spirit Reverberation and Defiance? Defiance is actually handicapped by scaling by Con instead of Super Stats and Spirit Reverberation is set for a specific setup. What does that even mean that there are too many powers scaling by Con when only one of them is cherry picked on other builds?

    If we talk about Juggernaut (Con) I can say the same thing like you said about getting energy from other sources, just stack up Con and take Force of Will which scales by secondary super stats anyway.
  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,770 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Iirc, there is a spec in Sentinel tree that grants energy every time a heal over time ticks, and regeneration would count. I'm unable to verify this as I am away. If you have room in your build, that's something to look at.
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