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Fix permanent active defense please!

eva1988eva1988 Posts: 183 Arc User
edited January 2015 in Suggestions Box
I do not think it should be possible to have an active defense on 100% of the time, but unfortunately it is possible.

By using specializations, gear,powers and the intelligence stat, it is easy to shorten the cooldown of an active defense to the point where you can rotate between two of them, and have them on at all times.

I think that this being possible spoils the game on many different levels, as it more or less makes the user invulnerable. It removes any sense of challenge from the game in terms of PVE, overall making the game feel less rewarding for their accomplishments, and for those that they team with. In PVP it results in the game being completely one sided against those who don't use active defense rotation, or results in no one dying due multiple users of active defense rotation.

Overall it just feels like cheating is taking place for those on the receiving end of builds like this in PVP, or teamed up with them in PVE, not fun.

"But to do that surely they'd have to lose out in other areas of their build, and devote everything to reducing cooldowns?"

It has become so easy to reduce these cooldowns, that it can be done without really losing anything from your build, allowing people to devote the rest of their build to damage, healing, or more defense(not that they'd need it ofcourse as they are pretty much unkillable with just the active defense rotation alone).


I can think of a few solutions to this problem :

1. Greatly extend the cooldown between the use of active defense, and make it immune to cooldown reduction effects, for example, the intelligence stat.

2.Only allow one active defense to be selected(similar to energy unlocks).

3. Make active defense immune to all cooldown reducing effects from stats, gear, and specializations.

4. Greatly extend the cooldown of active defense powers

5. Combining any of the above in any way that they are compatible with each other.

Please consider fixing this (if i'm lucky enough to have a developer reading this)
Post edited by eva1988 on
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Comments

  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Stuffing up Freeform builds since Mid 2011
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  • r9xchaosr9xchaos Posts: 533
    edited April 2014
    I agree with this.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    And some more discussion about this you can find here.
    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=256811
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    eva1988 wrote: »
    I do not think it should be possible to have an active defense on 100% of the time, but unfortunately it is possible.

    By using specializations, gear,powers and the intelligence stat, it is easy to shorten the cooldown of an active defense to the point where you can rotate between two of them, and have them on at all times.

    I think that this being possible spoils the game on many different levels, as it more or less makes the user invulnerable. It removes any sense of challenge from the game in terms of PVE, overall making the game feel less rewarding for their accomplishments, and for those that they team with. In PVP it results in the game being completely one sided against those who don't use active defense rotation, or results in no one dying due multiple users of active defense rotation.

    Overall it just feels like cheating is taking place for those on the receiving end of builds like this in PVP, or teamed up with them in PVE, not fun.

    "But to do that surely they'd have to lose out in other areas of their build, and devote everything to reducing cooldowns?"

    It has become so easy to reduce these cooldowns, that it can be done without really losing anything from your build, allowing people to devote the rest of their build to damage, healing, or more defense(not that they'd need it ofcourse as they are pretty much unkillable with just the active defense rotation alone).


    I can think of a few solutions to this problem :

    1. Greatly extend the cooldown between the use of active defense, and make it immune to cooldown reduction effects, for example, the intelligence stat.

    2.Only allow one active defense to be selected(similar to energy unlocks).

    3. Make active defense immune to all cooldown reducing effects from stats, gear, and specializations.

    4. Greatly extend the cooldown of active defense powers

    5. Combining any of the above in any way that they are compatible with each other.

    Please consider fixing this (if i'm lucky enough to have a developer reading this)

    Congratulations you found the solution to NOTHING!

    Every single time I see one of those threads I wonder how badly they lost in PvP.

    You know what? It does not matter what people can do, it really does not. If you can't understand that then you are just butt-hurt that someone somewhere in CO has a more powerful build than you.

    This so called FIX will do nothing but make some builds impossible + make people switch to bubbles and self healing to get the same results. Don't delude yourself into believing that your fixes are better than anyone's.

    You are doing the same thing as all the others namely, request something to be "fixed" in the name of "balance". First and foremost you can't be invulnerable no matter what you do and the recent PvE/Alerts are based on gimmicks which bypass any defenses you have.

    What does it matter if someone does X? Play the game the way you want to and others play it the way they want to.

    This entire thread is a PvP nerf thread disguised with PvE elements. It does not matter how powerful you are in PvE as for PvP, that thing will never be balanced. Any attempt of PvP balance is nothing but a pipe dream and a waste of developer time and resources.

    It does not matter what is nerfed, at the end of the day there will always be a better/best build no matter what/how much you nerf things.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    721.gif

    Woah Woah Woah! Hold on there, that's A LOT OF reasons for "PvE" stuff and your Suggestions of fixing are outright punishing

    I smell PvP Shenanigans for the creation of this Post!
    eva1988 wrote: »
    1. Greatly extend the cooldown between the use of active defense, and make it immune to cooldown reduction effects, for example, the intelligence stat.

    Well they DO need to have 30 Seconds Cooldown inbeetween, but currently the 30 seconds is being effected by Cooldown Reduction and I think this is the only thing which need to get Fixed! THIS IS THE ONLY THING I SUPPORT!
    eva1988 wrote: »
    2.Only allow one active defense to be selected(similar to energy unlocks).

    This actually Could Work

    BUT

    That would up people with Fragile Passive (see Personal Force Field? It may be defensive passive but if the PFF reach ZERO you are vulnerable to everything
    eva1988 wrote: »
    3. Make active defense immune to all cooldown reducing effects from stats, gear, and specializations.

    NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE

    What do you want, to make it useless as Master of the Mind who doesn't get effected by Cooldown reduction? (seriously what the hell is wrong with this Power? It's basically Kill Me Now)
    eva1988 wrote: »
    4. Greatly extend the cooldown of active defense powers

    So Much Nope

    Yeah I am sure the Glass Cannons with only 1 AD who accidently get the Agro in Gravitar would LOVE Thing suggestion! LOVELY
    eva1988 wrote: »
    5. Combining any of the above in any way that they are compatible with each other.

    Where did the whole Be the (Super)-Hero you want to be went?
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • notyuunotyuu Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    While you do have a point about the permanent AD builds, your "fixes" are more than a little OP.
    eva1988 wrote: »
    1. Greatly extend the cooldown between the use of active defense, and make it immune to cooldown reduction effects, for example, the intelligence stat.

    The first half of this one is just a plain bad idea, the second half might not be so, if the CD reduction immunity is only applied to that 30 second global AD CD that happens when you use one...but we all know how buggy that'll be
    eva1988 wrote: »
    2.Only allow one active defense to be selected(similar to energy unlocks).
    Viable, but would mess up a fair few FF builds, after all, not all FFs that take more than one AD are perma AD users.
    eva1988 wrote: »
    3. Make active defense immune to all cooldown reducing effects from stats, gear, and specializations.
    AD have a base CD of 90 seconds, if you take away any effect of CD reduction onto that then you might as well make the powers useless, a better idea would be to make the 30 second global timer on CDs unaffected CD reduction
    eva1988 wrote: »
    4. Greatly extend the cooldown of active defense powers
    The CDs on ADs are already 90 seconds before any reduction, that's a long **** time for a power, no matter what way you cut it this is just a bad idea
    eva1988 wrote: »
    Please consider fixing this (if i'm lucky enough to have a developer reading this)
    Your "fixes" will most likely BREAK ADs to the point of uselessness, and we already have enough powers in CO that were broken to the point of uselessness last thing we need is for the devs to break more of them, so all in all, my final suggestion is this.

    to fix the perma AD builds they should make the 30 global CD on ADs UNEFFECTED by CD reduction of any kind, and maybe put some kind of cap on CD reduction, because as far as i've seen so far it doesn't really have one as per say, sure it's got the diminishing returns, but they don't quite cut it (obviously , we've got people whining about it) so instilling a cap might just help, but nothing too extreme.
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  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 1,076 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The 30 second Global Cooldown for AO/ADs shouldn't be affected by anything other than Nanobot Swarm (which itself is in dire need of repairs).

    That's the ONLY fix needed, imo. (For others ... since I don't have any characters that even come close to chaining AO/ADs. I think I have maybe 2 characters that have more than ONE AO/AD, but I rarely pop them any ways.)
    .

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  • dancingfatkid101dancingfatkid101 Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I agree fully to all 4 responses above this one, the only thing that probably needs a fix is the 30 second cool down in between using AD's and AO's since being able to trigger another AO or AD after your next is a bit blorked but, don't mess with the Cool down times on the powers themselves.
  • eva1988eva1988 Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Congratulations you found the solution to NOTHING!

    Every single time I see one of those threads I wonder how badly they lost in PvP.

    You know what? It does not matter what people can do, it really does not. If you can't understand that then you are just butt-hurt that someone somewhere in CO has a more powerful build than you.

    This so called FIX will do nothing but make some builds impossible + make people switch to bubbles and self healing to get the same results. Don't delude yourself into believing that your fixes are better than anyone's.

    You are doing the same thing as all the others namely, request something to be "fixed" in the name of "balance". First and foremost you can't be invulnerable no matter what you do and the recent PvE/Alerts are based on gimmicks which bypass any defenses you have.

    What does it matter if someone does X? Play the game the way you want to and others play it the way they want to.

    This entire thread is a PvP nerf thread disguised with PvE elements. It does not matter how powerful you are in PvE as for PvP, that thing will never be balanced. Any attempt of PvP balance is nothing but a pipe dream and a waste of developer time and resources.

    It does not matter what is nerfed, at the end of the day there will always be a better/best build no matter what/how much you nerf things.

    You're making a lot of assumptions about me. Perhaps I should make some about you?

    Obviously you're someone who uses active defense rotation and is afraid that it will be fixed, meaning you'll have to actually play the game properly for a change.
    This so called FIX will do nothing but make some builds impossible + make people switch to bubbles and self healing to get the same results. Don't delude yourself into believing that your fixes are better than anyone's.

    Self healing and bubbles do not give the same results, bubbles and heals have to be cast frequently to maintain defense,which will detract from your offense; unlike active defense, which allows a fifteen second gap between each activation. Also, i'm quite certain the majority would agree that permanent active defense are more problematic, and have less counters (in pve and pvp), than bubbles and heals.

    The only builds this change would make impossible, are permanent active defense builds. Any build can quite easily be played without an active defense, it is in no way "impossible".
    It does not matter what is nerfed, at the end of the day there will always be a better/best build no matter what/how much you nerf things

    Yes, but whatever is "nerfed" will always be worse than whatever comes after it, so it would actually improve the game a lot by doing so. As long as it isn't done to an extreme, where everything ends up the same, which is not what i'm asking.
    It does not matter how powerful you are in PvE

    Actually, it depends who you ask. For me i find it boring playing in a team where you are essentially a dead weight because there is one person(or a few) on your team who have permanent active defense rotation, coupled with high damage output. They do not need anyone to take aggro, they do not need anyone for damage output, and they do not need anyone to heal them.

    Another reason, is that it removes the challenge, and without the challenge, there is no real feeling of accomplishment, and i think many would agree with me when i say this game is lacking in the challenge department. No challenge, no fun for me.

    Of course these are just my reasons, but i'm sure many others probably share them.
    you are just butt-hurt that someone somewhere in CO has a more powerful build than you.

    Lots of people have better builds than me, and no i'm not "butt-hurt"(whatever that means) about it. I know about active defense rotation, and i know how it works. if it were my build that I was worried about, wouldn't I also be using it? It has nothing to do with someone having a better build than me, and more to do with near unkillable builds spoiling the fun for others on many levels of the game.
    Any attempt of PvP balance is nothing but a pipe dream and a waste of developer time and resources.

    Making it so multiple legacy devices couldn't be used at one time improved PVP balance. So, no, any attempt at PVP balance is not a "pipe dream", as it has already been proven. If your argument is that some other PVP imbalance will just rise up to take its place, which it probably will, but it will never be as bad as the one before it .(unless cryptic make more changes that result in new imbalances).

    Whether or not it is a waste of developer time once again depends on who you ask. Personally, i think PVP could use more attention, and so do others; but that isn't the focus of this thread.
    First and foremost you can't be invulnerable no matter what you do and the recent PvE/Alerts are based on gimmicks which bypass any defenses you have.

    I don't think a few gimmicks justify invulnerability in most content the game has to offer.
  • smashykinssmashykins Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Perma ADs are a viable way to counter AOs with minimal investment and effort. Its also a way for a player to ignore their defenses altogether if they choose to do so.

    But perma AD is only half the problem. There's also perma AO and typically a 3rd "AD" on PvPers in the form of ascension. Without using AD rotation in your build, by the time you've built a character to survive the onslaught from a perma AO character (who is probably going to have perma ADs as well :D ), you'll find that you'll be spending your time actively protecting and healing yourself and not getting enough time mash attacks whereas the rotater can just mash attacks without actively paying attention to defending themselves. They need only leave the fight when they experience a short gap in their rotation.

    Neither of these classes of powers should be able to have cooldowns so short that if a player experiences any downtime they simply need to vanish into teleport to catch a breath for the next rotation. Right now, ADs, and AOs are virtual passives once rotated and max speed travels from teleport and ascension filling the safety gap if there is any.

    As for PvE, ADs and AOs are so powerful that any of the OP's proposed changes would definitely not nerf them into "uselessness". If you find them to be "useless" in light of the proposed changes (I even like the idea of a charge time, maybe we should propose that if we still want to allow people to rotate) there is a chance then that you were relying on them too much.

    Finally, there are playstyles that call for not leaving teleport unless an AD and AO are ready.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    1. I'm here since closed beta so your l2p comment is so much BS it's funny.

    2. AD nerf fixes nothing and will only make things worse. You can't just go and change a game mechanic as you please without considering all the repercussions. A lot of builds and people will be affected by those changes and the benefit is only to a few self entitled people who can't get over themselves OR the more absurd argument of "I'm NOT NEEDED Q.Q".

    Nobody is needed in CO, if you don't get that much then you have not really played CO. The whole point/charm of CO is that you can make whatever you want (within some limitations). If someone is more powerful than you and makes you feel weak then find a weaker team or make a better build.

    Why are all you nerf herders so blind and don't understand that those changes are bound to backlash badly. If you care about PvP then understand that balance will never happen because PvP is not about balance but about the most OP FOTM build you can have ATM. PvP has no rules/morals and if you PvP to win you don't care about what build you make as long as you WIN.

    PvE is .... seriously what have ppl done to you that you need to nerf them in PvE? What does it matter that ppl can't be killed with some extreme build with AD rotation?

    To me your entire post screams butt-hurt/jealous/Q.Q. Only selfish people want to make things worse for others because they themselves feel they should be "NEEDED".
  • smashykinssmashykins Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    nightr0d wrote: »
    What does it matter that ppl can't be killed with some extreme build with AD rotation?

    wat

    /10 chars
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,589 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    nightr0d wrote: »
    AD nerf fixes nothing and will only make things worse. You can't just go and change a game mechanic as you please without considering all the repercussions. A lot of builds and people will be affected by those changes and the benefit is only to a few self entitled people who can't get over themselves

    Changing AD cooldown to shared will only hurt the players who abuse continuous AD rotation. Those number of players are far fewer than you think.

    The benefit ensures that ATs aren't far behind and that players who don't dig into Int (an arguably OP stat) are on even ground. Going into constant Unbreakable and Masterful Dodge mode makes taking tank passives almost pointless. Taking them WITH tank passives makes you impossible to kill.

    These changes will force players to rely on their teammates or choose defensive passives and blocks or better playing skill. The overall goal of Champions in particular is to play content with players. What is the point of teams if one player can solo everything?

    With AD rotation, you can solo everything including content you aren't supposed to solo.


    And for those who say "But this game is already too easy." Take a look at your build and you will see why. Take a look at what you are doing to exploit stackable ADs and SEE WHY.

    You are gaming the system. This change will only hurt players who are gaming the system. And that population doesn't even match a fraction of a percent of the players. The mass population of players who see FFs do this will feel less encouraged to play a game where there are players who god mode the whole game. That hurts the game being taken seriously by potential new players. That is why PvP is dead and will never be updated by Cryptic.
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Changing AD cooldown to shared will only hurt the players who abuse continuous AD rotation. Those number of players are far fewer than you think.

    The benefit ensures that ATs aren't far behind and that players who don't dig into Int (an arguably OP stat) are on even ground. Going into constant Unbreakable and Masterful Dodge mode makes taking tank passives almost pointless. Taking them WITH tank passives makes you impossible to kill.

    These changes will force players to rely on their teammates or choose defensive passives and blocks or better playing skill. The overall goal of Champions in particular is to play content with players. What is the point of teams if one player can solo everything?

    With AD rotation, you can solo everything including content you aren't supposed to solo.


    And for those who say "But this game is already too easy." Take a look at your build and you will see why. Take a look at what you are doing to exploit stackable ADs and SEE WHY.

    You are gaming the system. This change will only hurt players who are gaming the system. And that population doesn't even match a fraction of a percent of the players. The mass population of players who see FFs do this will feel less encouraged to play a game where there are players who god mode the whole game. That hurts the game being taken seriously by potential new players. That is why PvP is dead and will never be updated by Cryptic.

    The changes proposed don't affect only those who abuse AD, they affect everyone using ADs. Look at what is proposed and tell me how they will only affect those who use AD rotation.

    Again, those changes are only scratching the surface and they are only an issue in PvP. Once AD are nerfed then you need to nerf AO and then Healing then something else.

    Nerfing never ends all those nerfs are because someone somewhere had a build which uses those ADs rotation.

    Why are ppl so fixated in "fixing" and issue which occurs only for a very few number of people who "abuse" the system to gain what ? AD rotation? I don't see this being in any form or fashion a problem for PvE.

    The "ppl solo X which is not intended" argument is used all over the place. There is no rule on what can and cannot solo in CO. By all standards we should not be able to survive the Training Grouds with a 5 Man Team on Very Hard but we do. That's the lvl of nerfing that we need to fall into the "intended" bracket.

    Everyone comes up with solutions but nobody realizes that none of those "solutions" will fix people abusing the system in some form or the other.

    PPL are QQ over a build that is extremely specific in terms of stats/gear/specs etc... and what everyone to bend over and take the nerf because of 1 build that is possible? This SCREAMS SELFISH/SELF ENTITLED to me.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Looks like you are in the minority, even here, nightr0d.

    Simply making the shared cooldown non-reducible at 30 seconds would fix this glaring issue.

    Before CDR became so easy to come by, ADs were meant as once per fight (or a few times per fight against a big boss) methods of saving your bacon. With the current state of CDR, they have become almost another passive.
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,065 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Before they remotely even think about touching Active Defensives, they should consider why some people use TWO and I am referring to this usage outside of PvP, because as it is well known, PvP is unbalanced and the freeform system allows for a lot of combinations which produce varied results.

    Personal Force Field was mentioned earlier and YES. Before touching Active Defensives, I'd STRONGLY suggest devoting time and energy to FULLY fixing this passive. I only run with two AD's because they help me to keep myself alive in high damage environments.

    I agree with allowing the shared cool down to be a non-reducible 30 second time period.

    However that being said, I would very much like to see an actual FIX for Personal Force Field and other passives which may be seen as fragile.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,065 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    avianos wrote: »
    NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE

    What do you want, to make it useless as Master of the Mind who doesn't get effected by Cooldown reduction? (seriously what the hell is wrong with this Power? It's basically Kill Me Now)

    MoTM used to be pretty cool but you know...naysayers got hold of it so it became a nigh-useless/highly situational power.
    avianos wrote: »
    Where did the whole Be the (Super)-Hero you want to be went?

    I think the being the hero you want to be is fairly relative in it's meaning to people, which is why there is so much discussion and disagreement between people about nerfs and buffs etc. But that's an entirely different matter.

    I've already stated my view on the OP's request. Whilst it has come from a place of concern it doesn't seem that well thought out in some instances.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    MoTM used to be pretty cool but you know...naysayers got hold of it so it became a nigh-useless/highly situational power.


    Awww I actually wanted to use this power because it would fit with my Theme, but seeing how Useless it is I avoid it :frown:

    Well damn those people and I blame DEVs for Nerfing it, Really bad Judgement there! it should have been like a new ULTIMATE power
    It doesn't stand it's name at all :/
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • eva1988eva1988 Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    For those saying that extending the active defense cooldown would make the power useless; i think you're wrong, and i'll explain why.

    The power still maintains its core function of providing high defense for fifteen seconds. Even if the cooldown were locked at two minutes, i'm pretty sure it would still be worth taking. It should be something saved for an emergency, not something you rely on for every encounter, and i'm pretty sure (although completely going off assumption) that when the idea of active defense was first implemented, that was the intention behind it.
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Just make the 30 second shared cooldown immune to cooldown reduction, that would return it to being as intended.
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  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    eva1988 wrote: »
    For those saying that extending the active defense cooldown would make the power useless; i think you're wrong, and i'll explain why.

    The power still maintains its core function of providing high defense for fifteen seconds. Even if the cooldown were locked at two minutes, i'm pretty sure it would still be worth taking. It should be something saved for an emergency, not something you rely on for every encounter, and i'm pretty sure (although completely going off assumption) that when the idea of active defense was first implemented, that was the intention behind it.

    Saving MD for yellow bubbles in Gravitar is one of the biggest contributors to a character having a 0-death run. If ADs are extended to 2 minutes, Gravitar's yellow bubble cooldown should also be extended to 2 minutes, because MD + Block is one of the very few reliable ways to survive it for non-tanks.

    People with R3 Super Speed or Super Jump have jumped cleanly out of a yellow bubble, only to find themselves dead seconds later due to lag. Characters with slower travel powers like Flight have it much worse.

    Any nerf that happens to ADs should account for all situations that absolutely require their usage.
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,589 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    "Oh look. That person is tanking Frosticus without taking hardly any damage...Without a defensive passive?" Eyes AD rotation. "Tanking without even trying. Gotcha."

    This scenario can be replaced with Shadow Colossus, Therakiel, Warlord fire patches, mobs of Mega Ds...
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 3,089 Cryptic Developer
    edited April 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    Saving MD for yellow bubbles in Gravitar is one of the biggest contributors to a character having a 0-death run. If ADs are extended to 2 minutes, Gravitar's yellow bubble cooldown should also be extended to 2 minutes, because MD + Block is one of the very few reliable ways to survive it for non-tanks.

    People with R3 Super Speed or Super Jump have jumped cleanly out of a yellow bubble, only to find themselves dead seconds later due to lag. Characters with slower travel powers like Flight have it much worse.

    Any nerf that happens to ADs should account for all situations that absolutely require their usage.

    I really don't understand how people die to the yellow bubble. She gives you ample warning in the form of the hold bubble. Once she hits 1/3, her yellow bubble is always after a hold bubble. So if a hold bubble pops up, start moving.
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    kaizerin wrote: »
    I really don't understand how people die to the yellow bubble. She gives you ample warning in the form of the hold bubble. Once she hits 1/3, her yellow bubble is always after a hold bubble. So if a hold bubble pops up, start moving.

    Sometimes, or oftentimes, depending, the hold bubble happens to someone in the air or behind you :p
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 3,089 Cryptic Developer
    edited April 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    Sometimes, or oftentimes, depending, the hold bubble happens to someone in the air or behind you :p

    I think that becomes your fault then, should be paying attention :p
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    kaizerin wrote: »
    I think that becomes your fault then, should be paying attention :p

    Actually I do and it still hits :o On my healer, sometimes I hold block and run out of a blue, then I end up at the center of a yellow, pop MD and run more and block at the last second. Even when I'm clean out of the bubble I still get a dodgeblock. That's really where the value of AD lies. Even when the game engine hates you, you still live.
    "Oh look. That person is tanking Frosticus without taking hardly any damage...Without a defensive passive?" Eyes AD rotation. "Tanking without even trying. Gotcha."

    This scenario can be replaced with Shadow Colossus, Therakiel, Warlord fire patches, mobs of Mega Ds...

    Does this actually happen? Even with MD ice daggers do very significant damage to passives without ice resist, and they should punch right through Unbreakable. Short of Ice Form, Stormbringer, AoPM and maybe Id Mastery and Way of the Warrior, I don't think any non-defensive passive can tank Frosty, even with MD rotation. Unless there's a lot of outside help like bubbles, AoRP, Ebon Sigils etc, or they were doing the 100ft (now 120ft) exploit.

    Not that I'm defending AD rotation, just curious.
  • xcaligaxxcaligax Posts: 1,096 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You guys are all silly. The only fix to active defense that is needed is making it all Caliga style.

    Caliga style: You glare and take everything to the face, and live.

    I have spoken.

    caligastamp.png
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    xcaligax wrote: »
    You guys are all silly. The only fix to active defense that is needed is making it all Caliga style.

    Caliga style: You glare and take everything to the face, and live.

    I have spoken.

    caligastamp.png

    I'll buy it when I see Caliga soloing a Mega-D Terminator :tongue:
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I feel giving CON-HP scaling a Hard-Cap can solve most of this problem, because, we can defeat someone using double Active Defense with low-HP not so hard.
    Someone very tough, include ME, are always having two Active Defense and also over 10K HP. ME is OP so Nerf ME. o3o
  • xcaligaxxcaligax Posts: 1,096 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    monaahiru wrote: »
    I feel giving CON-HP scaling a Hard-Cap can solve most of this problem, because, we can defeat someone using double Active Defense with low-HP not so hard.
    Someone very tough, include ME, are always having two Active Defense and also over 10K HP. ME is OP so Nerf ME. o3o

    I actually agree to this. Having a hard cap on Con MAY fix this, or atleast give con a DR curve.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    monaahiru wrote: »
    I feel giving CON-HP scaling a Hard-Cap can solve most of this problem, because, we can defeat someone using double Active Defense with low-HP not so hard.
    Someone very tough, include ME, are always having two Active Defense and also over 10K HP. ME is OP so Nerf ME. o3o

    Maybe I am not understanding what you mean, but how I read this is that you propose to leave the AD/AO chaining as is, and make people more squishy just by lowering their health.

    If so, then I fully disagree.
    You suggestion may work for pvp, but only to shift the relative optimal build slightly to some other point. With CO being much more focused on pve the base systems need to be designed to work in pve first and foremost. Luckily however the AD/AO chaining one is not only a pvp issue, pve is affected at least as much, if not more.
    For pve you hardly need any health to be unkillable while rotating MD/unbeakable/egosurge/ascension combined with a few heals. On the other hand, if you have low defenses even with 10k health you can die very easy.
    The issues with CON are not so much the health, it is that you hardly need to make sacrifices to get that health. You will still do very high damage if you stack mostly CON, and that is for a big part caused by ego surge.
    By fixing AD/AO you will see people needing to make much more choices what they want to do. Do they want to be an unkillable tank, fine but their damage will take a hit. They want to have over the top dps, fine but their survivability will not be great, etc. If course there is still the balance issues in individual power, so there will still be plenty of issue left, but it will help a lot.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    A Constitution DR should still happen, though, even if its not a strong one. There's no way the devs can be expected to 'fairly' balance random raid dmg w/ such a large potential player health range. Either you make it so 17k+ players are challenged and 6-8k heroes are left as floor paste, or you make it workable to the lower end but never challenge the Con/HP stackers. This wouldn't be an issue if all high HP heroes were exclusively Tanks that could concretely control aggro and direct most dmg to them, but CO simply is just not that kind of game.

    Only other option is to riddle encounters w/ more pass/fail mechanics that ignore health and defenses, but I doubt that would be popular (its poor design to overly rely on those types of mechanics anyways).
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Con plays by different rules from every other stat.
    • If you want crit, Gambler's has a bigger contribution than SS Dex.
    • If you want CD redux, Impact Prisms have a bigger contribution than SS Int.
    • If you want healing, Sentinel Brooch has a bigger contribution than SS Pre, short of Compassion which SS Rec can match.
    • If you want HP, Con has a bigger impact than just about anything else you can throw into your HP pool, short of PFF.

    At the same time, Con governs defense, but as a secondary SS, can contribute more to offense than superstatting an another offensive stat due to Juggernaut + The Best Defense + Aggressive Stance and Nimble Mind. On the other hand, no offensive SS can contribute more to defense than Con.

    HP needs to follow the same rules as other stats, which means there needs to be more routes to HP than superstat choice, and superstat Con should have a smaller impact than it currently does.

    See here for what I think should be done. DR is already inherent in HP: At 4955 HP, 825 HP from an R5 mod is a 16.6% gain; at 10,000 HP, 825 HP is an 8.25% gain. What needs to be done is simply to lower the amount it gives period. It's not like Damage Resistance or Dodge/Avoid which does need a DR formula.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Health is the classic CO problem, one stat isn't so much a problem, it is just when you stack all the health bonus options that things get silly. And then there is AoPM that amplifies all possible balance issues. With 400 con you only get to about 11k health in hybrid role, without AoPM that is a big part of your stat points. That is not such a problem in my opinion if it meant you would lose out on other things.

    If you want to reign in the maximum health by lowering the health on CON, it will just force all tanks to go for the options that end up with >20K health at this time, just to be able to tank Frosticus.
    I would prefer a DR on health itself, something like 10k is a nice point to start that.
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    aiqa wrote: »
    Health is the classic CO problem, one stat isn't so much a problem, it is just when you stack all the health bonus options that things get silly. And then there is AoPM that amplifies all possible balance issues. With 400 con you only get to about 11k health in hybrid role, without AoPM that is a big part of your stat points. That is not such a problem in my opinion if it meant you would lose out on other things.

    If you want to reign in the maximum health by lowering the health on CON, it will just force all tanks to go for the options that end up with >20K health at this time, just to be able to tank Frosticus.
    I would prefer a DR on health itself, something like 12k is a nice point to start that.

    Run the math on my suggestion before you knock it :o

    5200 Base HP
    +700 Vigi
    +1400 1x Growth Ammy (Assume Legion's Avoid with 1x Gambler)
    +(400 x 7) = 2800 Con
    ============
    10,100 Hybrid HP
    x 1.25 = 12,625 HP Tank Role HP. Still enough to tank Frosty.
    ============

    On the other hand, lets say a typical Unleashed AT without statting Con:

    5200 Base HP
    +700 Vigi
    + 1400 1x Growth Ammy (Assume Legion's Avoid with 1x Gambler)
    ============
    7,300 HP without superstat Con
    ============

    The only thing is it changes the meta so that Growth Ammy is actually worth slotting.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    Run the math on my suggestion before you knock it :o

    5200 Base HP
    +700 Vigi
    +1400 1x Growth Ammy (Assume Legion's Avoid with 1x Gambler)
    +(400 x 7) = 2800 Con
    ============
    10,100 Hybrid HP
    x 1.25 = 12,625 HP Tank Role HP. Still enough to tank Frosty.
    ============

    On the other hand, lets say a typical Unleashed AT without statting Con:

    5200 Base HP
    +700 Vigi
    + 1400 1x Growth Ammy (Assume Legion's Avoid with 1x Gambler)
    ============
    7,300 HP without superstat Con
    ============

    The only thing is it changes the meta so that Growth Ammy is actually worth slotting.

    I started my post before you posted yours, so it wasn't actually a reply. :wink:

    12k health being enough to tank Frost, is only because you can make a healer that heals somewhere between 3k and 4k with iniquity. And with your proposal even getting there will make you lose out on a big part of your defense. Then without AD chaining, and possibly a DR on cooldown reduction....


    For now I prefer to have AD/AO chaining removed, and AOs balanced.
    I'd like to see how things work out first before adding another global nerf to tank builds on top of that.
  • smashykinssmashykins Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The reason why CO is played at two speeds, in PvE and PvP (Faceroll mobs with impunity or be one-shotted and dead) is cause even with a single AD you can access god-mode up to 50% of the time.

    Frosticus doesn't need the damage output he puts out currently if we couldn't do this. I use only 1 AD and during a Frosticus tanking session I only have to pay attention about 50% of the time...as a tank. I thought we were supposed to have more responsibility than that.

    Do we want to encourage 1-shotting as a "thoughtful" mechanic from now on? Should I be allowed to tank while half brain dead?

    The unaltered default CD on ADs is very generous, providing more god-mode (15 seconds of nigh invulnerability every 90 seconds) than most other games I've played even on an ungeared toon. Nerfing it is not going to make anything even remotely "useless".
  • blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    smashykins wrote: »
    The reason why CO is played at two speeds, in PvE and PvP (Faceroll mobs with impunity or be one-shotted and dead) is cause even with a single AD you can access god-mode up to 50% of the time.

    Frosticus doesn't need the damage output he puts out currently if we couldn't do this. I use only 1 AD and during a Frosticus tanking session I only have to pay attention about 50% of the time...as a tank. I thought we were supposed to have more responsibility than that.

    Do we want to encourage 1-shotting as a "thoughtful" mechanic from now on? Should I be allowed to tank while half brain dead?

    The unaltered default CD on ADs is very generous, providing more god-mode (15 seconds of nigh invulnerability every 90 seconds) than most other games I've played even on an ungeared toon. Nerfing it is not going to make anything even remotely "useless".

    You tell 'em smashykins!

    Personally I think 2 things should happen specifically related to ADs and AOs.

    1) shared global cooldowns for all active defenses, and no I don't mean that crappy 30 second bs which equates to 13 seconds for my build. I'm talking about all of them going on full cool down, 90 seconds base. I don't think the base should be raised though, it's fine where it is.

    2) nerf cooldown gear. There is no way around this, it needs to be balanced severely. Intelligence may also need a balance with cooldown reduction, but only slightly IMO.

    We don't need much else, this is a simple case of two extremes. Similar to con statting vs not.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    aiqa wrote: »
    Health is the classic CO problem, one stat isn't so much a problem, it is just when you stack all the health bonus options that things get silly. And then there is AoPM that amplifies all possible balance issues. With 400 con you only get to about 11k health in hybrid role, without AoPM that is a big part of your stat points. That is not such a problem in my opinion if it meant you would lose out on other things.

    If you want to reign in the maximum health by lowering the health on CON, it will just force all tanks to go for the options that end up with >20K health at this time, just to be able to tank Frosticus.
    I would prefer a DR on health itself, something like 10k is a nice point to start that.

    Sure, Constitution is just one aspect to player Health. If they did apply the DR (and I mean an imposed DR, not a natural one) to max HP as a whole then they should prob still buff HP cores and/or base health a bit. The idea is that for anyone to get to ~9-10k HP isn't too tough and doesn't sacrifice too much, but going above that takes extra effort and giving up other things (notably, significant damage and healing).

    Tank role already has an innate health boost that could be made to ignore the DR, so they still have an advantage there. I would probably rework Bulwark completely, too- cause in a DR environ its too much an advantage to non-Hybrids. Hybrids would still have lower health than the equiv Tank role (w/o AoPM, but that's not a good tanking passive anyways), but isn't that the way it should be?
    Frosticus doesn't need the damage output he puts out currently if we couldn't do this. I use only 1 AD and during a Frosticus tanking session I only have to pay attention about 50% of the time...as a tank. I thought we were supposed to have more responsibility than that.

    Do we want to encourage 1-shotting as a "thoughtful" mechanic from now on? Should I be allowed to tank while half brain dead?

    The unaltered default CD on ADs is very generous, providing more god-mode (15 seconds of nigh invulnerability every 90 seconds) than most other games I've played even on an ungeared toon. Nerfing it is not going to make anything even remotely "useless".

    Well, you obv have a healer then, cause you need to save the AD for ice prisons otherwise. No way a tank is living through a prison vs. him w/o a healer backing them or MD and on-the-ball DPS. The dmg output of Ice Dagger spam is simply too much to take non-blocked and non-dodged for more than a few seconds.

    And that's why I'm hesitant to nerf the base CD of ADs (and AO's) atm- you still should be able to have them for things like ice prison, or else such mechanics are simply unfair to the player.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You know I'm curious how those nerfs/fixes will make things more fun/enjoyable for people?

    Can anyone elaborate on that? I don't see how nerfing X and Y and Z will make things better. The only thing I'm seeing is self-entitled people who claim to do it in the name of "balance".

    If you think you are too powerful then just don't build yourself to be that powerful.

    Thins entire thread is a joke and the "balance" people talk about is just spite nothing more. What does it matter what OTHER people do and what builds they make? It only matters if you are jealous that whatever build you made is not the most powerful.

    Who really cares about what people can do? Do you sit every day looking around and comparing your build with everyone's just so you can make sure nobody is stronger than you? And if God forbid they are .... they are OP and must be nerfed?

    No matter what nefs you are asking for Cryptic will undoubtedly mess things up and only do it halfway like they always do things. The moment you start to nerf something you will need to adjust/nerf something else and so on and so forth. That will never happen. Cryptic does not work like that.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    nightr0d wrote: »
    You know I'm curious how those nerfs/fixes will make things more fun/enjoyable for people?

    Can anyone elaborate on that? I don't see how nerfing X and Y and Z will make things better. The only thing I'm seeing is self-entitled people who claim to do it in the name of "balance".

    If you think you are too powerful then just don't build yourself to be that powerful.

    Thins entire thread is a joke and the "balance" people talk about is just spite nothing more. What does it matter what OTHER people do and what builds they make? It only matters if you are jealous that whatever build you made is not the most powerful.

    Who really cares about what people can do? Do you sit every day looking around and comparing your build with everyone's just so you can make sure nobody is stronger than you? And if God forbid they are .... they are OP and must be nerfed?

    No matter what nefs you are asking for Cryptic will undoubtedly mess things up and only do it halfway like they always do things. The moment you start to nerf something you will need to adjust/nerf something else and so on and so forth. That will never happen. Cryptic does not work like that.

    Imbalance means weak powers or setups are never fielded, cause most players will not use weak things when there are much more powerful things around (understandably). It also means the devs have a much harder time balancing content for everyone w/o making it simply unfair and broken to certain builds or players, or putting too many pass/fail mechanics in each fight that effectively negate any effort to build properly.

    'Balance' doesn't just mean nerfs- it also entails buffs, but this topic isn't about game balance overall. It is specifically aimed at nerfing one aspect of it.

    And its not the player's fault if the company balances poorly- its also pessimistic to say that Cryptic has a poor track record. I'd argue the dodge nerf was good and needed for the game overall- it had the side effect of making dodge-based builds not be outshone simply by gear. Proper building should trump gearing, imo.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • smashykinssmashykins Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Well, you obv have a healer then, cause you need to save the AD for ice prisons otherwise. No way a tank is living through a prison vs. him w/o a healer backing them or MD and on-the-ball DPS. The dmg output of Ice Dagger spam is simply too much to take non-blocked and non-dodged for more than a few seconds.

    No. Not all tank styles need a healer to do Frosty. Were it not for the ice cage it'd be solo-able to some players too (though there's speculation that a pet tank could free themselves using pets, so someday we might see a solo).

    I only need DPSers to break me out of the cage. I'd rather have instant anti-hold via DPS than any amount of healing in this particular scenario. I mean it when I'm literally not thinking or being challenged close 50% of the time during that fight. That's how often a single AD is available.
  • smashykinssmashykins Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    And that's why I'm hesitant to nerf the base CD of ADs (and AO's) atm- you still should be able to have them for things like ice prison, or else such mechanics are simply unfair to the player.

    Oh and yeah unfair mechanics are why I want to see the gap between the mortals and immortals close a bit. Cryptic has abandoned their difficulty slider so they really don't have any means of balancing for min/maxers without roflstomping more conventional builds aside from looking at player powers themselves.

    Imagine all the good they could do for the various play-styles if they revisited that difficulty slider...
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,742 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    smashykins wrote: »

    I only need DPSers to break me out of the cage. I'd rather have instant anti-hold via DPS than any amount of healing in this particular scenario. I mean it when I'm literally not thinking or being challenged close 50% of the time during that fight. That's how often a single AD is available.

    You can have slow dps but a decent healer keeping you up, or little to no outside healing and quick dps for this scenario (or anything in between). And that sorta thing is fine, imo. We dun need to make things so strict that trinity play is required (meaning both tanks and healers, since there will always be dps). Overall, I agree that AD/Ascension cycling cheapens content. Its more engaging (and fun imo) to try to find ways to tank Frosty w/o regular AD uptime (sans for prisons).

    And I doubt a solo is gonna happen just cause Kenina's burst could align w/ Frosty's and then ur boned if there's a prison on top of that. Moreso, pets in general don't have great dps, save for a few of the temp ones ya can't control (you could make them better w/ AoED, but there goes ur tanking passive and/or solo). I guess if you added something like Force Eruption's dps on top it could work, but it seems like a stretch.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    monaahiru wrote: »
    o3o

    One more about my personal opinion.
    20110417221844.png

    I have two Active Defenses and also over 10K HP in my main "Peach" build but my Active Defenses are not "permanent" "chain" at all. I have a moment of "can't activate any AD" but still enough OP. I just have to activate AD when I need, so those doesn't have to be permanent. If multiple-AD got fix, I'll just replace one of them to Heal or stealth power. I think the things won't change.

    All people doing well in PvP or Rampages, are all having high amount of CON, no matter Primary or Secondary or maybe not even Super Stats but having like over 10k HP. And all people dieing in Gravitar! or Fire & Ice, are all having HP less then 8k. This means, we all have to take High-CON to enjoy End Game Contents and I feel this is ridiculous. People doing Themed build without CON can't enjoy the End Game Contents and why not?

    I made "Tank" with low CON, several AD and tested myself once. One was Inbul-build, one was LR build, both nearly permanent AD. I died very easy not even by bubbles but few shot of Gravitar's spams. In other hand, I'm doing too much awesome with my CON 510 HP 14058 AoPM build. In this AoPM build, my DPS is also awesome like as ME myself.

    But my priority isn't for winning in PvP or Rampages but want to enjoy CO with everyone.
    So nerf ME. o3o
  • smashykinssmashykins Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    You can have slow dps but a decent healer keeping you up, or little to no outside healing and quick dps for this scenario (or anything in between). And that sorta thing is fine, imo. We dun need to make things so strict that trinity play is required (meaning both tanks and healers, since there will always be dps). Overall, I agree that AD/Ascension cycling cheapens content. Its more engaging (and fun imo) to try to find ways to tank Frosty w/o regular AD uptime (sans for prisons).

    And I doubt a solo is gonna happen just cause Kenina's burst could align w/ Frosty's and then ur boned if there's a prison on top of that. Moreso, pets in general don't have great dps, save for a few of the temp ones ya can't control (you could make them better w/ AoED, but there goes ur tanking passive and/or solo). I guess if you added something like Force Eruption's dps on top it could work, but it seems like a stretch.

    Well I wouldn't doubt soloability just yet. The community is creative! Once you achieve Frosticus-readiness Kenina's damage becomes ignorable; if you can reach them both you can tank them both at the same time. Kenina's 1-shot just requires that you stand still, that's easily dodged. Lead tempest could reach and do enough damage to both crystals. Really the only obstacle to successful soloing is freeing yourself from the frosty cage before the 1-shot timer ends. Someone's going to figure out how to break themselves out of the cage eventually. Pets, sigils, burn patches, and stick traps come to mind (though I don't think I can boost the damage on those powers enough on my own build to attempt this :( ). This is something I want to see before ADs get fixed :P.......and certainly after as well.

    After all we can even beat the perma-hold from Therakiel's eye beams using acro r3 w/adv. Cryptic gives us the powers to break things.

    But now we're off topic. :P
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    smashykins wrote: »
    After all we can even beat the perma-hold from Therakiel's eye beams using acro r3 w/adv. Cryptic gives us the powers to break things.

    We're off topic but let me say. Just stand in light pillar. Therakiel's eye beams hold doesn't work.
    Therakiel it self is solo'able if you are ranged and have enough CON. o3o
    Depends on build but all contents in CO are solo'able except for what we need enough queue to make it pop.
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