Hi all, something of a noob here looking for some build advice.
I like to play solo PVE - no PVP, and no teams unless the game requires it (perhaps the odd Alert etc). However after too much time playing Diablo II hardcore mode in the past, I bizarrely seem to lose interest in a character if it is ever defeated (go figure!). Hence my ideal build is a character that maximises survival above all else, while being able to deal out enough damage to progress through the game - and able to solo as much content as possible without EVER bring defeated.
I assume a tank build is mandatory, though threat generation is irrelevant for my play style. Not sure which passive would be best for max survivability though - I like the idea of regeneration, but if survival at all costs is the aim maybe lightning reflexes becomes essential to avoid spike damage from bosses? (e.g. Vanguard's tank thread
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=257841 )
Another out-there possibility is a character who can deal damage while continually blocking - i.e. based on electric shield + regen? Probably totally unviable though as I am not sure if there are other damage-dealing options while blocking (and probably sounds boring to most people, but would work for me).
Any build suggestions would be much appreciated!
Comments
.. I guess w/ the defense passive, huh?
Regen is the most hands-off and solo-friendly tank passive. It does have some synergy w/ Resurgence, but otherwise it doesn't really need anything in particular to support it (save for Constitution gearing- which helps all tank builds.. though not as much for PFF ones). Its a good overall pick, but recommended that you get some mitigation or burst healing cds since high bursts of dmg can still eat through a Regen tank.
LR is a really nice pick. Its good even out of the box, but its made much better w/ Bountiful Chi Resurgence/Resurgent Reiki (BCR/RR)- which gives you regen-like healing when dodging frequently. Flat dodge-increasing abilities or specs are recommended if you go this route, but ofc aren't essential. Its not as hands-free as Regen, though, and you can still suffer from bad RNG strings concerning dodge rates (like Regen, you'll want a larger heal or tank defense for those times).
Invuln is noteworthy for trivializing most henchman dmg when solo, but it lacks the BCR/RR synergy LR has (that's still a decent heal for Invuln, though), and you'll want to get a heal ability (BCR, Conviction, Bionic Shielding, etc) to support it. It doesn't handle big hits as well as Defiance does (and IDF as a toggle can partly mimic its dmg shield effects- w/ its own drawbacks), but its easier to use and manage.
Defiance is good when soloing too, since you won't have to worry about teammates taking aggro and depriving you of getting hit to keep it stacked up. It doesn't have the dmg shield Invuln has, or the passive healing of Regen, but it does give you a ton of extra energy w/ its Con scaling (which would be the primary reason if you wanted to take it when solo, imo). Like Invuln, you'll want a regular heal ability to go w/ it. Defiance is also the only passive you don't have to rank up at all, so you'll have 4 more adv points avail.
PFF allows you to ignore Con gearing the most of all passives, which can be nice if you want to build for more dmg but still have a form of innate protection (prob wouldn't recommend that for you, though). If you go w/ PFF, you'll want Force Sheath as a cd. Heals won't affect you as much since they don't regen the shield itself, but dodging and overall mitigation expands the life-span of the shield. For more on PFF building, ya can check out Cyrone's latest PFF thread.
AoRP is kinda the odd-one out, but its def viable as a tanking passive if you want a more healer-oriented tank that uses pets or summons w/ some Presence gearing (since ur not grouping up, the ally benefit is moot otherwise).
There are other routes of healing aside form the normal healing powers and heal cds, depending on the build: Endorphin Rush on Enrage w/ knock-heavy builds, Adren Rush in the Con PSS tree w/ high crit builds, support drones or the radiant summon, Devour Essence and Lifedrain, Illumination debuff. Prob some others I'm missing..
After that, I dunno what else to say, since its so open- esp when it comes to offense powers. Do you have a character theme or concept beyond the game-play goals, or certain spell aesthetics you like? Anything to help narrow down the field of stuff to pick from.
Pet builds could do what you describe, basically, but those don't typically work w/ a conventional tank setup, unless you go w/ AoRP and a high Presence build to also boost pet survival (so you dun have to heal or re-summon them as much). Also, pet management isn't everyone's cup of tea, and its best done in the support (healer) role anyways to manage pet energy penalties.. which lowers ur health and lowers even still ur dmg (but makes healing back up a breeze).
Any DoT-based build could also work- that's mostly be from the newer Telepathy powers. The TP DoTs also double as good debuffs for an ego-dmg based tank. Like the pet builds, it up to you if the DoT style fits how you want to play.
Otherwise, no you can't really do significant dmg while continually blocking. Things like Retaliation/Guard, Ebon Void's adv, or Force Sheath give you bonuses for taking the time out to block, though.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
*EDIT*
I suppose Palliate (Absolve) might do the trick as well, but honestly, although it was in my leveling build I could never seem to get the timing down as easily as Unbreakable.
I guess the design goals are:
- coping with both mob and boss damage without ever reaching 0hp
- maxing defence and hit points wherever possible
- reliable self-healing available at all times
- some reliable means of escaping combat if thing look dire
- enough dps to solo all (?) PVE content if possible. PVP and groups not a priority at all.
You are right, the biggest issue by far is the passive. I want to be able to survive both multiple mob attacks, and big boss spike damage, with defeat never an option. Of the two I suspect it is the boss damage that would more likely be the killer. Which passive will give best survivability in a heavy-hitting boss fight? Regen + IDF + maybe some form of heightened dodge? LR + IDF + BCR/RR? Or Defiance maybe with a strategy of trying to block first to build up the defense buff? If none stands out over the others in terms of meeting the design goals, then I might be tempted to try a LR dodge tank first, then drop back to one of the other options if I hit problems or if it doesn't suit my playstyle.
After that - I would prefer not a knockback-type brick build. I like the Devour Essence idea, paired with a maintain-type AOE (Epidemic? maybe Hurricane?) so maybe a demonic or magical undead character theme: drains and poison/magic themed attacks. I guess this could either be a Regenning lich/ghoul undead, a fast-moving LR imp, or a rock-skinned Defiance gargoyle, depending on the passive.
Actually this is starting to have a lot of similarity with your build I think mimii...
I guess if never reaching 0hp is the goal, maxing CON would be essential, so it would be the primary superstat? (unless DEX needs priority for a LR build?). And INT/REC/END as the third stat?
Good suggestion too mimii about Unbreakable. I've never used Palliate/Absolve, does it give a guaranteed drop-out-of-combat-and-escape power? A foolproof escape-combat power if one exists would be really important - Teleport would give this to me to some degree, but would Palliate be better?
Any further help you could give for a build to start me off flowcyto would be awesome :biggrin:
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Master
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Agile
Level 12: Enduring
Level 15: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Impresario
Level 21: Survival Training
Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts (Toxin Overload)
Level 1: Infernal Blast
Level 6: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Phlebotomist, Accelerated Metabolism)
Level 8: Lightning Reflexes (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Epidemic (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Overdrive
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 20: Inertial Dampening Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Form of the Master (Rank 2, Storm's Eye Prana)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge (Rank 2)
Level 29: Parry (The Elusive Monk)
Level 32: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers
Level 38: Defile
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2)
Level 35: Flight
Specializations:
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Brush It Off (2/2)
Dexterity: Evasion (2/2)
Dexterity: Quick Reflexes (3/3)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Defensive Expertise (3/3)
Protector: Resolute (2/3)
Sentry: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (3/3)
Sentry: Persevere (2/2)
Sentry: Reinforce (2/2)
Mastery: Protector Mastery (1/1)
I haven't used many of these powers before, so I am expecting there are major flaws with this. I'm also unsure how the many dodge-related powers synergise, so this is mostly guesswork. I ended up using Masterful Dodge instead of Unbreakable, but not sure if that will address the issue you raised mimii. And I totally ran out of advantage points, not sure how to prioritise them across these powers.
All feedback gratefully received!!!
They can all work. The most reliable one vs. big hitters w/o any other abilities supporting it is Defiance, but the one that can get by far the best overall mitigation is a pure-dodge based LR tank (though again, still possible- even if rarely w/ high dodge%- to get RNG'd to death by individual big hits that aren't dodged).
Ofc, abilities should not be compared in a vacuum. I'd assume to avoid defeat for any setup you take, you'll want at least one regular maintenance heal (BCR/RR, Conviction, Bionic Shielding), and 2 tank cds (or 1 tank cd and Ascension). If you stack enough cd reduction gear on top of that, you'll be hard to kill w/ any tank passive, as long as you use those cds and heals well. Of the mitigation cds, Masterful Dodge and Unbreakable are generally the best, while Resurgence or Ascension offer nice burst healing if you need a large hp recovery.
CC is another factor to consider (by that I mean stuns/knocks; holds aren't usually practical since you'll be breaking them w/ ur damage)- if you have room for it. Its not essential, but it can be nice to have. Some aoe options for that (not including aoe knockbacks since those can be disruptive, and you didn't want a knockback type anyways):
-For melee, Thunderclap is nice as an aoe stun that you can quickly throw out between ur regular aoe spells
-TK Maelstrom is powerful and a large aoe stun (though to hit heavy w/ it requires charging, and like TC has a cd)
-Brimstone is a powerful (though short-radius) melee aoe in itself, as well as a knockdown
-Tremor can also function as a regular (ranged) aoe spell and knock
-Fissure can knock down and stays on the ground as a patch (also gives a small heal w/ reconstruct)
-Iron and Vicious cyclone w/ vortex adv can clump up enemies by knocking them in
-Shadow embrace w/ dark displacement can knockdown in a cone and can apply fear (like the cyclone moves, dmg is low)
-Hurricane is a good overall (ranged) aoe that knocks at the end of its maintain
-Sparkstorm can knock enemies when close-up, and w/ the toggle adv can run in the background (if you have the energy for it)
-Avalanche is strong dmg (though costly) and has a chance to knockdown
-Lightning storm w/ stolen thunder can reliably knock on the 1st tick, and is similar to Avalanche otherwise.
-Not necc aoe, but Sonic device is an instant activation that can cause ur next spell to stun.
-Lead Tempest and Shuriken Storm don't have CC options, but can improve ur dodge while channeling w/ their advs
-Eye of the Storm is also CC-less, but is unique in giving you a damage shield that ramps up as you maintain it (though the dmg ramps down and isn't very high).
The Toggle choice is another big one. IDF is a mini dmg shield, but by taking it ur impairing ur damage and energy regeneration potential, and its one of the few toggles that you'll want to rank up. Its best w/ Defiance since that passive gives you lots of energy already, or for Supernatural builds that use Supernatural Power as the Energy Unlock (since they effectively don't have energy issues as long as they stick to SN attacks). It can work for the other builds too, ofc, but you may find urself energy starved more often (though using cheaper attacks and a good EU like MSA or thermal reverb can help).
Otherwise, I'd just pick the toggle that works best w/ most of the attacks you choose, since that will give you a good combo of energy return and added dmg- ie. Concentration for ranged w/ heavy Int or Ego, Form of the Tempest w/ Dex/crit based builds, Enrage w/ endorphin rush and Str w/ attacks that can knockdown or up, etc.
Assuming you have a short cd regular heal already, MSA is prob the best EU to pick up in general, though you'll want some Int gearing to supplement it. Otherwise, pairing Thermal Reverb w/ Flashfire and some Endurance gearing can work well too, as long as you get in the habit of using flashfire regularly. The rest of the EUs would be more specific, but could be very good if the criterion is met- ex. Hunter/Killer Instinct w/ a crit-heavy Archery_Muni build.
Con PSS is never a bad pick for a tanky build. Its main draw, imo, is the knock resist scaling from Con option; that's very handy for any type of tank- not just low-Str ones. Ofc, the tree also provides some general extra tanky boosts: more health, heals form crits, energy from being hit, extra defense, and/or dodge, and Con mastery is never a bad tanking pick. But yeah, the main reason is the knock resist.. though its even better if you have decent Dex for Adren Rush and Deflection.
Str PSS is a nice option if you are a melee heavy build that wants a good mix of extra dmg and defense- the latter mostly due to Juggernaut's +defense from Con, but Swole helps too. It grants high crit severity and cheaper melee attacks as well. Only downsides are its best left for melee builds only, and the extra mitigation from Juggernaut can be somewhat-to-greatly diminished by the +damage resist you already get if you have Defiance or Invuln as passives (since +DR and defense both share the same diminishing returns curve when it comes to final dmg mitigation).
Ego PSS is the ranged version of above- less overall defense since Force of Will doesn't scale as well as Juggernaut w/ Con, but it provides higher crit chance that is also generalized (so also works w/ melee and heals).
Int PSS is notable to tanks for one aspect: better scaling from (non-Int) stats. You get more HP per point of Con, more knock resist per Str, etc. Downsides are its lower crit/severity, and it doesn't offer as much in the way of mitigation boosts as some of the other options.
Pres would be an option for a pet/AoRP build, but I'd pass over that. Energy shouldn't be a sticking point so I'd also avoid the Rec or End trees generally (though they could work w/ certain builds for a tank).
Dex PSS would be problematic for a tank, if only cause the dodge-based options compete w/ Expose Weakness and Deadly Aim (the main reasons, imo, to take Dex, as its mostly a pure sustained dps tree). Neither of the tier 2 dodge talents give that much return, so ya mine as well stick w/ Con PSS in that case. Brush It Off is okay, but Elusive in Warden is similar, and much better.
If you wanted to go the LR/Dex/Dodge route (not a bad option), then I'd prob start w/ Con/Dex/Int (better w/ Concentration and/or MSA, and for the cd and cost reduction) or Con/Dex/Str (more knock resist, good for melee). Still prob a good idea to get some Rec or End on the side to help w/ energy (or for thermal reverb), but that's not always needed.
If you want to get the most benefit from the innate, non-SS boosts from Ego (ranged dmg), Str (melee dmg), or Pres (+healing) then take w/e one applies to a stat point of around 70- they diminish greatly after that.
Unbreakable is like a shield/bubble power in itself, and those can help keep you from getting interrupted while channeling as long as the shield isn't depleted- that's probably why mlmii could use Unbreakable in that fashion.
Palliate/absolve is a complete threat wipe and places you in stealth, so it can reset mobs (Evasive Maneuvers w/ sleight of mind can do this too, but its a 50% chance the threat wipe will work). However, if you time it wrong you'll still take dmg during the anim and the stealth can be broken, and if ur revealed while still too close to the enemies then they'll just re-aggro you. Its still not a complete failsafe, but it can be a last-ditch thing to hit if you've exhausted other options. I would suggest Rebirth if you wanted the ability to have a do-over, but you don't want to die in the first place.
hoo damn, that's enough commentary from me already. Can discuss things like power selection a bit more later. I'm throwing too much build obsessing out at once :X
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Master
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Agile
Level 12: Enduring
Level 15: Healthy Mind
Level 18: Coordinated
Level 21: Covert Ops Training
Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts (Toxin Overload)
Level 1: Infernal Blast
Level 6: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Phlebotomist, Accelerated Metabolism)
Level 8: Lightning Reflexes (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Epidemic (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Supernatural Power
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 20: Inertial Dampening Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Form of the Master (Storm's Eye Prana)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge (Rank 2)
Level 29: Parry (The Elusive Monk)
Level 32: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers (Sleight of Mind)
Level 38: Defile
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2)
Level 35: Flight
Specializations:
Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
Constitution: Fuel My Fire (1/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
Constitution: Armored (2/2)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Defensive Expertise (3/3)
Protector: Resolute (2/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Protector Mastery (1/1)
I'm still concerned that:
- not sure if SP, OD or MSA is the best fit (given I'm using Devouring Essence and Epidemic primarily for dps, both Supernatural Maintains)
- I have 2 form toggles, IDF and FOTM - but in hindsight I guess this is probably a waste. FOTM seems to synergise well with LR + BCR, but IDF seems to be important for damage mitigation in a LR build. Which to use? I can probably swap one out for another power (and free up 4-5 advantage points).
- I have no cc. I guess I could replace Epidemic with Vicious Cyclone or Hurricane; or switch out one of the form toggles or Defile for something else (Fissure?).
Any thoughts? Thanks again for all your help
Dex PSS is what Snake Wildlife recommends in his Ultimate Tanking Guide. It's a bit out of date -- back then PRE still affected threat management, for instance -- but his main reasons for taking DEX were the debuffs it offers and the greater frequency and severity of critical heals, both of which reasons would still be true. Deadly Aim, afterall, also increases healing severity. He ignores the dodge-based options altogether.
His build was able to tank 3 Shadow Collossuses (Collossi?) indefinitely, so it might be a good place to start for any "solo-the-game-and-never-die" build.
Here would be exactly the build he uses to do this. He makes his recommendations in a general way, so it takes a bit of work to put this together:
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Snake Wildlife Tank
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Presence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: Divinity
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Finesse
Level 12: Shrug It Off
Level 15: Agile
Level 18: Enduring
Level 21: Intimidating
Powers:
Level 1: Bestial Fury
Level 1: Frenzy (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Howl
Level 11: Ebon Void (Rank 2, Rank 3, Voracious Darkness)
Level 14: Defiance
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 23: Circle of Primal Dominion
Level 26: Miniaturization Drive (Rank 2, Reciprocating Gizmo)
Level 29: Inertial Dampening Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 35: Defile (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Ice Cage (Sub-Zero Cellblock)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Acrobatics (Rank 2)
Level 35: Teleportation
Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (2/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Exhausting Strikes (2/2)
Protector: Resolute (3/3)
Sentry: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Sentry: Precise (2/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (3/3)
Sentry: Fortify (2/2)
Mastery: Sentry Mastery (1/1)
Teleport on the other hand is a wonderful travel power but doesn't shed agro so you will still have mobs trying to follow you, when I was trying to use to as a "bug out" panic button, in the missions I would tend to get hung up on a wall or miss the doorway while trying to escape and in the open world would have mobs still trying to follow me UNLESS I ranked it up for the extra distance (which in turn made using it in missions more tricky).
I did like the ability to zip to each mob and be assured to get there first in Alerts however, just not enough to actually keep using Teleport.
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Eternal Champion
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Presence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Behemoth
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Impressive Physique
Level 12: Shrug It Off
Level 15: Energetic
Level 18: Lasting Impression
Level 21: Prodigy
Powers:
Level 1: Force Bolts (Energy Refraction)
Level 1: Cleave (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
Level 8: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Eye of the Storm (Rank 2, Blade Beyond the Veil, Accelerated Metabolism)
Level 17: Annihilate (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 20: Inertial Dampening Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Havoc Stomp (Cry Havoc, Challenging Strikes)
Level 26: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 29: Masterful Dodge
Level 32: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 35: Circle of Primal Dominion
Level 38: Miniaturization Drive (Reciprocating Gizmo)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation
Level 35: Athletics
Specializations:
Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
Strength: Quick Recovery (2/2)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Defensive Expertise (2/3)
Protector: Resolute (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Tenacious (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Warden Mastery (1/1)
So far it's face rolled from lvl 14 on up to and including groups of purple mobs from lvl 20 on. And that was with blue and green gear you get from random drops or quest rewards. It may not be the best, but so far it's been the best I've personally made.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Also very interesting about the Snake Wildlife build. With the changes in the game since that time, and my lack of need for threat generation, would INT or REC be a better secondary superstat than PRE?
If you are going the pure SN way, then yes SP is the best EU since its proc effectively has no cd. Only downside is you have to wait for the proc to use costly non-SN powers (though you don't really have any in that build), and sometimes you need to re-activate the SN attack you were channeling after a proc if the starting energy was low.
Gear for some Rec on the side to help w/ its energy return, but you should be gtg otherwise on the energy front w/ SP.
Depends. IDF will further shave off dodged hits and weak to moderate attacks, but won't do much to un-dodged big hitters as is- though those may be few and far enough between (and you also have a block, ofc). Taking IDF over another toggle will lower ur dmg overall, though.
My main LR tank uses a focus toggle, and mitigation wise he does fine- just needs some cd backup if RNG is bad, and to make sure to keep BCR running in the background. I'd say just use FotM w/ Storm's Eye Prana for now.
Again, CC is not needed, but it can be handy. It doesn't need to be aoe, but it can be nice to have just to interrupt enemy spell casts- for that something like Vile Lariat could work, or ice cage w/ adv. There's a ton of stuns or knock down/ups out there, though- any number of them could do the trick.
Here's how I'd tune ur latest build in terms of powers/adv:
Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Phlebotomist)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Lightning Reflexes (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Form of the Master (Storm's Eye Prana)
Level 14: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 17: Epidemic (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Resurgence (Rank 2, Evanescent Emergence)
Level 23: Defile (Rank 2)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge (or Unbreakable)
Level 29: Parry (The Elusive Monk)
Level 32: Condemn (Redemption Denied)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers (Sleight of Mind)
Level 38: Fire Snake (Trail Blazer)
(2 free adv points left over)
Stuck Condemn w/ adv in there as a small aoe knockdown you can tap if you want a quick interrupt (also because it was an SN power). Ur build was already complete before I added that, so you pretty much have 1-2 free power slots to use w/ w/e ya want. I stuck the Firesnake in there cause its a nice dmg boost to all ur elemental/toxic dmg while its up, but its completely optional.
Although Parry isn't a bad choice, elusive monk will only be in effect when using DE (though that may be when you need it most). Just wanted to make sure you knew of that.
Also, I'd prob not take Protector as a spec tree here, just cause you're best left staying in the Hybrid role when solo (main reason for Tank role atm is the threat gen boost- which you dun need; the health and DR bonuses are minor and def not worth the hit to dmg and healing vs. the Hybrid role) and Bulwark is doing nothing for you then. Vindicator w/ Aggressive stance, Rush of Battle heal, and its crit/severity increases is prob the better option here for a solo tank build. Protector mastery is nice, but ideally you won't ever really need it since ur cds will already be pretty low.
Pres as a SS is not really worthwhile for anyone that's not a committed healer and/or using an Aura, at least not after the stat changes. The additive +heal boost the stat provides can be mostly obtained by getting the stat to 70, which doesn't require SSing it at all. After that, due to the DR on the stat its better to get offense gear w/ +heal% bonuses if you want more healing.
--
Oh, I'm not saying Dex PSS is nonviable as a choice- just that its better for a pure dps build imo. Since crit severity can be taken in the Str and Ego trees, I'd suggest those first for a dps-tank since they are a more balanced mix for ranged or melee, and ones that don't need much Dex/Crit in themselves.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Also, he had a later build in that same thread that switched to Str PSS and fared better against Gravi- if you look a bit further down (though again, other factors at play there- namely raising his HP to 13.5k).
Even though its a tangent- If ur planning on tanking or soloing Gravi, knock resist becomes *very* important, so the Str-focused build would make more sense anyways.. at least it would make it less risky.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Thanks again :biggrin:
I'll certainly defer to your greater experience. I love reading your posts, flowcyto. Also, of course, all those "Ultimate" builds are not designed for levelling. I know this by painful experience.
I tried levelling a Snake Wildlife-style tank by solo play, and it was difficult. Once you got Inertial Dampening Field to pair with Defiance, you sure were tough, but it took a long time to solo places, and it required a lot of attention to keep up all those debuffs, and if you got sleepy or careless you could die. Then some AoE spamming machine would come through and clean up in half the time.
As for Monsterdaddy's build, it's strictly top-end. What you could apply to a levelling build, I suppose, is the power of Shred + Tiger's Bite + Reaper's Embrace, but there's no energy solution in that build for the levelling hero.
YES! There are so many cool builds. Constructing them is more than half the fun.
It seems like there are a lot of threads lately trying to build a hero whose chief feature is toughness for soloing. Here's a recent one focusing on telekinetic attacks: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=257791. Here's one focusing on fire/regen: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=262571.
I spent a lot of time in the Powerhouse (some say way too much time when I could have been levelling instead) and after trying a lot of builds ended up with Supernatural/Aura of Primal Majesty as the easiest to level with. She's up to 26 and is so strong relative to the missions she's doing that the game feels broken. The quests are all red to her and still even the supervillains aren't making a dent, even on Elite. Here's the build so far if you're curious here. AoPM with INT primary makes everything so easy -- all stats are 70+, so good energy management, high crit, low knockback, etc. Still to come goodies like Fire Snake and some Active Offenses and Defenses. I love the build so much but it's making the game almost boring -- and this is my first character, so the content is all new! -- and even so.
Yeah I know of it too, having leveled over 30 toons to 40 by now XD Energy and survivability in general can change dramatically w/ higher lvls of gear. Some builds just aren't really that viable at lower levels. Its why I usually try to post builds w/ a more logical leveling progression, even though I know many players just use lvl 40 retcons.
Fortunately, changing ur build half-way through leveling, from one that's more efficient at low lvls to one that can afford to go crazy later on, doesn't cost nearly as much as doing it at lvl 40.
And I may be that sort of player that comes in and mops everything up w/ AoE I tend to lvl w/ committed dps toons these days since solo lvling as an FF isn't that hard once you're experienced (unless you go quite out of ur way to make it so), and I'd just rather get through the content faster (plus being a glass-ish cannon is funner, at least in my book).
(thanks for the compliment btw, but I'm still not a vet to this community and by no means a guru- still learning some things as I go)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
My first one will be pretty much your suggestion flowcyto - I decided to swap Parry for Ebon Void in the end, I hadn't fully appreciated that Parry would be a bit limited in this build:
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Glacier
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Healthy Mind
Level 12: Coordinated
Level 15: Covert Ops Training
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 21: Physical Conditioning
Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Phlebotomist)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Lightning Reflexes (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Epidemic (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 17: Form of the Master (Storm's Eye Prana)
Level 20: Condemn (Redemption Denied)
Level 23: Resurgence (Rank 2, Evanescent Emergence)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge (Rank 2)
Level 29: Ebon Void (Voracious Darkness)
Level 32: Defile (Rank 2)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers (Sleight of Mind)
Level 38: Fire Snake (Trail Blazer)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2)
Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)
Specializations:
Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
Constitution: Fuel My Fire (1/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
Constitution: Armored (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Retribution (2/2)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (1/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (1/3)
Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
I'm mostly happy with this build, just a few final questions. In order of importance:
- Is there a better choice than INT for the third superstat? I seriously considered STR (for the knockback resist given your comment about soloing Gravitar flowcyto, plus the fact that I read somewhere FotM scales with STR as well as DEX??). In the end I decided not as I wasn't sure if I needed a stat to help with energy issues, and I do have some knockback resist with Resilient from the CON spec - but I'm still tempted. What do you think? (I also considered REC or END).
- Just realised that FoTM suffers from the same problem as Parry in this build - its damage bonus will apply only to DE (though I will get the energy gain and the synergy with BCR, which are maybe the real benefits here). I guess this means that I need to use DE as my primary attack wherever possible - against bosses anyway. Given that's the case, maybe I should switch Parry back in (and make STR that third superstat)? Or would it be better to choose powers that I can benefit from when using all my attack options - i.e. keep Ebon Void, and switch FotM out for IDF?
- Many build suggestions seem to include Acrobatics. Also, if Ooze Tunneling/Ninja Vanish give me a total aggro drop, I guess they provide an avoid-death card for dire situations (?), which would be high priority for me. Any thoughts on whether I should switch out one of my travel powers for one of these?
- Would Sentry be better than Guardian? (mainly thinking of Sentry Aura 6% damage resist)
- I put 2 adv points in Masterful Dodge Rank 2, + 1 each in the travel powers - is there a better place for these 4 points?
Thanks again!
If I remember right, your energy unlock of choice (Supernatural Power) scales with REC. So I would agree with switching INT for REC. You can get quite a bit of Cost Reduction and Cooldown Reduction through Utility gear and mods.
Melee forms (like FotM, Enrage) grant their full bonus to melee damage and half to ranged damage. Similar with the ranged forms (Concentration, Aspect of the Infernal) so FotM isn't totally wasted. I'm thinking that Aspect of the Infernal could be worthwhile, it builds Concentration stacks when you Poison a foe. It scales with EGO or INT though, so if you did that I'd reconsider what I said above about switching INT for REC.
Ebon Void with it's advantage is pretty spiffy. I've got it on a few builds. I think it's damage reduction buff would be more complimentary to your build than the few points of Dodge that Parry's advantage would give.
I think Acrobatics is a common choice because of it's advantage. Normally when you enter combat, your travel power drops down to it's slowest stage. The advantage on Acrobatics places a stacking buff on you each time you are hit which basically keeps your speed up in combat so you can easily run away if you need to.
The various Tunneling powers are nifty too. They also have a nice advantage that's probably useful for a tank. It'll give you a stacking buff that grants defense. Certainly worth considering. Tunnel up to your foes, pop up and start attacking with the buff.
People love the Guardian/Warden plus Vindicator combo in spec trees because of the blatant synergy between The Best Defense and Aggressive Stance. It can give you a big boost to your Offense and Defense stats. I'm not sure if the Sentry spec tree would be more worthwhile to you, as it's options favor support abilities. I'd probably favor sticking with Guardian.
I don't often rank up my active defense or active offense powers (Resurgence is one I would rank up, since that means more health healed). I do like to rank up travel powers though, since it means moving faster. I also tend to pick up advantages in travel powers that I find useful, such as the advantages I mentioned above for Acrobatics and Tunneling.
Thanks again![/QUOTE]
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Str vs. Int vs. Rec as a 2ndary SS is just up to you. More knock resist and dmg from DE vs. shorter cds vs. more energy from SP. You'll probably want to be putting most of ur gear/stat points to Con (for obv reasons) and Dex (for the toggle), so the 3rd choice isn't too consequential. If you wanted a middle ground I'd prob SS Int, but stat Str and Rec to 50-70 at lvl 40.
FotM is still a good toggle choice (as would be FotT). Concentration-granting toggles would likely take longer to stack in combat, and would mean you'd want to stat Int over Dex. Manipulator wouldn't work w/o stuns/holds; Compassion could work but scales w/ inconvenient stats for the build. For IDF.. well its all about just how much henchman dmg is bothering you. I imagine w/ a high-dodge build and BCR/RR and 2 tank cds you'd be fine in most AoE, but it may depend just how many mobs you try to pull and kill at once. I'd say just try FotM out in the field, and if groups of lesser mobs are still bugging ya, you could switch to IDF. Its still not very efficient vs. big hitters, though, and you won't be doing as much dmg w/ IDF.
Ebon Void is a good block choice, but to get the most out of its adv takes frequent blocking. You can change ur playstyle to revolve around stacking and refreshing 10x Voracious Darkness- you'll get very high DR as payoff, but you'll have to get used to its upkeep w/ blocking. Parry will work automatically w/ DE and meshes w/ being dodge-based, and has some dmg kick-back when blocking, but won't be active in AoE, and won't give the large benefit that stacking VD provides.
I guess I'd say if you block often, then Ebon Void w/ VD the best. If you don't want to block too regularly, then Parry w/ EM is a fine choice.
edit: cause I forgot what teir Adren Rush was in, opps ><
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Now to play the build!!! Thanks again, you guys have been great.
Go get em, tiger! show those gangs and shady organizations ur game-face!
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
If you are unsure if you'll be keeping a certain power or not, there's a neat little trick that could save you some Resources or Retrain tokens. Every time you level and will be adding a new power or spending advantage points, untrain the power you are unsure about keeping and rechoose it after picking the next power/advantage you were planning to take. This way you keep that power at the top of your list if you do decide to ditch it in favor of a new one. While this will cost you a little bit of Resources each time your training as you level up, it'll be a lot less overall then having to undo each choice above it if it's buried down the list.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I gave you Condemn when I was thinking of a similar spell's effect for a quick interrupt/KD. TK Burst w/ Sudden Impact is what I meant. Condemn's CC only works on full charge, so its not as useful as an interrupt.
Sorry about that ><
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Defiance any form u like and get 3+ healing ald have alot of health u will be fine..
Yeesh. Defensive passives are clearly clearly clearly the way to solo. I feel kind of dumb for not trying them out before.
So I'm replacing AoPM with a defensive passive, LR at the moment, but I'm also trying Invulnerability. My build still differs from merenkalion's by a fair bit because I'm using Aspect of the Infernal instead of a Focus form, relying heavily on Emerging Nightmares, etc. Basically looks like this. Like him, though, I've had difficulty picking out what PSS/SSS to use. Working on the assumption that I needed INT or EGO for my Concentration stacks, STR or CON PSS for knock resist, and CON SS or some beefy source of health, I've tried all of these in the Powerhouse:
The funny thing is, 5-man hard is TOO EASY to test the effective differences. With any of those I clean up without difficulty. I need a harder test to sort them out. I could try pulling 2 groups in the Powerhouse, but I'm thinking that "twice as hard" will be too difficult.
Some differences I DID notice were these:
CON/DEX/INT
- PROS: The 2% heal on crit really added up, requiring less BCR. Good crit % from DEX SSS.
- CONS: knock resist worse than with STR as a SS. I was flying everywhere.
STR/CON/INT- PROS: Defense was noticeably higher. Crit Severity was also high. Largest health pool with Swole and Con SSS.
- CONS: Crit % was in the bucket.
EGO/STR/CON- PROS: Crit % and severity were both good. Cheap Defiles -- can JUST fire a full-charge to open.
- CONS: Very few defensive advantages
END/STR/INTIs there anything super obvious that I'm missing? Or anything I'm missing that wouldn't be obvious in the Powerhouse at level 26? Or are these combos really just a matter of taste and not efficacy? Right now I'm leaning toward STR/CON/INT and gearing for crit % because I like the + defense and didn't like getting knocked around with CON PSS. On the other hand, I sure hate not being able to open with a full Defile -- but all the options that let me do that are squishier.
I suppose if I were using a Focus form I'd have even more versatility. I could try, for instance, STR/CON/DEX or END/STR/DEX or CON/DEX/REC. I'm inclined to keep my Concentration stacks, though, because when I've always gotten into trouble is at the beginning of the fight when there are goons everywhere. Once it's just me and the Super Villain, and I lock onto him with Devour Essence, I've never had a problem, even using Concentration stacks instead of Focus. Also Aspect of the Infernal applies stacks quicker than I can currently crit for Form of the Tempest, say.
Anyway, merenkalion, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Thanks to you and flowcyto and kallethen et. al. it's been one of the most useful threads I've read.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I would shy away from making sweeping statements such as 'defense passives are the best for solo' - again, mostly just depends on player goals, build synergy, content experience, and habits.
Anyways, since you mentioned that you disliked knocks a good deal, prob the best combo against that which still works w/ the build is either Con/Str/Dex (if using focus toggle) or Con/Str/Int (if using a concentration toggle). You'd be SSing Str to boost knock resist higher on top of Con PSS's Resilient. Ofc, those combos come w/ their own downsides, like the others (like lower crit w/ Con/Str/Int, not as easy on energy management w/ Con/Str/Dex, etc).
Keep in mind that getting knocked is %age chance based, so even w/ high resist you still have a chance at getting knocked. At that point the best anti-knock becomes having a strong block and knowing when to use it.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
That's good to know. It could have been that I just got unlucky with my knock-resist during my CON PSS fight, then.
That's possible, yes. To know a bit more quantitatively you could always compare/add up the knock resist values given in the tooltips for Str (on the char sheet) and Resilient for the diff setups and see what/if there's any major diff there. I wouldn't know off-hand how the knock resist scaling compares between the two w/o analyzing it in detail, but my guess would be they're similar.
Edit: just a quick check in-game before resting. Seems I was quite off on that last guess. Str is still stronger for knock resist per point over 2/2 Resilient w/ Con- about more than double the return (1:1% vs. 1:0.4%). Ofc, ya can't afford to stat that much Str in a tank build w/o an HP hit or a hit to the other SS, so take that for what ya will.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Last night I thought I had a great Eureka! moment, and tried INT/CON/STR. It filled so many of the holes in other combinations: Enlightened + Expertise was like a mini-AoPM. So this build had a Crit % as good as when I was SSing DEX -- that surprised me. It had great energy management! It had knock-resist! It had health! As an extra special bonus, it had 23% defense penetration! I went to sleep happy.
Sadly, what it didn't have was any extra defenses. STR as a PSS was giving about +10% damage resistance due to higher defense. CON as a PSS was giving 2% health on every crit. INT had neither of those, and so despite all its other advantages, just didn't perform as well in the Powerhouse. I cleared it a lot faster when I cleared it, but it was a lot easier to die. :-(
Would Crippling Coils function as an interrupt within Infernal? I haven't used Incapacitates before.
I suppose I should stop cluttering up poor merenkalion's thread. Maybe I'll dig up my old "toxic levelling build" thread, because I suspect I might have another thing or two to say between 26 and 40.
Makes sense for Int PSS- higher stat return and some -resist, but lower overall defenses.
All SS combos are going to have some downsides, since each option has some stark advantages to it that are somewhat unique.
It could, but the hold effect on incapacitates doesn't take effect until after the first sec of maintain, so though its a viable solo CC, its not really a fast one.
Considering how much ur stat and power/adv situation can change between 26 and 40, yeah that's prob a good idea
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
"undefeatable" PVE build-there is none, babysitting(post-release) devs are trolls, they WILL find a way to kill you, even if they have to cheat, it's what they're paid to do.
That said:
Presence somewhere, don't have to go nuts unless you want an actual healing power.
AORP++
IDF++(or just basic if you can't fit, it DOES effectively scale at normal rate w/AORP, and is really just another hot)
Support Role
Ebon Void/VorDark
Sentinel Aura
Support Drones++
Radiant Summoning/Unbound
If you can fumble your way to the block key once in a blue moon->Done
That will make every friendly in 50' a brick, and was pretty much required for the clowns in the old alerts. It's also a completely reasonable teammate requiring 0 active input aside from movement. It will also murder you DPS, and your DPS's great grandchildren, which is where you spend every remaining power in a futile attempt to compensate. It's also excruciatingly boring, which is why I came up with an IDF++/Offensive Passive/Ranged Damage alt spec for those times I don't have to babysit a group of mouthbreathers.
Warning: If you try something like this, then go back to a normal moar DPS crit crit crit build, expect frequent dirtnaps, as you will have forgotten the basics of not dying. Also note that Gravitar will still kill you, see note on devs and trolls above.
Also, do not attempt before level 20, 20 is where you get IDF and Sentinel, and you're even less than half a gimp before that.
Gear for superstats/REC, mod for dodge/crit. Try for max uptime on Force Sheathe/BCR. Big END pool, AoAP/Supernatural Power keep it topped up; just hose away indefinitely. This build is mostly geared for survivable solo DPS, although I've offtanked with it (those charged Defiles and channeled heals generate a lot of aggro) and in most Alerts you'll end up team healer (and your team will love you for it).
Stack/refresh poison with Infernal Blast, Condemn for AoE/CC, Defile for debuff/spike damage. Jet Pack fastest way to get around without a vehicle, Tunneling variants are magic for soloing instances and the Ooze versions are less graphics intensive for good refresh rate.
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Brenner
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Endurance (Secondary)
Level 15: Presence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: Divinity
Level 6: Boundless Reserves
Level 9: Shrug It Off
Level 12: Prodigy
Level 15: Acrobat
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 21: Shooter
Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Infernal Blast (Rank 2)
Level 6: Condemn (Rank 2, Redemption Denied)
Level 8: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Force Shield (Rank 2, Force Sheathe)
Level 14: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 17: Circle of Arcane Power (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Empathic Healing (Rank 2)
Level 23: Defile (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Aspect of the Infernal (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Supernatural Power
Level 32: Unbreakable
Level 35: Ice Sheath
Level 38: Planar Fracture (Double Vortex)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Jet Pack (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Inky Ooze Tunneling (Rank 2)
Specializations:
Constitution: Fuel My Fire (3/3)
Constitution: Tough (2/3)
Constitution: Quick Healing (3/3)
Constitution: Armored (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Locus (1/2)
Guardian: Make It Count (1/3)
Guardian: Tenacious (2/2)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Sentry: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Sentry: Precise (1/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (2/3)
Sentry: Fortify (1/2)
Sentry: Persevere (2/2)
Sentry: Reinforce (1/2)
Mastery: Sentry Mastery (1/1)
Believe it or not your best bet with a superman build is to very much mimic the last son of kryptons powers, or pick another infamous or famous comic character nigh unstoppable and do the same.
What I mean is identify what powers in the game are closest fitting to the powers of one of the legendary unstoppables of comicdom and do your best to create a build that blends them together.
One of my own best unstoppables was based on Death Stroke. He used invulnerability to mimic armor, BCR and Resurgence to represent his regeneration that while strong wasnt quite full on wolverine Regen. that simple combo, plus some solid attacks kept me alive through virtually all challenges.
If your after something less thematic, teleport is always a good thing to toss into your escape and evade to survive at all costs options. It actually doubles as one of the strongest survival tools in the game along with a fun travel power. Best stealth power to really for quickly cruising past trash to reach the objectives if speed is a need. Ive always favored the force shield block as its advantage to linger on you to some extent makes it one of the best all around choices imo.
Now that is all dated info, but I id wager that not much has changed to invalidate it.
In the end though superman builds usually always rise to the top when well forged.
Now I've always liked the idea of regen, big fan of having that constant "don't even have to think about it" heal. But it does seem to fall short when either being attacked by many or by a boss...solo of course. Tried defiance and it seemed to work really well on a previous old toon that was level 30 or so. But since returning to the game neither regen or defiance seem to be able to stand up to multiple mobs. Granted I am only level 13 right now, since my old toons seemed to all have been deleted in my absence...about 5 years. Have not tried invuln...but keep reading that although it practicaly negates mobs damage...it just isn't enough for bosses.
My original character was mainly savage...but I got tired of that and decided to try might instead.
I like melee toons and am essentially looking for help setting up a build that will allow me to be might and still be effective and survivable ( essentially, like the title of this thread, "undefeatable" solo pve build)
in terms of heals and at least for the current lvl of my toon, I've tried bionic shielding with defiance. I would love a mostly set it and forget it heal like regen or BS, BCR seems to be something like that, but is it as effective without a high dodge?
what are some suggestions you can give me to make this build a reality and do tell if what I want will only be possible at higher levels. Oh and at the moment I am freeform.
Regen or Invuln would be better passives for soloing in most cases. I imagine the backbone of any 'undefeatable' solo build will have one of those two passives, and R1 Masterful Dodge and R2-3 Unbreakable to cycle through. Stacking CD reduction on gear would be good to lower the cd of the ADs, and you'd want a backup smaller heal in case. 2 ADs will be excessive for the vast majority of solo content, but if ur into pulling rooms in liars or soloing Alert content or w/e, it could be up ur alley.
After that, it'll somewhat just come down to theme or what powersets ya want to use (or dun mind using). STR would be the obv PSS choice, but other PSS trees could work depending on the rest of the build and its attacks (and possibly the toggle/form used). Guardicator or Wardicator taken for the other specs as well- cause they work for practically any build. Can't really give more advice than that in general.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!