Holding Aggro

jonesing4 · February 2014

With the advent of more content that makes tanks necessary/fun to play, I've been wanting to level and build a new one.

Since it's also possible now to use any passive with any graphic, I wanted to branch out from Might/PA and make a magical-looking tank--Invuln, a sorcery aura, and attacks from one of the supernatural frameworks.

My main question is this: How easy is it to hold aggro if I build within one of those frameworks and spec like a tank? For instance, if I go Darkness, and my primary attacks are simply Shadow Embrace w/ CS and Shadow Blast w/ CC, will I be able to keep attention on myself? Or substitute Skarn's Bane & Eldritch Blast, same question.

Assume tank role, SS's CON/INT/REC, Concentration form.

It seems like I don't see many tanks from those frameworks, but I don't know if that's because those powers aren't good at it, if I'm not paying attention, or what. So, any insight into the problem would be helpful. If you've got a magic-themed tank of your own, would love to hear advice.

flowcyto · February 2014

It may be tough holding aggro using Shadow Blast w/ CC as ur primary single target attack, due to the low base dps on it (and most blasts). Generally maintains or combos are better sources of CC (DE would be the best/easiest of supernatural, but is melee- same w/ Shred; TK Assault is great too, though is a Mentalist power).

CS can be put on any decent aoe for a quick debuff applicant and a bit of threat, though- I'd say its a bit more flexible of a tool to work with than CC.

jonesing4 · February 2014

flowcyto wrote: »

It may be tough holding aggro using Shadow Blast w/ CC as ur primary single target attack, due to the low base dps on it (and most blasts). Generally maintains or combos are better sources of CC (DE would be the best/easiest of supernatural, but is melee- same w/ Shred; TK Assault is great too, though is a Mentalist power).

CS can be put on any decent aoe for a quick debuff applicant and a bit of threat, though- I'd say its a bit more flexible of a tool to work with than CC.

That was my fear; both of those blasts are really crummy DPS attacks. TK Assault is one I hadn't thought of, though, that could be a possibility for what I'm going for.

jennymachx · February 2014

You'd obviously want to go with Protector > Bulwark spec while staying in Hybrid role.

You don't need a CC power, be it ranged or melee, to have high damage for the CC's forced aggro on the enemy for it to work. Hitting an enemy with it will most assuredly draw its attention on you for a full 4 seconds before the 10 second debuff is applied, during which the forced aggro won't work for that specific enemy. You're free to use it on another enemy without the debuff applied though. That's the sole reason why you take a CC power: For the forced aggro and not mainly for threat-building.

After you've gotten the enemy's attention when CC's forced aggro is applied (Note: You can do it for multiple targets on the go), you should be focusing instead on your CS power to build up and eventually maintain those CS stacks so that you'll be at the highest threat level possible. CS is your main threat-builder. Typically you'd want a CS power that's either a ranged AoE or PBAoE to build up the stacks as quickly as possible.

If a teammate manages to steal the enemy's aggro away from you at any time, use your CC power again when the debuff timer has ended. Build up your CS stacks. Rinse. Repeat.

If you want to be an effective tank, you need to have at least one CC power and at least one CS power and rely on them both, not just one of them.

superalfgorn · February 2014

What about something like this?

EGO PSS for supercharged crits: you'll get some crit rating from the specs and talents, but you'll need to gear for it as well. CON and INT as SSS for hp and energy efficiency and faster recharges.

CC is on the maintain as pointed out above. CS is both on Skarn's Bane and on TK eruption.

Supplementary Threat (if you go for Tank Role, but see below), Knock Resistance and minor healing are supplied by the CoPD (this power is awesome).

Hybrid Role and Bulwark for dmg and threat. Additionally, Protector Mastery to get back your big heal often.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: MageTank

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Squall
Level 6: Covert Ops Training
Level 9: Survival Training
Level 12: Field Ops Training
Level 15: Shooter
Level 18: Acrobat
Level 21: Coordinated

Powers:
Level 1: Kinetic Darts
Level 1: Telekinetic Assault (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 6: Ego Reverberation
Level 8: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Concentration
Level 14: Ebon Void (Rank 2, Voracious Darkness)
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Circle of Primal Dominion (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Skarn's Bane (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 26: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 29: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 32: Telekinetic Eruption (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 35: Masterful Dodge
Level 38: Ascension

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:

Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Debilitating Challenge (2/2)
Protector: Exhausting Strikes (2/2)
Protector: Resolute (1/3)
Mastery: Protector Mastery (1/1)

jonesing4 · February 2014

superalfgorn wrote: »

What about something like this?

EGO PSS for supercharged crits: you'll get some crit rating from the specs and talents, but you'll need to gear for it as well. CON and INT as SSS for hp and energy efficiency and faster recharges.

CC is on the maintain as pointed out above. CS is both on Skarn's Bane and on TK eruption.

Supplementary Threat (if you go for Tank Role, but see below), Knock Resistance and minor healing are supplied by the CoPD (this power is awesome).

Hybrid Role and Bulwark for dmg and threat. Additionally, Protector Mastery to get back your big heal often.

Heh, CoPD was another reason I wanted to do this. It's such a good power, but didn't fit my other tanks' themes. I've only been able to use it to make squishes more survivable, but it is clearly a great pick for tanks.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: MageTank

This looks like a lot of fun, definitely. I guess my only worry goes back to the other end of the spectrum--this setup should hold aggro easily, but is it durable enough? I've never tanked without CON or STR primaries. On the other hand, EGO tree gives a good Defense boost, I've got Invuln, the Circle, and can still gear heavily for CON... Interesting build, thanks a lot for putting that together.

justicezer0 · March 2014

jennymachx wrote: »

That's the sole reason why you take a CC power: For the forced aggro and not mainly for threat-building.
After you've gotten the enemy's attention.. you should be focusing instead on your CS power to build up and eventually maintain those CS stacks so that you'll be at the highest threat level possible. CS is your main threat-builder. Typically you'd want a CS power that's either a ranged AoE or PBAoE to build up the stacks as quickly as possible.

This seems like some strange theorycraft here, as CC attacks also build threat. CS is usually on AOEs, and I can attest from experience that DPS can rip aggro off of a heavily CSed boss with ease. CS is mostly for distracting piles of minions, since they'll all be dead before the CS added threat is overcome anyways.

jennymachx · March 2014

justicezer0 wrote: »

This seems like some strange theorycraft here, as CC attacks also build threat. CS is usually on AOEs, and I can attest from experience that DPS can rip aggro off of a heavily CSed boss with ease. CS is mostly for distracting piles of minions, since they'll all be dead before the CS added threat is overcome anyways.

I didn't say that CC attacks didn't build threat. I said that it should not primarily be used for threat-building but more for forced-aggro, or taunt if you like. I only said that CS should be the threat mechanic that's used most often in conjunction with CC.

Yes, if the damage is massive enough, it can pull aggro off the boss from you if you're tanking. This is why you have CC to taunt the boss back into aggro'ing you. This is why you have both CC and CS to be an effective tank.

Take it from someone who has a dedicated tank and have little problems holding aggro, unless there's another tank in the team.

bravehoptoad · March 2014

Have you read the Guide to Threat Management thread? It's got some pretty good stuff.

The Myth: "I put CC on a Power with a cooldown, that way it has the Threat Gen over time while it's on cooldown"

The Truth: CC has absolutely no Threat-over-time mechanic.The Threat Increase applies to EACH TICK of the power, so it's best to put Crippling Challenge on a fast ticking power.

The Myth: "There's no point in spamming CC, because the description says it has a 10 second cooldown"

The Truth: Only the "taunt" aspect of CC that forces an enemy to target you has a cooldown. The damage debuff and +400 threat are applied every single tick.

The Myth: "CS ONLY works on powers that have a cooldown"

The Truth: This was true only up until Free to Play, when only Storm of Arrows and Torrent of Arrows had a cooldown, making them the only threat generating attacks at the time. But again, this was fixed for Free to Play, giving ALL powers that can take CS advantage to have the Threat-over-time Mechanic, and allowing additional uses of CS to refresh the Threat-over-Time timer.

The Myth: "CC will keep Baron Cimetiere from using his KILL-YOU!-Voodoo-Doll-Block"

The Truth: Absolutely True. Just be sure to apply CC at least every 10 seconds against him and you'll be fine. This is also true for VIPER Power Armor and Commanders, as well as Nemesi who make use of blocking.

The Myth: "The Threat from CC and CS do not stack"

The Truth: They actually do stack with eachother. Also, CS from Multiple power sources will stack with eachother. So it's actually adventageous to take multiple powers with CS. Also, CC powers are exclusive in activiation, so there is no way to stack it from multiple Power Sources, however, tick by tick, 400 Threat per tick does add up.

Or:

[bold]So whats the simple explanation? Thats Easy! When tanking, it's adventageous to put Challenging Strikes on multiple AOE powers, refreshing them every 10 seconds while spamming Crippling Challenge in between. [/bold]

I like that mage tank build that has layered CS. I never see that on tank builds lately.

rtma · March 2014

Problem I had in a Gravitar match playing as Gaia (Earth Tank) was using constant powers that hit then with CS and a CC while a Behemoth AT was holding Aggro all the time, frustrating and trivializing me... please explain why they were holding Aggro yet I was pretty much Ignored...

flowcyto · March 2014

rtma wrote: »

Problem I had in a Gravitar match playing as Gaia (Earth Tank) was using constant powers that hit then with CS and a CC while a Behemoth AT was holding Aggro all the time, frustrating and trivializing me... please explain why they were holding Aggro yet I was pretty much Ignored...

Well that one is easy- 2 main reasons; one specifically for Gravi:

1. He has Haymaker (50% dmg bonus when charged on knock immune targets- ie bosses) and Defense Combo (+threat on each attack, innately)- both very strong tanking/dps moves. Being Earth, you have no good equivalents in terms of dmg/threat. Ur best single-target dps attack (for ranged) is Cave-In (which is decent in itself, but is not a stand-out move), otherwise you'd have to rely on Onslaught in melee or Stone Shot in range for CC, and neither are really good options in light of Haymaker/DC. Upheaval is also rather weak in general.

(basically: the 'blame poor ability balance in general' reason)

2. Gravi's KM passive roughly halves all physical ranged damage automatically- but this high resistance does not apply to physical melee damage, so that is prob also lowering ur overall dmg (and thus threat) vs. that Behemoth player. Unfortunately, you can't remove that passive anymore, so physical ranged dmg users just gotta deal with it.

Holding Aggro

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