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AOE Damage Cap

r9xchaosr9xchaos Posts: 533
edited March 2014 in Suggestions Box
I wondered about this earlier but why dont we add dmg that fades off instead of a 5 targets cap`?


i mean ... it would be more logical to have AOE wich deal less dmg based on the distance fromt he center of power...


i made a picture of what i mean since im not easy with words sometimes...


unbenannt_1_by_r9xchaos-d79mfm4.jpg


In the middle of the power area you get 5 damage and the more far youre away from it the less dmg you get... instead of for example: You attack 6 enemies and only 5 get dmg ..okay? how he avoids getting dmg ? :D


With my model all mobs are affected withng radius but only them in center get lots dmg .. we also could do this forvehicles instead of enrfing the cap down ..=P
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • viivsyn2viivsyn2 Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    i agree with OP here

    there really shouldn't be a target limit on an AoE like epidemic.. its a poison cloud after all
    and does make sense for the outta area to do less damage not less targets

    think nuclear bomb.. if one goes off anything too close to it takes so much damage and anything on the fallout area takes less damage (or damage over time)
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  • r9xchaosr9xchaos Posts: 533
    edited March 2014
    Yeah good example.
  • agentnx5agentnx5 Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Damage caps on player AoE's are an antiquated "feature" that needs to be eliminated as a whole.

    I've been saying that for about a year, and I standby my opinion still.

    Afterall, vehicles aren't generally penalized for this, and Tier 4 / Ultimate powers aren't limited either.



    PS: Also Force Cascade is a kind of a weak example, a better example would be Tier 3 raw-offense powers that currently suck compared to their counter parts in other sets, devices, or vehicle weapons: Conflagration, Lightning Storm, and Avalanche. Considering they only a small 15 ft radius, 50 ft range, and self-root (forcing the user to stand still while maintaining, which works for the animations, but is quite the penalty in fast-paced combat you find in teams), this would be an easy example of AoEs that could be buffed up to make them equivalently competitive with other AoEs, which encourages choice. Strafing Run and Unleashed Rage shouldn't be the only options to maximize on AoE damage that takes out a horde of enemies at once.

    PPS: Don't tell me it can't happen for server reasons, the server handles mass Gravity Pulser vehicle weapons and Incendary Rounds flooding combat logs rapidly with no detrimental effect on latency or choke. The technical "excuse" is bollocks, because we've seen it do more with no ill effects. In the recent Lemurian Invasion event, literally hundreds of damage hits in a matter of seconds, and nearly 50 death animations triggering almost simultaneously while the entire screen is flooded with bright strobes. I ain't buying the excuses, and neither should the rest of you. This is simply something that is a left-over from years ago when this game first came out, an old model based on bandwidth limitations that used to be.
  • r9xchaosr9xchaos Posts: 533
    edited March 2014
    agentnx5 wrote: »

    PS: Also Force Cascade is a kind of a weak example,


    im sorry i used cascade as example because its one power i use (( i only have 1 freeform and cant change my powers alot ))
  • scorpagorscorpagor Posts: 607 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Doesn't Lead Tempest already work like this?

    But I agree, this should be the general way in which AoEs work.
  • lilsteffielilsteffie Posts: 598 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I agree to this, its always been kinda weird to me that aoes like epidemic only effect a certain amount of targets..

    BTW the picture helped me understand better. Good visuals are good.:biggrin:
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    That Force Cascade diagram misrepresents the power itself. It's not a cone AoE; it's cylindrical (in a line). The fact that it's a cylinder AoE can be considered a drawback and I don't see a need to reduce the damage done for enemies not caught dead-center.

    I've always viewed sphere AoEs as having the ripple effect when it comes to how they deal damage when it comes to AoEs like Force Eruption, so I don't really agree with them dealing lesser damage for enemies caught in the furthest regions within the blast, though I do see the logic behind it. Also, I don't agree with that logic applying for a sphere AoE like Shuriken Storm or Lead Tempest because of, you know, Newton's first law of motion. In Lead Tempest's case there's also something called an effective range when it comes to firearms.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Afterall, vehicles aren't generally penalized for this, and Tier 4 / Ultimate powers aren't limited either.
    Well not to burst your bubble they do work like this. Their limit is just higher, in the case of Ultimates 10 targets. And vehicles are going down to 5 from 10 soon.
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  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,812 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2014
    Target caps exist to prevent players from being able to consume large groups of mobs too quickly. Gravity Pulse was dropped to 5 targets because people were rolling in on open missions (Bloodmoon in this case) and destroying everything in seconds.

    They need to exist to prevent that sort of behavior.


    I do think NPC target caps should be lifted, however.
  • chemkchemk Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    To the OP. This is a great idea!
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  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    kaizerin wrote: »
    Target caps exist to prevent players from being able to consume large groups of mobs too quickly.

    It was slightly before my time in CoH but you could herd an entire map to one spot for AoE insta-nukage before that game got target caps.

    Incarnate steam rollers were boring enough, I can't imagine standing around until the tank gathered up the entire map being and blowing your long cooldowns at once all that engaging of game play.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It was slightly before my time in CoH but you could herd an entire map to one spot for AoE insta-nukage before that game got target caps.

    Incarnate steam rollers were boring enough, I can't imagine standing around until the tank gathered up the entire map being and blowing your long cooldowns at once all that engaging of game play.

    Considering how many people think that playing an AE sorceress or druid for instant steamrolls is fun and exciting in Diablo 2, people seem to have antiquated ideas of what fun is. Shooting fish in a barrel is entertaining to some I guess, but then again so is watching paint dry evidently. What the OP is suggesting probably is not possible with the engine as it is, and I seriously doubt it's going to change anytime soon.
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,223 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think the target cap system they have in place works okay. I'm still against the selective multi-target dmg penalties only a few aoes get, though- namely for SMG Burst- since they are the exception rather than the rule, and for no great reason. If the system was all/most like that, then okay... but not if ur just going to single-out a few spells with it, imo.
    agentnx5 wrote: »

    PS: Also Force Cascade is a kind of a weak example, a better example would be Tier 3 raw-offense powers that currently suck compared to their counter parts in other sets, devices, or vehicle weapons: Conflagration, Lightning Storm, and Avalanche.

    You've mentioned this before, and it intrigues me. The three aoes you mentioned are already of the highest base dps for aoe maintains in the game (non-vehicle, ofc). It wouldn't make sense to buff their range as is- unless they took a base dps hit, and/or if you are for buffing dozens of other (weaker) aoes as well.
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    kaizerin wrote: »
    Target caps exist to prevent players from being able to consume large groups of mobs too quickly. Gravity Pulse was dropped to 5 targets because people were rolling in on open missions (Bloodmoon in this case) and destroying everything in seconds.

    They need to exist to prevent that sort of behavior.


    I do think NPC target caps should be lifted, however.

    Totally agreed with Kaizerin. A team of 5 can already take on 25-50 mobs at once. Meanwhile NPC target caps especially in large events allow many players to simply ignore attacks.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    Yes yes, we should all just bow down and accept that you know what is best for us and fun is something that is static and must be dictated to us all by you and only you.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Yes, because being dictated by you what my fun should be is exactly how the game should be. Really, before you start throwing stones maybe you should check the glass house you live in.
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  • kentekokenteko Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I really need to point out that the era in CoH of Dumpster Puppies and its lack of fun is largely different then target caps/anti herding and what they're built to represent.

    Target caps exist as a bandaid to prevent something like Dumpster Puppies from happening in CO (gathering up a herd, dragging them to a dumpster, then letting players destroy them). What it also does is force a specific method to doing things for maximum efficiency and doesn't do a thing to prevent herding. It also causes some level of hate issues for certain AOEs and in certain (rare) situations.

    As an example, in Therakiel's Temple some group sizes range from 5-8 which creates a very unrealistic situation for the tank who either needs a 10 sized AOE or the healer who's likely going to get spillover aggro. Removing target caps or raising them to 10 or higher or even adding ripple effects would go a long way into raising QoL.

    I would like to see the ripple effect here added or done up to give a sort of diminishing returns on targets hit instead of anything else. In addition to this, have some sort of removal/raising of the target cap for the ease/purpose of making things a little better off in a QoL situation. This, along with CS, will go a very long way into leveling hate out and then making AOE feel more impactful without actually making it so.

    To put it into a bit more clear terms, imagine if five targets was "normal" damage then the next five are 50%, with the next five after that being 50% less, and so on. Every target would have numbers going over them, sure, but only a specific amount would be taking the optimal damage and so on.
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,444 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    If they remove the target cap on AoEs, you'll have to accept that the only way to balance that is to lower damage based on the number of targets hit by it. If you have 10 or more targets involved, you're damage should be practically non existent.

    Don't change the target cap on players.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,223 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    kenteko wrote: »
    As an example, in Therakiel's Temple some group sizes range from 5-8 which creates a very unrealistic situation for the tank who either needs a 10 sized AOE or the healer who's likely going to get spillover aggro. Removing target caps or raising them to 10 or higher or even adding ripple effects would go a long way into raising QoL.

    I would like to see the ripple effect here added or done up to give a sort of diminishing returns on targets hit instead of anything else. In addition to this, have some sort of removal/raising of the target cap for the ease/purpose of making things a little better off in a QoL situation. This, along with CS, will go a very long way into leveling hate out and then making AOE feel more impactful without actually making it so.

    To put it into a bit more clear terms, imagine if five targets was "normal" damage then the next five are 50%, with the next five after that being 50% less, and so on. Every target would have numbers going over them, sure, but only a specific amount would be taking the optimal damage and so on.

    They could make CS apply its threat to a higher target cap than the AoE itself allows, w/o changing how the damage cap part of it works. It would upset balance potentially much less since the game's aoe dmg is currently 'balanced' around the (usually 5-target) cap.
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  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I can see both sides of the issue.

    It can seem odd for a foe standing in the area of your Fireball to be completely unharmed because there are too many others in the area.

    on the other hand I remember a time when it was possible to defeat with a single attack as many foes as you could pull, and even all but one-shot bosses in the area at the same time.

    I wont say that AoE cap is the best solution, but it is a workable one.

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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited March 2014
    AoE target cap is here for the sake of playability.

    Would it be nice to not have it? Maybe.
    But then, another measures would be needed to prevent players from clearing everything in one go (and even then, target cap isn't too much of a prevention, maintains also can be tap-spammed between ticks).

    So, for now it's sufficient as it is.

    Majority of regular mobs can't even survive a few ticks of AoE damage. If not target caps they'd be even less threatening than they are now. And click/charge AoEs with potential for one-shooting entire crowds, well... No. Just no.

    Tough adds in the group oriented content? Well, that's where group play comes in handy. Either few AoE's at once, or someone holding their attention until they're cleared.
  • kentekokenteko Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    AoE target cap is here for the sake of playability.

    Would it be nice to not have it? Maybe.
    But then, another measures would be needed to prevent players from clearing everything in one go (and even then, target cap isn't too much of a prevention, maintains also can be tap-spammed between ticks).

    So, for now it's sufficient as it is.

    Majority of regular mobs can't even survive a few ticks of AoE damage. If not target caps they'd be even less threatening than they are now. And click/charge AoEs with potential for one-shooting entire crowds, well... No. Just no.

    Tough adds in the group oriented content? Well, that's where group play comes in handy. Either few AoE's at once, or someone holding their attention until they're cleared.

    The problem is that click/charge AOEs are notably inferior to Maintains for the reason of target caps and many of the tough adds in group oriented content do not fall over in a stiff wind. It's very upsetting from a tank's perspective when they jump into a group, charge an AOE (lost aggro), maintain an AOE (can't hit everything, lost aggro) or the game decides that the squishy DPS is going to target a separate five targets then what the tank hits.

    No amount of group play will really be able to help a healer ripping hate on a Bottono and nothing else then getting banished as a Congo walks over and gibs a DPS. Or a tank moving to gather a singular group of New Shadows only to have half of them arbitrarily run off to another room when Sentinel Aura ticks and the other half fan out over other groups and aggro them. This is seen time and time again even in alerts when one of the bosses (let's just say Kevin Poe) backflips into another add group, pushing it over five and sending aggro everywhere.
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